Re: [Ubuntu-be] Win8 will block dual-boot?
On Fri, Sep 23, 2011 at 10:35:26PM +0200, Sulumar wrote: I have doubts on the legality of that kind of strategie microsoft is trying to pull up Maybe such strategies may be considered as legal as is as long as nobody informed us that there really exist users rights and that we are authorized to defend them, to come up for them, to cry for help to our political instances (national or @ Europe)! This Win8 blocking dual-boot items requires to be followed until we're sure our rights as user are garented. Y P -- ubuntu-be mailing list / mailto:ubuntu-be@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-be
Re: [Ubuntu-be] Win8 will block dual-boot?
Microsoft does require that the hardware ships with UEFI secure boot enabled but it also states that it will support the unsecured boot process. If so then it's up to the hardware vendors to make it optional. http://tweakers.net/nieuws/76961/microsoft-secure-boot-blokkeert-andere-besturingssystemen-niet.html (dutch) On Fri, Sep 23, 2011 at 5:31 PM, Pieter Vande Wyngaerde pietervandewyngae...@gmail.com wrote: UEFI secure booting (part 2) via planet.debian.net: very good good article @ http://mjg59.dreamwidth.org/5850.html (Part 1 here: http://mjg59.dreamwidth.org/5552.html) from the article: These are the facts: Windows 8 certification requires that hardware ship with UEFI secure boot enabled. Windows 8 certification does not require that the user be able to disable UEFI secure boot, and we've already been informed by hardware vendors that some hardware will not have this option. Windows 8 certification does not require that the system ship with any keys other than Microsoft's. A system that ships with UEFI secure boot enabled and only includes Microsoft's signing keys will only securely boot Microsoft operating systems. ... The truth is that Microsoft's move removes control from the end user and places it in the hands of Microsoft and the hardware vendors. The truth is that it makes it more difficult to run anything other than Windows. The truth is that UEFI secure boot is a valuable and worthwhile feature that Microsoft are misusing to gain tighter control over the market. And the truth is that Microsoft haven't even attempted to argue otherwise. On Thu, Sep 22, 2011 at 7:03 AM, Jurgen Gaeremyn jurgen.gaere...@pandora.be wrote: Have a read here: http://www.zdnet.com/blog/microsoft/will-windows-8-block-users-from-dual-booting-linux-microsoft-wont-say/10772 Grtz, Jurgen. -- ubuntu-be mailing list / mailto:ubuntu-be@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-be -- ubuntu-be mailing list / mailto:ubuntu-be@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-be -- ubuntu-be mailing list / mailto:ubuntu-be@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-be
Re: [Ubuntu-be] Win8 will block dual-boot?
There was something similar a few months ago with a Cell Phone that was locked.The judge decided that the phone was designed for all mobile providers, therefore the mobile provider restricted the use of the device although it was intended to do more.Result: every person who wanted the device to be unlocked could ship it for free and the company had to unlock them.. Let us hope we get a better result in this case though.. Grts Wouter Vandenneucker Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2011 22:35:26 +0200 From: sulu...@gmail.com To: ubuntu-be@lists.ubuntu.com Subject: Re: [Ubuntu-be] Win8 will block dual-boot? I have doubts on the legality of that kind of strategie microsoft is trying to pull up On 2011-09-23 22:32, wouter Vandenneucker wrote: EPFSUG is already talking about shouting it out to some MEP's in order to make sure the rights of the users are guaranteed.. I guess this isn't the last we heard from it. (And that's a good thing!) Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2011 22:16:48 +0200 From: vinc...@mangelschots.org To: ubuntu-be@lists.ubuntu.com Subject: Re: [Ubuntu-be] Win8 will block dual-boot? Microsoft does require that the hardware ships with UEFI secure boot enabled but it also states that it will support the unsecured boot process. If so then it's up to the hardware vendors to make it optional. http://tweakers.net/nieuws/76961/microsoft-secure-boot-blokkeert-andere-besturingssystemen-niet.html (dutch) On Fri, Sep 23, 2011 at 5:31 PM, Pieter Vande Wyngaerde pietervandewyngae...@gmail.com wrote: UEFI secure booting (part 2) via planet.debian.net: very good good article @ http://mjg59.dreamwidth.org/5850.html (Part 1 here: http://mjg59.dreamwidth.org/5552.html) from the article: These are the facts: Windows 8 certification requires that hardware ship with UEFI secure boot enabled. Windows 8 certification does not require that the user be able to disable UEFI secure boot, and we've already been informed by hardware vendors that some hardware will not have this option. Windows 8 certification does not require that the system ship with any keys other than Microsoft's. A system that ships with UEFI secure boot enabled and only includes Microsoft's signing keys will only securely boot Microsoft operating systems. ... The truth is that Microsoft's move removes control from the end user and places it in the hands of Microsoft and the hardware vendors. The truth is that it makes it more difficult to run anything other than Windows. The truth is that UEFI secure boot is a valuable and worthwhile feature that Microsoft are misusing to gain tighter control over the market. And the truth is that Microsoft haven't even attempted to argue otherwise. On Thu, Sep 22, 2011 at 7:03 AM, Jurgen Gaeremyn jurgen.gaere...@pandora.be wrote: Have a read here: http://www.zdnet.com/blog/microsoft/will-windows-8-block-users-from-dual-booting-linux-microsoft-wont-say/10772 Grtz, Jurgen. -- ubuntu-be mailing list / mailto:ubuntu-be@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-be -- ubuntu-be mailing list / mailto:ubuntu-be@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu
Re: [Ubuntu-be] Win8 will block dual-boot?
devil's advocate-mode Well... to be completely honest... if you take the cell phone as an example... historically I've never been able to change the OS on my GSM. So in a certain way the same could be argued for computers... /devil's advocate-mode Hope the MEP's clear this one out, and MS hardware vendors start will grow a new conscience again... Maybe it's time (pre-emptive) to shout out in non-tech channels about the bad thing that MS is trying to pull off and how it will affect me and you and everyone... Here are some techniques that can be used: (and that marketing also use) - a photo of a crying baby has more effect than statistics on child mortality (use vivid examples, make it personal) - little near-future effects trigger more urgency than long-term bigger effects Obviously,there's also the option of FUD, but I agree that I'd rather not lower myself to that standard (even though it should be told if there actually is something to be afraid of). Just my 2-pence... Grtz, Jurgen On 09/23/2011 10:43 PM, wouter Vandenneucker wrote: There was something similar a few months ago with a Cell Phone that was locked. The judge decided that the phone was designed for all mobile providers, therefore the mobile provider restricted the use of the device although it was intended to do more. Result: every person who wanted the device to be unlocked could ship it for free and the company had to unlock them.. Let us hope we get a better result in this case though.. Grts Wouter Vandenneucker Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2011 22:35:26 +0200 From: sulu...@gmail.com To: ubuntu-be@lists.ubuntu.com Subject: Re: [Ubuntu-be] Win8 will block dual-boot? I have doubts on the legality of that kind of strategie microsoft is trying to pull up On 2011-09-23 22:32, wouter Vandenneucker wrote: EPFSUG is already talking about shouting it out to some MEP's in order to make sure the rights of the users are guaranteed .. I guess this isn't the last we heard from it. (And that's a good thing!) Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2011 22:16:48 +0200 From: vinc...@mangelschots.org mailto:vinc...@mangelschots.org To: ubuntu-be@lists.ubuntu.com mailto:ubuntu-be@lists.ubuntu.com Subject: Re: [Ubuntu-be] Win8 will block dual-boot? Microsoft does require that the hardware ships with UEFI secure boot enabled but it also states that it will support the unsecured boot process. If so then it's up to the hardware vendors to make it optional. http://tweakers.net/nieuws/76961/microsoft-secure-boot-blokkeert-andere-besturingssystemen-niet.html (dutch) On Fri, Sep 23, 2011 at 5:31 PM, Pieter Vande Wyngaerde pietervandewyngae...@gmail.com mailto:pietervandewyngae...@gmail.com wrote: UEFI secure booting (part 2) via planet.debian.net http://planet.debian.net: very good good article @ http://mjg59.dreamwidth.org/5850.html (Part 1 here: http://mjg59.dreamwidth.org/5552.html) from the article: These are the facts: Windows 8 certification requires that hardware ship with UEFI secure boot enabled. Windows 8 certification does not require that the user be able to disable UEFI secure boot, and we've already been informed by hardware vendors that some hardware will not have this option. Windows 8 certification does not require that the system ship with any keys other than Microsoft's. A system that ships with UEFI secure boot enabled and only includes Microsoft's signing keys will only securely boot Microsoft operating systems. ... The truth is that Microsoft's move removes control from the end user and places it in the hands of Microsoft and the hardware vendors. The truth is that it makes it more difficult to run anything other than Windows. The truth is that UEFI secure boot is a valuable and worthwhile feature that Microsoft are misusing to gain tighter control over the market. And the truth is that Microsoft haven't even attempted to argue otherwise. On Thu, Sep 22, 2011 at 7:03 AM, Jurgen Gaeremyn jurgen.gaere...@pandora.be mailto:jurgen.gaere...@pandora.be wrote: Have a read here: http://www.zdnet.com/blog/microsoft/will-windows-8-block-users-from-dual-booting-linux-microsoft-wont-say/10772 Grtz, Jurgen. -- ubuntu-be mailing list / mailto:ubuntu-be@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-be
Re: [Ubuntu-be] Win8 will block dual-boot?
Just a small correction: You can install W8 without overriding your drive just fine. It has the same partition wizard as W7 to do so. You are also able to dualboot W7, W8 and even any other linux distro. All the new system does is take you straight into the W8 choice screen, there you select your linux or other Windows OS and then your laptop/pc restarts and boots straight into the other OS. Was that the kind of overriding your drive you were talking about Wouter? If you meant the boot partition, it overrides that, yes. Jonas On 22/09/2011 8:40, wouter Vandenneucker wrote: i can back up the fact that you can't install win8 without totally overriding your drive. However, you can't keep another version of windows either. My guess is that it's just not finished atm. I don't think that microsoft will make it unavailable to install other MS systems. Some people just need multiple OSes (People who can't use their work version of win to do personal stuff etc..). If however they do block any other OS, I think that: a) Apple will find a way to sue them b) It takes about 4 weeks until it's hacked so Grub can be installed in front of MS Look at other electronics like PS3 etc.. it never took longer than 2 months of serious hacking attempts. This time however, we hold the key as it are OUR systems.. not some vendor locked devices.. Nevertheless I do look forward to see how things evolve. Win8 is imho far from ready, the difference between the new stuff and the remaining stuff from win7 is just to big. Win 7 windows have a glass look and have shadows surrounding them so it would look like there is depth to the system. Win8 on the other hand is just totally FLAT. No shadow or glossy look what so ever. I've seen it run on a friends pc and I really believe that it's even more inconsistent that Nautilus in Ubuntu 11.10 /personalNote Grts Wouter Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2011 07:03:11 +0200 From: jurgen.gaere...@pandora.be To: ubuntu-be@lists.ubuntu.com Subject: [Ubuntu-be] Win8 will block dual-boot? Have a read here: http://www.zdnet.com/blog/microsoft/will-windows-8-block-users-from-dual-booting-linux-microsoft-wont-say/10772 Grtz, Jurgen. -- ubuntu-be mailing list / mailto:ubuntu-be@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-be -- ubuntu-be mailing list / mailto:ubuntu-be@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-be
Re: [Ubuntu-be] Win8 will block dual-boot?
Well in de 'public beta' that I downloaded it only gave me 2 options:Update existing system swipe drive and reinstall from scratch.. Maybe they released another version by now? Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2011 10:07:17 +0200 From: jonasgeu...@gmail.com To: ubuntu-be@lists.ubuntu.com Subject: Re: [Ubuntu-be] Win8 will block dual-boot? Just a small correction: You can install W8 without overriding your drive just fine. It has the same partition wizard as W7 to do so. You are also able to dualboot W7, W8 and even any other linux distro. All the new system does is take you straight into the W8 choice screen, there you select your linux or other Windows OS and then your laptop/pc restarts and boots straight into the other OS. Was that the kind of overriding your drive you were talking about Wouter? If you meant the boot partition, it overrides that, yes. Jonas On 22/09/2011 8:40, wouter Vandenneucker wrote: i can back up the fact that you can't install win8 without totally overriding your drive. However, you can't keep another version of windows either. My guess is that it's just not finished atm. I don't think that microsoft will make it unavailable to install other MS systems. Some people just need multiple OSes (People who can't use their work version of win to do personal stuff etc..). If however they do block any other OS, I think that: a) Apple will find a way to sue them b) It takes about 4 weeks until it's hacked so Grub can be installed in front of MS Look at other electronics like PS3 etc.. it never took longer than 2 months of serious hacking attempts. This time however, we hold the key as it are OUR systems.. not some vendor locked devices.. Nevertheless I do look forward to see how things evolve. Win8 is imho far from ready, the difference between the new stuff and the remaining stuff from win7 is just to big. Win 7 windows have a glass look and have shadows surrounding them so it would look like there is depth to the system. Win8 on the other hand is just totally FLAT. No shadow or glossy look what so ever. I've seen it run on a friends pc and I really believe that it's even more inconsistent that Nautilus in Ubuntu 11.10 /personalNote Grts Wouter Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2011 07:03:11 +0200 From: jurgen.gaere...@pandora.be To: ubuntu-be@lists.ubuntu.com Subject: [Ubuntu-be] Win8 will block dual-boot? Have a read here: http://www.zdnet.com/blog/microsoft/will-windows-8-block-users-from-dual-booting-linux-microsoft-wont-say/10772 Grtz, Jurgen. -- ubuntu-be mailing list / mailto:ubuntu-be@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-be -- ubuntu-be mailing list / mailto:ubuntu-be@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-be -- ubuntu-be mailing list / mailto:ubuntu-be@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-be
Re: [Ubuntu-be] Win8 will block dual-boot?
Als ik het goed gelezen heb dan zijn de mensen met een gewoon BIOS nog 'veilig'. Heb je een systeem dat UEFI heeft dan kan het misschien zijn -nog niet officieel bevestigd- dat win8 op een win8-systeem zal 'embetant' doen. De mogelijkheden van UEFI gecombineerd met een dominantiedrang van Microsoft voorzien een toekomst om windows-only hardware op de markt te brengen en zo de groei van linux te belemmeren . (naast natuurlijk het gegeven dat ook windows-gebruikers minder vrijheden zullen hebben met deze systemen). De 'fout' ligt mijn inziens niet bij Microsoft: zij maken enkel gebruik van de mogelijkheden van UEFI. Tijd voor een GNU-antwoord op door UEFI gevangen hardware. -- ubuntu-be mailing list / mailto:ubuntu-be@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-be
Re: [Ubuntu-be] Win8 will block dual-boot?
Lets not flame Microsoft and spread FUD. They might do it but if we, as members of the FOSS community, want to keep up with our higher standards, we must stay reasonable and avoid cheap amalgams and over-simplification. It doesn't seems that Microsoft disallow the installation or booing of non-MS OSes, or even only Linux-based ones, on a Windows 8 machines. What seems to be the case, is that Windows 8 might require a security measure on these machine that may be practically incompatible with Linux and FOSS in general. I didn't dig the details, but the idea is that any software involved in the boot process will have to be digitally signed by a trusted Certification Authority (CA). Some distributions may be able to provides signed binaries in their package, but if the user cannot be its own trusted CA, then it will be impossible for a home-compiled software to be involved in the boot process unless a workaround (or hack) allow it to bypass this security measure. See http://boingboing.net/2011/09/21/anti-malware-hardware-has-the-potential-to-make-it-illegal-and-impossible-to-choose-to-run-linux.html Regards, PS: Note that the trust in trusted CA doesn't apply to who or what the user trust, but rather who the software and hardware vendors chose to trust to protect their very own interests. PPS: Mandatory link when speaking of security measures misleadingly branded as Trusted Computing: http://www.lafkon.net/tc/ -- Pierre mongolito404 Buyle -- ubuntu-be mailing list / mailto:ubuntu-be@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-be
Re: [Ubuntu-be] Win8 will block dual-boot?
If I recall correctly, this might be because you downloaded the W8+Tools (market, ...). The chart at the bottom of the download page told me something about overwriting the current OS so I chose the one without dev tools and got the same wizard as with W7 to choose a partition. If I was only given the choice to overwrite my current OS'es then I would've pressed that reset button faster than I ever did :p W8 isn't exactly an OS I see me using on a non-touch device. Jonas On 22/09/2011 10:13, wouter Vandenneucker wrote: Well in de 'public beta' that I downloaded it only gave me 2 options: Update existing system swipe drive and reinstall from scratch.. Maybe they released another version by now? Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2011 10:07:17 +0200 From: jonasgeu...@gmail.com To: ubuntu-be@lists.ubuntu.com Subject: Re: [Ubuntu-be] Win8 will block dual-boot? Just a small correction: You can install W8 without overriding your drive just fine. It has the same partition wizard as W7 to do so. You are also able to dualboot W7, W8 and even any other linux distro. All the new system does is take you straight into the W8 choice screen, there you select your linux or other Windows OS and then your laptop/pc restarts and boots straight into the other OS. Was that the kind of overriding your drive you were talking about Wouter? If you meant the boot partition, it overrides that, yes. Jonas On 22/09/2011 8:40, wouter Vandenneucker wrote: i can back up the fact that you can't install win8 without totally overriding your drive. However, you can't keep another version of windows either. My guess is that it's just not finished atm. I don't think that microsoft will make it unavailable to install other MS systems. Some people just need multiple OSes (People who can't use their work version of win to do personal stuff etc..). If however they do block any other OS, I think that: a) Apple will find a way to sue them b) It takes about 4 weeks until it's hacked so Grub can be installed in front of MS Look at other electronics like PS3 etc.. it never took longer than 2 months of serious hacking attempts. This time however, we hold the key as it are OUR systems.. not some vendor locked devices.. Nevertheless I do look forward to see how things evolve. Win8 is imho far from ready, the difference between the new stuff and the remaining stuff from win7 is just to big. Win 7 windows have a glass look and have shadows surrounding them so it would look like there is depth to the system. Win8 on the other hand is just totally FLAT. No shadow or glossy look what so ever. I've seen it run on a friends pc and I really believe that it's even more inconsistent that Nautilus in Ubuntu 11.10 /personalNote Grts Wouter Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2011 07:03:11 +0200 From: jurgen.gaere...@pandora.be mailto:jurgen.gaere...@pandora.be To: ubuntu-be@lists.ubuntu.com mailto:ubuntu-be@lists.ubuntu.com Subject: [Ubuntu-be] Win8 will block dual-boot? Have a read here: http://www.zdnet.com/blog/microsoft/will-windows-8-block-users-from-dual-booting-linux-microsoft-wont-say/10772 Grtz, Jurgen. -- ubuntu-be mailing list / mailto:ubuntu-be@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-be -- ubuntu-be mailing list / mailto:ubuntu-be@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-be -- ubuntu-be mailing list / mailto:ubuntu-be@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-be
[Ubuntu-be] Win8 will block dual-boot?
Have a read here: http://www.zdnet.com/blog/microsoft/will-windows-8-block-users-from-dual-booting-linux-microsoft-wont-say/10772 Grtz, Jurgen. -- ubuntu-be mailing list / mailto:ubuntu-be@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-be
