Re: Creating An Accessibility Specification for Lubuntu 11.10
On Sun, 29 May 2011 19:22:25 -0700 Jonathan Marsden wrote: > On 05/29/2011 12:03 PM, Alan Bell wrote: > > >> How about sharing Ubuntu's current official accessibility roadmap with > >> the Lubuntu developers, as a start? ... > > > not a roadmap as such, but I have started drafting a document on the > > Ubuntu infrastructure for accessibility > > http://pad.ubuntu.com/AccessibilityInfrastructure > > Does this mean that, in reality, there is no accessiblity roadmap, for > any Ubuntu variant? No, it means each distribution makes its own accessibility roadmap, since we don't know what each distribution developers are capable of during a cycle. Kubuntu, for example, will have accessible installations and screen-reader this cycle. Xubuntu has not decided on its plans yet. Each variant is in fact a separate distribution, even if we all use the same repositories. > > Thanks. I made a few minor edits. A wiki would be better so there is a > clear history of who edited what when, etc. > > > This will get transferred to the wiki at some point when it is nearly > > complete and the most glaring errors have been fixed. > > I'd suggest just putting what you have into a wiki page, now, so that > history will be maintained as the document is changed. > > What this lacks at this point is any sense of priorities -- *this* is > more important to do first, *that* can wait, etc., or any sense of "to > make a Qt app more easily accessible, to *this*; to make a GTK app more > accessible, do *that*; to create an accessible installer, do *this other > thing*". So it is currently useful as background info, but not in > suggesting "what to do next". > > Also, links to the various things (software, APIs, etc.) that it > mentions would be a great addition. > > > I don't know much about Lubuntu, only that it is based on something > > called LXDE as a window manager and is targeted at really old > > computers. > > Well, or some people just like a leaner faster desktop environment. I'm > surprised to see how many Lubuntu users actually choose use it on > hardware that would support Ubuntu or Kubuntu. > > > Looking at lubuntu.net it seems to be based on GTK, so I imagine just > > installing gnome-orca will pull in speech dispatcher at-spi2 and espeak, > > install onboard and you have an on-screen keyboard too. Does it use > > ubiquity for the installer? > > Yes, but alternative installer(s) are something we want to see as we > move to using real Ubuntu ISO build infrastructure. > > Jonathan > -- Charlie Kravetz Linux Registered User Number 425914 [http://counter.li.org/] Never let anyone steal your DREAM. [http://keepingdreams.com] -- Ubuntu-accessibility mailing list Ubuntu-accessibility@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-accessibility
Re: Creating An Accessibility Specification for Lubuntu 11.10
On 05/29/2011 12:03 PM, Alan Bell wrote: >> How about sharing Ubuntu's current official accessibility roadmap with >> the Lubuntu developers, as a start? ... > not a roadmap as such, but I have started drafting a document on the > Ubuntu infrastructure for accessibility > http://pad.ubuntu.com/AccessibilityInfrastructure Does this mean that, in reality, there is no accessiblity roadmap, for any Ubuntu variant? Thanks. I made a few minor edits. A wiki would be better so there is a clear history of who edited what when, etc. > This will get transferred to the wiki at some point when it is nearly > complete and the most glaring errors have been fixed. I'd suggest just putting what you have into a wiki page, now, so that history will be maintained as the document is changed. What this lacks at this point is any sense of priorities -- *this* is more important to do first, *that* can wait, etc., or any sense of "to make a Qt app more easily accessible, to *this*; to make a GTK app more accessible, do *that*; to create an accessible installer, do *this other thing*". So it is currently useful as background info, but not in suggesting "what to do next". Also, links to the various things (software, APIs, etc.) that it mentions would be a great addition. > I don't know much about Lubuntu, only that it is based on something > called LXDE as a window manager and is targeted at really old > computers. Well, or some people just like a leaner faster desktop environment. I'm surprised to see how many Lubuntu users actually choose use it on hardware that would support Ubuntu or Kubuntu. > Looking at lubuntu.net it seems to be based on GTK, so I imagine just > installing gnome-orca will pull in speech dispatcher at-spi2 and espeak, > install onboard and you have an on-screen keyboard too. Does it use > ubiquity for the installer? Yes, but alternative installer(s) are something we want to see as we move to using real Ubuntu ISO build infrastructure. Jonathan -- Ubuntu-accessibility mailing list Ubuntu-accessibility@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-accessibility
Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Creating An Accessibility Specification for Lubuntu 11.10
It does use Ubiquity by default, but we are looking at an alternative installer cd as well. Might even promote it more then the "normal" installer? With metta, Chris Druif On Sun, May 29, 2011 at 22:57, Julien Lavergne wrote: > Le Sunday 29 May 2011 à 20:03 +0100, Alan Bell a écrit : > > not a roadmap as such, but I have started drafting a document on the > > Ubuntu infrastructure for accessibility > > http://pad.ubuntu.com/AccessibilityInfrastructure > > This will get transferred to the wiki at some point when it is nearly > > complete and the most glaring errors have been fixed. > Thanks Alan for the help :) > > > I don't know much about Lubuntu, only that it is based on something > > called LXDE as a window manager and is targeted at really old > > computers. > Let's say that LXDE is a GTK/GLib environnement, with very limited GNOME > depends :) > > > Looking at lubuntu.net it seems to be based on GTK, so I imagine just > > installing gnome-orca will pull in speech dispatcher at-spi2 and > > espeak, > > install onboard and you have an on-screen keyboard too. > Thanks, it's a good start :) They doesn't seems to pull to much GNOME > depends, so we could consider it. However, I'm more concerned about the > changes needed on our programs, to make them accessible. > > > Does it use > > ubiquity for the installer? > Yes. > > Regards, > Julien Lavergne > > > ___ > Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~lubuntu-desktop > Post to : lubuntu-desk...@lists.launchpad.net > Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~lubuntu-desktop > More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp > -- Ubuntu-accessibility mailing list Ubuntu-accessibility@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-accessibility
Re: Creating An Accessibility Specification for Lubuntu 11.10
On Sun, 29 May 2011 01:02:26 -0700 Jonathan Marsden wrote: > On 05/27/2011 09:26 AM, Pia wrote: > > > ..., but in open source, if you have a very small group represented, > > you have to get your hands dirty first in order to sufficiently > > understand the situation well enough to come up with good system > > specifications and a reasonable roadmap in a reasonable time frame. > > So, what we were doing in discussing details and wanting to actually > > test a few things was just that and what you originally were > > complaining about. Assessing the situation would allow us to know > > what we can take from Ubuntu's road map and what has to be adjusted. > > How about sharing Ubuntu's current official accessibility roadmap with > the Lubuntu developers, as a start? I note that > > https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Accessibility/Links > > does not seem to me to include a pointer to it, at least not by any name > recognizably similar to "Ubuntu Accessibility Roadmap", which seems an > unfortunate omission. > > Point us towards it, please, and tell us how far along each current > Ubuntu variant (Ubuntu, Kubuntu, Xubuntu, and Server) is in implementing > it, if that is not clear from reading the roadmap itself or related > documents to which it links. > > Then, we can perhaps be a part of the process of "assessing the > situation", determining what we can take from Ubuntu's accessibility > roadmap in creating the Lubuntu equivalent of it. My suspicion is that > LXDE itself could need a fair bit of work to use the GTK accessibility > stuff well enough to be useful -- but that's a total guess, in part > because I've not seen a Ubuntu-oriented definition of "doing > accessibility well enough to be useful" yet. > > I suspect that if you and Alan and Phill and Charlie and whoever else > create a roadmap for Lubuntu accessibility separate from the Lubuntu > developers, it may not be well accepted by them when it is finally > presented to them. Better, surely, to include them (us) in that > process, from the beginning? > > Reading > > https://launchpad.net/~lubuntu-dev/+members#active > > will show you that Lubuntu officially currently has exactly two (2) > developers! > > Both of them have asked, independently and in different ways, on the > lubuntu-desktop list, for some kind of definition of what exactly we are > trying to do to "add accessibility" this cycle. > > If wanting some clarity means "not getting it", then I'd say you are > 100% correct, by that definition I "don't get it" yet! > > As for specifications and clear definitions etc. being overly formal and > so unacceptable to you, blueprints and UDS discussion and refinement > thereof are a standard and expected part of every Ubuntu development > cycle, for every Ubuntu variant, as I hope you are aware. Lubuntu is > not an exception in this regard. Nor is accessibility. I have not > suggested anything different happen for work on accessibility than > happens for other software development work on Lubuntu. First, decide > what work will be done; then, do that work. > > Trying to locate the Ubuntu Accessibility Roadmap that you seem to > suggest already exists somewhere, I just now did a Google search for > > ubuntu accessibility roadmap > > and found no clearly definitive document for the Oneiric cycle in the > first couple of pages of hits. Can you provide pointers to the > documentation I have missed? > > From this search, I did find my way to: > > > https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu-community/+spec/ubuntutheproject-community-n-improving-accessibility-devel-and-info > > which suggests that perhaps this kind of info is not in fact yet > available, but is perhaps being worked on this cycle, since many parts > of that spec say "postponed" -- presumably postponed until Oneiric? > > If so, my proposal that we wait one cycle (note: not indefinitely, one > development cycle!) before commencing Lubuntu accessibility development > work fits it rather well, doesn't it -- once the spec linked above is > fully completed, Lubuntu will (I would think) then have easier access to > the baseline documentation and information needed to make good decisions > about what to implement to improve its accessibility in the 12.04 cycle. > > I also found > > https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Accessibility/Team/Goals > > which says these are "potential goals"; so not really a clearly defined > roadmap, at this stage, then. > > Then I found > > https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Accessibility/Specs > > which has links to some specs dating back to Feisty (!), and specs for > Natty that may or may not have actually been implemented (it doesn't > say), and links to docs that it says "must be updated". No clarity on > Oneiric accessibility status or a roadmap there. Last edit was around 7 > months ago -- a whole development cycle ago. > > Maybe "everyone" knows where the current official and widely accepted > Ubuntu Accessibility Roadmap really is, but Julie
Re: Creating An Accessibility Specification for Lubuntu 11.10
Le Sunday 29 May 2011 à 20:03 +0100, Alan Bell a écrit : > not a roadmap as such, but I have started drafting a document on the > Ubuntu infrastructure for accessibility > http://pad.ubuntu.com/AccessibilityInfrastructure > This will get transferred to the wiki at some point when it is nearly > complete and the most glaring errors have been fixed. Thanks Alan for the help :) > I don't know much about Lubuntu, only that it is based on something > called LXDE as a window manager and is targeted at really old > computers. Let's say that LXDE is a GTK/GLib environnement, with very limited GNOME depends :) > Looking at lubuntu.net it seems to be based on GTK, so I imagine just > installing gnome-orca will pull in speech dispatcher at-spi2 and > espeak, > install onboard and you have an on-screen keyboard too. Thanks, it's a good start :) They doesn't seems to pull to much GNOME depends, so we could consider it. However, I'm more concerned about the changes needed on our programs, to make them accessible. > Does it use > ubiquity for the installer? Yes. Regards, Julien Lavergne -- Ubuntu-accessibility mailing list Ubuntu-accessibility@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-accessibility
Re: Creating An Accessibility Specification for Lubuntu 11.10
On 05/27/2011 09:26 AM, Pia wrote: > ..., but in open source, if you have a very small group represented, > you have to get your hands dirty first in order to sufficiently > understand the situation well enough to come up with good system > specifications and a reasonable roadmap in a reasonable time frame. > So, what we were doing in discussing details and wanting to actually > test a few things was just that and what you originally were > complaining about. Assessing the situation would allow us to know > what we can take from Ubuntu's road map and what has to be adjusted. How about sharing Ubuntu's current official accessibility roadmap with the Lubuntu developers, as a start? I note that https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Accessibility/Links does not seem to me to include a pointer to it, at least not by any name recognizably similar to "Ubuntu Accessibility Roadmap", which seems an unfortunate omission. Point us towards it, please, and tell us how far along each current Ubuntu variant (Ubuntu, Kubuntu, Xubuntu, and Server) is in implementing it, if that is not clear from reading the roadmap itself or related documents to which it links. Then, we can perhaps be a part of the process of "assessing the situation", determining what we can take from Ubuntu's accessibility roadmap in creating the Lubuntu equivalent of it. My suspicion is that LXDE itself could need a fair bit of work to use the GTK accessibility stuff well enough to be useful -- but that's a total guess, in part because I've not seen a Ubuntu-oriented definition of "doing accessibility well enough to be useful" yet. I suspect that if you and Alan and Phill and Charlie and whoever else create a roadmap for Lubuntu accessibility separate from the Lubuntu developers, it may not be well accepted by them when it is finally presented to them. Better, surely, to include them (us) in that process, from the beginning? Reading https://launchpad.net/~lubuntu-dev/+members#active will show you that Lubuntu officially currently has exactly two (2) developers! Both of them have asked, independently and in different ways, on the lubuntu-desktop list, for some kind of definition of what exactly we are trying to do to "add accessibility" this cycle. If wanting some clarity means "not getting it", then I'd say you are 100% correct, by that definition I "don't get it" yet! As for specifications and clear definitions etc. being overly formal and so unacceptable to you, blueprints and UDS discussion and refinement thereof are a standard and expected part of every Ubuntu development cycle, for every Ubuntu variant, as I hope you are aware. Lubuntu is not an exception in this regard. Nor is accessibility. I have not suggested anything different happen for work on accessibility than happens for other software development work on Lubuntu. First, decide what work will be done; then, do that work. Trying to locate the Ubuntu Accessibility Roadmap that you seem to suggest already exists somewhere, I just now did a Google search for ubuntu accessibility roadmap and found no clearly definitive document for the Oneiric cycle in the first couple of pages of hits. Can you provide pointers to the documentation I have missed? >From this search, I did find my way to: https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu-community/+spec/ubuntutheproject-community-n-improving-accessibility-devel-and-info which suggests that perhaps this kind of info is not in fact yet available, but is perhaps being worked on this cycle, since many parts of that spec say "postponed" -- presumably postponed until Oneiric? If so, my proposal that we wait one cycle (note: not indefinitely, one development cycle!) before commencing Lubuntu accessibility development work fits it rather well, doesn't it -- once the spec linked above is fully completed, Lubuntu will (I would think) then have easier access to the baseline documentation and information needed to make good decisions about what to implement to improve its accessibility in the 12.04 cycle. I also found https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Accessibility/Team/Goals which says these are "potential goals"; so not really a clearly defined roadmap, at this stage, then. Then I found https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Accessibility/Specs which has links to some specs dating back to Feisty (!), and specs for Natty that may or may not have actually been implemented (it doesn't say), and links to docs that it says "must be updated". No clarity on Oneiric accessibility status or a roadmap there. Last edit was around 7 months ago -- a whole development cycle ago. Maybe "everyone" knows where the current official and widely accepted Ubuntu Accessibility Roadmap really is, but Julien and I currently do not, or we would not be asking for a clear statement of what "adding accessibility" is going to take, for Lubuntu. Please work with us to create such a definition, since it apparently does not yet exist. Or, point us directly to it, if it does alrea
Creating An Accessibility Specification for Lubuntu 11.10
Pia (and accessibility team), On 05/26/2011 03:22 PM, Pia wrote: > What John is asking for seems so obvious to us who are disabled that > I forget normal people don't "get it". I really hope the Ubuntu Accessibility team is not composed entirely of folks who are "disabled" -- some more or less "normal" people may well have an interest in accessibility issues, too. Is dividing human beings into "us" and "normal people" really a helpful and appropriate mindset for an accessibility team? All concerned might benefit more from working together, than from creating artificial and unhelpful divisions between people. For a little perspective: I am the guy who spoke up at a UDS session discussing possible software features for Lubuntu this release cycle and said (via IRC) "do we need to consider improving accessibility features of Lubuntu in Oneiric ?" (That is a direct quote, copied from my IRC log of 10 May 2011). Had I not done that, as far as I know doing this work would not even be under discussion for this development cycle, because accessibility would not be in the blueprint for Lubuntu 11.10 at all. I am an advocate for doing some work in this area in Lubuntu; in order for a very small team to do that effectively and efficiently, we need clarity on what exactly that work *is* , and how to prioritize it. This is not optional, it is required, if useful work in this area is to happen in the next few months within Lubuntu. Open source software development in general now has a fairly well established set of stages, and Debian and Ubuntu software development has its own perhaps even more specific variant of those. Defining clearly what it is you are trying to do, that is, writing a specification, or blueprint, is an early part of that process. Launchpad supports this with what it calls blueprints, UDS is the usual venue for refining these specifications, etc. There are probably books and academic papers written about this process... I submit that your stating or implying that I am "normal" and that I "don't get it" were both rather unfortunate and unhelpful choices to make. > That kind of request is like demanding that there be a specification > first that monitors and video cards have to be supported or that we > need mouse support. (It is tempting to make a comment about non-software-developers not "getting it", but that might be unkind). Allow me to use your own examples: Does Lubuntu 11.10 need to add full support for Tektronix vector graphics terminals as a primary output device, or do we need to add drivers for Hercules monochrome graphics cards this cycle? Do we need to support the Xerox Star mouse? Should we go to special lengths to add support for one-button mice, since Apple makes those? Is testing that Lubuntu works well with Microsoft bus mice appropriate and necessary, since no-one tested that in the last (Natty) development cycle? Saying "we need monitor, mouse and video card support" is a hopelessly vague specification, in need of much refinement before it can be implemented by software developers. So is "we need accessibility"! If you do not understand the rationale for software specifications being created and refined before software is designed and coded, it will be very difficult for you to make a significant contribution to the software development process of Lubuntu. I would therefore urge you and the accessibility team to make a little effort in that direction, just as I am trying to make some effort to learn more about what it will really take, and what it really means, to "add accessibility" to Lubuntu in a useful way. We can help each other, if we choose to do so. The alternative is to declare that those who are not like us and do not share our own background and education "don't get it". Which would you prefer? > The road map document would be simple. We need: I think this is a potentially useful initial rough draft; please do publish it on a wiki page, and so allow it to be edited and revised by the accessibility team as a whole, and to have others outside it (Lubuntu developers included, if they wish) add comments and questions. Here are a few questions from my initial reading of your list: 1. Are these items in priority order? If not, can your team please order them, so we can consider implementing the most important ones first? 2. How many (and which) of them do Xubuntu, Kubuntu and Ubuntu already fully support? (This helps us understand how far behind Lubuntu currently is). 3. How many and which of them do Xubuntu, Kubuntu and Ubuntu plan to work on implementing this (11.10 Oneiric) development cycle? (This helps us collaborate and use any such current work, avoiding any unnecessary duplication of effort). 4. "Something that allows for braille output" might be more of a hardware specification than a software one. I know braille output devices exist, and back in the days of text mode computer use have helped se
Re: Creating An Accessibility Specification for Lubuntu 11.10
Alan, Pia wrote: What John is asking for seems so obvious to us who are disabled that I forget normal people don't "get it". On 05/27/2011 06:55 AM, Alan Bell wrote: > It is made up of people, all of whom are normal, some of whom have a > specific impairment. People are motivated to work on accessibility > topics for a variety of reasons. Thanks! That's what I was hoping for. It's just not at all what the message from Pia suggests as a model. > the archives are open as far as I can see > https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-accessibility/ This seems to work for me now. > I can't find lubuntu-desktop on lists.ubuntu.com, where is that as I > am missing some context. We each can't find the 'other' list, how weird! I did try to look for the ubuntu-accessibility archive yesterday, and all I saw was 404 messages; maybe I mistyped its name or URL somehow? http://lists.launchpad.net/lubuntu-desktop is the archive for lubuntu-desktop. Jonathan -- Ubuntu-accessibility mailing list Ubuntu-accessibility@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-accessibility
Re: Creating An Accessibility Specification for Lubuntu 11.10
On 29/05/11 09:02, Jonathan Marsden wrote: On 05/27/2011 09:26 AM, Pia wrote: ..., but in open source, if you have a very small group represented, you have to get your hands dirty first in order to sufficiently understand the situation well enough to come up with good system specifications and a reasonable roadmap in a reasonable time frame. So, what we were doing in discussing details and wanting to actually test a few things was just that and what you originally were complaining about. Assessing the situation would allow us to know what we can take from Ubuntu's road map and what has to be adjusted. How about sharing Ubuntu's current official accessibility roadmap with the Lubuntu developers, as a start? I note that https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Accessibility/Links does not seem to me to include a pointer to it, at least not by any name recognizably similar to "Ubuntu Accessibility Roadmap", which seems an unfortunate omission. not a roadmap as such, but I have started drafting a document on the Ubuntu infrastructure for accessibility http://pad.ubuntu.com/AccessibilityInfrastructure This will get transferred to the wiki at some point when it is nearly complete and the most glaring errors have been fixed. I don't know much about Lubuntu, only that it is based on something called LXDE as a window manager and is targeted at really old computers. Looking at lubuntu.net it seems to be based on GTK, so I imagine just installing gnome-orca will pull in speech dispatcher at-spi2 and espeak, install onboard and you have an on-screen keyboard too. Does it use ubiquity for the installer? Alan -- Ubuntu-accessibility mailing list Ubuntu-accessibility@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-accessibility
