Re: [ubuntu-art] A request
On Mon, 2006-06-12 at 10:01 +0200, Michiel Sikma wrote: Op 12-jun-2006, om 9:43 heeft Billy het volgende geschreven: > On Mon, 2006-06-12 at 07:41 +0100, Joao Inacio wrote: >> I have no clue what you're talking about that but if i'm correct >> (english isn't my first language) thats called zealotry? > condemnation? zealotry? it's all the same name calling by those > that claim we shouldn't do such ;) >> Keep it up, and use whatever you think it's better. Freedom is >> also about not forcing anyone to use free software. > Oh that freedom word can be a lot of things. Including and not > limited to supporting the other os's. How can someone say 'we are > up against Vista' and use its software to improve its own os? > Freedom? No! Lack of vision and principle! To me, it's productivity. Not that I use Vista or ever plan on doing so. I'm not going to respond to the rest of your mail, which seems to be almost solely to provoke a heated debate. Michiel On Mon, 2006-06-12 at 10:02 +0200, Manu Cornet wrote: Hi ! There's a difference between having your own opinion and not letting other people have another one. Please understand that I don't go out of my way to pad things or attempt to be politically correct. I simply state my opinion, and that is all I have done. It was not intended to be offensive, but based on the topic, the reason for the original post, and the world we live in, I knew it would be assumed to be a flame. That's the norm these days, and I'm used to that. On Mon, 2006-06-12 at 22:36 +0800, Jerome Gotangco wrote: as long as the team works in an open format, why not? While I have, in the past, used psd's in gimp and not noticed any loss, that is not the case for svg between Inkscape and AI. Unless this has changed in the last year or so, working between these 2 apps is pointless and cripling at best. That's why. While the winds of change have swept the artteam, I will remind everyone that the use of oss apps was a requirement not long ago. Now that people have excused themselves because they say those apps are not worthy, things have changed. I simply disagree with both of the previous statements, and can, and have, proved it (as others have) so that all are without excuse, regardless of your opinion which I have not denied anyone the right of. It seems to be ok to say it is wrong to think only oss apps should be used, but if you take the other side and your opinion differs, you cross the line and have denied others the right to an opinion, which is absurd. That's very typical these days and hypocritical. So who provoked the heated debate? I didn't start the post on a loaded topic. ;) -- ubuntu-art mailing list ubuntu-art@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-art
Re: [ubuntu-art] A request
Hi Michiel,You can use every tool you prefer in my opinion. BTW for icons in tangerine I'd like to have the "source file" in bzr as well (like we do for tango-icon-theme and for g-i-t upstream) and those source file should be either in xcf (gimp format) or svg, since you cannot force people to use proprietary tools (which costs money, and usually lots of) while you can "force" them to use oss since it's free. So my take is that you can work with whatever tool you like but if you need to concurrently work on something you should provide the files in an oss friendly format. CiaoLapo -- ubuntu-art mailing list ubuntu-art@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-art
Re: [ubuntu-art] A request
as long as the team works in an open format, why not? I also contribute on TheOpenCD project (a FOSS for Windows CD) and we do have some art apps for win32. I work on both Linux and XP for it, and as long as I use a standard format that both platforms can work on, we're in good company. So yeah, standard formats = good company. -- Jerome Gotangco [EMAIL PROTECTED] Mobile: +639196555242 GPG: 0xA97B69A0 -- ubuntu-art mailing list ubuntu-art@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-art
Re: [ubuntu-art] A request
Manu Cornet wrote:
but what some guys are doing here looks very much like some kind of
"holy crusade" to me ("dude, believe in my god or I'll cut your head
off)".
Please chill, the main point of this team (if I understand it
correctly) is to made great artwork for Ubuntu, no matter what tools
you're using, isn't it ?
Cheers,
Manu
I agree with you Manu, and I can't believe this is happening. Michael
was merely making a request to stop the bitching, quite frankly a rather
reasonable request, one which I back, and to just get on with good art.
These holy crusaders you speak of are just taking it as an invite to
bitch themselves.
Billy wrote:
It won't make my art any better.
yes it does
Billy. Has anything you said in this discussion been backed up by any
real evidence? No. You're just preaching contradictions expecting
everyone to fall into place and believe you. Maybe if you showed us a
few pictures of art produced with proprietary software compared to art
produced by free and open software and show us some real infallible
evidence that open source is better, we might.
Thanks,
Tom Moitie
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Re: [ubuntu-art] A request
Michiel Sikma wrote: I've been on the Ubuntu Artwork team for a little while now. It was fun talking to everybody on the mailing list here and exciting to see my proposal for usplash used in Dapper. I can't wait to begin seriously contributing to Edgy and discussing how we should make it look great. There is one thing, however, that makes me a bit sour. On IRC in particular, I've noticed that there is a sort of detrimental attitude towards people who use proprietary software to contribute to Ubuntu. While I find it logical that one would promote dogfooding when possible, such as using GIMP to create graphics for open source software, but that shouldn't imply that it's okay to actively discourage the use of tried and tested software people like using. Michiel, thank you for your contributions so far, and I want to urge you to continue to contribute, using whatever tools work best for you right now. As others have written, the use of an open format like SVG or PNG makes collaboration easier and results in content that does not force other artists to make the same choices that you did. But I see that you understand that. It would also be great if you could, for example, once a year evaluate the best free software art tools, and blog about the features you think they need before someone like yourself will switch to them. That helps guide the development of free software and would be another valuable contribution. Ubuntu is not about limiting others to your choices. Ubuntu is also about freedom of choice, and I feel that Ubuntu Artwork development should be the same. Very well said. Folks, Michiel's feelings must have taken some courage to express. I expect this team and this list to be as passionate about the Ubuntu Code of Conduct as I am. We are here to collaborate and to help build a better software platform for everybody. Some people will choose to use proprietary software. That does not make them bad, or stupid, people. Value their contributions, perhaps even more for the fact that they our stepping "outside" their comfortable toolset to help us change their world. Our goal is to ensure that there exists a complete free software stack for any professional purpose. To do that, we need to draw on expertise which might not yet be ready to live in a free software-only world. Michiel is an example of that, and a great contributor to Ubuntu. Mark -- ubuntu-art mailing list ubuntu-art@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-art
Re: [ubuntu-art] A request
On 6/12/06, Billy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Freedom is also about not forcing anyone to use free software. Oh that freedom word can be a lot of things. Including and not limited to supporting the other os's. I have no clue what you are talking about. How can someone say 'we are up against Vista' and use its software to improve its own os? Freedom? No! Lack of vision and principle! Next you'll be saying emails written from windows boxes don't belong in this list. Freedom is about using what i want, not what anyone else thinks i should use. Stick to your opinion, you are entitled to it. but don't be surprised when people use the "z" word to describe it. -- João Inácio http://www.jcinacio.com -- ubuntu-art mailing list ubuntu-art@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-art
Re: [ubuntu-art] A request
It's more important to use open formats than open software, I would have concerns if the files were saved in .ai or .cdr rather than svg and that the components of the design where some how withheld from other artists and developers preventing the maintenance of the art. Why should I care what the program you used to make it was? use what you work best in and produce some great art. Best Regards, Martin Owens On Mon, 12 Jun 2006 08:22:42 +0200 , Michiel Sikma <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >I don't think that it "doesn't belong" in Linux. It's not a sin to use >proprietary software, nor is it a sin to work on Linux with different >operating systems. It's not like icons made on a Mac or Windows PC are >stolen wares or negatively connotated in any way. They're just icons. > >Myself, I'm simply a designer who's used to using Adobe's products, like >most others in this profession. I contribute to Ubuntu in my spare time, >and if I had to try and learn GIMP or Inkscape, I wouldn't have any time >left to contribute. And what are the real advantages of switching to >either of those programs? It won't make my art any better, but it will >make some people feel better, even though the users of the software >largely will not care or even know. > >I'm thankful, however, that a lot of people have responded to this by >saying that they're okay with the usage of proprietary software. I just >wanted to make sure that this list won't actively discourage users to >contribute if they do. It's actually this reason why I haven't started >contributing to Ubuntu since around the Hoary cycle. I just didn't feel >like I belonged in what seemed to be a small and strict community. > >Michiel > >-- >ubuntu-art mailing list >ubuntu-art@lists.ubuntu.com >https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-art > > -- ## #::.. http://www.doctormo.co.uk/ ..::# ## -- ubuntu-art mailing list ubuntu-art@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-art
Re: [ubuntu-art] A request
Op 12-jun-2006, om 9:43 heeft Billy het volgende geschreven: On Mon, 2006-06-12 at 07:41 +0100, Joao Inacio wrote: I have no clue what you're talking about that but if i'm correct (english isn't my first language) thats called zealotry? condemnation? zealotry? it's all the same name calling by those that claim we shouldn't do such ;) Keep it up, and use whatever you think it's better. Freedom is also about not forcing anyone to use free software. Oh that freedom word can be a lot of things. Including and not limited to supporting the other os's. How can someone say 'we are up against Vista' and use its software to improve its own os? Freedom? No! Lack of vision and principle! To me, it's productivity. Not that I use Vista or ever plan on doing so. I'm not going to respond to the rest of your mail, which seems to be almost solely to provoke a heated debate. I realize that I can't expect everybody to be sympathetic to my usage of proprietary software, but I'm glad most people are. Michiel -- ubuntu-art mailing list ubuntu-art@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-art
Re: [ubuntu-art] A request
Hi !
There's a difference between having your own opinion and not letting
other people have another one.
Someone mentionned religion (the Pope and Islam) : I think it's
perfectly right to defend what you believe in, and to let other people
know that their opinion is not the only one out there ("hey dude, come
and see about my religion, it's nice, and very different from yours"),
but what some guys are doing here looks very much like some kind of
"holy crusade" to me ("dude, believe in my god or I'll cut your head
off)".
Please chill, the main point of this team (if I understand it
correctly) is to made great artwork for Ubuntu, no matter what tools
you're using, isn't it ?
Cheers,
Manu
--
ubuntu-art mailing list
ubuntu-art@lists.ubuntu.com
https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-art
Re: [ubuntu-art] A request
On Mon, 2006-06-12 at 08:22 +0200, Michiel Sikma wrote: Billy wrote: > That pretty much sums it up for me. Doesn't matter if you make it in PS > or AI in a particular format. Doesn't belong in linux, and it's a shame > if it ends up here. I have AI, PS, and many others, but I won't buy them > anymore and I do not use them to make anything that ends up on your > linux desktop, heck I don't even use them anymore. I don't care if you > use it, as long as the art stays on the other platform. You call it > condemnation, but I call it common sense. If money was pumped into > Human, it would have gone a lot farther if put into inkscape and the > gimp while allowing tangerine to be the default ;) "Hey those icons look > great!"..."but they were made with PS on a mac", is absolutely silly. > Keep it in the family or take it somewhere else :D Wha?...ashamed of > your great OS? Myself, I'm simply a designer who's used to using Adobe's products, like most others in this profession. not an excuse I contribute to Ubuntu in my spare time, and if I had to try and learn GIMP or Inkscape, I wouldn't have any time left to contribute. oh well, it takes very little timeI did itagain, it is just an excuse. Add up all the times you have rebooted to get to the other and you would have already learned our own ;) Common sense! And what are the real advantages of switching to either of those programs? art from the OS the art is supporting? It won't make my art any better. yes it does but it will make some people feel better, no it won't even though the users of the software largely will not care or even know. that's why I'm thankful, however, that a lot of people have responded to this by saying that they're okay with the usage of proprietary software. this politically correct world is very sad indeed I just wanted to make sure that this list won't actively discourage users to contribute if they do. It's actually this reason why I haven't started contributing to Ubuntu since around the Hoary cycle. I just didn't feel like I belonged in what seemed to be a small and strict community. that was good Michiel On Mon, 2006-06-12 at 07:41 +0100, Joao Inacio wrote: I have no clue what you're talking about that but if i'm correct (english isn't my first language) thats called zealotry? condemnation? zealotry? it's all the same name calling by those that claim we shouldn't do such ;) Keep it up, and use whatever you think it's better. Freedom is also about not forcing anyone to use free software. Oh that freedom word can be a lot of things. Including and not limited to supporting the other os's. How can someone say 'we are up against Vista' and use its software to improve its own os? Freedom? No! Lack of vision and principle! -- ubuntu-art mailing list ubuntu-art@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-art
Re: [ubuntu-art] A request
On 6/12/06, Michiel Sikma <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Billy wrote: > That pretty much sums it up for me. Doesn't matter if you make it in PS > or AI in a particular format. Doesn't belong in linux, and it's a shame > if it ends up here. I have AI, PS, and many others, but I won't buy them > anymore and I do not use them to make anything that ends up on your > linux desktop, heck I don't even use them anymore. I don't care if you > use it, as long as the art stays on the other platform. You call it > condemnation, but I call it common sense. If money was pumped into > Human, it would have gone a lot farther if put into inkscape and the > gimp while allowing tangerine to be the default ;) "Hey those icons look > great!"..."but they were made with PS on a mac", is absolutely silly. > Keep it in the family or take it somewhere else :D Wha?...ashamed of > your great OS? I have no clue what you're talking about that but if i'm correct (english isn't my first language) thats called zealotry? I don't think that it "doesn't belong" in Linux. It's not a sin to use proprietary software, nor is it a sin to work on Linux with different operating systems. It's not like icons made on a Mac or Windows PC are stolen wares or negatively connotated in any way. They're just icons. Myself, I'm simply a designer who's used to using Adobe's products, like most others in this profession. I contribute to Ubuntu in my spare time, and if I had to try and learn GIMP or Inkscape, I wouldn't have any time left to contribute. And what are the real advantages of switching to either of those programs? It won't make my art any better, but it will make some people feel better, even though the users of the software largely will not care or even know. I'm thankful, however, that a lot of people have responded to this by saying that they're okay with the usage of proprietary software. I just wanted to make sure that this list won't actively discourage users to contribute if they do. It's actually this reason why I haven't started contributing to Ubuntu since around the Hoary cycle. I just didn't feel like I belonged in what seemed to be a small and strict community. Michiel Keep it up, and use whatever you think it's better. Freedom is also about not forcing anyone to use free software. -- João Inácio http://www.jcinacio.com -- ubuntu-art mailing list ubuntu-art@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-art
Re: [ubuntu-art] A request
Billy wrote: That pretty much sums it up for me. Doesn't matter if you make it in PS or AI in a particular format. Doesn't belong in linux, and it's a shame if it ends up here. I have AI, PS, and many others, but I won't buy them anymore and I do not use them to make anything that ends up on your linux desktop, heck I don't even use them anymore. I don't care if you use it, as long as the art stays on the other platform. You call it condemnation, but I call it common sense. If money was pumped into Human, it would have gone a lot farther if put into inkscape and the gimp while allowing tangerine to be the default ;) "Hey those icons look great!"..."but they were made with PS on a mac", is absolutely silly. Keep it in the family or take it somewhere else :D Wha?...ashamed of your great OS? I don't think that it "doesn't belong" in Linux. It's not a sin to use proprietary software, nor is it a sin to work on Linux with different operating systems. It's not like icons made on a Mac or Windows PC are stolen wares or negatively connotated in any way. They're just icons. Myself, I'm simply a designer who's used to using Adobe's products, like most others in this profession. I contribute to Ubuntu in my spare time, and if I had to try and learn GIMP or Inkscape, I wouldn't have any time left to contribute. And what are the real advantages of switching to either of those programs? It won't make my art any better, but it will make some people feel better, even though the users of the software largely will not care or even know. I'm thankful, however, that a lot of people have responded to this by saying that they're okay with the usage of proprietary software. I just wanted to make sure that this list won't actively discourage users to contribute if they do. It's actually this reason why I haven't started contributing to Ubuntu since around the Hoary cycle. I just didn't feel like I belonged in what seemed to be a small and strict community. Michiel -- ubuntu-art mailing list ubuntu-art@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-art
Re: [ubuntu-art] A request
On Sun, 2006-06-11 at 22:33 +0200, Étienne Bersac wrote: Hello, I don't condamn proprietary software users. But that's just as shame when people see Ubuntu coming with "great professionnal art software" such as Gimp and Inkscape, but artwork wasn't done with that tools. Does the pope preach for islam ? That pretty much sums it up for me. Doesn't matter if you make it in PS or AI in a particular format. Doesn't belong in linux, and it's a shame if it ends up here. I have AI, PS, and many others, but I won't buy them anymore and I do not use them to make anything that ends up on your linux desktop, heck I don't even use them anymore. I don't care if you use it, as long as the art stays on the other platform. You call it condemnation, but I call it common sense. If money was pumped into Human, it would have gone a lot farther if put into inkscape and the gimp while allowing tangerine to be the default ;) "Hey those icons look great!"..."but they were made with PS on a mac", is absolutely silly. Keep it in the family or take it somewhere else :D Wha?...ashamed of your great OS? -- ubuntu-art mailing list ubuntu-art@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-art
Re: [ubuntu-art] A request
- Original Message From: Étienne Bersac <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>To: Michiel Sikma <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>Cc: Ubuntu Art Sent: Sunday, June 11, 2006 4:33:24 PMSubject: Re: [ubuntu-art] A requestI don't condamn proprietary software users. But that's just as shamewhen people see Ubuntu coming with "great professionnal art software"such as Gimp and Inkscape, but artwork wasn't done with that tools. Doesthe pope preach for islam ? Regarding vectordrawing programs inkscape just doesn't cut it. As a bitmap editor, I can live with the Gimp but when it comes to creating vector images, I use exclusively Illustrator and Macromedia Freehand. Currently, I am experimenting with xara and I like it. But I guess we still have to wait a couple of more months till it's gonna be fully ported to linux. J. Mak -- ubuntu-art mailing list ubuntu-art@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-art
Re: [ubuntu-art] A request
El dom, 11-06-2006 a las 23:22 +0200, Kenneth Wimer escribió: > Hi all, > > I agree completely with Étienne, > > On Jun 11, 2006, at 10:33 PM, Étienne Bersac wrote: > > It is very important that we use a format such as SVG (originally > made by Adobe, I might add). SVG is a W3C standard. I think it was not originally made by Adobe. Perhaps they were the first to implement applications which use the format. > > Bye, > Ken -- ubuntu-art mailing list ubuntu-art@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-art
Re: [ubuntu-art] A request
Hi all, I agree completely with Étienne, On Jun 11, 2006, at 10:33 PM, Étienne Bersac wrote: Hello, I don't condamn proprietary software users. But that's just as shame when people see Ubuntu coming with "great professionnal art software" such as Gimp and Inkscape, but artwork wasn't done with that tools. Does the pope preach for islam ? Can you share you files between Illustrator and Inkscape or between Photoshop and Gimp ? I guess not without loss, using transitionnal format that wont allow a rocking collaborative work or using import plugin that don't support such or such functionnality. Consider the problem of format openness. Please don't consider Free Software as lesser software. A bunch of artists use that software to do rocking art. That's often a matter of habits. However, I'm not one of those guys who wants to enforce people to use free software. Just use open format readable and writable with free software included in Ubuntu. I'm not able to buy proprietary software license such as Photoshop nor Illustrator ! It is very important that we use a format such as SVG (originally made by Adobe, I might add). There are certain losses between, for instance, inkscape and AI...inkscape supports gradients (both stroke and fill) with transparency per stop, AI has a great set of filters and SVG effects (which actually do follow the svg spec but as yet are not supported by inkscape). As long as people who make artwork for open source software make sure that it also looks best and is editable in that same open source software, it really doesn't matter where it came from. In the meantime, I am an aritst who is always bitching about both AI and Inkscape :-) Bye, Ken -- ubuntu-art mailing list ubuntu-art@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-art
Re: [ubuntu-art] A request
Hello, I don't condamn proprietary software users. But that's just as shame when people see Ubuntu coming with "great professionnal art software" such as Gimp and Inkscape, but artwork wasn't done with that tools. Does the pope preach for islam ? Can you share you files between Illustrator and Inkscape or between Photoshop and Gimp ? I guess not without loss, using transitionnal format that wont allow a rocking collaborative work or using import plugin that don't support such or such functionnality. Consider the problem of format openness. Please don't consider Free Software as lesser software. A bunch of artists use that software to do rocking art. That's often a matter of habits. However, I'm not one of those guys who wants to enforce people to use free software. Just use open format readable and writable with free software included in Ubuntu. I'm not able to buy proprietary software license such as Photoshop nor Illustrator ! Wish we'll do a good work together :) Étienne. -- Verso l'Alto ! -- ubuntu-art mailing list ubuntu-art@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-art
Re: [ubuntu-art] A request
On 6/11/06, Michiel Sikma <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: There is one thing, however, that makes me a bit sour. On IRC in particular, I've noticed that there is a sort of detrimental attitude towards people who use proprietary software to contribute to Ubuntu. If someone is doing artwork for Ubuntu, chances are they're well aware of the free software alternatives. Instead of being antagonistic and pushing them away, why not just accept their contributions and spare them the flame wars so they can spend that time doing productive work instead? These people should also note that Launchpad is proprietary software. -- Niran Babalola http://niran.org -- ubuntu-art mailing list ubuntu-art@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-art
Re: [ubuntu-art] A request
On Sun, 2006-06-11 at 18:43 +0200, Michiel Sikma wrote: > I've been on the Ubuntu Artwork team for a little while now. It was fun > talking to everybody on the mailing list here and exciting to see my > proposal for usplash used in Dapper. I can't wait to begin seriously > contributing to Edgy and discussing how we should make it look great. > [...] > Ubuntu is not about limiting others to your choices. Ubuntu is also > about freedom of choice, and I feel that Ubuntu Artwork development > should be the same. I hope that you will understand. Thank you. > > Michiel > I agree with this, although I may not support and use proprietary software I am not going to disregard the creative work of those who may use that software. I think some of the issues Michael mentions also touches on several other issues that have been making themselves apparent here and there over the past few weeks. Could we please sort out the organisational issues at the coming meeting (hopefully to commence within the week) and then get rockin' on some artwork. Kind regards, Pascal signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part -- ubuntu-art mailing list ubuntu-art@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-art
