Substitute for Mouse in Ubuntu?
Your message cannot be delivered to the following recipients: Recipient address: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reason: Illegal host/domain name found email message attachment Forwarded Message Hello, all, Is there any way to control the mouse via the keyboard? I seem to remember an earlier release had a mousekeys feature, but I haven't seen it on 6.10. There are some programs that I run that do kind of need me to move the pointer a bit. Also, is there a way to collapse a single Thanks, Terrence Reporting-MTA: dns;msgmmp-1.gci.net (tcp-daemon) Original-recipient: rfc822;ubuntu-accessibility@lists.ubuntu.org Final-recipient: rfc822;ubuntu-accessibility@lists.ubuntu.org Action: failed Status: 5.4.4 (Illegal host/domain name found) -- Ubuntu-accessibility mailing list Ubuntu-accessibility@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-accessibility
Re: Substitute for Mouse in Ubuntu?
Is there any way to control the mouse via the keyboard? I seem to remember an earlier release had a mousekeys feature, but I haven't seen it on 6.10. There are some programs that I run that do kind of need me to move the pointer a bit. Also, is there a way to collapse a single Hello, Look at System-Preferences-Keyboard-Accessibility-Mouse Keys should provide what you are looking for. Francesco -- Ubuntu-accessibility mailing list Ubuntu-accessibility@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-accessibility
Re: Orca on laptops.
Luke Yelavich wrote: ... In Windows, Jaws manages to prevent the capslock key from being latched or unlatched. To latch/unlatch, you press shift + Capslock, or press capslock twice quickly. I see. I expect that would be a hazardous and/or fragile thing to attempt on X, especially if, as I believe, the latching behavior is a hardware feature on some (most?) keyboards. On Windows you could circumvent this by meddling with the keyboard drivers, but I think we want to avoid getting that intrusive. So we should probably consider CapsLock to be an always-latching key, IMO. Bill -- Ubuntu-accessibility mailing list Ubuntu-accessibility@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-accessibility
Re: Orca on laptops.
On 11/8/06, Bill Haneman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Luke Yelavich wrote: ... In Windows, Jaws manages to prevent the capslock key from being latched or unlatched. To latch/unlatch, you press shift + Capslock, or press capslock twice quickly. I see. I expect that would be a hazardous and/or fragile thing to attempt on X, especially if, as I believe, the latching behavior is a hardware feature on some (most?) keyboards. On Windows you could circumvent this by meddling with the keyboard drivers, but I think we want to avoid getting that intrusive. So we should probably consider CapsLock to be an always-latching key, IMO. I thought the Gnome Keyboard preferences already allowed one to make CapsLock a simple modifier key for entering special characters? When this is done, is it still latching? -- Benjamin Hawkes-Lewis -- Ubuntu-accessibility mailing list Ubuntu-accessibility@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-accessibility
Re: Orca on laptops.
Bill Haneman: I see. I expect that would be a hazardous and/or fragile thing to attempt on X, especially if, as I believe, the latching behavior is a hardware feature on some (most?) keyboards. Hello, I'm using CapsLock as another Ctrl key. It is configurable through Gnome keyboard properties dialog (before it was there I used a modified xkb layout to achieve that). Without any deeper knowledge, I'd assume that this is not a hardware feature, when one is able to remap the key easily. Just a hint... Best regards, Tomas. -- Ubuntu-accessibility mailing list Ubuntu-accessibility@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-accessibility
Re: Orca on laptops.
Benjamin Hawkes-Lewis wrote: On 11/8/06, Bill Haneman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Luke Yelavich wrote: ... In Windows, Jaws manages to prevent the capslock key from being latched or unlatched. To latch/unlatch, you press shift + Capslock, or press capslock twice quickly. I see. I expect that would be a hazardous and/or fragile thing to attempt on X, especially if, as I believe, the latching behavior is a hardware feature on some (most?) keyboards. On Windows you could circumvent this by meddling with the keyboard drivers, but I think we want to avoid getting that intrusive. So we should probably consider CapsLock to be an always-latching key, IMO. I thought the Gnome Keyboard preferences already allowed one to make CapsLock a simple modifier key for entering special characters? When this is done, is it still latching? I don't see that option in the preferences dialog - you can indeed alter the way CapsLock works, and whether the Shift key cancels CapsLock or not, but it seems to be a latching key in all cases, as far as I can tell. regards Bill -- Benjamin Hawkes-Lewis ___ gnome-accessibility-list mailing list gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list -- Ubuntu-accessibility mailing list Ubuntu-accessibility@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-accessibility
Re: Orca on laptops.
Tomas Cerha wrote: Bill Haneman: I see. I expect that would be a hazardous and/or fragile thing to attempt on X, especially if, as I believe, the latching behavior is a hardware feature on some (most?) keyboards. Hello, I'm using CapsLock as another Ctrl key. It is configurable through Gnome keyboard properties dialog (before it was there I used a modified xkb layout to achieve that). Without any deeper knowledge, I'd assume that this is not a hardware feature, when one is able to remap the key easily. Just a hint... Best regards, Tomas. Hi Tomas: Thanks for that bit of info. If you can configure CapsLock to emit Control instead, then I agree it's probably not latched in hardware. That said, modifying the xkb map is a somewhat intrusive technique - we may wish to do something that intrusive, but it does introduce complexities that could make testing and support more difficult. It would IMO be nicer if we could work with most XKB default key maps rather than having to modify them in order to achieve our desired behavior. XKB does give some pretty powerful APIs for modifying key behaviors, via the XkbKeyAction model I think. regards Bill regards Bill ___ gnome-accessibility-list mailing list gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list -- Ubuntu-accessibility mailing list Ubuntu-accessibility@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-accessibility
Re: Orca on laptops.
Bill Haneman wrote: I don't see that option in the preferences dialog - you can indeed alter the way CapsLock works, and whether the Shift key cancels CapsLock or not, but it seems to be a latching key in all cases, as far as I can tell. You can make it a Ctrl in Ctrl key position - Make CapsLoct an additional Crtl. And it is a regular - non-latching Ctrl key. Take care, Tomas. -- Ubuntu-accessibility mailing list Ubuntu-accessibility@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-accessibility
Re: Orca on laptops.
On 11/8/06, Bill Haneman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I don't see that option in the preferences dialog - you can indeed alter the way CapsLock works, and whether the Shift key cancels CapsLock or not, but it seems to be a latching key in all cases, as far as I can tell. Just tested it on my Ubuntu Edgy box, and as far I can tell you're mistaken. In Keyboard preferences, look for the Layout Options, then Compose key position. Now I have a British Thinkpad keyboard. If I tick Right alt is compose then pressing [AltGr] + ['] (that's apostrophe) then [e] outputs an e acute. But let's say I tick Caps Lock is Compose. Now two things happen. First Caps Lock no longer affects capitalization. And second, it acts just like [AltGr] before. If I press [Caps Lock] + ['] then [e], it outputs an e acute. But pressing [Caps Lock] then ['] then [e] outputs an apostrophe then a normal e. Doesn't that imply it is no longer latching? -- Benjamin Hawkes-Lewis -- Ubuntu-accessibility mailing list Ubuntu-accessibility@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-accessibility
Re: Orca on laptops.
Tomas Cerha writes (Re: Orca on laptops.):
Hello, I'm using CapsLock as another Ctrl key. It is configurable
through Gnome keyboard properties dialog (before it was there I used a
modified xkb layout to achieve that). Without any deeper knowledge, I'd
assume that this is not a hardware feature, when one is able to remap
the key easily. Just a hint... Best regards, Tomas.
Indeed, The caps lock key can easily be remapped. I for example use it
as another Control key, because it is more easily reachable than the
one in the bottom left corner of the keyboard. There are plenty of
HowTos on the web that explain how to remap this key both under X and
the Linux console. The locking behaviour is therefore certainly not a
property of the hardware. CapsLock is just like any other key.
The AltGr key is not suitable as a general modifier key for orca on
many international keyboard layouts. It is needed on some layouts to
type characters as common as @ \ | [ ] { } ~ and '.
I would therefore say that CapsLock is the more suitable choice of the
two as a default orca modifier key on laptops.
Best regards, Lukas
--
Ubuntu-accessibility mailing list
Ubuntu-accessibility@lists.ubuntu.com
https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-accessibility
Re: Orca on laptops.
Bill Haneman, le Wed 08 Nov 2006 13:24:53 +, a écrit : Luke Yelavich wrote: ... In Windows, Jaws manages to prevent the capslock key from being latched or unlatched. To latch/unlatch, you press shift + Capslock, or press capslock twice quickly. I see. I expect that would be a hazardous and/or fragile thing to attempt on X, especially if, as I believe, the latching behavior is a hardware feature on some (most?) keyboards. It was on some old keyboard, but with PC keyboard it is just a regular key. Samuel -- Ubuntu-accessibility mailing list Ubuntu-accessibility@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-accessibility
Re: Orca on laptops.
On my french keyboard, Mod2 is Numlock, Mod4 is Windows and Mod5 is AltGr. I didn't manage to hit Mod3. Samuel -- Ubuntu-accessibility mailing list Ubuntu-accessibility@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-accessibility
Re: Orca on laptops.
Bill Haneman wrote: Lukas Loehrer wrote:... I would therefore say that CapsLock is the more suitable choice of the two as a default orca modifier key on laptops. I don't wish to belabor this point, but I find that terminology confusing. If we remap the CapsLock key, then we are not using the CapsLock modifier at all! The question remains, then, what modifier do we assign to the (physical) CapsLock key? in order to use it for orca. Orca doesn't care what kind of key it uses for its modifier key. It can be anything. If anybody wants to try using CapsLock to see if they are more comfortable with it, then you can adjust the orca.settings.orcaModifierKeys line in ~/.orca/user-settings.py to: orca.settings.orcaModifierKeys = ['Caps_Lock'] -- Ubuntu-accessibility mailing list Ubuntu-accessibility@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-accessibility
Re: Orca on laptops.
Rich Burridge wrote: Orca doesn't care what kind of key it uses for its modifier key. It can be anything. Yes, but I think there is some agreement that finding a reasonable default modifier is a worthwhile goal. Bill If anybody wants to try using CapsLock to see if they are more comfortable with it, then you can adjust the orca.settings.orcaModifierKeys line in ~/.orca/user-settings.py to: orca.settings.orcaModifierKeys = ['Caps_Lock'] -- Ubuntu-accessibility mailing list Ubuntu-accessibility@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-accessibility
Re: Orca on laptops.
Hi All: I don't think there's a need to map an existing X modifier to the Orca modifier. Orca invents its own modifier internally and allows any key to act as the Orca modifier. That's why Insert and KP_Insert can act as the Orca modifier key. As such, I'm not sure which modifier is an important discussion to have. Will I think we need to resolve this second issue (i.e. of what _modifier_ we use for orca) before dealing with the first issue (i.e. what physical key we wish to assign that modifier to). As I said originally, we only have a few modifiers to choose from, whatever physical keys we wish to map them to. From X.h, we have: Shift Lock Control Mod1 (usually Alt) Mod2 (usually 'Meta' ?) Mod3 (usually NumLock?) Mod4 (Windows or Menu key, depends on the xkb map) Mod5 (not sure about this one, either Windows or Menu key on some maps) I suppose we could use 'Meta', provided we don't mind remapping some physical key in existing keymaps, since it doesn't seem to be widely used on PC laptops these days. The API call which should be used to determine how a particular keysym maps to a particular modifier bit (for Mod1 through Mod5) looks like this: meta_mask = XkbKeysymToModifiers (display, XK_Meta_L); Note that in theory left and right versions of the 'Meta','Control', etc. keysyms could be mapped to different mask bits. best regards, Bill Best regards, Lukas ___ ___ Orca-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/orca-list -- Ubuntu-accessibility mailing list Ubuntu-accessibility@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-accessibility
Re: Orca on laptops.
Thanks Will. That clarifies things somewhat - we're using the term modifier key differently. Maybe I'll contact you offlist for info on the internal details. So does that basically mean this whole discussion of orca on laptops is moot, or at least addressed fully via orca.settings.orcaModifierKeys (possibly with a UI for changing it easily) ? Bill Willie Walker wrote: Hi All: I don't think there's a need to map an existing X modifier to the Orca modifier. Orca invents its own modifier internally and allows any key to act as the Orca modifier. That's why Insert and KP_Insert can act as the Orca modifier key. As such, I'm not sure which modifier is an important discussion to have. Will -- Ubuntu-accessibility mailing list Ubuntu-accessibility@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-accessibility
Re: Orca on laptops.
Cleverson wrote: Hi all My suggestion is that we don't have a single laptop layout, but perhaps three to five layouts matching several kinds of keyboards. I think we should try to avoid this if we can. A single keyboard layout for laptops will be easier to maintain and support (such as on-line documentation). Perhaps we can have have one default laptop layout that works well on most machines and then have small 'patch' alterations for exceptions. So one layout might work well on 90% of laptops, but you then have a standard alteration for Macs, old Toshibas, etc. There could be quite a few of those, but the changes in each would be simple. Henrik -- Ubuntu-accessibility mailing list Ubuntu-accessibility@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-accessibility
edgy not installing
I went to my Linux group on Monday to try and upgrade my version of Ubuntu to Edgy. However the speech didn't seem to come up when I pressed F5 followed by 3 when the boot menu came up and it seems like even trying to install without speech didn't work either. I burned the Live CD myself at home. For some reason it took an extremely long time to load Ubuntu as a live version on my laptop, I got the music and the icons took ages to come up but even when a Fully Sighted person double clicked on the install icon on the desktop, the system just crashed. I know there was talk of a problem with the desktop icon for the installer in the info on having a spoken installation of Ubuntu from running it live but does this problem affect the Sighted user as well which was why I kept getting a system crsh? As far as I know I don't have any problems with my CDs as I think it does run as Live but I burned a fresh copy on Tuesday to see if I have the same problem and as far as I can tell although I can't read the screen without speech, the problem is still there. I even tried checking my desk when I put it in my desktop machine but it keeps trying to come up with that stuff on screen so I can't check to see if all the files are there so the only thing I can see is something like disk tree or something like that because it tries to run as live when I am in Windows. -- Ubuntu-accessibility mailing list Ubuntu-accessibility@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-accessibility
Re: Orca on laptops.
Hello all, Speakup had a the capslock key as a modifier for laptops, with the right-hand part of the keyboard being used in place of the numpad keys, e.g. uio = 789 jkl = 456 m,. = 123 I can't remember what they did for /, *, -, +, ., or the enter key, but I'm sure of the main part. I didn't use it much as I didn't have a laptop at the time, but I experimented with it and thought it was pretty sensible. Terrence Terrence m,./ or something like that. -- Ubuntu-accessibility mailing list Ubuntu-accessibility@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-accessibility
Re: Orca on laptops.
Perhaps I should be clearer about my experiences with capslock as a modifier. I'm assuming now that shiftlock and capslock are the same thing. In Speakup, capslock serves as the modifier key to get access to the screen reading keys, and does not in fact toggle on and off. To enable the USUAL behavior, I would hit the shift key plus the shiftlock key, then do the same to disable it. Terrence -- Ubuntu-accessibility mailing list Ubuntu-accessibility@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-accessibility
Re: Orca on laptops.
With regards to alternatives to the numeric keypad, might it make sense to offer Emacs- and Vim-style movement keys as options? Just a thought. Also, as though to prove how important this issue is, here's a post just sent to the Mozilla dev-accessibility list in which a would-be Ubuntu and Orca user despairs over his inability to manage keyboard combinations and shortcuts: http://tinyurl.com/yde2sm Does anyone happen to know how he could restore default Gnome settings for keyboard shortcuts? I had a look in my home directory and GConf and couldn't work out where the main shortcuts are stored. -- Ubuntu-accessibility mailing list Ubuntu-accessibility@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-accessibility
Re: Orca on laptops.
Hi Janina, Of course, the fact that this is established practice and widely expected by users both on Windows and Linux should really end this discussion, from the user point of view. Choosing anything else will certainly cause continuing confusion and displeasure among users, so there'd need to be extremely powerful arguments to choose anything else. I haven't heard arguments yet in this thread that strike me as sufficiently convincing to look for some other modifier. One of the arguments for Insert (or rather KP_Insert, the 0 on the numeric keypad), is that you can do chords (Insert-whatever) with one hand, whilst the other hand could remain on the braille display. I can quantify how significant that is to a blind user. Hopefully other members of this list can speakup (sorry) and tell us. It's available, achievable and remappable, and it's what users expect. What else do we need to put this one to bed? My feeling is that we just need to pick a default that most people want. If that's CapsLock to be compatible with JAWS and Speakup, then so be it. As it's configurable, other users can adjust accordingly. -- Ubuntu-accessibility mailing list Ubuntu-accessibility@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-accessibility
Re: Orca on laptops.
Rich Burridge wrote: I can quantify how significant that is to a blind user. That should have course been: I can't quantify how significant that is to a blind user. -- Ubuntu-accessibility mailing list Ubuntu-accessibility@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-accessibility
