Re: [U2] Graph DataBase
Hi, On the nosql website MultiValue is classed as Soft NoSQL because it did not rise out of a web 2.0 need. Perhaps if people working on web 2.0 technologies had heard of U2 at the time, U2 would now already be the primary web 2.0 backend and few of these newer databases would have arisen. (Apologies for fantasizing!). For reasons discussed n times on these forums, we know why the above didn't happen. People thought this model did not exist, because they had never heard of Pick, U2, MV call it what you will. There are ample opportunities for the vendors and vars to spread the word about U2 in the NoSQL world, but to do this I think they need to be willing to go out to the conferences and make presentations on U2 and where possible supply the audience with real world examples of websites (and where possible web 2.0) websites running on a U2 backend. Also if anyone would like to share references to any websites with me I would be happy to pass them on to my NoSQL contacts here in Germany. There is nothing better than real world examples! The question is, which multivalue vendors are even interested or willing to attend the NoSQL conferences. There are numerous conferences taking place in 2012 which someone from Rocket or one of the VAR's could attend to share the message about U2. If you want to be heard of you need to get out to these events and tell people about U2. Even if vendors or vars do not want to present at these events then we as individuals can attend and chat with people on an informal basis about U2. But I really want to see Rocket representatives at these events presenting U2. I already know when and where some of these events will be taking place (at least on the europe side of the water) so if anyone from Rocket is reading, get in touch with me for more info. Regards Glenn Am 18.12.2011 00:17, schrieb Tony Gravagno: From: Laura Hirsh ... Most importantly, does i model allow a company to focus on, and increase the bottom line of their business. It really shouldn't be about one technology vs another. Laura hit it on the head. There's all of this rhetoric about where MV is best positioned. But even outside of the NoSQL ecosystem, other databases are just out there evangelizing their platform. While people in the MV market try to figure out if MV fits a specific NoSQL niche definition, there's still no marketing outside of the already established base. If people don't see MV anywhere but on a NoSQL web page, it's going to be regarded as just another unworthy curiosity - the way any of us would gloss over a NoSQL database that we've never heard of. If the MV DBMS vendors just put the platform out there, we won't need to worry about where it fits; people will categorize it where they see fit. That's the way real grassroots movements like NoSQL work, a concept largely forgotten in this community. And while I give the DBMS vendors grief about lack of marketing, this community is as guilty of it as they are. Grassroots, a concept that used to be closely associated with us, means it comes from the community, not just the vendor upline. T ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Graph DataBase
I think another reason u2 was not used as a web2 DB was the lack of language bindings. Sure no one had heard or it, but no one had heard of mongo - but people chose to use ruby, or python, and looked to see what DB they could use behind that. -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Glenn Sallis Sent: 18 December 2011 11:03 To: U2 Users List Subject: Re: [U2] Graph DataBase Hi, On the nosql website MultiValue is classed as Soft NoSQL because it did not rise out of a web 2.0 need. Perhaps if people working on web 2.0 technologies had heard of U2 at the time, U2 would now already be the primary web 2.0 backend and few of these newer databases would have arisen. (Apologies for fantasizing!). For reasons discussed n times on these forums, we know why the above didn't happen. People thought this model did not exist, because they had never heard of Pick, U2, MV call it what you will. There are ample opportunities for the vendors and vars to spread the word about U2 in the NoSQL world, but to do this I think they need to be willing to go out to the conferences and make presentations on U2 and where possible supply the audience with real world examples of websites (and where possible web 2.0) websites running on a U2 backend. Also if anyone would like to share references to any websites with me I would be happy to pass them on to my NoSQL contacts here in Germany. There is nothing better than real world examples! The question is, which multivalue vendors are even interested or willing to attend the NoSQL conferences. There are numerous conferences taking place in 2012 which someone from Rocket or one of the VAR's could attend to share the message about U2. If you want to be heard of you need to get out to these events and tell people about U2. Even if vendors or vars do not want to present at these events then we as individuals can attend and chat with people on an informal basis about U2. But I really want to see Rocket representatives at these events presenting U2. I already know when and where some of these events will be taking place (at least on the europe side of the water) so if anyone from Rocket is reading, get in touch with me for more info. Regards Glenn Am 18.12.2011 00:17, schrieb Tony Gravagno: From: Laura Hirsh ... Most importantly, does i model allow a company to focus on, and increase the bottom line of their business. It really shouldn't be about one technology vs another. Laura hit it on the head. There's all of this rhetoric about where MV is best positioned. But even outside of the NoSQL ecosystem, other databases are just out there evangelizing their platform. While people in the MV market try to figure out if MV fits a specific NoSQL niche definition, there's still no marketing outside of the already established base. If people don't see MV anywhere but on a NoSQL web page, it's going to be regarded as just another unworthy curiosity - the way any of us would gloss over a NoSQL database that we've never heard of. If the MV DBMS vendors just put the platform out there, we won't need to worry about where it fits; people will categorize it where they see fit. That's the way real grassroots movements like NoSQL work, a concept largely forgotten in this community. And while I give the DBMS vendors grief about lack of marketing, this community is as guilty of it as they are. Grassroots, a concept that used to be closely associated with us, means it comes from the community, not just the vendor upline. T ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 10.0.1415 / Virus Database: 2108/4087 - Release Date: 12/17/11 ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Graph DataBase
Scaling means more than just 'can it cope with so many million hits per minute', it is about the ability to easily scale upwards and downwards according to demand. Sure I can get a big box with 32 processors 128 gig of ram etc and it will perform impressively, but what if the business plan is to double demand for the next three months - will that cost me half a million for another massive box? Typical 'scalable' databases can be clustered or sharded across multiple low spec machines, so scaling up requires the addition of 5 or 10 new commodity servers into the cluster. Both the technology built into the database, and their licencing schemes make this a very easy operation. Running multiple u2 servers in read write formation is very difficult and expensive -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of David Jordan Sent: 17 December 2011 05:40 To: U2 Users List Subject: Re: [U2] Graph DataBase I have to pick you up on scaling. U2 scales really well there are some staggering performance test that have been done. U2 does things differently, but it does scale. An area that NOSQL databases are not demonstrating in what I have looked at, is the transactional processing and security that a commercial database requires. It is not to say that Rocket does not have some work to do in some areas, but I don't get that something new is the be all and end all and that something that is mature is outdated. I like to try and get the best out of both. David Jordan -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of DavidJMurray (mvdbs.com) Sent: Saturday, 17 December 2011 1:38 PM To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Subject: Re: [U2] Graph DataBase I also, to some extent, agree with Dawn. The mv, NF**2, post relational, PICK, or whatever the correct model name is, it is not a relational database. There are very strict definitions to a relational database, namely, but not complete, normalisation, SQL, joins etc. Yes, the mv model can emulate a relational database. But, it you throw away the dict part of a file, the data is actually in a form of a document. And, if you go way back to the definition of a database model created for analysis - Entity-Relationship by Chen in the early 1980's, the mv model is very close to the ER model. So, if you add back the dictionaries, the database model could be a DDERDBMS - Dictionary Driven Entity-Relationship Data Base Management System. Anyway, whatever mongoDB classify themselves as, so should the PICK model. But then, U2 is not that well known, as it is not marketed to end users per se. It is an embedded database for VAR's. The focus is on the application, not the underlying database. This could be seen as a problem in some markets. So, it could be seen to be lost energy promoting the database to end users or developers within the nosql market as U2 is not open source, hence costs money, does not scale that well (sharding and/or federation) and is not really for high volume loads within a web service delivery environment. It's a good solid product for well established actively-promoted vertical market applications which need to extend to the surrounding I.T. ecosystem. Dawn Wolthuis wrote: I do disagree with this. If neo4j meets the not-determined criteria (except by marketing departments) then MV products do too. MV vendors might have suggested they are relational at varying points in their history (again marketing depts) but they do not meet Relational or at least SQL-only DBMS criteria. We are very much in the not-SQL-only camp whether we proclaim it or not. No product in that mix does everything. I put Tom del's nodal logo on a blog entry in 2006. It is someone in the MV space that has the nodal domains. We are NoSQL, no doubt, but we can decide to stay in our MV sandbox rather than joining the game if we so choose. --dawn - Learn and Do Excel and Share http://mvdbs.com http://mvdbs.com -- View this message in context: http://old.nabble.com/Graph-DataBase-tp32982649p32989774.html Sent from the U2 - Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 10.0.1415 / Virus Database: 2108/4084 - Release Date: 12/16/11 ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Graph DataBase
There is a dozen ways to achieve the same types of scalability. Moving to a cloud environment, I am dealing with vm machines where the vm machine can be increased and reduced In memory and disk by software, not hardware. It changes the thinking again. There are techniques to spread U2 databases across multiple machines. The issue is also a question of what is the bottleneck, read/write or the transformation process. With U2 you could run multiple servers with multiple web servers handling the transaction process, that then sends data to another server for read/write. But the other issues are the handling of transaction controls, rollback recover, backup. I believe that the next few years with cloud computing, people are going to have to change the way they think about systems design. No one has a magic answer even the new NOSQL databases. I think software design and techniques are more critical than having a database to automate the process through techniques like sharding. The issue with licensing, Rocket is already working on providing alternative methods of licensing. If there is a different way you want to do licensing, talk to them, they may be able to find a solution to accommodate or they may look at new licensing techniques. The question to ask, would you be happy to have your banking transactions run on some of these NOSQL Databases, would they pass scrutiny of regulators and auditors for disaster recovery, security, etc. These are the areas that are concerning mean, not the technology. David Jordan -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Symeon Breen Sent: Monday, 19 December 2011 12:11 AM To: 'U2 Users List' Subject: Re: [U2] Graph DataBase Scaling means more than just 'can it cope with so many million hits per minute', it is about the ability to easily scale upwards and downwards according to demand. Sure I can get a big box with 32 processors 128 gig of ram etc and it will perform impressively, but what if the business plan is to double demand for the next three months - will that cost me half a million for another massive box? Typical 'scalable' databases can be clustered or sharded across multiple low spec machines, so scaling up requires the addition of 5 or 10 new commodity servers into the cluster. Both the technology built into the database, and their licencing schemes make this a very easy operation. Running multiple u2 servers in read write formation is very difficult and expensive -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of David Jordan Sent: 17 December 2011 05:40 To: U2 Users List Subject: Re: [U2] Graph DataBase I have to pick you up on scaling. U2 scales really well there are some staggering performance test that have been done. U2 does things differently, but it does scale. An area that NOSQL databases are not demonstrating in what I have looked at, is the transactional processing and security that a commercial database requires. It is not to say that Rocket does not have some work to do in some areas, but I don't get that something new is the be all and end all and that something that is mature is outdated. I like to try and get the best out of both. David Jordan -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of DavidJMurray (mvdbs.com) Sent: Saturday, 17 December 2011 1:38 PM To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Subject: Re: [U2] Graph DataBase I also, to some extent, agree with Dawn. The mv, NF**2, post relational, PICK, or whatever the correct model name is, it is not a relational database. There are very strict definitions to a relational database, namely, but not complete, normalisation, SQL, joins etc. Yes, the mv model can emulate a relational database. But, it you throw away the dict part of a file, the data is actually in a form of a document. And, if you go way back to the definition of a database model created for analysis - Entity-Relationship by Chen in the early 1980's, the mv model is very close to the ER model. So, if you add back the dictionaries, the database model could be a DDERDBMS - Dictionary Driven Entity-Relationship Data Base Management System. Anyway, whatever mongoDB classify themselves as, so should the PICK model. But then, U2 is not that well known, as it is not marketed to end users per se. It is an embedded database for VAR's. The focus is on the application, not the underlying database. This could be seen as a problem in some markets. So, it could be seen to be lost energy promoting the database to end users or developers within the nosql market as U2 is not open source, hence costs money, does not scale that well (sharding and/or federation) and is not really for high volume loads within a web service delivery
Re: [U2] Graph DataBase
Where noSQL falls down. Could you reprint this invoice for me? noSQL: Oh gee, reprinting is an application issue, I'll have to write some code to allow that, it may take 2 to 4 hours with testing. Pick; Sure we've been doing that for 30 years. Give me a minute. -Original Message- From: David Jordan da...@dacono.com.au To: U2 Users List u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Sent: Fri, Dec 16, 2011 9:41 pm Subject: Re: [U2] Graph DataBase I have to pick you up on scaling. U2 scales really well there are some staggering performance test that have been done. U2 does things differently, but it does scale. An area that NOSQL databases are not demonstrating in what I have looked at, is the transactional processing and security that a commercial database requires. It is not to say that Rocket does not have some work to do in some areas, but I don't get that something new is the be all and end all and that something that is mature is outdated. I like to try and get the best out of both. David Jordan -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of DavidJMurray (mvdbs.com) Sent: Saturday, 17 December 2011 1:38 PM To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Subject: Re: [U2] Graph DataBase I also, to some extent, agree with Dawn. The mv, NF**2, post relational, PICK, or whatever the correct model name is, it is not a relational database. There are very strict definitions to a relational database, namely, but not complete, normalisation, SQL, joins etc. Yes, the mv model can emulate a relational database. But, it you throw away the dict part of a file, the data is actually in a form of a document. And, if you go way back to the definition of a database model created for analysis - Entity-Relationship by Chen in the early 1980's, the mv model is very close to the ER model. So, if you add back the dictionaries, the database model could be a DDERDBMS - Dictionary Driven Entity-Relationship Data Base Management System. Anyway, whatever mongoDB classify themselves as, so should the PICK model. But then, U2 is not that well known, as it is not marketed to end users per se. It is an embedded database for VAR's. The focus is on the application, not the underlying database. This could be seen as a problem in some markets. So, it could be seen to be lost energy promoting the database to end users or developers within the nosql market as U2 is not open source, hence costs money, does not scale that well (sharding and/or federation) and is not really for high volume loads within a web service delivery environment. It's a good solid product for well established actively-promoted vertical market applications which need to extend to the surrounding I.T. ecosystem. Dawn Wolthuis wrote: I do disagree with this. If neo4j meets the not-determined criteria (except by marketing departments) then MV products do too. MV vendors might have suggested they are relational at varying points in their history (again marketing depts) but they do not meet Relational or at least SQL-only DBMS criteria. We are very much in the not-SQL-only camp whether we proclaim it or not. No product in that mix does everything. I put Tom del's nodal logo on a blog entry in 2006. It is someone in the MV space that has the nodal domains. We are NoSQL, no doubt, but we can decide to stay in our MV sandbox rather than joining the game if we so choose. --dawn - Learn and Do Excel and Share http://mvdbs.com http://mvdbs.com -- View this message in context: http://old.nabble.com/Graph-DataBase-tp32982649p32989774.html Sent from the U2 - Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Graph DataBase
Regarding scaling, the MV DBMS I use advertises as highly scalable. Even if typical partitioning is not by sharding there are many ways in which databases can scale. People looking for non-SQL-only DBMS tools will have many and varied requirements --dawn Typed on a mobile keyboard On Dec 16, 2011, at 8:37 PM, DavidJMurray (mvdbs.com) nab...@mvdbs.com wrote: I also, to some extent, agree with Dawn. The mv, NF**2, post relational, PICK, or whatever the correct model name is, it is not a relational database. There are very strict definitions to a relational database, namely, but not complete, normalisation, SQL, joins etc. Yes, the mv model can emulate a relational database. But, it you throw away the dict part of a file, the data is actually in a form of a document. And, if you go way back to the definition of a database model created for analysis - Entity-Relationship by Chen in the early 1980's, the mv model is very close to the ER model. So, if you add back the dictionaries, the database model could be a DDERDBMS - Dictionary Driven Entity-Relationship Data Base Management System. Anyway, whatever mongoDB classify themselves as, so should the PICK model. But then, U2 is not that well known, as it is not marketed to end users per se. It is an embedded database for VAR's. The focus is on the application, not the underlying database. This could be seen as a problem in some markets. So, it could be seen to be lost energy promoting the database to end users or developers within the nosql market as U2 is not open source, hence costs money, does not scale that well (sharding and/or federation) and is not really for high volume loads within a web service delivery environment. It's a good solid product for well established actively-promoted vertical market applications which need to extend to the surrounding I.T. ecosystem. Dawn Wolthuis wrote: I do disagree with this. If neo4j meets the not-determined criteria (except by marketing departments) then MV products do too. MV vendors might have suggested they are relational at varying points in their history (again marketing depts) but they do not meet Relational or at least SQL-only DBMS criteria. We are very much in the not-SQL-only camp whether we proclaim it or not. No product in that mix does everything. I put Tom del's nodal logo on a blog entry in 2006. It is someone in the MV space that has the nodal domains. We are NoSQL, no doubt, but we can decide to stay in our MV sandbox rather than joining the game if we so choose. --dawn - Learn and Do Excel and Share http://mvdbs.com http://mvdbs.com -- View this message in context: http://old.nabble.com/Graph-DataBase-tp32982649p32989771.html Sent from the U2 - Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Graph DataBase
Comments below... -Original Message- From: DavidJMurray (mvdbs.com) [nab...@mvdbs.com] Date: 12/16/2011 09:37 PM To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Subject: Re: [U2] Graph DataBase I also, to some extent, agree with Dawn. The mv, NF**2, post relational, PICK, or whatever the correct model name is, it is not a relational database. There are very strict definitions to a relational database, namely, but not complete, normalisation, SQL, joins etc. parts snipped From the horse's mouth - IE, Codd and Date themselves, relational is a MODEL. There are not STRICT definitions. The current and widespread interpretation is different from the intentions set out way back when by those designing the model. CD also acknowledged that the relational model was not (and is not) perfect. And I quote... Pick is the best implementation of what the relational model tried to accomplish - Dr. Nathan Goodman, VP Codd and Date International. And yes, I have met with Codd, Date and Goodman on this very issue. This argument reminds me of those interpreting an artist's paintings... this was painted during so-n-so's blue period... he was distraught and depressed... you can tell this from his choice of colors. Well, maybe the artist just ran out of red paint... or perhaps, the artist took advantage of a fire sale at the corner DIY art supply store. In the Pick/U2/MV model, we're mainly dealing with business applications. As such, the more relevant questions shouldn't revolve around relational, but instead does x model allow an application to perform well, adjust easily to a company's changing needs, provide a robust, performant, and easy to maintain environment, etc. Most importantly, does i model allow a company to focus on, and increase the bottom line of their business. It really shouldn't be about one technology vs another. -Laura ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Graph DataBase
In your quote from Dr Goodman, for what exact source are you quoting. I would like to include that quote with a link in one on articles. ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Graph DataBase
Hi Laura, I agree 100%. I think many have lost sight of the fact that customers don't care what their software runs on, or what it's written in, just whether it solves their business problems. Have a wonderful Christmas! Charlie Noah Charles W. Noah Associates cwn...@comcast.net http://www.linkedin.com/in/charlienoah The views and opinions expressed herein are my own (Charlie Noah) and do not necessarily reflect the views, positions or policies of any of my former, current or future employers, employees, clients, friends, enemies or anyone else who might take exception to them. On 12-17-2011 12:09 PM, Laura Hirsh wrote: Comments below... -Original Message- From: DavidJMurray (mvdbs.com) [nab...@mvdbs.com] Date: 12/16/2011 09:37 PM To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Subject: Re: [U2] Graph DataBase I also, to some extent, agree with Dawn. The mv, NF**2, post relational, PICK, or whatever the correct model name is, it is not a relational database. There are very strict definitions to a relational database, namely, but not complete, normalisation, SQL, joins etc. parts snipped From the horse's mouth - IE, Codd and Date themselves, relational is a MODEL. There are not STRICT definitions. The current and widespread interpretation is different from the intentions set out way back when by those designing the model. CD also acknowledged that the relational model was not (and is not) perfect. And I quote... Pick is the best implementation of what the relational model tried to accomplish - Dr. Nathan Goodman, VP Codd and Date International. And yes, I have met with Codd, Date and Goodman on this very issue. This argument reminds me of those interpreting an artist's paintings... this was painted during so-n-so's blue period... he was distraught and depressed... you can tell this from his choice of colors. Well, maybe the artist just ran out of red paint... or perhaps, the artist took advantage of a fire sale at the corner DIY art supply store. In the Pick/U2/MV model, we're mainly dealing with business applications. As such, the more relevant questions shouldn't revolve around relational, but instead does x model allow an application to perform well, adjust easily to a company's changing needs, provide a robust, performant, and easy to maintain environment, etc. Most importantly, does i model allow a company to focus on, and increase the bottom line of their business. It really shouldn't be about one technology vs another. -Laura ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Graph DataBase
From: Laura Hirsh ... Most importantly, does i model allow a company to focus on, and increase the bottom line of their business. It really shouldn't be about one technology vs another. Laura hit it on the head. There's all of this rhetoric about where MV is best positioned. But even outside of the NoSQL ecosystem, other databases are just out there evangelizing their platform. While people in the MV market try to figure out if MV fits a specific NoSQL niche definition, there's still no marketing outside of the already established base. If people don't see MV anywhere but on a NoSQL web page, it's going to be regarded as just another unworthy curiosity - the way any of us would gloss over a NoSQL database that we've never heard of. If the MV DBMS vendors just put the platform out there, we won't need to worry about where it fits; people will categorize it where they see fit. That's the way real grassroots movements like NoSQL work, a concept largely forgotten in this community. And while I give the DBMS vendors grief about lack of marketing, this community is as guilty of it as they are. Grassroots, a concept that used to be closely associated with us, means it comes from the community, not just the vendor upline. T ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Graph DataBase
Hi One MV vendor suggested that we collectively try to occupy NoSQL and see if we can make a place for MV within the greater NoSQL (Not Only SQL) community. Most of the MV DBMS vendors are on the list at nosql-database.org. Whilst there would appear to be some similarities with NoSQL databases, I think it is important that the MV community does not appear to be be a desperate hanger-on to this movement, in the hope of gaining some attention and coverage otherwise we won't be taken seriously. Statements like We have been doing this since the 70's (not sure where I have heard this, but I have) isn't going to win any credo really, other than making us look desperate for recoginition. MV is not mentioned in any of the NoSQL books out there because it is not a non-relational Web 2.0 database. It is a relational (tables have relationships with one-another) non-normalised database. Of course, there are structural similarities, so I suppose they can be described as soft NoSQL databases at a push. As frustrating as it is, if the vendors aren't going to market their products and shout out to the industry about how fantastic their products are then it will be difficult to convince people at a NoSQL meeting about something they have never heard of. Very, very frustrating I know. Glenn Am 16.12.2011 02:13, schrieb Dawn Wolthuis: Good idea to attend. Although I have some probably-not-great reasons (so I'll keep them to myself) for not having a lot of respect for Neo4J even without touching it, I think it is a really good idea to visit some of the many various NoSQL events when they are in your neck of the woods (they are unlikely to be in my area). One MV vendor suggested that we collectively try to occupy NoSQL and see if we can make a place for MV within the greater NoSQL (Not Only SQL) community. Most of the MV DBMS vendors are on the list at nosql-database.org . Have fun, Bill, and let us know what you think. --dawn On Thu, Dec 15, 2011 at 9:46 AM, Bill Brutzmanbi...@hkmetalcraft.comwrote: I expect that the topic is of interest to U2 programmers. I plan to attend. NYJavaSIG, What: Neo4J - High Performance NoSQL Graph Database Who: Peter Bell - CTO - Skinnio When: WEDNESDAY, Dec 21, 2011 - 6:30pm-8:00pm (refreshments 6:00-6:30pm) Where: Credit Suisse 1 Madison Ave (bet 23rd/24th St), Main Floor ( http://g.co/maps/dxpnf) REGISTER: http://www.javasig.com/meeting/show/57--- YOU MUST REGISTER! or http://www.meetup.com/JavaSIG/events/44515732/ YOU MUST REGISTER! The world is a graph - and Neo4J can help you to interact with it. In this presentation we'll look at the strengths and weaknesses of graph databases and the kinds of use cases that they fit for. We'll then briefly look at graph based queries and how to get the best of both world using the cross store persistence capabilities of Spring Data. Neo4J is an open source project available from neo4j.org and available as an AMI on AWS. Thanks to Credit Suisse for hosting *and* the food and refreshments! Thanks to JetBrains for Two Free IntelliJ licenses to give away! See everyone on Wed night for our last monthly meeting of the year. Happy Holidays! Frank G. ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Graph DataBase
I do disagree with this. If neo4j meets the not-determined criteria (except by marketing departments) then MV products do too. MV vendors might have suggested they are relational at varying points in their history (again marketing depts) but they do not meet Relational or at least SQL-only DBMS criteria. We are very much in the not-SQL-only camp whether we proclaim it or not. No product in that mix does everything. I put Tom del's nodal logo on a blog entry in 2006. It is someone in the MV space that has the nodal domains. We are NoSQL, no doubt, but we can decide to stay in our MV sandbox rather than joining the game if we so choose. --dawn Typed on a mobile keyboard On Dec 16, 2011, at 7:34 AM, Glenn Sallis u...@glennsallis.de wrote: Hi One MV vendor suggested that we collectively try to occupy NoSQL and see if we can make a place for MV within the greater NoSQL (Not Only SQL) community. Most of the MV DBMS vendors are on the list at nosql-database.org. Whilst there would appear to be some similarities with NoSQL databases, I think it is important that the MV community does not appear to be be a desperate hanger-on to this movement, in the hope of gaining some attention and coverage otherwise we won't be taken seriously. Statements like We have been doing this since the 70's (not sure where I have heard this, but I have) isn't going to win any credo really, other than making us look desperate for recoginition. MV is not mentioned in any of the NoSQL books out there because it is not a non-relational Web 2.0 database. It is a relational (tables have relationships with one-another) non-normalised database. Of course, there are structural similarities, so I suppose they can be described as soft NoSQL databases at a push. As frustrating as it is, if the vendors aren't going to market their products and shout out to the industry about how fantastic their products are then it will be difficult to convince people at a NoSQL meeting about something they have never heard of. Very, very frustrating I know. Glenn Am 16.12.2011 02:13, schrieb Dawn Wolthuis: Good idea to attend. Although I have some probably-not-great reasons (so I'll keep them to myself) for not having a lot of respect for Neo4J even without touching it, I think it is a really good idea to visit some of the many various NoSQL events when they are in your neck of the woods (they are unlikely to be in my area). One MV vendor suggested that we collectively try to occupy NoSQL and see if we can make a place for MV within the greater NoSQL (Not Only SQL) community. Most of the MV DBMS vendors are on the list at nosql-database.org . Have fun, Bill, and let us know what you think. --dawn On Thu, Dec 15, 2011 at 9:46 AM, Bill Brutzmanbi...@hkmetalcraft.comwrote: I expect that the topic is of interest to U2 programmers. I plan to attend. NYJavaSIG, What: Neo4J - High Performance NoSQL Graph Database Who: Peter Bell - CTO - Skinnio When: WEDNESDAY, Dec 21, 2011 - 6:30pm-8:00pm (refreshments 6:00-6:30pm) Where: Credit Suisse 1 Madison Ave (bet 23rd/24th St), Main Floor ( http://g.co/maps/dxpnf) REGISTER: http://www.javasig.com/meeting/show/57--- YOU MUST REGISTER! or http://www.meetup.com/JavaSIG/events/44515732/ YOU MUST REGISTER! The world is a graph - and Neo4J can help you to interact with it. In this presentation we'll look at the strengths and weaknesses of graph databases and the kinds of use cases that they fit for. We'll then briefly look at graph based queries and how to get the best of both world using the cross store persistence capabilities of Spring Data. Neo4J is an open source project available from neo4j.org and available as an AMI on AWS. Thanks to Credit Suisse for hosting *and* the food and refreshments! Thanks to JetBrains for Two Free IntelliJ licenses to give away! See everyone on Wed night for our last monthly meeting of the year. Happy Holidays! Frank G. ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Graph DataBase
I also, to some extent, agree with Dawn. The mv, NF**2, post relational, PICK, or whatever the correct model name is, it is not a relational database. There are very strict definitions to a relational database, namely, but not complete, normalisation, SQL, joins etc. Yes, the mv model can emulate a relational database. But, it you throw away the dict part of a file, the data is actually in a form of a document. And, if you go way back to the definition of a database model created for analysis - Entity-Relationship by Chen in the early 1980's, the mv model is very close to the ER model. So, if you add back the dictionaries, the database model could be a DDERDBMS - Dictionary Driven Entity-Relationship Data Base Management System. Anyway, whatever mongoDB classify themselves as, so should the PICK model. But then, U2 is not that well known, as it is not marketed to end users per se. It is an embedded database for VAR's. The focus is on the application, not the underlying database. This could be seen as a problem in some markets. So, it could be seen to be lost energy promoting the database to end users or developers within the nosql market as U2 is not open source, hence costs money, does not scale that well (sharding and/or federation) and is not really for high volume loads within a web service delivery environment. It's a good solid product for well established actively-promoted vertical market applications which need to extend to the surrounding I.T. ecosystem. Dawn Wolthuis wrote: I do disagree with this. If neo4j meets the not-determined criteria (except by marketing departments) then MV products do too. MV vendors might have suggested they are relational at varying points in their history (again marketing depts) but they do not meet Relational or at least SQL-only DBMS criteria. We are very much in the not-SQL-only camp whether we proclaim it or not. No product in that mix does everything. I put Tom del's nodal logo on a blog entry in 2006. It is someone in the MV space that has the nodal domains. We are NoSQL, no doubt, but we can decide to stay in our MV sandbox rather than joining the game if we so choose. --dawn - Learn and Do Excel and Share http://mvdbs.com http://mvdbs.com -- View this message in context: http://old.nabble.com/Graph-DataBase-tp32982649p32989771.html Sent from the U2 - Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Graph DataBase
I also, to some extent, agree with Dawn. The mv, NF**2, post relational, PICK, or whatever the correct model name is, it is not a relational database. There are very strict definitions to a relational database, namely, but not complete, normalisation, SQL, joins etc. Yes, the mv model can emulate a relational database. But, it you throw away the dict part of a file, the data is actually in a form of a document. And, if you go way back to the definition of a database model created for analysis - Entity-Relationship by Chen in the early 1980's, the mv model is very close to the ER model. So, if you add back the dictionaries, the database model could be a DDERDBMS - Dictionary Driven Entity-Relationship Data Base Management System. Anyway, whatever mongoDB classify themselves as, so should the PICK model. But then, U2 is not that well known, as it is not marketed to end users per se. It is an embedded database for VAR's. The focus is on the application, not the underlying database. This could be seen as a problem in some markets. So, it could be seen to be lost energy promoting the database to end users or developers within the nosql market as U2 is not open source, hence costs money, does not scale that well (sharding and/or federation) and is not really for high volume loads within a web service delivery environment. It's a good solid product for well established actively-promoted vertical market applications which need to extend to the surrounding I.T. ecosystem. Dawn Wolthuis wrote: I do disagree with this. If neo4j meets the not-determined criteria (except by marketing departments) then MV products do too. MV vendors might have suggested they are relational at varying points in their history (again marketing depts) but they do not meet Relational or at least SQL-only DBMS criteria. We are very much in the not-SQL-only camp whether we proclaim it or not. No product in that mix does everything. I put Tom del's nodal logo on a blog entry in 2006. It is someone in the MV space that has the nodal domains. We are NoSQL, no doubt, but we can decide to stay in our MV sandbox rather than joining the game if we so choose. --dawn - Learn and Do Excel and Share http://mvdbs.com http://mvdbs.com -- View this message in context: http://old.nabble.com/Graph-DataBase-tp32982649p32989774.html Sent from the U2 - Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Graph DataBase
I have to pick you up on scaling. U2 scales really well there are some staggering performance test that have been done. U2 does things differently, but it does scale. An area that NOSQL databases are not demonstrating in what I have looked at, is the transactional processing and security that a commercial database requires. It is not to say that Rocket does not have some work to do in some areas, but I don't get that something new is the be all and end all and that something that is mature is outdated. I like to try and get the best out of both. David Jordan -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of DavidJMurray (mvdbs.com) Sent: Saturday, 17 December 2011 1:38 PM To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Subject: Re: [U2] Graph DataBase I also, to some extent, agree with Dawn. The mv, NF**2, post relational, PICK, or whatever the correct model name is, it is not a relational database. There are very strict definitions to a relational database, namely, but not complete, normalisation, SQL, joins etc. Yes, the mv model can emulate a relational database. But, it you throw away the dict part of a file, the data is actually in a form of a document. And, if you go way back to the definition of a database model created for analysis - Entity-Relationship by Chen in the early 1980's, the mv model is very close to the ER model. So, if you add back the dictionaries, the database model could be a DDERDBMS - Dictionary Driven Entity-Relationship Data Base Management System. Anyway, whatever mongoDB classify themselves as, so should the PICK model. But then, U2 is not that well known, as it is not marketed to end users per se. It is an embedded database for VAR's. The focus is on the application, not the underlying database. This could be seen as a problem in some markets. So, it could be seen to be lost energy promoting the database to end users or developers within the nosql market as U2 is not open source, hence costs money, does not scale that well (sharding and/or federation) and is not really for high volume loads within a web service delivery environment. It's a good solid product for well established actively-promoted vertical market applications which need to extend to the surrounding I.T. ecosystem. Dawn Wolthuis wrote: I do disagree with this. If neo4j meets the not-determined criteria (except by marketing departments) then MV products do too. MV vendors might have suggested they are relational at varying points in their history (again marketing depts) but they do not meet Relational or at least SQL-only DBMS criteria. We are very much in the not-SQL-only camp whether we proclaim it or not. No product in that mix does everything. I put Tom del's nodal logo on a blog entry in 2006. It is someone in the MV space that has the nodal domains. We are NoSQL, no doubt, but we can decide to stay in our MV sandbox rather than joining the game if we so choose. --dawn - Learn and Do Excel and Share http://mvdbs.com http://mvdbs.com -- View this message in context: http://old.nabble.com/Graph-DataBase-tp32982649p32989774.html Sent from the U2 - Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
[U2] Graph DataBase
I expect that the topic is of interest to U2 programmers. I plan to attend. NYJavaSIG, What: Neo4J - High Performance NoSQL Graph Database Who: Peter Bell - CTO - Skinnio When: WEDNESDAY, Dec 21, 2011 - 6:30pm-8:00pm (refreshments 6:00-6:30pm) Where: Credit Suisse 1 Madison Ave (bet 23rd/24th St), Main Floor (http://g.co/maps/dxpnf) REGISTER: http://www.javasig.com/meeting/show/57 --- YOU MUST REGISTER! or http://www.meetup.com/JavaSIG/events/44515732/ YOU MUST REGISTER! The world is a graph - and Neo4J can help you to interact with it. In this presentation we'll look at the strengths and weaknesses of graph databases and the kinds of use cases that they fit for. We'll then briefly look at graph based queries and how to get the best of both world using the cross store persistence capabilities of Spring Data. Neo4J is an open source project available from neo4j.org and available as an AMI on AWS. Thanks to Credit Suisse for hosting *and* the food and refreshments! Thanks to JetBrains for Two Free IntelliJ licenses to give away! See everyone on Wed night for our last monthly meeting of the year. Happy Holidays! Frank G. ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Graph DataBase
Good idea to attend. Although I have some probably-not-great reasons (so I'll keep them to myself) for not having a lot of respect for Neo4J even without touching it, I think it is a really good idea to visit some of the many various NoSQL events when they are in your neck of the woods (they are unlikely to be in my area). One MV vendor suggested that we collectively try to occupy NoSQL and see if we can make a place for MV within the greater NoSQL (Not Only SQL) community. Most of the MV DBMS vendors are on the list at nosql-database.org . Have fun, Bill, and let us know what you think. --dawn On Thu, Dec 15, 2011 at 9:46 AM, Bill Brutzman bi...@hkmetalcraft.comwrote: I expect that the topic is of interest to U2 programmers. I plan to attend. NYJavaSIG, What: Neo4J - High Performance NoSQL Graph Database Who: Peter Bell - CTO - Skinnio When: WEDNESDAY, Dec 21, 2011 - 6:30pm-8:00pm (refreshments 6:00-6:30pm) Where: Credit Suisse 1 Madison Ave (bet 23rd/24th St), Main Floor ( http://g.co/maps/dxpnf) REGISTER: http://www.javasig.com/meeting/show/57 --- YOU MUST REGISTER! or http://www.meetup.com/JavaSIG/events/44515732/ YOU MUST REGISTER! The world is a graph - and Neo4J can help you to interact with it. In this presentation we'll look at the strengths and weaknesses of graph databases and the kinds of use cases that they fit for. We'll then briefly look at graph based queries and how to get the best of both world using the cross store persistence capabilities of Spring Data. Neo4J is an open source project available from neo4j.org and available as an AMI on AWS. Thanks to Credit Suisse for hosting *and* the food and refreshments! Thanks to JetBrains for Two Free IntelliJ licenses to give away! See everyone on Wed night for our last monthly meeting of the year. Happy Holidays! Frank G. ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users -- Dawn M. Wolthuis Take and give some delight today ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
