Fwd: Lubuntu and Accessibility
Meant to send this to the entire list but didn't realize it did not go through. Thans. Alex M -- Forwarded message -- From: Alex Midence Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2011 16:54:43 -0500 Subject: Re: Lubuntu and Accessibility To: frederik.gladh...@nokia.com Hi, Frederik, Here is one of the resources that led me to believe that iaccessible2 was a feasible accessibility api for Linux applications and applications used to make others accessible in Linux to rely upon: http://www.linuxfoundation.org/collaborate/workgroups/accessibility/iaccessible2/overview If it can not be used in Linux, why is it supported by the Linux Foundation? Alex M On 6/6/11, Alex Midence wrote: > Thanks for clearing that up. I was always quite mystified as to why > it wasn't used. I found all sorts of postings as to why it was a bad > idea but never anything quite so informative as to just why At-Spi was > so preferable. I also found many postings when it first came out > touting it as a good solution for cross-platform accessibility which > is the reason I was under the impression that it could conceivably be > implemented in Linux and hadn't been done so due to people preference > and not because it was not feasible. > > Thanks again. > Alex M > > On 6/6/11, frederik.gladh...@nokia.com wrote: >> Hi, >> >> On Jun 6, 2011, at 3:42 AM, ext Alex Midence wrote: >>> I seem to recall that Klaus Knopix is reputed to have had some success >>> making LXDE accessible in his Knopix Adrienne distribution. Perhaps >>> that is something that could be used as reference? As for >>> python-related slowness in Orca, I would tend to agree. C is just >>> faster than Python. Interpreted languages are going to require far >>> more memory and resources than compiled ones in many cases. >>> >>> Actually, a saner thing would be an implementation of orca written in >>> both C or c++ and Python. The low-level code in c and the more >>> scriptable areas in Python. This is what NVDA's devs did and it's a >>> slighning fast screen reader on a bloated system like Windows. While >>> we're wishing, I'll go ahead and wish for iaccessible2 support instead >>> of complete and exclusive reliance on at-spi/at-spi2 so that more >>> widget toolkits might become accessible since some of them do support >>> iaccessible2 but not at-spi. >> >> the APIs of IAccessible2 and at-spi2 are very similar. >> Their big difference is the implementation. IAccessible2 (based on MSAA) >> uses Windows COM for inter process communication. >> at-spi2 uses dbus. >> >> That means having IAccessible2 on Linux doesn't make much sense. And >> implementing it using DBus you end up with exactly at-spi2. >> Please don't propose solutions that simply don't match the problem. >> >> Instead of speculating about performance we should use profiling tools to >> see where the performance lags. >> I suspect DBus is a large part of it. And the way we use DBus is used is >> another big issue. Python may or may not play a role. >> >> Greetings, >> Frederik >> >> >>> I'm on a orle here so, I'll keep >>> wishing. I want a faster, lag-free web browsing experience with >>> something akin to an off screen model, navigation by element list. >>> and an expanded list of elements by which one can navigate like div >>> and span. The inferior browsing experience in Linux is the only >>> thing that keeps me going back to windows. >>> >>> Just my two cents, >>> Alex >>> >>> >>> >>> Date: Sat, 4 Jun 2011 09:49:37 +0200 >>> From: Halim Sahin >>> To: ubuntu-accessibility@lists.ubuntu.com >>> Subject: Re: Lubuntu and Accessibility Message-ID: <20110604074937.GA25814@gentoo.local> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi, On Di, Mai 24, 2011 at 01:14:32 +1000, Luke Yelavich wrote: > The first thing is making sure LXDE is actually accessible, i.e make > sure it has keyboard shortcuts, and supports the launching of the > accessibility framework at startup etc. As to using the LXDE GUI with > Orca etc, I think the biggest problem here is the use of python. The Hmm, do you think we should replace orca in all desktop environments by a c-implementation? Slow performance is not related to lxde only. Orca isn't faster in gnome as well so I can't understand what you want to say here. Regarding lxde a11y: I played a bit with the components in the past. The most dificult problem was to run at-spi-registryd before the first gtk app starts. The application menu works (ctrl+esc). pcmanfm in desktopmode doesn't read anything. pcmanfm started in filemanager mode works when changing to details in menu->view. The buttons/panels are not accessible on the desktop because of missing keyboard shortcuts afaik. HTH. Halim -- -- Ubuntu-accessibility mailing list Ubuntu-accessibility@lists.ubuntu.com
Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Fwd: Lubuntu and Accessibility
Thanks. I'll keep a copy of this notes, It will be useful when the work on accessibility will start :) Regards, Julien Lavergne Le Tuesday 24 May 2011 à 23:58 +0100, Phill Whiteside a écrit : > > > -- Forwarded message -- > From: Rob Whyte > Date: Tue, May 24, 2011 at 8:24 AM > Subject: Re: Lubuntu and Accessibility > To: Phill Whiteside > > > Hi guys, > in my own efforts to get orca better with LXDE I conversed with Klaus > Knopper the author of Knoppix. > I have put his notes below.. > I also tried with nto much success to try and figure out why orca did > not work with thunar though it claims to have great gtk support. > Please find notes below and hope it is helpful. > > export SAL_USE_VCLPLUGIN="gtk" GTK_MODULES="gail:atk-bridge" > before starting a GTK program makes it aware of orca as screenreader. > You need to start orca as well, of course. > > The panel containing the menu (lxpanel in our case) will send the > "highlighted" menu item to orca automatically if the two variables > mentioned before are set before starting lxpanel. The tricky part is > to > pop up the menu without the mouse. Unfortunately, lxpanel does not > have a > "hotkey" for this on its own, but the command "lxpanelctl menu" will > notify lxpanel to show the menu. Now you add this command to the > window > managers hotkey list (which is different in compiz-fusion and > metacity), > and you are there. Once the hotkey (Alt-F1 in Knoppix) is pressed, > lxpanelctl menu will be called, and the menu pops up. > > I did not find a way yet to browse through the dock icons in lxpanel, > though it must be possible somehow, since using the mouse will focus > the > icons and lets orca speak them. Maybe, just the internal link between > icons and a hotkey for selecting them is missing. > > pcmanfm works quite well with orca, though the "desktop background" > version of it is not very talkative. If you start the windowed version > of pcmanfm, you can switch between canvases with eithger TAB or the > cursor keys (sometimes it's not very intuitive to understand which one > to use). > > It should be possible, yet I'm unsure how to make the desktop manager > part of pcmanfm put the focus on the first icon on the desktop. Once > one > item has the focus, you can browse through the desktop icons with the > cursor keys. > surely pcmanfm > could need some accessibility enhancements concerning hotkeys and > their > documentation. > > in regards to accessing the panel, > The only way I found so far is the "lxpanelctl" command which is to be > called by the window manager. Alt-F1 pops up the menu in Knoppix. > > The hotkey modifications for compiz-fusion and metacity concerning the > lxpanel menu is present in /etc/X11/Xsession.d/45knoppix. Here is an > excerpt: > > -- > > case "$STARTUP" in > *lxde|lx*) # Need to change Alt_F1 and Alt_F2 hotkeys in order to > make LXDE menu accessible > sed -i -e 's/as_main_menu_key *=.*$/as_main_menu_key = Disabled/g' \ > -e 's/as_run_command0_key *=.*$/as_run_command0_key = > -e 's/as_command0 *=.*$/as_command0 = lxpanelctl menu/g' \ >"$HOME/.config/compiz/compizconfig/Default.ini" 2/dev/null > gconftool --type string \ >--set /apps/metacity/global_keybindings/panel_main_menu > disabled \ >--set /apps/metacity/global_keybindings/panel_run_dialog > disabled \ >--set /apps/metacity/global_keybindings/run_command_1 > '--set /apps/metacity/global_keybindings/run_command_2 > '--set /apps/metacity/keybinding_commands/command_1 > 'lxpanelctl menu' \ >--set /apps/metacity/keybinding_commands/command_2 > 'lxpanelctl run' > ;; > *) # Change Alt-F1 back when not running lxde > sed -i -e 's/as_main_menu_key *=.*$/as_main_menu_key = "$HOME/.config/compiz/compizconfig/Default.ini" 2/dev/null > gconftool --type string \ >--set /apps/metacity/global_keybindings/panel_main_menu > '--set /apps/metacity/global_keybindings/panel_run_dialog > ' ;; > esac > > -- > > Of course this can also be set manually in gconf-editor > (metacity/gnome) or ccsm (compiz-fusion). > > Klaus Knopper > > > > > > On 23/05/11 19:58, Phill Whiteside wrote: > Hiyas, > > much has happened recently, including lubuntu getting > clearance for full > adoption at 11.10 by Canonical. Whilst I have quietly pushed > accessibility (well, maybe not so quietly) as a part of > lubuntu, we now > need a bit of help off this team. > > Our specification of the minimal hardware it will run on > cannot be > broken, nor can our commitment to pre i686 processors. > https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Lubuntu > > From a general chat to our head of development on lubuntu, he > is of the > opinion that if the code is really (and I mean really) tight, > that it >
Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Fwd: Lubuntu and Accessibility
On Wed, May 25, 2011 at 11:44:10AM EST, PCMan wrote: > For the panel, Brian Cameron has a good idea. He suggested that we can > use a different UI for orca. > That means, replacing all buttons in the bar with standard GtkButton > widget rather than some hand-made ones. > This looks ugly, but will have much better usability. If > "accessibility mode" is on, we use standard GtkButton with text label > rather than current ones with images on them. An alternative is to make the existing buttons accessible, by adding calls to atk to properly identify and label the buttons. This reduces the amount of divergence and makes it easier for you to maintain, as you don't have to maintain a set of buttons using 2 different ways of rendering etc. Luke -- Ubuntu-accessibility mailing list Ubuntu-accessibility@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-accessibility
Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Fwd: Lubuntu and Accessibility
Hi I like that approach, Plus as I'm totally blind, I don't care about the graphics and that's just resources being used for no reason for some buttons. Alex On 5/24/11, PCMan wrote: > For the panel, Brian Cameron has a good idea. He suggested that we can > use a different UI for orca. > That means, replacing all buttons in the bar with standard GtkButton > widget rather than some hand-made ones. > This looks ugly, but will have much better usability. If > "accessibility mode" is on, we use standard GtkButton with text label > rather than current ones with images on them. > > On Wed, May 25, 2011 at 6:58 AM, Phill Whiteside wrote: >> >> >> -- Forwarded message -- >> From: Rob Whyte >> Date: Tue, May 24, 2011 at 8:24 AM >> Subject: Re: Lubuntu and Accessibility >> To: Phill Whiteside >> >> >> Hi guys, >> in my own efforts to get orca better with LXDE I conversed with Klaus >> Knopper the author of Knoppix. >> I have put his notes below.. >> I also tried with nto much success to try and figure out why orca did not >> work with thunar though it claims to have great gtk support. >> Please find notes below and hope it is helpful. >> >> export SAL_USE_VCLPLUGIN="gtk" GTK_MODULES="gail:atk-bridge" >> before starting a GTK program makes it aware of orca as screenreader. >> You need to start orca as well, of course. >> >> The panel containing the menu (lxpanel in our case) will send the >> "highlighted" menu item to orca automatically if the two variables >> mentioned before are set before starting lxpanel. The tricky part is to >> pop up the menu without the mouse. Unfortunately, lxpanel does not have a >> "hotkey" for this on its own, but the command "lxpanelctl menu" will >> notify lxpanel to show the menu. Now you add this command to the window >> managers hotkey list (which is different in compiz-fusion and metacity), >> and you are there. Once the hotkey (Alt-F1 in Knoppix) is pressed, >> lxpanelctl menu will be called, and the menu pops up. >> >> I did not find a way yet to browse through the dock icons in lxpanel, >> though it must be possible somehow, since using the mouse will focus the >> icons and lets orca speak them. Maybe, just the internal link between >> icons and a hotkey for selecting them is missing. >> >> pcmanfm works quite well with orca, though the "desktop background" >> version of it is not very talkative. If you start the windowed version >> of pcmanfm, you can switch between canvases with eithger TAB or the >> cursor keys (sometimes it's not very intuitive to understand which one >> to use). >> >> It should be possible, yet I'm unsure how to make the desktop manager >> part of pcmanfm put the focus on the first icon on the desktop. Once one >> item has the focus, you can browse through the desktop icons with the >> cursor keys. >> surely pcmanfm >> could need some accessibility enhancements concerning hotkeys and their >> documentation. >> >> in regards to accessing the panel, >> The only way I found so far is the "lxpanelctl" command which is to be >> called by the window manager. Alt-F1 pops up the menu in Knoppix. >> >> The hotkey modifications for compiz-fusion and metacity concerning the >> lxpanel menu is present in /etc/X11/Xsession.d/45knoppix. Here is an >> excerpt: >> >> -- >> >> case "$STARTUP" in >> *lxde|lx*) # Need to change Alt_F1 and Alt_F2 hotkeys in order to make >> LXDE >> menu accessible >> sed -i -e 's/as_main_menu_key *=.*$/as_main_menu_key = Disabled/g' \ >> -e 's/as_run_command0_key *=.*$/as_run_command0_key = > -e 's/as_command0 *=.*$/as_command0 = lxpanelctl menu/g' \ >> "$HOME/.config/compiz/compizconfig/Default.ini" 2/dev/null >> gconftool --type string \ >> --set /apps/metacity/global_keybindings/panel_main_menu >> disabled >> \ >> --set /apps/metacity/global_keybindings/panel_run_dialog >> disabled >> \ >> --set /apps/metacity/global_keybindings/run_command_1 '> \ >> --set /apps/metacity/global_keybindings/run_command_2 '> \ >> --set /apps/metacity/keybinding_commands/command_1 'lxpanelctl >> menu' \ >> --set /apps/metacity/keybinding_commands/command_2 'lxpanelctl >> run' >> ;; >> *) # Change Alt-F1 back when not running lxde >> sed -i -e 's/as_main_menu_key *=.*$/as_main_menu_key = > "$HOME/.config/compiz/compizconfig/Default.ini" 2/dev/null >> gconftool --type string \ >> --set /apps/metacity/global_keybindings/panel_main_menu >> '> \ >> --set /apps/metacity/global_keybindings/panel_run_dialog >> '> ;; >> esac >> >> -- >> >> Of course this can also be set manually in gconf-editor (metacity/gnome) >> or >> ccsm (compiz-fusion). >> >> Klaus Knopper >> >> >> >> On 23/05/11 19:58, Phill Whiteside wrote: >>> >>> Hiyas, >>> >>> much has happened recently, including lubuntu getting clearance for full >>> adoption at 11.10 by Canonical. Whilst I have quietly pushed >>> accessibility (well, maybe not so quietl
Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Fwd: Lubuntu and Accessibility
For the panel, Brian Cameron has a good idea. He suggested that we can use a different UI for orca. That means, replacing all buttons in the bar with standard GtkButton widget rather than some hand-made ones. This looks ugly, but will have much better usability. If "accessibility mode" is on, we use standard GtkButton with text label rather than current ones with images on them. On Wed, May 25, 2011 at 6:58 AM, Phill Whiteside wrote: > > > -- Forwarded message -- > From: Rob Whyte > Date: Tue, May 24, 2011 at 8:24 AM > Subject: Re: Lubuntu and Accessibility > To: Phill Whiteside > > > Hi guys, > in my own efforts to get orca better with LXDE I conversed with Klaus > Knopper the author of Knoppix. > I have put his notes below.. > I also tried with nto much success to try and figure out why orca did not > work with thunar though it claims to have great gtk support. > Please find notes below and hope it is helpful. > > export SAL_USE_VCLPLUGIN="gtk" GTK_MODULES="gail:atk-bridge" > before starting a GTK program makes it aware of orca as screenreader. > You need to start orca as well, of course. > > The panel containing the menu (lxpanel in our case) will send the > "highlighted" menu item to orca automatically if the two variables > mentioned before are set before starting lxpanel. The tricky part is to > pop up the menu without the mouse. Unfortunately, lxpanel does not have a > "hotkey" for this on its own, but the command "lxpanelctl menu" will > notify lxpanel to show the menu. Now you add this command to the window > managers hotkey list (which is different in compiz-fusion and metacity), > and you are there. Once the hotkey (Alt-F1 in Knoppix) is pressed, > lxpanelctl menu will be called, and the menu pops up. > > I did not find a way yet to browse through the dock icons in lxpanel, > though it must be possible somehow, since using the mouse will focus the > icons and lets orca speak them. Maybe, just the internal link between > icons and a hotkey for selecting them is missing. > > pcmanfm works quite well with orca, though the "desktop background" > version of it is not very talkative. If you start the windowed version > of pcmanfm, you can switch between canvases with eithger TAB or the > cursor keys (sometimes it's not very intuitive to understand which one > to use). > > It should be possible, yet I'm unsure how to make the desktop manager > part of pcmanfm put the focus on the first icon on the desktop. Once one > item has the focus, you can browse through the desktop icons with the > cursor keys. > surely pcmanfm > could need some accessibility enhancements concerning hotkeys and their > documentation. > > in regards to accessing the panel, > The only way I found so far is the "lxpanelctl" command which is to be > called by the window manager. Alt-F1 pops up the menu in Knoppix. > > The hotkey modifications for compiz-fusion and metacity concerning the > lxpanel menu is present in /etc/X11/Xsession.d/45knoppix. Here is an > excerpt: > > -- > > case "$STARTUP" in > *lxde|lx*) # Need to change Alt_F1 and Alt_F2 hotkeys in order to make LXDE > menu accessible > sed -i -e 's/as_main_menu_key *=.*$/as_main_menu_key = Disabled/g' \ > -e 's/as_run_command0_key *=.*$/as_run_command0_key = -e 's/as_command0 *=.*$/as_command0 = lxpanelctl menu/g' \ > "$HOME/.config/compiz/compizconfig/Default.ini" 2/dev/null > gconftool --type string \ > --set /apps/metacity/global_keybindings/panel_main_menu disabled > \ > --set /apps/metacity/global_keybindings/panel_run_dialog disabled > \ > --set /apps/metacity/global_keybindings/run_command_1 ' --set /apps/metacity/global_keybindings/run_command_2 ' --set /apps/metacity/keybinding_commands/command_1 'lxpanelctl > menu' \ > --set /apps/metacity/keybinding_commands/command_2 'lxpanelctl > run' > ;; > *) # Change Alt-F1 back when not running lxde > sed -i -e 's/as_main_menu_key *=.*$/as_main_menu_key = "$HOME/.config/compiz/compizconfig/Default.ini" 2/dev/null > gconftool --type string \ > --set /apps/metacity/global_keybindings/panel_main_menu ' \ > --set /apps/metacity/global_keybindings/panel_run_dialog ' ;; > esac > > -- > > Of course this can also be set manually in gconf-editor (metacity/gnome) or > ccsm (compiz-fusion). > > Klaus Knopper > > > > On 23/05/11 19:58, Phill Whiteside wrote: >> >> Hiyas, >> >> much has happened recently, including lubuntu getting clearance for full >> adoption at 11.10 by Canonical. Whilst I have quietly pushed >> accessibility (well, maybe not so quietly) as a part of lubuntu, we now >> need a bit of help off this team. >> >> Our specification of the minimal hardware it will run on cannot be >> broken, nor can our commitment to pre i686 processors. >> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Lubuntu >> >> From a general chat to our head of development on lubuntu, he is of the >> opinion that if the
Fwd: Lubuntu and Accessibility
-- Forwarded message -- From: Rob Whyte Date: Tue, May 24, 2011 at 8:24 AM Subject: Re: Lubuntu and Accessibility To: Phill Whiteside Hi guys, in my own efforts to get orca better with LXDE I conversed with Klaus Knopper the author of Knoppix. I have put his notes below.. I also tried with nto much success to try and figure out why orca did not work with thunar though it claims to have great gtk support. Please find notes below and hope it is helpful. export SAL_USE_VCLPLUGIN="gtk" GTK_MODULES="gail:atk-bridge" before starting a GTK program makes it aware of orca as screenreader. You need to start orca as well, of course. The panel containing the menu (lxpanel in our case) will send the "highlighted" menu item to orca automatically if the two variables mentioned before are set before starting lxpanel. The tricky part is to pop up the menu without the mouse. Unfortunately, lxpanel does not have a "hotkey" for this on its own, but the command "lxpanelctl menu" will notify lxpanel to show the menu. Now you add this command to the window managers hotkey list (which is different in compiz-fusion and metacity), and you are there. Once the hotkey (Alt-F1 in Knoppix) is pressed, lxpanelctl menu will be called, and the menu pops up. I did not find a way yet to browse through the dock icons in lxpanel, though it must be possible somehow, since using the mouse will focus the icons and lets orca speak them. Maybe, just the internal link between icons and a hotkey for selecting them is missing. pcmanfm works quite well with orca, though the "desktop background" version of it is not very talkative. If you start the windowed version of pcmanfm, you can switch between canvases with eithger TAB or the cursor keys (sometimes it's not very intuitive to understand which one to use). It should be possible, yet I'm unsure how to make the desktop manager part of pcmanfm put the focus on the first icon on the desktop. Once one item has the focus, you can browse through the desktop icons with the cursor keys. surely pcmanfm could need some accessibility enhancements concerning hotkeys and their documentation. in regards to accessing the panel, The only way I found so far is the "lxpanelctl" command which is to be called by the window manager. Alt-F1 pops up the menu in Knoppix. The hotkey modifications for compiz-fusion and metacity concerning the lxpanel menu is present in /etc/X11/Xsession.d/45knoppix. Here is an excerpt: -- case "$STARTUP" in *lxde|lx*) # Need to change Alt_F1 and Alt_F2 hotkeys in order to make LXDE menu accessible sed -i -e 's/as_main_menu_key *=.*$/as_main_menu_key = Disabled/g' \ -e 's/as_run_command0_key *=.*$/as_run_command0_key = Hiyas, > > much has happened recently, including lubuntu getting clearance for full > adoption at 11.10 by Canonical. Whilst I have quietly pushed > accessibility (well, maybe not so quietly) as a part of lubuntu, we now > need a bit of help off this team. > > Our specification of the minimal hardware it will run on cannot be > broken, nor can our commitment to pre i686 processors. > https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Lubuntu > > From a general chat to our head of development on lubuntu, he is of the > opinion that if the code is really (and I mean really) tight, that it > would be possible to include within the very tight constraints that we > are committed to be able to uphold the inclusion of accessibility and > has agreed that we should really strive to attain this. > > We are short of devs who can dedicate resources to this task, so I ask > that any of you who can assist do so. I'd really like to see lubuntu > 11.10 come out with as much accessibility as is possible on " A Pentium > II or Celeron system with 128 MiB of RAM is probably a bottom-line > configuration that may yield slow yet usable system with Lubuntu" > > So, once you've all had your heart attacks and say it cannot be done... > the ones who go "hmmm, that is actually possible.." Please make your > selves known. > > Regards, > > Phill. > > -- > https://wiki.ubuntu.com/phillw > > > -- https://wiki.ubuntu.com/phillw -- Ubuntu-accessibility mailing list Ubuntu-accessibility@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-accessibility
