Re: dreams and schemes

[Luke Yelavich]

Hi folks,
As much as I think this discussion needs to happen, this list is not the place. 
If you still want to discuss this topic, which IMO is a good thing, plesae 
consider using another list to do so. My recommendation is the Blinxu list, 
which is for general blind linux related discussion. You can find the list info 
page here: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list

I appreciate your cooperation.

Thanks,
Your friendly Ubuntu Accessibility list moderator.

Luke

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Re: dreams and schemes

[Christopher Chaltain]

For some reason, I thankfully didn't see the last handful of messages in 
this thread.


I did see that the following was stated, and I'd just like to say that I 
strongly disagree with such statements.


"The major problem I see in the US is that too many "blind people" want 
everything for free, they whine about anything that doesn't go their 
way, and believe employers should exempt them out of every minor aspect 
of a job that requires them to "work hard"."


I obviously can't say that there aren't some blind people who feel this 
way, but that's also true for some sighted people. As I said in a 
previous post, some blind people who feel this way were let down by a 
lack of positive role models as children or a rehab system that didn't 
set high expectations for them. Instead of looking down our noses at 
them we need to help them. I see plenty of whining on blindness related 
lists from people who think it's hopeless and don't think that any 
amount of legislation or rehabilitation is going to change the lot of 
the blind. There's just too much discrimination out there. I get 
frustrated with this negative attitude, but don't let the vocal minority 
speak for the quiet majority. I know far more blind people who are hard 
working or who sincerely want to be hard working than I do blind people 
who just want everything done for them.


Note that I strongly encourage blind people to contribute to open source 
projects and help their fellow blind peers. I'd like to do more of this 
myself, but I am proud of what I am able to do. Blind people, just like 
their sighted counterparts, also need to get a job and think of their 
own employment. That will limit how much someone, even someone out of 
work or between projects, can contribute to projects helping the blind.


I'm also not comfortable creating our own subculture. Blind people do 
share quite a few issues the sighted population doesn't have to Eal 
with, and I think we need to come together to help each other and make 
things better for other blind people, but I don't think we should 
separate ourselves from the mainstream population. I'm not saying it's 
easy, but we need to change the rest of the world so that it's more 
inclusive. We've accomplished a lot in the last few decades, and with an 
incredible amount of hard work, we can do more.


On 11/05/2013 01:24 PM, B. Henry wrote:

job is the best fix. The major problem I see in the US is that too many
>"blind people" want everything for free, they whine about anything that
>doesn't go their way, and believe employers should exempt them out of every
>minor aspect of a job that requires them to "work hard".
>
>


--
Christopher (CJ)
chaltain at Gmail


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Re: dreams and schemes

[B. Henry]

Note the subjectline.  Dreams and schemes implies that this is at best an 
untested theory, and assuming for the moment that this is something new and 
innovative, obviously there's no base of time prooven research and studies to 
build on. 
No barter will not pay for a cell phone network, gasoline refinery, nor 
expensive medical equiptment. It can on the other hand  greatly reduce the need 
for cash, creddit cards or bit coins. One could for example trade somthing that 
they grow, make or do for locally produced alcohol fuel, or even a welders time 
to make  a still so that a person or better yet a co-op could produce their own 
fuel. A doctor may not be able to  provide  MRI services free, but could 
certainly give consultations and in-house tests in exchange for work setting-up 
and maintaining an e-documents system, fresh vegies, or transportating her or 
his kids to swimming lessons, or the swimming lessons themselves. 
I believe that people who are interested in such arrangements are also more 
likely than the gneral population to see contributions to open source projects 
that benefit the society at large or under served sub-sets there of as worth 
"paying for" in some way. 
I don't think a completely cashless society is a practical efficient option, 
nor am I particularly interested in working towards this or most other 
extremes. 
There are any number of successful barter networks in existence today. Quite a 
few of these sprung up in response to the relatively high unemployment and 
under employment that we've seen in the last few years. (don't have the time to 
give any hard percentages, nor enough info to make an educated guess re this 
for that matter).
Lastly, and most importantly I was chiming in to a conversation that had not 
only strayed rather far from the original topic, but gone pretty much  OT for 
the group. I was answering a "hale Mary pass" of a solution proposed by a 
fellow group member. Do those kind of passes always work? Of course not, and 
when they do they require excellent coordiniation and timing combined with 
athletic ability and perhaps some luck.
I for one won't be continuing this discussion here because I feel it's gone too 
OT for the group, and I don't have time to attempt to write more or less well 
crafted email that could possibly take the discussion/debate forward in useful 
directions. 
Some of the ideas I and others have mentioned are worth persuing, but as is 
usually the case starting with the small and doable  is much more valuable than 
proposing grandios dreams and hoping that others will decide to follow up. One 
must lead by example.
--
B.H.
 
  

On Sun, Nov 03, 2013 at 01:33:07PM -0500, Andy B. wrote:
> How does bardering with people pay the bills? Do you have time proven
> research that shows industries that are making a nation-wide sweep with this
> "bardering system", or is this a fruitless, wishful, and carefree dream?
> Bardering will never feed family, pay the phone bill, get the credit card
> collectors off my back, get me to and from the store 3 times a week, and let
> me keep my internet that is required for school. For this type of problem, a
> job is the best fix. The major problem I see in the US is that too many
> "blind people" want everything for free, they whine about anything that
> doesn't go their way, and believe employers should exempt them out of every
> minor aspect of a job that requires them to "work hard".
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: B. Henry [mailto:burt1ib...@gmail.com] 
> Sent: Sunday, November 3, 2013 11:47 AM
> To: Andy B.
> Subject: Re: dreams and schemes
> 
> My take on the suggestion is not a social club/I'm totally uninterested in
> such an animal as there's not that much reason I'd have anything socially in
> common with blinks more than other folks. 
> I was considering the type of organization where qualified folks barter
> their skills for products and services with other people who are ot having
> success in the cash driven society. This is being done in who knows how many
> areas in the U.S. as a partial work arounnd for the unemployment crisis.
> Unemployment has always been a greater problem for the disabled in general
> and the bind in specific. When there's the kind of general ecoomic  crisis
> that so much of the world has been living over the last several  years we
> obviously have it even  worse.
> To be truly successful we'd need  more than blind people involved in our
> less cash society. It'd also require some truly top notch talent as well to
> get the attention  of others who were not onboard. 
> The only thing I see that might make this more than just another utopian
> dream/posibe footnote in history is our interconnectivity and instant global
> communicat

Re: dreams and schemes

[Krishnakant Mane]

Hi Doug,
I have the same experiences.
Infact me and my wife got together due to Free software.
I have all my students exclusively use GNU/Linux for all their 
programming and personal work, they have no problems with it.
There are a few states in our country which implement free software as a 
policy.
I will not say that the picture is absolutely rosy, but more and more 
people with whom I come in daily contact are using the free and open 
source operating system for every day work now.
a few years back, 5 odd years to be presise, hearing some one say "I use 
linux " was a surprise and a matter of great skillset as it seemd to 
many people.

But now every other person uses it or at least knows it.
This is what I have been through, I have not used proprietary softwaer 
or OS since 2005 and I have no regrets at all..

Happy hacking.
Krishnakant.
On 11/04/2013 07:16 AM, Doug Smith wrote:

Good going, Kyle.  I want to work as well.  However, come here and try to find 
some kind of work, even if it's being paid to sneeze into the wind.
The person who put on here that we have to put up with a lot of prejudice and 
rejection.  Short of taking control of the world, I see no reasonable
solution to this in the near future.  The only thing we can do is work when we 
can.

I have used linux exclusively since the mid to late 1990's.  I have done such 
things as offered to get the systems going again in local businesses
when they fail, but they had rather lock the doors and tell the customers that 
the computer has failed and the managers not to let new people in.
That is a class A susser when someone right there in the store could help even 
if screens had to be read.

I have worked on people's computers for some time.  I have friends in the next 
town for whom I have done computer work and they have learned to use a
computer with linux on it and have had no real trouble with it.

Here at the McCune Center, where I live, I have helped several residents with 
computer problems.  I just replaced the software on the machines with
linux and all is well.  I have even helped people get things going on systems I 
have never seen before over the phone.

You are right.  I know that it takes a while to get up to speed on some of this 
new tech that you have never programmed for.  That's fine.  I'm
working on that one and it is not as complex as it seems.  It's time consuming 
with all the other things I have to do but I can do it.

Now, on the subject of learning new computer systems.  I have taught my 
girlfriend, the other friends I referred to above and some of the residents
here to work with linux systems and they like it.  They don't have any kind of 
real problems that are too difficult to fix.

I could not have done that if I sound rude, condescending or mean.  I hope this 
message doesn't come across like that.  If so, I apologize in advance.
This is just a statement of fact, not a flame.

Now, I have not used proprietary operating systems or screen access tech since 
the days of the Apple // family of systems on which I first learned to
do computing of any kind.  I have used linux since the mid to late 1990's and I 
have never looked back.  I have never used windows nor mac-osx.  I
also find that whatever I need to do on a computer is easily doable on linux.

I do not mean to brag.  I have nothing to prove and I have nobody to prove it 
to.  This is, as previously stated, just a statement of truth.



Yours truly:








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Re: dreams and schemes

[Doug Smith]

Good going, Kyle.  I want to work as well.  However, come here and try to find 
some kind of work, even if it's being paid to sneeze into the wind.  
The person who put on here that we have to put up with a lot of prejudice and 
rejection.  Short of taking control of the world, I see no reasonable 
solution to this in the near future.  The only thing we can do is work when we 
can.  

I have used linux exclusively since the mid to late 1990's.  I have done such 
things as offered to get the systems going again in local businesses 
when they fail, but they had rather lock the doors and tell the customers that 
the computer has failed and the managers not to let new people in.  
That is a class A susser when someone right there in the store could help even 
if screens had to be read.  

I have worked on people's computers for some time.  I have friends in the next 
town for whom I have done computer work and they have learned to use a 
computer with linux on it and have had no real trouble with it.  

Here at the McCune Center, where I live, I have helped several residents with 
computer problems.  I just replaced the software on the machines with 
linux and all is well.  I have even helped people get things going on systems I 
have never seen before over the phone.  

You are right.  I know that it takes a while to get up to speed on some of this 
new tech that you have never programmed for.  That's fine.  I'm 
working on that one and it is not as complex as it seems.  It's time consuming 
with all the other things I have to do but I can do it.  

Now, on the subject of learning new computer systems.  I have taught my 
girlfriend, the other friends I referred to above and some of the residents 
here to work with linux systems and they like it.  They don't have any kind of 
real problems that are too difficult to fix.  

I could not have done that if I sound rude, condescending or mean.  I hope this 
message doesn't come across like that.  If so, I apologize in advance.  
This is just a statement of fact, not a flame.  

Now, I have not used proprietary operating systems or screen access tech since 
the days of the Apple // family of systems on which I first learned to 
do computing of any kind.  I have used linux since the mid to late 1990's and I 
have never looked back.  I have never used windows nor mac-osx.  I 
also find that whatever I need to do on a computer is easily doable on linux.  

I do not mean to brag.  I have nothing to prove and I have nobody to prove it 
to.  This is, as previously stated, just a statement of truth.  



Yours truly:





-- 
Doug Smith: Special Agent
S.W.A.T  Spiritual Warfare and Advanced Technology
Forever serving our LORD and SAVIOUR, JESUS CHRIST.


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Re: dreams and schemes

[Kyle]

According to Gabe Vega:

# Linux Accessability is not viable simply because
# people are Wishy Washie, it has nothing to do with money.


With an attitude like that, it's no wonder at all why you have trouble
finding people who want to work for you. YOu have made it crystal clear
that you think blind people just don't want to work, but I would submit
that with an attitude like that, most people would rather work for
someone who doesn't share your negative views. BTW, I have quite a bit
of trouble with your acessment that Linux accessibility is not viable,
but yet you say you hire people who work with Linux accessibility. I
have found Linux to be quite viable, both from an
accessibility/usability standpoint when related to use of screen readers
and other assistive technologies and from an overall usability
standpoint as related to average users just sitting down in front of a
Linux computer and getting things done. As a matter of fact, I have used
Linux exclusively for nearly 5 years, and have used it more than 75% of
the time for the 5 years before that, and I absolutely refuse to look
back, even so far as to run Windows or MacOS in a virtual machine. There
is just nothing I find that I miss from the days of running Windows that
much, and everything I need to do on a computer can be done on any Linux
operating system, and I don't have to be a sit at home all day geek, as
you so eloquently put it, in order to do those things. Furthermore, I
recently showed someone with little to no computer knowledge at all how
to plug in a thumb drive running Linux and use it to get on the internet
to look for jobs, read e-mail and much more, and I didn't have to take a
lot of time doing it. Granted, he didn't need a screen reader, but my
point is that he learned how to use Linux, and he had no computer skills
to speak of. Linux is viable. Linux accessibility is viable. Linux is
freedom, and Linux freedom is practical and useful.

In a later post to this thread, you posted a BTW with a link to your job
site. Well, I'm not sure about anyone else, but although I do want to
work, and although I do want to make a living supporting Linux and
building computers with Linux on them, both talking and non-talking for
*anyone* who needs one, I feel that with the attitudes you present in
this thread, I would much rather work for someone else or simply do
business for myself. I leave you with this question. Why would I want to
work for you with regard to Linux or Linux accessibility when it would
seem from where I'm sitting that you as a potential imployer don't take
it seriously? My skills are put to better use for a person or company
who does take Linux seriously, as I could tell you nothing about the
state of proprietary operating systems and screen readers today, and
don't want to have to learn/relearn such crap.
~Kyle
http://kyle.tk/
-- 
"Kyle? ... She calls her cake, Kyle?"
Out of This World, season 2 episode 21 - "The Amazing Evie"

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Re: dreams and schemes

[Christopher Chaltain]

I don't agree with the generalizations in this message. Sure there are 
some blind people who don't want to work and want things handed to them, 
but that's also true for some sighted people as well. Plus, blind people 
have to face prejudice and discrimination, put up with rejection, may 
not have positive blind role models growing up and might not have had 
parents or a school/rehab system that set high expectations for them. I 
know plenty of hard working blind people.


There are also obviously some highly technical people who don't have the 
patience or communication skills but there are plenty of people working 
on Linux who can explain things without being rude or mean.


I also wouldn't think insulting people who are working on Linux or 
voicing such a low opinion of blind people would help you find blind 
Linux support techs.




On 11/03/2013 11:12 AM, Gabe Vega wrote:

hello All:

Let me give you a clue from the Employers stand point.

1. we hire Linux Support Techs. who happen to be blind.
2. Coming from a fellow blind person I got to tell you that most blind 
people say they want to work but really don't know what work is.
3. there is more to Linux and working on it from a business stand 
point than from a sitting home all day being geekie stand point.


I have watched this topic for a while and kind of wonder why this is 
hard to figure out. Linux Accessability is not viable simply because 
people are Wishy Washie, it has nothing to do with money. because we 
are desperately trying to give money away all the time, but the thing 
is people don't want to "Work" for it, they just want hand outs. and 
for the people who do work on it, breathe it and eat it. they are too 
geekie to communicate with out sounding rude, mean or condescending.


Gabe Vega
CEO
Commtech LLC
Web: http://commtechusa.net
FaceBook: http://facebook.com/commtechllc
Twitter: http://twitter.com/commtechllc
Email: i...@commtechusa.net 
Phone: (888) 351-5289 ext. 710
Fax: (480) 535-7649

On Nov 2, 2013, at 1:29 PM, B. Henry > wrote:



Fair and far enough!
I doubt I'll live to see any other star, nor earth critters traveling 
to one; but a viable sub-culture seems completely reasonable.
If we continue down this path of the "1%" vs. the "99%" then I think 
some groups must inevitably split off from, or better coaless out of 
the 99%.
Education is the key no matter what though, so thanks for the 
suggestions in other messages.
We're going pretty OT, but if one or 10 new contributers come out of 
this then this will be perhaps the most important thread I've ever 
seen on thhis mailing list.

Cheers.
--
B.H.





On Fri, Nov 01, 2013 at 10:28:06PM -0400, Doug Smith wrote:
Nuke degrees.  I am not the best at math, but I have real savant 
skills when it comes to anything with a digital component.  I am 
working with
tutorials to try and catch up on the stuff that I didn't have access 
to in school.  I like coding, in fact, it's what I actually got this 
machine for,

and I hope to put it to good use one day soon.

As for math, it was my worst skill in school, but having all the 
math tools I have on here seems to solve that problem.  Once more, a 
few learning
ally textbooks and some net-based tutorials can take care of the 
problem.


You're right, I think that, if we can take most or all the money out 
of these tech situations, the best possibility for blind people to 
be employed
would be to form our own society, build some kind of generation ship 
and attempt to colonize another star.  This would keep the pervasive 
low
expectations out of the equation as well and we would have only 
ourselves to blame if something went wrong.




Thanks.




--
Doug Smith: Special Agent
S.W.A.T  Spiritual Warfare and Advanced Technology
Forever serving our LORD and SAVIOUR, JESUS CHRIST.


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--
Christopher (CJ)
chaltain at Gmail

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Re: dreams and schemes

[Gabe Vega]

oh and incase you are wondering, our jobs site is at:
http://commtechusa.net/jobs

Gabe Vega
CEO
Commtech LLC
Web: http://commtechusa.net
FaceBook: http://facebook.com/commtechllc
Twitter: http://twitter.com/commtechllc
Email: i...@commtechusa.net
Phone: (888) 351-5289 ext. 710
Fax: (480) 535-7649

On Nov 2, 2013, at 1:29 PM, B. Henry  wrote:

> Fair and far enough! 
> I doubt I'll live to see any other star, nor earth critters traveling to one; 
> but a viable sub-culture seems completely reasonable. 
> If we continue down this path of the "1%" vs. the "99%" then I think some 
> groups must inevitably split off from, or better coaless out of the 99%. 
> Education is the key no matter what though, so thanks for the suggestions in 
> other messages. 
> We're going pretty OT, but if one or 10 new contributers come out of this 
> then this will be perhaps the most important thread I've ever seen on thhis 
> mailing list.
> Cheers.
> --
> B.H.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Fri, Nov 01, 2013 at 10:28:06PM -0400, Doug Smith wrote:
>> Nuke degrees.  I am not the best at math, but I have real savant skills when 
>> it comes to anything with a digital component.  I am working with 
>> tutorials to try and catch up on the stuff that I didn't have access to in 
>> school.  I like coding, in fact, it's what I actually got this machine for, 
>> and I hope to put it to good use one day soon.  
>> 
>> As for math, it was my worst skill in school, but having all the math tools 
>> I have on here seems to solve that problem.  Once more, a few learning 
>> ally textbooks and some net-based tutorials can take care of the problem.  
>> 
>> You're right, I think that, if we can take most or all the money out of 
>> these tech situations, the best possibility for blind people to be employed 
>> would be to form our own society, build some kind of generation ship and 
>> attempt to colonize another star.  This would keep the pervasive low 
>> expectations out of the equation as well and we would have only ourselves to 
>> blame if something went wrong.  
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Thanks. 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> -- 
>> Doug Smith: Special Agent
>> S.W.A.T  Spiritual Warfare and Advanced Technology
>> Forever serving our LORD and SAVIOUR, JESUS CHRIST.
>> 
>> 
>> -- 
>> Ubuntu-accessibility mailing list
>> Ubuntu-accessibility@lists.ubuntu.com
>> https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-accessibility
> -- 
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Re: dreams and schemes

[Gabe Vega]

hello All:

Let me give you a clue from the Employers stand point.

1. we hire Linux Support Techs. who happen to be blind.
2. Coming from a fellow blind person I got to tell you that most blind people 
say they want to work but really don't know what work is.
3. there is more to Linux and working on it from a business stand point than 
from a sitting home all day being geekie stand point.

I have watched this topic for a while and kind of wonder why this is hard to 
figure out. Linux Accessability is not viable simply because people are Wishy 
Washie, it has nothing to do with money. because we are desperately trying to 
give money away all the time, but the thing is people don't want to "Work" for 
it, they just want hand outs. and for the people who do work on it, breathe it 
and eat it. they are too geekie to communicate with out sounding rude, mean or 
condescending.

Gabe Vega
CEO
Commtech LLC
Web: http://commtechusa.net
FaceBook: http://facebook.com/commtechllc
Twitter: http://twitter.com/commtechllc
Email: i...@commtechusa.net
Phone: (888) 351-5289 ext. 710
Fax: (480) 535-7649

On Nov 2, 2013, at 1:29 PM, B. Henry  wrote:

> Fair and far enough! 
> I doubt I'll live to see any other star, nor earth critters traveling to one; 
> but a viable sub-culture seems completely reasonable. 
> If we continue down this path of the "1%" vs. the "99%" then I think some 
> groups must inevitably split off from, or better coaless out of the 99%. 
> Education is the key no matter what though, so thanks for the suggestions in 
> other messages. 
> We're going pretty OT, but if one or 10 new contributers come out of this 
> then this will be perhaps the most important thread I've ever seen on thhis 
> mailing list.
> Cheers.
> --
> B.H.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Fri, Nov 01, 2013 at 10:28:06PM -0400, Doug Smith wrote:
>> Nuke degrees.  I am not the best at math, but I have real savant skills when 
>> it comes to anything with a digital component.  I am working with 
>> tutorials to try and catch up on the stuff that I didn't have access to in 
>> school.  I like coding, in fact, it's what I actually got this machine for, 
>> and I hope to put it to good use one day soon.  
>> 
>> As for math, it was my worst skill in school, but having all the math tools 
>> I have on here seems to solve that problem.  Once more, a few learning 
>> ally textbooks and some net-based tutorials can take care of the problem.  
>> 
>> You're right, I think that, if we can take most or all the money out of 
>> these tech situations, the best possibility for blind people to be employed 
>> would be to form our own society, build some kind of generation ship and 
>> attempt to colonize another star.  This would keep the pervasive low 
>> expectations out of the equation as well and we would have only ourselves to 
>> blame if something went wrong.  
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Thanks. 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> -- 
>> Doug Smith: Special Agent
>> S.W.A.T  Spiritual Warfare and Advanced Technology
>> Forever serving our LORD and SAVIOUR, JESUS CHRIST.
>> 
>> 
>> -- 
>> Ubuntu-accessibility mailing list
>> Ubuntu-accessibility@lists.ubuntu.com
>> https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-accessibility
> -- 
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> https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-accessibility

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