[Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information
Although I do agree that some of the comments are a bit harsh, I also fear that if enough people do not squawk, and squawk loudly, this will be dropped. Many of the devs have come on here and shrugged this off with the statement, You have a way to get the old functionality back so what is the big deal. How long will the ability to get the old functionality back remain if no one squawks? If no one squawks, will the gconf hack still work in the next release or two? The big deal is that the old functionality wasn't broken. Why change it. If we squawk loudly enough can we get the ludicrous idea of a POPUP or POPUNDER crushed under a train where it belongs and go back to the nice unobtrusive but persistent notification? I don't care if a popup or popunder comes up and does my entire days work for me automatically. If I didn't open the window, it shouldn't be there. -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information
Peter: An apology is irrelevant, IMO, and I think that Mark has been *remarkably* loyal to an idea and a developer that are totally off the beam on this issue. I'm continually amazed that people keep finding this bug, since every effort has been made to squelch it, from renaming it from the original title that the change was wrong, to assigning it as Fix Released against the NULL project (https://launchpad.net/null), which is a stand-in for we can't physically remove this annoyance from our bug tracker to shut people up. And yet there are over 260 comments on it, almost none of which are in favor of the change. As so many people observe, the salient point is the simple need for a form of persistent notification. That is, unfortunately, conflated in the minds of others with dynamic placement of control icons for running programs, e.g., Pidgin, Skype, and VMware, in the notification area. None of which do I find objectionable, and for none of which have I seen an alternative proposal, but they are still outside the scope of the basic need for persistent notification. -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
Re: [Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information
There was one dev that came here and stated (and to which I agree) that if the devs kept listening to everyones complaints Ubuntu wouldn't have changed since 4.10. There are those that are truly resistant to change and constantly badger devs because they didn't get what they wanted. On that note, I think people are trying to bash these devs in, like their the unlikely participants in a whack-a-dev game. I'm not totally liking that theres no persistent notification of updates (through an Icon or whatever), but like all ubuntu releases there are changes that people have to get used to. It sometimes feels like theres people who think they're the only one that matters when opinions about changes are made, not thinking about all the other users who _may_ like this feature. Although it appears as if I'm on the side of a lot of people on here, I really wish the personal attacks on devs would stop. It's just not right. ~Brian Research is what I'm doing when I don't know what I'm doing. --Wernher Von Braun The second law of thermodynamics: If you think things are in a mess now, JUST WAIT!! On Mon, Apr 27, 2009 at 8:30 AM, getut rtklu...@ngkceramics.com wrote: Although I do agree that some of the comments are a bit harsh, I also fear that if enough people do not squawk, and squawk loudly, this will be dropped. Many of the devs have come on here and shrugged this off with the statement, You have a way to get the old functionality back so what is the big deal. How long will the ability to get the old functionality back remain if no one squawks? If no one squawks, will the gconf hack still work in the next release or two? The big deal is that the old functionality wasn't broken. Why change it. If we squawk loudly enough can we get the ludicrous idea of a POPUP or POPUNDER crushed under a train where it belongs and go back to the nice unobtrusive but persistent notification? I don't care if a popup or popunder comes up and does my entire days work for me automatically. If I didn't open the window, it shouldn't be there. -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a direct subscriber of the bug. -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information
Mark Shuttleworth wrote on 2009-03-27: Nothing like a healthy debate. Mark Shuttleworth on 2009-03-27 update-notifier (Ubuntu Jaunty) status: Confirmed → Won't Fix Sorry, but it doesn't seem like you want a debate. I'm just a plain old user of Ubuntu, and I highly disagree with the change. -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information
If you want to see how average users disagree with the change as well, just visit ubuntuusers.de: http://ikhaya.ubuntuusers.de/2009/03/31/update-notifier-und-die- heimliche-revolution-in-jaunty/ (German) ** Description changed: I am referring to the removal up the update-notifier in the Gnome notification area. The discussion of it is embedded in the thread headed by: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu- devel/2009-February/027416.html Specific messages worth reading are: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2009-February/027434.html https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2009-February/027451.html https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2009-February/027454.html https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2009-February/027437.html https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2009-February/027445.html Matthew Paul Thomas says that the desired behavior is: * When there are security updates, Update Manager will open and show them (plus any other available updates) within a day. * When there are non-security updates, Update Manager will open and show them *one week* after it was last opened (whether it was last opened manually or automatically, and regardless of whether updates were actually installed then). * When there are no available updates, Update Manager will not open automatically at all. Desired by whom? And where was discussion of this change that effects the entire Ubuntu community? Because some percentage of users don't apparently understand that the notification area has meaning, we are not going to use it for updates? Chow Loong Jin raised a valid point that if update notification is now done by opening the entire update manager program, perhaps evolution and similar should open their application UIs rather than use the notification area. And there are concerns about unintended functional consequences of this ill-conceived change, discussed in the thread. Personally, I predict that opening the Update Manager window while people are working will piss off a lot of users when it happens, and may - result in them wanting to disable automatic checking. Yes, that'll be + result in them wanting to disable automatic checking. Yes, that'll be highly desirable, won't it? In other words, this change should be corrected, and a notification icon should be displayed when updates are available. 1]To disable the new behaviour and get the old behaviour use: gconftool -s --type bool /apps/update-notifier/auto_launch false Take into account that this gconf change is not supported. 2]To have the update manager launch immediately when updates are - available,use this: + available, use this: - $ gconftool -s --type string /apps/update- + gconftool -s --type string /apps/update- notifier/regular_auto_launch_interval 0 -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information
Sorry, I did not read all the comments, but here are my 2 cents: I honestly thought I might have a virus when the Update Manager came up, and did not trust it as a valid application. This is very strange behavior, and will be quite a shock to anyone who has used a previous version of Ubuntu, or has the common sense that normal, non-malicious application windows do not normally open themselves. How exactly is the novice supposed to know this window is ok, but the one asking to scan their system for viruses is not? -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information
I'm afraid I'm another user against this change but enough people has already started very good arguments. The only reason I post now is to point out what someone must surely already have spotted, that the Ubuntu Desktop Edition web page (here http://www.ubuntulinux.org/products/WhatIsUbuntu/desktopedition) information needs updating. This page has a section called Quick and easy updates that describes an excellent idea for a notification icon! -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information
I find it quite novel that the page Paul references[1] has this quote: Quick and easy updates The task bar contains an update area where we'll notify you when there are updates available for your system, from simple security fixes to a complete version upgrade. The update facility enables you to keep your system up-to-date with just a few clicks of your mouse. Yet, Matthew has described the previous method as[2]: (2) Using a notification icon to advertise updates is a bad idea first because it's not obvious, and second because it makes installing the updates gratuitously difficult. The two statements, presumably both from Canonical (correct me if I'm wrong), seem to be in direct conflict with each other. From personal experience I tend to favor the information currently found on the site Paul references[1]. [1] - http://www.ubuntulinux.org/products/WhatIsUbuntu/desktopedition [2] - https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/update-notifier/+bug/332945/comments/135 -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information
Good spot Paul - i just opened bug 367411 for that -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information
I had thought this was just a bug in the beta version, but I did not know which package to report it against. Now I've read this and I am totally outraged by this deliberate regression. As for Mark Shuttleworth's ludicrous assumption that only coding experts want the previous default behavior, it shows a distinct need to get out more. I am not a coder, and I'm not a particular fan of pasting half- understood unsupported (talk about brazenness!) commands into a terminal, but I do want a system that works. This sort of half-baked dogfood belongs in some PPA so that it can be properly criticized, not in a release. Then we could have had the discussions about the Settings button on Update Manager not doing what it says and so on in a proper way. Instead of devs coming on here and arrogantly marking things as Invalid and Won't Fix, they should pause for a moment and realize that they have abused process to create a mess. The correct response would be to apologize to the users and issue the old version as a security fix (after all, it delays vital updates!), whilst restarting the development process after a more community-oriented fashion. If such an apology is not forthcoming, we should concluded that the devs concerned's injection of code that sabotages functionality is malicious, that is to say a virus rather than a bug, and we should seek to have their write access to the repos withdrawn. -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
Re: [Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information
James Dowden wrote: I had thought this was just a bug in the beta version, but I did not know which package to report it against. Now I've read this and I am totally outraged by this deliberate regression. As for Mark Shuttleworth's ludicrous assumption that only coding experts want the previous default behavior, it shows a distinct need to get out more. I am not a coder, and I'm not a particular fan of pasting half- understood unsupported (talk about brazenness!) commands into a terminal, but I do want a system that works. This sort of half-baked dogfood belongs in some PPA so that it can be properly criticized, not in a release. Then we could have had the discussions about the Settings button on Update Manager not doing what it says and so on in a proper way. Instead of devs coming on here and arrogantly marking things as Invalid and Won't Fix, they should pause for a moment and realize that they have abused process to create a mess. The correct response would be to apologize to the users and issue the old version as a security fix (after all, it delays vital updates!), whilst restarting the development process after a more community-oriented fashion. If such an apology is not forthcoming, we should concluded that the devs concerned's injection of code that sabotages functionality is malicious, that is to say a virus rather than a bug, and we should seek to have their write access to the repos withdrawn. @James... a bit too harsh there pal... i'm one among the users who are vocal here , against the new change, but asking the devs for an apology, is way out there!!! i'm sure the devs wanted to improve the OS, but maybe this just wasnt a good move, but atleast we have the gconf options. -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
Re: [Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information
On Sun, 2009-04-26 at 21:38 +, mac_v wrote: a bit too harsh there pal... Harsh? Perhaps. But given the comparative levels of user frustration and development intransigence, the frustration is understandable. asking the devs for an apology, is way out there!!! Absolutely not. At this point, I'm starting to think that a contrite mea culpa is the only way forward. People make mistakes. Most of the time, admitting and accepting and moving on is the best approach. But sometimes, when an error is upheld for so long by the errant party, well, the errant party should apologize. Up to this point, I've tried to confine my responses to pointing out the obvious flaws in the Jaunty approach, to proposing alternatives, and to suggesting how the process for introducing these changes could have perhaps been improved. Not because of any inner saintliness, but because I've spat vinegar a time or two and I've learned the hard way how much it gets done. But the development team response from SABDFL on down has been so poor in this area that I'm starting to think vitriol is all we have left. So, yeah, I think we, the Ubuntu community deserve an apology for how this was introduced, for how it was clung too dogmatically in the face of so much opposition of such quality, and for simple intransigence. I don't think asking for apology is off base at all. pww -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information
please disable the popup update manager window , couz its really useless, and very-very annoying uuuh it give me high temper . :( who is giving the idea of this popup , i thing he never working -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information
though i'm not a fan of these pop-unders, if any one wants to have the update manager launch immediately when updates are available,use this $ gconftool -s --type string /apps/update- notifier/regular_auto_launch_interval 0 the default is set to 7 days, but when this key is set to 0 the updates will be notified immediately... this should be available in the update settings tab! why are the devs making updates so difficult! ** Description changed: I am referring to the removal up the update-notifier in the Gnome notification area. The discussion of it is embedded in the thread headed by: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu- devel/2009-February/027416.html Specific messages worth reading are: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2009-February/027434.html https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2009-February/027451.html https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2009-February/027454.html https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2009-February/027437.html https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2009-February/027445.html Matthew Paul Thomas says that the desired behavior is: * When there are security updates, Update Manager will open and show them (plus any other available updates) within a day. * When there are non-security updates, Update Manager will open and show them *one week* after it was last opened (whether it was last opened manually or automatically, and regardless of whether updates were actually installed then). * When there are no available updates, Update Manager will not open automatically at all. Desired by whom? And where was discussion of this change that effects the entire Ubuntu community? Because some percentage of users don't apparently understand that the notification area has meaning, we are not going to use it for updates? Chow Loong Jin raised a valid point that if update notification is now done by opening the entire update manager program, perhaps evolution and similar should open their application UIs rather than use the notification area. And there are concerns about unintended functional consequences of this ill-conceived change, discussed in the thread. Personally, I predict that opening the Update Manager window while people are working will piss off a lot of users when it happens, and may result in them wanting to disable automatic checking. Yes, that'll be highly desirable, won't it? In other words, this change should be corrected, and a notification icon should be displayed when updates are available. To disable the new behaviour and get the old behaviour use: gconftool -s --type bool /apps/update-notifier/auto_launch false + To have the update manager launch immediately when updates are + available,use this: + + $ gconftool -s --type string /apps/update- + notifier/regular_auto_launch_interval 0 + + Take into account that this gconf change is not supported. ** Description changed: I am referring to the removal up the update-notifier in the Gnome notification area. The discussion of it is embedded in the thread headed by: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu- devel/2009-February/027416.html Specific messages worth reading are: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2009-February/027434.html https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2009-February/027451.html https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2009-February/027454.html https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2009-February/027437.html https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2009-February/027445.html Matthew Paul Thomas says that the desired behavior is: * When there are security updates, Update Manager will open and show them (plus any other available updates) within a day. * When there are non-security updates, Update Manager will open and show them *one week* after it was last opened (whether it was last opened manually or automatically, and regardless of whether updates were actually installed then). * When there are no available updates, Update Manager will not open automatically at all. Desired by whom? And where was discussion of this change that effects the entire Ubuntu community? Because some percentage of users don't apparently understand that the notification area has meaning, we are not going to use it for updates? Chow Loong Jin raised a valid point that if update notification is now done by opening the entire update manager program, perhaps evolution and similar should open their application UIs rather than use the notification area. And there are concerns about unintended functional consequences of this ill-conceived change, discussed in the thread. Personally, I predict that opening the Update Manager window while people are working
[Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information
a good workaround for this should be to change update manager add/remove software by package kit -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information
Oi, this is surely not going well... -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information
I can not even begin to describe how annoying and unneeded that change is, its a step back in usability. Just look at all the comments in the bugreport. Revert this, and whoever signed off on that change should be spanked, hard. -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
Re: [Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information
Il giorno ven, 24/04/2009 alle 09.43 +, hurga ha scritto: Revert this, and whoever signed off on that change should be spanked, hard. I would not want _these persons_ to be spanked. In any case ubuntu developers have done an extremely good job across the years. Dapper was nothing more than a toy, if compared to other distributions. A toy with an idea. Now I am _entirely_ against this change, but I understand that they have reasons for that. -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information
+1 here, I'm not against the popup / pop-under / pop-taskbar idea. But I like the notification icon, too. I would opt for keeping the old behaviour and adding a checkbox or something, so people can choose between whatever they like, the default being this new behaviour. -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information
I just want to add my concern about this change. I think the popup/under whatever alone is not a good idea. This will either be a distraction while trying to get work done, or get lost under all my windows. I would definitely want to turn that pop up off if possible. The upgrade/security update icons that I have gotten accustomed are very subtle and acts as a reminder to update the computer. This was the first thing I noticed missing in this release that I didn't like. Also there was another post that I total agree with about teaching their mom to look for those icons to upgrade the computer I couldn't agree more. I converted my parents to Ubuntu this last summer on Hardy Heron, but for a lot of reasons was thinking about upgrading them to Jaunty. One of the biggest things is keeping their computer up to date. I just tell them, when you see the icon in the notification area, click on it, and do it. And now to tell them, just wait for some popup or like once in a while remember to open the update manager would not work for them. -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
Re: [Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information
Just to give my two cents on the subject: I'm in favour of keeping the notification icon for a simple reason. Someone (I don't remember if Mark or someone else) mentioned, from what I got, that the notification area has been used by applications, and to avoid confusion we should remove it from there. So, the problem is not the area itself, it's the applications! The notification area is there to give notifications, if the applications are using it too much then (using this argument) the applications should be using something else, not the notifications. This is the same as changing your address because you are receiving too much junk mail. My suggestion (and I know this isn't something to be decided in a couple of days) is to keep two areas, one for applications that run in background and want to hide from the window list, like pidgin, network manager, skype, power manager, bittorrent, etc. (citing the list in my desktop right now), and another area for notifications, like updates, new mail, or whatever else needs my attention at some point in the near future (I liked the patient notifications mentioned before). If someone wants to keep both together, just put both areas in the same place. But I'm in favour of an option to keep the notification icon, so that everyone can choose the behaviour. If you think usability dictates the use of a pop-under window, keep this option default, but I'm used to that, as is a lot of people around, and I'd love to keep it there. And this is the behaviour that people migrating from some other major OSs are used to. Well, that's my opinion. I didn't read all the two hundred and something comments on the subject (I over-read the eighty first and been following the last couple of days), but I think this could be considered. -- Jonatan Schroeder, MSc. Teaching Assistant, PhD Student UBC - Computer Science jona...@cs.ubc.ca - http://www.cs.ubc.ca/~jonatan The box said: Requires MS Windows or better, then I installed GNU/Linux! -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information
It occurs to me that notification changes should have been handled in the same way as upstart changes, the availability of ext4. compiz effects, etc. In other words, do the work, enable the capability, but don't turn it on. Not yet. Certainly don't make it the default! Get it going, then invite people to test it. For example, have something like both systems in place: The updates-are-available icon would remain *and* the new sliding black widget would appear - it would say something like updates are available, as is a new notification system - click here to kick tires. (Obviously, this particular approach is half-baked - I'm just making the suggestion.) It's an oft repeated but seldom fully understood development cliche: Prototype, then throw away the prototype once you know what you are doing. And Ubuntu will best thrive when it properly balances top-down dictates with bottom-up designs. In this case, I think we need more prototyping and more bottom-up/top- down balance. -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information
Wow, this was completely unnecessary. I stumbled across this bug just today after installing Jaunty last night, and decided to check Update Manager and I had loads of updates which weren't being displayed. No notification, no information whatsoever that there were updates available. I cannot imagine why getting rid of an updates _notification_ in a _notification area_ was reasonable. This is very annoying. -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information
Roshan: That is a separate issue - see bug #356152 for more details. -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information
I've read bug #356152, if in addition the new scheme is buggy and unfinished, please, please, go back, revert the gconf variable for jaunty and rethink for karmic. I'm really convinced it's a very critical and visible part of the system, if it's not really clean and clear, it's not a good thing for the whole ubuntu system and it's image. -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
Re: [Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information
I believe Roshan was talking about the notificaion area: I cannot imagine why getting rid of an updates _notification_ in a _notification area_ was reasonable. This is very annoying. Maybe you should read his post again. Jonathan Davies wrote: Roshan: That is a separate issue - see bug #356152 for more details. -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
Re: [Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Stanislaw Pitucha wrote: Yeah... affects me too. why doesnt canonical add a voting system where the users can vote for a feature... the new notification system is good, but poorly planned... the *devs could have held off the app push atleast until the update manager had options as proposed* in the Notify-osd wiki... -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iEYEARECAAYFAknsLC0ACgkQ8QR4RbuR48CHlQCfVrknW3p0dhBSygoJIuGMAHQc ekAAn0Igj5Vv/D8ju1PtdU2IAgsiYti6 =Uu7C -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information
I think it's amazing that almost every single post on on this bug doesn't want this new method, and thats just the people who have taken the time to find/write a bug report and yet what the users wanted is as good as ignored pop up/under box's are evil if a window pops up with out there been a reason for it e.g i've just clicked a dialog I assume its an pop under/over from a webpage and it gets closed before its even loaded a simple notification bubble been shown every x min is more then enough to notify a user to update with out intruding on the users desktop I also use ubuntu for a digital photo/media frame i built so having a dialog pop up is going to ruin a fantastic photo frame -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
Re: [Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information
2009/4/20 mac_v drkv...@yahoo.com: why doesnt canonical add a voting system where the users can vote for a feature... http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/ Just because something is popular, doesn't make it right. -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
Re: [Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information
2009/4/20 mac_v drkv...@yahoo.com: why doesnt canonical add a voting system where the users can vote for a feature... http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/ Just because something is popular, doesn't make it right. I'm not sure building a feature everybody dislikes is better... -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
Re: [Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information
Alan Pope wrote: http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/ Just because something is popular, doesn't make it right. @alan i'v know about brain storm... but its for new ideas and implementation... i suggest for voting already implemented new features... i understand that popular doesnt mean right... * but right or wrong doesnt have to be forced down peoples throats * ... this new feature is not fully functional as proposed in the https://wiki.ubuntu.com/NotifyOSD#Update%20Manager without the settings available, * the user has no control over the updates* , its just the default 1 week display for the updates other than security updates... the whole problem is the incomplete implementation of a good idea... wouldnt it have been better to leave the update manager alone until u could have made the settings available? notify-osd as a whole is incomplete, but to break the update settings for the notify-osd is what the users dont understand... -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
Re: [Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information
xpd259 wrote: a simple notification bubble been shown every x min is more then enough to notify a user to update with out intruding on the users desktop +1 ^ this is a lovely idea... xpd i hope u can add this to the notify-osd comments section -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information
We need at least some permanent notification of updates, reboot required and application restart required. These can be flashed up using the new system but in addition to a permanent notification. -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
Re: [Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information
s/everybody/a vocal minority/ Regarding the number of duplicates and comments, I don't believe it's a vocal minority. And regarding all the opposition, maybe a kind of survey would be nice to be sure the feature is benefic to Ubuntu users or not. At least I find it's premature to enable this behaviour for Jaunty, the few feedback is negative and no positive feedback has been reported as far as I know... -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information
Dear friends, Please excuse me for not reading everything before asking this question. I've just reported a bug which turns out to be a duplicate of this one. Now, what I reported was that I don't get notified of upgrades. So again, I'm sorry that I'm not going to read everything here. I just want to know now; am I supposed to be notified of available upgrades in jaunty or not? If yes, then how? Because I don't see it. Many blessings. -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
Re: [Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information
2009/4/20 Philippe Escarbassière phil_...@club-internet.fr: I'm not sure building a feature everybody dislikes is better... s/everybody/a vocal minority/ -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information
a vocal minority? Take all ubuntu users: - leave only jaunty testers - leave only people who actually noticed that anything is wrong - take away people who don't usually report bugs at all those people will be a minority for sure and they are vocal, because they report bug. Everyone commenting on bugs here is a part of a vocal minority, yet bugs are fixed, right?. This issue is pretty popular on forums and brainstorm right now, but I haven't seen anyone agreeing that the change is good so far. Looks like a good approximation of everyone to me... -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information
Sorry, I really want to be precise here: not leave only people who actually noticed that anything is wrong but leave only people who noticed that there are updates available, but there is no update icon -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
Re: [Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information
+1 please do a survey or make a poll available for users to vote. There are currently about 20 bugs with (from what I see) the majority of the people complaining about it. This is not a minor thing. -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
Re: [Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information
Il giorno lun, 20/04/2009 alle 09.27 +, Alan Pope ha scritto: I'm not sure building a feature everybody dislikes is better... s/everybody/a vocal minority/ This comment is anti-scientific. Either you invent a survey and convince users (ubuntu or launchpad users, and it makes a difference already) to take it, or you stick with the only numbers that we have now. V. -- It is also important to note that hedgehogs do not actually hurt each other when they get close to one another. Actually, when living in groups, hedgehogs often sleep close to each other. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hedgehog%27s_dilemma -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information
a vocal minority... that it's too much for me ! I'm not sure it's ubuntu to treat your alpha/beta/rc testers in this way. How many comments and how many duplicates will it take for you to realize that you are wrong (and jaunty is not yet released)? Many people took the time to argue to prove you that you're wrong, are you deaf ? Don't listen your users/testers/contributers and I'm sure you'll solve bug #1... I'm very disappointed. -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
Re: [Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information
xpd259 wrote: a simple notification bubble been shown every x min is more then enough to notify a user to update with out intruding on the users desktop @Matthew Paul Thomas , Alan Pope consider this idea instead of the pop-under... i understand this is not immediately possible, but hope u could consider it into future development... u have a nice notification system, so rather than using the pop-under, use the notify-osd for the update notification... u guys already have a proposal for the actions keys in the notify-osd for situations where it is absolutely required, so just have a single button for the user to choose update now , and making the notify-osd stay longer for these update notification... so they end up being less intrusive than the pop-under windows and atleast have an option for the reminder , x mins , which users can choose from... i think is might be a good idea for consideration... -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
Re: [Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Alan Pope wrote: 2009/4/20 Philippe EscarbassiÚre phil_...@club-internet.fr: I'm not sure building a feature everybody dislikes is better... s/everybody/a vocal minority/ yeah maybe we are the minority who think that they can improve this linux flavor , but signing up for an account , and submitting/commenting on a bug report... rather than *the will be majority * of people who * would dump Ubuntu * for some other linux flavor , if the devs continue to have such an attitude... why have the comments section for the 'vocal minority' ? and just not cut the comment[vocal] section out which make the minority less of a bother to devs...! -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAknsYOgACgkQ8QR4RbuR48Dk0QCgmxINZfCKa3+Xm1bIbA+EvhW6 kUgAnRQpIxiFycdY3JHfu7t6UDFLjwN+ =Ul3n -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
Re: [Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information
Alan Pope wrote: 2009/4/20 Philippe EscarbassiÚre phil_...@club-internet.fr: I'm not sure building a feature everybody dislikes is better... s/everybody/a vocal minority/ yeah maybe we are the minority who think that they can improve this linux flavor , but signing up for an account , and submitting/commenting on a bug report... rather than *the will be majority * of people who * would dump Ubuntu * for some other linux flavor , if the devs continue to have such an attitude... why have the comments section for the 'vocal minority' ? and just not cut the comment[vocal] section out which make the minority less of a bother to devs...! -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information
It would be helpful, I think, if people could try not to use devs or developers here as if all the Ubuntu developers got together and decided this. The notify-osd system was designed and implemented by Canonical and they should get the credit/flames for it. Developers are also users and in this case there are many developers who are for the change and many who are against it. Lumping them all together is perhaps a bit of a disservice to people who had nothing to do with the change. Regarding Alan's vocal minority statement. While he was perhaps a bit to concise for a heated topic, he has a fairly good point. We can't take this bug report (19 dups and 221 comments now) as solid proof that the majority of users don't like the changes. The big reason is that only people who don't like the change are going to file a bug about it so we're specifically collecting the no votes without really any collection of the yes votes. That makes things like this bug report not very useful for knowing just how many people are in favor of the new system. Statistically, 221 no votes is a distinct minority of users and so the claim that a feature everybody dislikes is probably not very valid. That is not to say however, that all the no votes are irrelevant or not considerable. At this stage of the game we're about 2 months too late to do anything about this for Jaunty. Bottom line, this is the way it is for Jaunty. I filed bug #338501 about a month ago to get simple notifications of updates as they were detected but it didn't make it for Jaunty. There are a lot of bugs to fix and with only a limited amount of time it's hard to get to them all. So I think it would really help if people got away from this bug report to more constructive places to discuss the notify-osd design as we look ahead to Karmic Koala. As I've already pointed out, https://lists.canonical.com/mailman/listinfo/ayatana-project is a good spot. -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information
simple answer .. unofficial answer but here is a poll http://www.doodle.com/h7shad47ffgpxpyq -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
Re: [Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information
Il giorno lun, 20/04/2009 alle 14.37 +, xpd259 ha scritto: simple answer .. unofficial answer but here is a poll http://www.doodle.com/h7shad47ffgpxpyq Am I reading Mark Shuttleworth voting for the old-style notification? Perhaps a poll with launchpad authentication would be better... v. -- It is also important to note that hedgehogs do not actually hurt each other when they get close to one another. Actually, when living in groups, hedgehogs often sleep close to each other. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hedgehog%27s_dilemma -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
Re: [Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information
@Jonathan I didn't speak about developers. I'm a developer myself and I try not to bash other developers and respect their work. But I listen to users feedback too. In this case, even if 221 votes are not a proof (plus other forum posts and wiki comments), it's clearly an indication this new behavior is not welcome to everybody. That's why I find this change premature. And some other constructive comments posted here are very good argument against it too. Now, since it's too late to revert a default gconf value, let's see how this feature/bug will be accepted by Ubuntu community and, if it's clearly rejected, let's hope next bug reports like this one will be taken more seriously. -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information
+1. I dislike not having the Update Notifier. In two weeks on Jaunty I have never noticed an update notice. Not once. That's bad IMHO. -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information
** Project changed: ubuntu-release-notes = null -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
Re: [Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information
2009/4/20 xpd259 xpd...@gmail.com simple answer .. unofficial answer but here is a poll http://www.doodle.com/h7shad47ffgpxpyq Well, it's conclusive, obviously - 25 people have voted in favour of the old system so far, including Bill Gates, The Real Slim Shady and the Big Bird off of Sesame Street, versus only 2 people for the new style notification. -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information
Now, since it's too late to revert a default gconf value Really? This is probably the only issue I've seen through the last couple of releases that affects everyone, in everyday usage scenarios, was security related (security updates might go unnoticed) and was disagreed with that much. Maybe I just missed some discussions, but this is the first one in ~3 years as far as I'm aware. This issue will not die for the next year or so. After the release the number of duplicates will just start increasing. -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information
Philippe, if we made only changes that were welcome to everybody, we wouldn't have changed anything since Ubuntu 4.10. -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
Re: [Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information
Vincenzo Ciancia wrote: Il giorno lun, 20/04/2009 alle 14.37 +, xpd259 ha scritto: simple answer .. unofficial answer but here is a poll http://www.doodle.com/h7shad47ffgpxpyq Am I reading Mark Shuttleworth voting for the old-style notification? Perhaps a poll with launchpad authentication would be better... v. Brainstorm would be preferable here... Therer are already two ideas: http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/idea/19283/ http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/idea/18460/ Second one is my failed attempt at making a preemptive strike. Also wish to add my voice to the negative side here. The only good reason to go through with this is if it would indeed increase security, and make people more likely to install updates. I don't see this step helping that... A random window lying around (since it's opened in the background) will be closed, since this is not a normal way to notify people of updates. People are used to either focused dialogs, notification icons, or notification bubbles for this kind of information. And if people have to re-learn to be able to handle this behaviour as it is intended, then it has obviously failed. If we really wanted to take a step on security we would enable automatic security updates by default... This, is in my opinion an uneccesary step, which annoys without actaully acheiving what is intended. But then again I am writing here, so it doesn't really count. - Arand -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
Re: [Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information
On Mon, 2009-04-20 at 15:01 +, Philippe Escarbassière wrote: @Jonathan I didn't speak about developers. I'm a developer myself and I try not to bash other developers and respect their work. But I listen to users feedback too. I wasn't picking you out in particular, I'm just hoping to avoid a bunch of stupid Ubuntu devs stuff. However, I think it's worth noting that Ubuntu developers do listen a lot to user feedback. The problem is that listen doesn't always mean do whatever a user wants. I've been trying to play it fairly neutral here, but perhaps it's worthwhile to say a few personal things. I was an early vocal critic of notify-osd, Dx team, etc. I had a few discussions with mpt on IRC about update-notifier/update-manager specifically. I called up the Ubuntu Community Manager and let him know what I thought and echoed a lot of the general sentiment on this bug report. The conversation was fruitful I think and I was told that much was being done to address the community feedback. In response to a lot of user and developer feedback quite a few changes are planned for Karmic Koala. One of the biggest problems I had with what happened in Jaunty is that notify-osd was landed so late in the development release cycle that very little in the way of corrections or polish could be done. However, Mark and several others felt that it was important to get the work that had been done out to users for testing and feedback. We'll just have to see how it works out. In this case, even if 221 votes are not a proof (plus other forum posts and wiki comments), it's clearly an indication this new behavior is not welcome to everybody. That's why I find this change premature. And some other constructive comments posted here are very good argument against it too. Yes, it is clear it isn't welcome by everybody, and unfortunately that is a fairly common occurrence in a project this large with as diverse a user population as we have. We have numerous examples (NetworkManager being one that seems sort of similar) where a consensus can take a very long time to achieve, if ever (there are still replace NM with wicd polls on the forums). I honestly think notify-osd was premature for Jaunty and wish it was put off until Karmic as a default. But that decision isn't up to me, and that's probably a good thing :-) There are a lot of good comments on the bug report, which is why I'm trying to direct people towards better places to put those constructive comments. Now, since it's too late to revert a default gconf value, let's see how this feature/bug will be accepted by Ubuntu community and, if it's clearly rejected, let's hope next bug reports like this one will be taken more seriously. I agree that we'll just have to wait and see, but I do firmly believe that these bug reports *are* taken seriously. I know many of the people involved, mpt, Mark, tedg, pitti, etc. and I can tell you that they very much take constructive comments seriously and are very interested in the user experience. I don't always agree with their decisions/implementations but I'm very confident in their skill and desire to make Ubuntu the best it can be. -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
Re: [Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information
On Mon, 2009-04-20 at 15:34 +, Matthew Paul Thomas wrote: Philippe, if we made only changes that were welcome to everybody, we wouldn't have changed anything since Ubuntu 4.10. s/everybody/most people/ or s/everybody/majority of users/ as I think the original intention of everybody was meant to be and I think your assertion is wrong. Trying to be absolutely literal with people's wording is not helping anyone. -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information
Auch - just found something nasty... The bad change (at least according to the changelog): * make auto_launch update-manager mode the default (as asked for by the DX team) was done / packaged on Mon, 23 Feb 2009 20:47:37 +0100 While feature freeze was on February 19th and UI freeze was on March 5th? Does it mean we've had ~2 weeks (and that was still before the Beta) to actually notice and object to the change? Isn't that a bit kafkesque? Or maybe I misunderstand when was the time window when it was possible to protest? -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information
Am I totally misunderstanding this issue??? As I understand it / complained / bug reported... I think most people don't care whether the notification comes in the form of the new notify- osd system or the old way with the orange spiked ball or red arrow that show up on the panel. The issue I think MOST people are quite irritated with is the decision to go with a popup or popunder which is just plain evil. I don't know of anyone... ever who has liked such a thing. Secondary to that issue is that there is no PERSISTENT notification of updates once that window is closed which is most suredly will be. I think everyone would say whole-heartedly... go ahead with the notify- osd system, but don't open a window and don't remove the persistent notification on the panel. -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information
I apologize in advance for the length of this post. @Matthew, Sorry it's taken so long for me to respond, work and life became a bit demanding. (1) Yes, it is more obtrusive, that's entirely deliberate, and I don't know what study you're referring to. While study may be the wrong word to use, from Mat Tomaszewski's post[1] to ubuntu-devel: Again, I'd like to reiterate the main point: we have a good reason to believe that persistent indicators only work for some very specific cases (examples being network connection, volume, etc). We are now going through long and painful process of carefully defining these cases. It is early days, and there can be reconsiderations. So please be patient and forgiving :) Where is this good reason, can we see the same raw information that brought the developers to what seems to be an erroneous conclusion? Access to this information was already requested in Jordan Mantha's post[2]: Again, I'd like to reiterate that the trust us, we have our reasons is not going to be very convincing to many people. I keep getting this sort of double-speak feeling when the same team is having to keep pushing both we know what were doing and we're just starting to figure this out so bear with us. If you really do know what you're doing, patches welcome. If you're still not sure yet, maybe you should consider waiting until Karmic before making such huge changes. and Scott Kitterman's[3]: References please and ktp420[4] as far as I can tell: Can please provide studies which show and helped in your conclusion that system tray is heavily overused. (2) Using a notification icon to advertise updates is a bad idea first because it's not obvious, and second because it makes installing the updates gratuitously difficult. As others have pointed out, I have no idea what you're on about. Sure, the first time a user sees the update icon they may not know what it is or does. However, from that point on, it's extremely handy and useful. I still remember when I first saw it. Sure, I wondered what it was. However, once I found out what it was, I immediately fell in love with how unobtrusive and useful it was and wanted it on all my systems. How exactly does it make installing the updates gratuitously difficult? (3) Using a notification icon to advertise that a restart is required is a bad idea first because it's not obvious, and second because it makes restarting gratuitously difficult. I would say that using a notification icon to notify the user that a restart is required is *precisely* the correct thing to do. It isn't an advertisement, attempting to phrase it as such strikes me as a play on words to avoid calling it a notification. The only definition for advertise that comes close to what is being done in this case is an obsolete definition[5]: 4. Obsolete. to give notice, advice, or information to; inform: I advertised him of my intention. A much more appropriate term would be to notify or inform. Which is, as I understand it, the purpose of a notification area. How, does it make restarting gratuitously difficult. Philippe, if we made only changes that were welcome to everybody, we wouldn't have changed anything since Ubuntu 4.10. Please point to any other change, that was in the end beneficial with as many people reporting duplicates and such a consensus against it. For example, applications have been asking for over 25 years whether you want to save changes to documents, but that's always been nonsense and should be fixed eventually. What? I would, and do, much prefer my editor to ask than to assume that a change is desired, especially if it doesn't inherently provide a means to revert the change post closure. Why? I may have opened the document to review something and accidentally made changes (wrong window focused, inadvertent keystrokes, etc). If I'm asked to save when I close and haven't intended to make changes, I opt not to save. [1] - https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2009-February/027582.html [2] - https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2009-February/027596.html [3] - https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2009-February/027604.html [4] - https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/update-notifier/+bug/332945/comments/168 [5] - http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/advertise -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information
First of all, I see a problem with defaults. Whenever an application wants to inform the user of something, or get feedback on something, it should use bubbles... that much makes sense. But when it NEEDS something, when something is so urgent that you would go through all this trouble to make absolutely sure a user acts on its notification, then why is it not done automatically? Of course, I know there is a major problem with this; specifically a large chunk of the user community (myself included!) don't want our system updating automatically, and hate things that change under our feet with a burning passion. But we are all advanced users. The entire update process (waiting for a time when computer activity is low, clicking a button, watching it contact repositories, reviewing selected updates, watching the downloads and installations) are useless to those people who don't know what any of these things mean. They just want to do work, and have a secure system. So how about this: under installation settings, there is an advanced button. Under there, add a new checkbox for Automatically update this computer that allows power users to easily control and monitor their setup, but keep it checked by default, so that normal users never have to worry about this. I use Ubuntu because it is the operating system that requires the minimum amount of configuration to get everything running well enough to do my work. The pop-under system is harder to reconfigure, and achieves the stated goal (getting people to update) far less effectively then doing it automatically. -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information
If you want users who cannot handle a notification icon to update the system, then a pop-up window might not be any better, because every regular window that pops up somewhere is closed without reading by default by at least 90% of the users. For those users, an automated update process should be default. That is way more efficient than a pop- up window. Everyone else will just keep handling updates as he has done so far, and a constant reminder is just exactly what you need. And that in turn is exactly what the notification area is for. It may be overloaded by apps, but (as was said before, but I want to emphasize it again) update notifications are _the_ message that need to go there. I would always close the pop-up window, because I don't want to update right now and I don't want it sitting in my Alt+tab list and then forget about the update. What is also forgotten is that ubuntu already has a large user base which do not know much about their OS. As several people here already exemplified, they will be irritated by this new behavior. I think, the best compromise would be to have the old behavior as standard, and if no update takes place after a fixed amount of time, then remind the user additionally with a pop-up window. -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information
Additionally, I think the current procedure opens a huge security leak. If people get used to pop-up windows asking for updates, it will be no problem imitating these pop-up windows with java-script and make them look exactly the same. And since you are used to entering your password when you update the system, the user will not even get suspicious if they have to enter it. Or is this issue somehow being taken care of? On the other hand, with the current system, nobody from outside the computer can just put an icon into the notification area. This is only possible, if the malware is on the computer, but then it's too late anyway. -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information
I have to add my vote here, because this is a big thing for me. Pop-up/under windows are something we were fighting with until 2-3 years ago - please don't bring them back in any form. I'm not sure what the notification overload problem is about. There are exactly 3 permanent notification on my desktop - IM, music player, battery + some temporary ones like updates. These things just belong there. There's no other place for them and now devs are suggesting getting rid of those icons. Is there a better way to show them? If yes, then why isn't it introduced *before* update notification icon is removed. I'm not sure who wants a full window for those apps (especially battery status). Current change is just wrong and not customisable (you can tell people that gconf == customisable all you want, but first you will have to tell them what gconf does and how to use it). How many people have to mark this regression as affects me too before the change gets reverted? Poping up update notifier is bad (as explained many times above), because users don't expect it, will not notice it and will close the window to remove the annoyance. Yeah... affects me too. -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information
I also think this is not a good decision. Windows that pop up are never good, no matter for what purpose and whether they are pop-ups or pop- unders. As Osliner I too explained everybody how to update their system if the red notifier showed up, and that worked well for them. Personally I also like the old system. 1. I usually do not update immediately if I am in the middle of something but instead wait until I have time. 2. If a windows opens out of my control then I consider that a loss of freedom. 3. I would probably click away the window and wait with the update until I have time for it. 4. If there is no further notification I will most likely forget about the update (thus the need for a permanent icon) 5. There is a similar thing on windows when after the update process the restart notification pops up every 5 min. to remind me that I have to reboot. I have been hating that ever since it has been introduced. I know here the situation is less obtrusive but still comparable. And I do not like it. 6. I can not understand the discussion about tasks not belonging into the notification area. For me the notification area has 3 purposes: * First it is a place to quickly access running applications (like Skype or Pidgin) which I do not want to have in the foreground all the time. * Second it is a place to make changes to (interact with) the system, like volume control (or graphic control etc.) and get feedback from the system (like Battery status, system status). * And third it is a place holder for things that need my attention (like available updates, required reboots and restarts). So the notification area as the name says does some important things: It gives notifications to the user and lets the user interact with them (For example the Pidgin icon notifies me if I'm online or not and lets me quickly call the main window to chat with my friends or change the online status when I am offline). UNLIKE the new notification system it is a way for PERMANENT notification and interaction where as the new notification systems intention is for NON PERMANENT notifications for which it does not matter if the uses notices them or not, like volume change, wireless connection, display brightness. If the user misses one, It does not matter usually. Also the new notification system was deliberately designed to be non interactive which is good. However If there is a state in the system that does not only require us to inform the user ONCE but PERMANENTLY then the new notification system is not the right thing (it can still do the FIRST notification), instead we need something in the notification area. Now If you really think that some users (mostly those that do not care about how their system works and who are not experts), then I suggest doing the following: 1. I would no matter what restore the icons in the notification area (update available, restart required, package manager working etc, everything that belongs to this system). 2. The update manager can still appear the first time there is the need for an update, but then the user should explicitly be informed about it and be given the choice whether he wants to have this window pop up automatically or not. 3. Add an option in the Software sources-Updates tab. Like: [ ] Automatically display update manager every 7 days if updates available. [ ] Automatically display update manager every 24 hours if security updates are available. These can be unchecked by default and the user is queried the first time updates manager is opened. @Mark: I think the reason why people are so upset about this change is not because of the change itself but because this change violates a very important believe of the Linux community: bThat you always have a choice./b There has just been announced the a href=http://video.linuxfoundation.org/video/1106;winner/a of the Linux Foundations ad competition. The most important message is: Do you know you have a choice? and I think many feel they didn't have a choice here. If you want to do this. Then do it in a way that gives people the option to keep the old behavior (without doing some hacks on the CLI). -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information
I run many Ubuntu stations in a production environment and my users are heavily limited in what they can and can't do. Machines sign on automatically and users are NOT given the password for the account. All updates are done via script or manually via SSH from IT. Now with this version I am either going to have to hack around a poorly thought out update or put up with a million questions from users about why update manager keeps opening up and the users can't do anything with it other than close it. How we are NOTIFIED of updates is really irrelevant and most people probably won't care one way or another. But opening update manager or any other program automatically is not a notification. It is the beginning of the update process itself. Notification should be DISTINCTLY different than the actual update process. It should be noticeable but not obnoxious. -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information
Documented in the release notes at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/JauntyJackalope/ReleaseNotes#Change%20in%20notifications%20of%20available%20updates. ** Changed in: ubuntu-release-notes Status: New = Fix Released -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information
getut, if updates were being advertised to people who couldn't possibly install them, that was a bug regardless of whether they were being advertised with a window or an icon. Please report the bug if you haven't already. Thanks! -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information
On Thursday 16 April 2009 15:41:49 getut wrote: I run many Ubuntu stations in a production environment and my users are heavily limited in what they can and can't do. Machines sign on automatically and users are NOT given the password for the account. All updates are done via script or manually via SSH from IT. Your users run as plain USERs not as ADMIN right? So why would they even get an option to refresh the package list? -- Hi, I'm BUGabundo, and I am Ubuntu (whyubuntu.com) (``-_-´´) http://LinuxNoDEI.BUGabundo.net Ubuntu LoCoTeam Portugal http://ubuntu-pt.org Linux user #443786GPG key 1024D/A1784EBB -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information
Matthew and BUGabundo, in our environment since multiple users were not needed, we chose to go with a single user install with automatic signon...so it is the default and only user account on the system. This means it is admin but the users are NOT given the password for the account. I use modified hal policies to lock out removeable drives, CD's and DVDs. We SSH into the boxes with the same user account to do updates either manually or scripted. -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information
okay, here is my little experience with this new system: I upgraded my girlfriends and her sisters computer, not because i wanted to put a beta system on there computer, but some drivers where better. it doesnt matter here anyway. What happened is that they didn't update their system in the last 2 weeks.. how come? because, i showed them how to update when they had the little orange icon, but now they were just disturbed by some crazy pop up windows, so they just closed it.. I updated my pc manually, but simple user who doesnt care about these things wont. So whats the point? to make users have their systems outdated or what? this is not user friendly at all. Osliner -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information
Jan Claeys: Google wanted Web apps to be able to put icons in the notification area in HTML 5. http://lists.whatwg.org/pipermail/whatwg- whatwg.org/2009-March/018722.html That request has been turned down for now, but it's possible they'll attempt the same thing with browser extensions. mac_v: People who prioritize keeping their system running as long as possible over installing restart-required updates will have that issue regardless of how Ubuntu asks them to restart. ami_nakata: Not only is it an implementation detail whether an automatically-opening window is from a newly-running application or an already-running application, it's an implementation detail whether *any* window is from a newly-running application or an already-running application. Automatic window example: You and the other complainants in this bug report would be no happier about the updates-available window opening automatically if it was part of Nautilus (which was already running) than part of Update Manager (which was not). Manual window example: The Settings button in Update Manager opens a window that's powered by a separate application (Software Sources), but people don't care or need to care. For references on why just-in-time proactive help is better than passive help, see http://mail.gnome.org/archives/usability/2006-March/msg00248.html. (Clippy was just a spectacularly poor implementation.) If it helps you understand the use cases for automatically opening windows, mentally replace the shorthand the system needs to with people will benefit most if the system will. And we take the user's attention allocation very seriously; that was one of the themes of my presentation on the new notification system at UDS. BUGabundo and Brian Curtis: The messaging menu is intended for messages from external agents, mainly humans. Using it for system stuff would confuse its meaning. -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
Re: [Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information
On Tue, 2009-04-14 at 09:26 +, Matthew Paul Thomas wrote: ami_nakata: Not only is it an implementation detail whether an automatically-opening window is from a newly-running application or an already-running application, it's an implementation detail whether *any* window is from a newly-running application or an already-running application. I think the point here is not to try to draw lines in the sand about who/what is opening windows but why they are being opened. A window that opens because I did something or because it's relevant to an application I am using is expected and non-intrusive. A window that opens that has nothing to do with what I am doing at the moment presumes that what it wants done is more important than what I am doing because it feels like it can interrupt *my* time to deal with it. That's just rude. To analogize to a real life situation... I may be with a group of people discussing something and it's perfectly fine for any one of those people to start talking and offer opinion on the conversation -- that is not interruption, but it is absolutely not alright for somebody to come interrupt the group to tell us about his family vacation last summer. It would be alright for somebody to come interrupt us to tell us the building we are in is on fire, but IMHO, update notification is not analogous to the building is burning down. That's why it belongs off to the side, as an unobtrusive icon I can notice and take action, when it's convenient for me. -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information
man, I really liked the notification icon - it should be put back (or the option to do so) - CH -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information
why not shove that into the indicator applet (messaging menu) ? -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
Re: [Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information
A few suggestions i'd like to add, -maybe they should popunder, then if the X is clicked push it to the messaging menu -the user then controls priority (its popped under as a high priority item), then if nothings done (an X (close) is clicked) it lowers in priority to the messaging menu -maybe high priority items that get closed (or not acted upon), can request a different color dot on the indicator applet, (or at least a more noticable change to the icon) Just a few suggestions that takes into account both sides of this issue, please disect this as you see fit. -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information
@Peter: I love your idea, but regarding your last comment: I'd rather provide a checkbox (un-checked by default) for the »remind me again later« option since users are used to getting two options (OK and Cancel). A dialogue offering three options is rather confusing and unusual in the first place and could lead to fast clicks on the wrong button. -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information
@Matthew (MPT): Matthew, I'd like to highlight some of the things you've written about user-interface design that directly inform this controversy: You wrote above: Brian, whether an automatically-opening window is from a newly-running application or an already-running application is, ideally, an implementation detail. It surprises me that anyone with experience or training in user- interface design would write that. The first is a distraction away from one's current intention, and the second is an assist in accomplishing one's current intention. In terms of the user's subjective experience they're opposites. The difference is so great that, far from being 'an implementation detail', as you put it, this surely needs to be a *policy* matter. Consonant with the belief you assert above, you say at https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2005-August/009960.html, (Matthew writes:) ... even with optimally usable software you'll still need a help function. Just-in-time proactive advice would work better than passive help, and that's true for all kinds of help, not just security. (“Using a table works better than lining up text with spaces. To make a table, choose 'Table' from the 'Insert' menu.” ) 'Just-in-time proactive advice' is a good thing? Was there *anyone* who didn't disable that annoying-as-hell “proactive” talking paper-clip help feature that was included in Word a few years back? And are there more than three people that can type who don't find the autosuggest word- completion 'feature' many word-processing programs employ distracting and annoying? I bring up the reference to point out that your user-interface design philosophy favors lots of active intervention that I think belongs more appropriately in a user-initiated interactive tutorial. You just don't seem to understand how much users hate being distracted from their work, how greatly we resent having our attention forcibly and repeatedly re- directed by programmers. Further, you referred me to https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu- devel/2009-February/027568.html where you, ( Matthew wrote: ) If your hard disk starts to fail, the system needs ... If someone is trying to call you over IM, the system needs ... If you're on the Internet and there's a software update to fix a security vulnerability, the system needs ... If three months ago you set a calendar alarm for today, the system needs ... I imagine you might dismiss what I'm about to say as a nicety of semantics, but it's relevant here to observe that 'the system' does not 'need' anything at all. Software and hardware don't have needs; *people* have needs. ( But I think the term 'wants' would be more helpful than 'needs' here. ) Your statement about what should happen when there's a software update available, then, comes down to two things: (1) What the person who wrote the “listening for updates” program wants, and (2) What the user wants. And that, in my opinion, is the root of the conflict over this issue. I wrote earlier that developers should at least include a 'Don't show this message again' check box in the window you want to initiate when updates are available, and that if the user checks that box, the system should then employ the Hardy/Intrepid update behavior. In reply, you, Matthew wrote: Providing the ability to turn them off would imply either that they weren't necessary in the first place, or that there was a different but similarly effective way to present them. If we thought either of those things were true, we wouldn't be doing this in the first place. That's entirely consonant with your distaste for programmers who 'placate people with options', as you put it at http://mpt.net.nz/archive/2008/08/01/free-software-usability. But your statement above does make the core issue clear, doesn't it? If we remember that people have wants and computers don't, the issue of whether to include such a check box comes down to whose wants are going to be honored here, re the disposition of the user's attention, yours or those of the user? More emphatically, the fundamental question is: Who has veto rights over how the user's attention is directed? Matthew, you clearly think *you* should. We users think *we* should: they're our computers and, more to the point, it's our attention. It's as if someone who frequently interrupts you wanted to remove the door to your office so you can't close it against him because he's sure he knows better than you do what you need to do or listen to. You're using software to tell users, “I'm going to repeatedly force you to listen to me for your own good, regardless of your opinion as to the importance of what I have to say.” It really disappoints me that Canonical staff seem incapable of understanding why that makes so many people angry. -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug
Re: [Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information
Peter Whittaker wrote: On Wed, 2009-04-08 at 19:55 +, Mark Shuttleworth wrote: I think it's important that we not treat the OS specially, Mark, thanks for your comments. I think this one area where there is considerable disagreement: The OS is different - when the computer needs to tell me something, I probably shouldn't ignore it. Think firealarm. Yes, that's true. But there are some apps that have fire alarms too - imagine, for example, an app which monitors your RAID array and alerts you to failures and issues. My point is that we should have clear guidelines about what constitutes each mode of operation, and we should follow those as rigorously with the OS as we would hope apps do, as well. As soon as we make exceptions for ourself we are weakening our argument, a bit like politicians who give themselves raises and take their expenses out of the public eye at the same time as they are ridiculing bankers for their pay. I *think* we're in agreement here :-) Mark -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information
What can _we_ do to get an acceptable system behavior? It was really hard for me to tell my mother that the update icon won't appear anymore. She really got used to it. Big pop-ups would seriously confuse her. I agree with Mark that the notification area is used by too many applications. Why not trying to create two notification areas. One for the system (volume control, network manager, update manager, trash bin) and one for user applications (pidgin, evolution, rhythmbox). Please don't do it like M$ who make the users deal with at least 5 pop-ups per hour. -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
Re: [Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information
Il giorno gio, 09/04/2009 alle 07.38 +, Mark Shuttleworth ha scritto: My point is that we should have clear guidelines about what constitutes each mode of operation, and we should follow those as rigorously with the OS as we would hope apps do, as well. I dreamed of clear guidelines for the notification area for a long time. I have strong arguments in favour of modification to the behaviour chosen for jaunty; anyway I appreciate the fact that the window will be minimised. I would be happy if a bit more discussion, with use cases, and maybe numbers, would be done for jaunty+1, including the community. Not all of us have the time to try to become a developer, but all of us are very fond of our distribution and would like to see it in perfect shape. What would be the place to participate in the design of the notification-area related changes? Vincenzo -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
Re: [Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information
On Thu, 2009-04-09 at 08:38 +0100, Mark Shuttleworth wrote: Peter Whittaker wrote: The OS is different - when the computer needs to tell me something, I probably shouldn't ignore it. Think firealarm. Yes, that's true. But there are some apps that have fire alarms too - imagine, for example, an app which monitors your RAID array and alerts you to failures and issues. Ah! Now you are thinking like a technologist and not a user, differentiating between the OS and applications based on whether they are kernel or user space, as opposed to what they actually do! From the perspective of many - I would think most - users, something that monitors RAID - or monitors anything about the state of the computer for that matter - is not an application, it's part of the computer. In that view, applications are things users start to get the computer to do what they want to do: email, IM, edit video, etc. My point is that we should have clear guidelines about what constitutes each mode of operation, and we should follow those as rigorously with the OS as we would hope apps do, as well. If you read my comments on the wiki page, you'll see I make clear distinctions between system and user notifications: Let's apply that distinction consistently. A user notification is a doorbell, it appears in the user notification area, near where the user keeps their stuff. A system notification is a firealarm and appears in the system notification area, where other systemy things are. Both use the same underlying technologies - API calls that bring up bubbles - but the presentation is different: firealarms and doorbells are presented differently and both are different from normal apps. As soon as we make exceptions for ourself we are weakening our argument And foolish consistency makes a poorer system. Think back to the lack of PageUp/PageDown under OpenStep on the Next boxes, because Steve Jobs held the view it was a screen, not a page. So arrow keys giving you a line at a time were the only way to scroll. Jobs was being 100% consistent in his view, and missing the point that ScreenUp/ScreenDown would have been handy. I *think* we're in agreement here :-) Actually, not so much. Hence all of the on-going debate on this. It's one thing to see a design, another to see the implementation. Some of us saw the design and said cool. Many of us saw the implementation and said Whoa, not cool. -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
Re: [Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information
Peter Whittaker wrote: If you read my comments on the wiki page, you'll see I make clear distinctions between system and user notifications: Let's apply that distinction consistently. A user notification is a doorbell, it appears in the user notification area, near where the user keeps their stuff. A system notification is a firealarm and appears in the system notification area, where other systemy things are. So, a user notification is something like John emailed you, and a system notification is something like Your network disappeared? Mark -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
Re: [Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information
Vincenzo Ciancia wrote: What would be the place to participate in the design of the notification-area related changes? Join the Ayatana team mailing list on Launchpad! Mark -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information
'Ello, I wish to register a complaint! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e6Lq771TVm4 That is exactly how I feel, you are trying to sell me some stone dead parrot. We are trading our notification icon in the well known notification area for some flashing button in the window list at the other side of the screen. I really appreciate all the love and work Mark Shuttleworth and the Developers put into Ubuntu, so please don't get me wrong but this design initiative looks like another Monty Python skit on it's own. -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information
Having read the whole thread I am adding my voice to do this. I believe that the decision to remove the notification icon was a mistake. Here are my arguments. 1) System tray is a guarantee of authenticity -- If you're trying to solve bug #1, then you should pay attention to the fact that Windows users expect system notifications to come from the system traynot some window that is in their user stack and is decorated the same way as their users windows. In fact, Windows users have come to distrust such windows. Believe it or not, even the It Just Works user attaches a degree of flakiness to windows that automatically open. This is why there are pop- up blockers in every single web browser. For whatever reason, users, not just power users but It Just Works users too, consider pop-ups are a bad thing (TM). Many now almost instinctively close windows they did not specifically request to be opened. I am talking about Windows users here ---Mac users are probably used to the Software Update automatic pop-up. And I don't think the self-minimizing window fully addresses this point. This is not to say that users are idiots and won't understand the Ubuntu system, which is more like Mac OS. But if you're trying to draw users away from Windows, the system tray as an authoritative source of updates is one thing that they have down. 2) Lack of persistence. --- Under the new system, if I cannot update right away, and the window disappears for whatever reason---I click on X to make it go away without reading it, or I have to reboot---then I have to wait to apply the updates. I would say that especially if there is a critical security flaw, the system ought to have a way to persistently communicate the immediate availability of a fix to the user. The old notification icon did that, but the new system does not allow for persistence in the same way. 3) Futility --- I understand the desire to lead by example. But looking at my notification area right now, all I see is network manager and my battery is charging notifier. No crowding---just useful notifications that ought to be there. The real crowding problem is from user apps, not the system---amaroK, the old transmission, whatever else---that abuse the notification area. Are you going to block all those applications from using the area? I didn't think so. The end result is that the notification area's crowdedness will vary depending on the applications a user chooses. So your solution is to effectively ditch the notification area---since so many applications *might* be using it, then I'll just give up on it altogether. First of all, how do you know this is not a power user problem? My suspicion would be that the It Just Works user doesn't have that many icons in the area. Second, why throw out the baby with the bathwater? Literally the most useful icon the area---the one that tells me if there is an *immedate fix* to something that could break my computer---is now gone. 4) Choose your battles We all have gotten used to the update icon. We look for it, we use it, we rely on it. Yes, change is necessary. Yes, change is hard on the existing user base. But you have limited capital here. Too many changes, and you will alienate too many users. You have to pick which battles to fight. Is this one really so important that *this* is where you wish to expend so much capital, in the face of so much resistance from you base? How about something different, like a global hotkey system that actually works? -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information
Pausanias, the notification area is not a guarantee of authenticity in either Windows or Ubuntu. In both OSes it can be used by third-party applications, including malware. And in both OSes the vendor is clamping down on third-party use, though in different ways. We're at an advantage, because most Ubuntu applications are Free Software, so we can patch them and send those patches upstream. Microsoft has to resort to more code and interface bloat: a dialog listing all notification icons past and present, with options to prevent them appearing in future. http://howtogeek.com/howto/windows-vista/clean-up-past-notification- icons-in-windows-vista/ We did not make this change with the idea that it would be a battle, but in the knowledge that it's better done sooner than later. -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
Re: [Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information
On Thu, 2009-04-09 at 11:41 +0100, Mark Shuttleworth wrote: Peter Whittaker wrote: If you read my comments on the wiki page, you'll see I make clear distinctions between system and user notifications: Let's apply that distinction consistently. A user notification is a doorbell, it appears in the user notification area, near where the user keeps their stuff. A system notification is a firealarm and appears in the system notification area, where other systemy things are. So, a user notification is something like John emailed you, and a system notification is something like Your network disappeared? Yes, exactly. They are different events, different types of events, and need to be handled differently. If I ignore the doorbell, chances are I've missed a friend or a chance to donate to a worthy cause; chances are I'll have another chance at either/both. If I ignore a firealarm, well, it's not the sort of thing you do more than once, is it? So John emailed you appears ephemerally in the user notification area (mentally, I'm viewing this as bottom-right, where the bubble fades up from the bottom, stopping with its bottom edge attached to the bottom bar). Your network disappeared appears in the system notification area, using the same mechanism (my little mental picture is bubble fading down from the top right, stopping with its bottom edge attached to the top bar). If necessary, they can decorated with something akin to traffic signals (yellow triangles for suspicious conditions, red octagons for serious conditions, etc., though I would like this to be configurable). Generally, user notifications are ephemeral, allowing us to ignore them; the one obvious exception is a user-triggered reminder, that is, a reminder of a ToDo, meeting, etc., entered by the user. (Preference allows the user to make buddy or email notifications, etc., persistent if they want, and all user notifications are user configurable.) System notifications fall into three classes: The always ephemeral, the always persistent, and the ephemeral-but-may-signal-a-problem. Your battery is about to die, save your work is persistent (using the model I described previously - appear, then sink beneath the focused window, reappearing as focus rises). Important updates are available is also persistent. Always ephemeral would include Your battery is fully charged, you are now connected to network N, etc. Trickier are ephemeral-but-may-signal-a-problem: You are now disconnected from the network may or may not be a problem. Chances are, you undocked your laptop. But if you aren't on a laptop, chances are this is a problem. I'm of at least two minds as to how to resolve this. My first - and distinctly inelegant - inclination is to periodically remind the user (You've been disconnected for 90 minutes, is everything OK), perhaps even making the notification persistent after a time, but this would be disturbing to the laptop user who has deliberately gone off-line. My second - and preferred - inclination is an ephemeral bubble to draw attention coupled with a persistent NetworkManager icon showing current network state. I say preferred because it is fairly easy to do (since it is what happens now - no more work required) and because it is relatively elegant. (The only reasonable improvement I can see is to not raise the bubble until the machine is being used interactively, e.g., when the screen is unlocked, in order to ensure the bubble is displayed when it makes sense to do so - when it can be attended to.) My third - and downright potentially Rube Goldbergian - is to apply some sort of heuristics to determine how likely it is that the network disappearing was intended. If the machine is being used and it is a latop, then chances are the user undocked; if the machine is not being used, then maybe the user undocked, but that's not a safe assumption; if the machine isn't a laptop, then chances are it's a problem - the user may have deliberately unplugged the network, but that in itself likely signals an unusual, so having to dismiss a persistent dialog won't be too unwelcome. And I don't know if the data exists to allow intelligent heuristics. All of the ephemeral-but-may-signal-a-problem will have to be use-cased (hmm, Calvin was right, verbing weirds language) to determine appropriate defaults and appropriate heuristics. What do we do if we get any of these wrong, as we surely will? We discuss. We figure out default policies for all three cases, apply them as best we can, likely succeeding more than we fail thanks to the 80/20 rule, and we debate the rest as a community and come to consensus. Like we most often do. Having said that, all system notifications start off with a default system policy that can be changed by an admin (but not by a user). Quick comments re a few other points. I am adamantly opposed to popups in the user space, as should be obvious from earlier comments - unrequested popups are simply unwelcome and
Re: [Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information
Op donderdag 09-04-2009 om 14:16 uur [tijdzone +], schreef Matthew Paul Thomas: Pausanias, the notification area is not a guarantee of authenticity in either Windows or Ubuntu. In both OSes it can be used by third-party applications, including malware. Once there is malware on your PC then obviously nothing can be considered authentic anymore. But I think what Pausanias means is that you can't put an icon there from outside your PC, e.g. using some JavaScript on a web page, while websites opening a window is quite common... -- Jan Claeys -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information
@Mathew: PLS , could u just answer one question... when i'm working i get a notification to update so i update thinking its would just work in the background but after the update it asks for a restart i choose to restart later i'd be reminded again after 1 day to restart, when of course it would be the same time i'm working so i choose *again* to restart later next day , and so happens for every day for a few days , i dont restart[i usually set the system to hibernate/suspend] but i keep getting this reminder at the most awkward time while i'm working, *so now would i get any other updates* ? what if these NEW updates are supposed to patch up the previous update for which i havent restarted yet? *would the update install properly and not break the system /cause a crash*??? wouldnt this problem be avoided if there was a reminder, which reminded me after my work was over, to restart? there is a huge defect in this method that devs have overlooked... there are several users who dont shutdown the system often but keep it running, often bragging that they didnt restart for nearly 45days...! i do understand that u are the aesthetics side of this and not from the technical aspect , and u cannot guarantee, the technical problems here, but *what have u planned for such a scenario*? because when we spread the word to other new users, to try out ubuntu, we should know the defects in it too , to warn them either that they should remember the notification or to not close the dialogue window...! -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
Re: [Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information
On Thu, 2009-04-09 at 16:55 +, mac_v wrote: wouldnt this problem be avoided if there was a reminder, which reminded me after my work was over, to restart? I thought of this as well, and included a mechanism in my comments on the wiki page - when you click on a system notification, you are presented with three options: * Cancel (addresses the I'm about to reboot and I know about problem, I'll deal with it on my own cases) * Do now * Do later (with an option to specify when) pww -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information
Olá ktp420 e a todos. On Thursday 09 April 2009 03:50:12 ktp420 wrote: Can please provide studies which show and helped in your conclusion that system tray is heavily overused. Here is one -- Hi, I'm BUGabundo, and I am Ubuntu (whyubuntu.com) (``-_-´´) http://LinuxNoDEI.BUGabundo.net Ubuntu LoCoTeam Portugal http://ubuntu-pt.org Linux user #443786GPG key 1024D/A1784EBB ** Attachment added: tray.png http://launchpadlibrarian.net/25172816/tray.png -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
RE: [Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2009 14:16:00 + From: m...@canonical.com To: ktp...@live.com Subject: [Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information Pausanias, the notification area is not a guarantee of authenticity in either Windows or Ubuntu. In both OSes it can be used by third-party applications, including malware. And in both OSes the vendor is clamping down on third-party use, though in different ways. We're at an advantage, because most Ubuntu applications are Free Software, so we can patch them and send those patches upstream. Microsoft has to resort to more code and interface bloat: a dialog listing all notification icons past and present, with options to prevent them appearing in future. http://howtogeek.com/howto/windows-vista/clean-up-past-notification- icons-in-windows-vista/ At least the user still has control over his/her system. Hack why don't you do something like windows, hide the least used. I still don't understand why does the user who wants it will have to leave without it. _ Rediscover Hotmail®: Get e-mail storage that grows with you. http://windowslive.com/RediscoverHotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_Rediscover_Storage1_042009 -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
RE: [Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2009 00:10:08 + From: ubu...@bugabundo.net To: ktp...@live.com Subject: [Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information Olá ktp420 e a todos. On Thursday 09 April 2009 03:50:12 ktp420 wrote: Can please provide studies which show and helped in your conclusion that system tray is heavily overused. Here is one -- Hi, I'm BUGabundo, and I am Ubuntu (whyubuntu.com) (``-_-´´) http://LinuxNoDEI.BUGabundo.net Ubuntu LoCoTeam Portugal http://ubuntu-pt.org Linux user #443786GPG key 1024D/A1784EBB Send ** Attachment added: tray.png http://launchpadlibrarian.net/25172816/tray.png Thanks for the screen shot. But remember since someone can make the area look like that does not mean that is problem. I am sure most of those are there because user has chose to display them there. _ Rediscover Hotmail®: Get quick friend updates right in your inbox. http://windowslive.com/RediscoverHotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_Rediscover_Updates1_042009 -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information
@BUGabundo: do u realize the difference between notification icons and applets? ur panel is filled up with nearly 26 icons of which only * 8 * come under the category of notification icons , * any almost the icons displayed come with the default setting of no icon in the notification icon * and to have such a panel u have set manually to have the icons displayed this is not a case of the applications missusing the notification area , BUT rather the user misusing the notification area ... even if such a highly iconized setting does really exist , its only since the user has chosen to have all those icons displayed... so what happens to such an icon crazy user? the screenshot u made actually makes no point... -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information
Jamin, to address your three points once more: (1) Yes, it is more obtrusive, that's entirely deliberate, and I don't know what study you're referring to. (2) Using a notification icon to advertise updates is a bad idea first because it's not obvious, and second because it makes installing the updates gratuitously difficult. (3) Using a notification icon to advertise that a restart is required is a bad idea first because it's not obvious, and second because it makes restarting gratuitously difficult. Peter, yes, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/NotificationDesignGuidelines/Comments would be a better place. You'd need to include how the persistent notification would ever be dismissed, and (if it would be dismissed by clicking) how you'd avoid mis-clicking on an unexpected bubble. mac_v, you have a good point that we could improve performance by checking for non-security updates either a week after the last updates or whenever security updates are available, whichever is earlier, rather than checking every day like we do for security updates. I've added that idea to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/AppCenter, thanks. ktp420, yes, you'll be reminded again a day later for security updates, or a week later for non-security updates. -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information
Matthew Paul Thomas wrote::
(1) Yes, it is more obtrusive, that's entirely deliberate, and I don't know
what study you're referring to.
(2) Using a notification icon to advertise updates is a bad idea first because
it's not obvious, and second because it makes installing the updates
gratuitously difficult.
(3) Using a notification icon to advertise that a restart is required is a bad
idea first because it's not obvious, and second because it makes restarting
gratuitously difficult.
@Matthew RIDICULOUS EXPLANATIONS
1] seems to be a deliberate move... OK .. thts understood
2] 3]not obvious???gratuitously difficult.? ARE U KIDDING
the reasons we have road signs as symbols rather than instructions is
since they are more obvious!!!just like icons over windows with text!
with notification icons number of clicks to install updates
1-click the icon for update update manager is opened showing list of updates
an option to install or close
2-click on install updates
THATS IT...
with notification icons number of clicks to restart
1-click the icon for restart restart dialogue is opened showing an option to
restart now or restart later
2-click on restart
THATS IT...
2 clicks for both the steps and i dont understand how u define
gratuitously difficult !!!
what u are doing this far worse
when the user chooses to update later
1-click to close the dialogue
2-click on panel for system menu
3- to reopen the update manager from system menu
4-to install updates...
so i guess that 4 clicks are easier than 2?
OK seems that this battle is not going to be won by the users!
cant we all co-exist? hear me out
option1:
proceed with the way u have planned by opening a pop-under window for
notifications
BUT WHEN the user decides to update/restart later, display an icon { extra
option which is disabled by default but can be set to show icon from settings
in the update manager}
option2:* to satisfy the regular user, and for all who complain provide an
option to allow notification icon display
a better way would be allow the user to decide whether the pop-under / icon is
better for them, with the pop-under being the default setup...
the DELIBERATE steps u have taken for the new update notification system
are understood to all... thought not many agree with it...
PLS consider this extra option of having an icon displayed when the
user postpones the update/restart
--
[Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information
https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945
You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu
Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu.
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ubuntu-bugs mailing list
ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com
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[Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information
@ mac_v: It appears as if you're basing your judgement on the amount of clicks it takes to perform actions. The amount of time it *really* takes to make 4 clicks (making the assumption that you have to move the mouse between each click), is no more than like 4 seconds. What makes these things difficult, is that most of the time people aren't staring at their taskbar tray, and any icon that pops up goes unnoticed (most of the time). Making this how MPT has it , is something to try out, and get used to. I can't imagine you knew how to run ubuntu the first day you used it. Take the time to get used to the changes, and adapt yourself to it, as Ubuntu thankfully makes this easy. In General: I really think that users should let the development teams run away with their ideas, because a ton of people really want to see changes to their OS that make it better (all in different ways), and the people that complain about 2 vs 4 clicks or how intrusive these things are, really need to step back a bit. Are you being intruded when your e-mail program notifies you in a persistent window that new mail is ready (and maybe even bring up the program window unfocused)? Are you being intruded when your IM client pops up a window when someone new IM's you? I bet you don't think so. Adapt to the changes, as you would if you were trying out a different OS, or a new version of some software you use. It's really not that difficult. -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
Re: [Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information
i have to agree with mac_v
On Wed, 2009-04-08 at 13:56 +, mac_v wrote:
Matthew Paul Thomas wrote::
(1) Yes, it is more obtrusive, that's entirely deliberate, and I don't know
what study you're referring to.
(2) Using a notification icon to advertise updates is a bad idea first
because it's not obvious, and second because it makes installing the updates
gratuitously difficult.
(3) Using a notification icon to advertise that a restart is required is a
bad idea first because it's not obvious, and second because it makes
restarting gratuitously difficult.
@Matthew RIDICULOUS EXPLANATIONS
1] seems to be a deliberate move... OK .. thts understood
2] 3]not obvious???gratuitously difficult.? ARE U KIDDING
the reasons we have road signs as symbols rather than instructions is
since they are more obvious!!!just like icons over windows with text!
with notification icons number of clicks to install updates
1-click the icon for update update manager is opened showing list of
updates an option to install or close
2-click on install updates
THATS IT...
with notification icons number of clicks to restart
1-click the icon for restart restart dialogue is opened showing an option
to restart now or restart later
2-click on restart
THATS IT...
2 clicks for both the steps and i dont understand how u define
gratuitously difficult !!!
what u are doing this far worse
when the user chooses to update later
1-click to close the dialogue
2-click on panel for system menu
3- to reopen the update manager from system menu
4-to install updates...
so i guess that 4 clicks are easier than 2?
OK seems that this battle is not going to be won by the users!
cant we all co-exist? hear me out
option1:
proceed with the way u have planned by opening a pop-under window for
notifications
BUT WHEN the user decides to update/restart later, display an icon { extra
option which is disabled by default but can be set to show icon from settings
in the update manager}
option2:* to satisfy the regular user, and for all who complain provide
an option to allow notification icon display
a better way would be allow the user to decide whether the pop-under / icon
is better for them, with the pop-under being the default setup...
the DELIBERATE steps u have taken for the new update notification system
are understood to all... thought not many agree with it...
PLS consider this extra option of having an icon displayed when the
user postpones the update/restart
--
[Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information
https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945
You received this bug notification because you are a direct subscriber
of the bug.
Status in Ubuntu Release Notes: New
Status in “update-notifier” source package in Ubuntu: Confirmed
Status in update-notifier in Ubuntu Jaunty: Won't Fix
Bug description:
I am referring to the removal up the update-notifier in the Gnome
notification area. The discussion of it is embedded in the thread headed by:
https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2009-February/027416.html
Specific messages worth reading are:
https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2009-February/027434.html
https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2009-February/027451.html
https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2009-February/027454.html
https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2009-February/027437.html
https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2009-February/027445.html
Matthew Paul Thomas says that the desired behavior is:
* When there are security updates, Update Manager will open and show
them (plus any other available updates) within a day.
* When there are non-security updates, Update Manager will open and
show them *one week* after it was last opened (whether it was last
opened manually or automatically, and regardless of whether updates
were actually installed then).
* When there are no available updates, Update Manager will not open
automatically at all.
Desired by whom? And where was discussion of this change that effects the
entire Ubuntu community? Because some percentage of users don't apparently
understand that the notification area has meaning, we are not going to use it
for updates? Chow Loong Jin raised a valid point that if update notification
is now done by opening the entire update manager program, perhaps evolution
and similar should open their application UIs rather than use the
notification area. And there are concerns about unintended functional
consequences of this ill-conceived change, discussed in the thread.
Personally, I predict that opening the Update Manager window while people are
working will piss off a lot of users when it happens, and may result in them
wanting to disable automatic checking. Yes, that'll be highly desirable,
won't
Re: [Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information
2009/4/8 mac_v drkv...@yahoo.com: @Matthew RIDICULOUS EXPLANATIONS 1] seems to be a deliberate move... OK .. thts understood 2] 3]not obvious???gratuitously difficult.? ARE U KIDDING Lets keep this calm and adult shall we. the reasons we have road signs as symbols rather than instructions is since they are more obvious!!!just like icons over windows with text! I don't know about your region, but where I come from road signs are rarely 24 pixels high! In addition in the UK we have a book full of them called the Highway Code which is a lookup table of signs and their meanings, with a couple of tests before you are allowed to drive alone. On the desktop we don't have such a test, people can download and install Ubuntu with nothing more than a CD or a web link. The update notifier icon is an orange splodge or red arrow that has no metaphor. The battery icon looks like a battery, the network icons now look a bit like network signal on the now ubiquitous cell phone, the bluetooth icon is indeed a bluetooth icon. The update-notifier icon only means something once someone tells you what it is. OK seems that this battle is not going to be won by the users! This isn't a battle. It's a bug report. -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
Re: [Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information
Are you being intruded when your e-mail program notifies you in a persistent window that new mail is ready (and maybe even bring up the program window unfocused)? Are you being intruded when your IM client pops up a window when someone new IM's you? YES! Now please allow for the user to revert this behaviour. There is a reason that the feature for new IM messages to be restricted to only flashing in the system tray is part of every major IM program... I wish you would realise that.Feel free to run like crazy with your developer 'ideas' but when you do, provide a way for us users to turn the insanity off when we don't like it. On Wed, Apr 8, 2009 at 10:19 AM, Brian Curtis briancurtis...@gmail.comwrote: @ mac_v: It appears as if you're basing your judgement on the amount of clicks it takes to perform actions. The amount of time it *really* takes to make 4 clicks (making the assumption that you have to move the mouse between each click), is no more than like 4 seconds. What makes these things difficult, is that most of the time people aren't staring at their taskbar tray, and any icon that pops up goes unnoticed (most of the time). Making this how MPT has it , is something to try out, and get used to. I can't imagine you knew how to run ubuntu the first day you used it. Take the time to get used to the changes, and adapt yourself to it, as Ubuntu thankfully makes this easy. In General: I really think that users should let the development teams run away with their ideas, because a ton of people really want to see changes to their OS that make it better (all in different ways), and the people that complain about 2 vs 4 clicks or how intrusive these things are, really need to step back a bit. Are you being intruded when your e-mail program notifies you in a persistent window that new mail is ready (and maybe even bring up the program window unfocused)? Are you being intruded when your IM client pops up a window when someone new IM's you? I bet you don't think so. Adapt to the changes, as you would if you were trying out a different OS, or a new version of some software you use. It's really not that difficult. -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a direct subscriber of the bug. Status in Ubuntu Release Notes: New Status in “update-notifier” source package in Ubuntu: Confirmed Status in update-notifier in Ubuntu Jaunty: Won't Fix Bug description: I am referring to the removal up the update-notifier in the Gnome notification area. The discussion of it is embedded in the thread headed by: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2009-February/027416.html Specific messages worth reading are: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2009-February/027434.html https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2009-February/027451.html https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2009-February/027454.html https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2009-February/027437.html https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2009-February/027445.html Matthew Paul Thomas says that the desired behavior is: * When there are security updates, Update Manager will open and show them (plus any other available updates) within a day. * When there are non-security updates, Update Manager will open and show them *one week* after it was last opened (whether it was last opened manually or automatically, and regardless of whether updates were actually installed then). * When there are no available updates, Update Manager will not open automatically at all. Desired by whom? And where was discussion of this change that effects the entire Ubuntu community? Because some percentage of users don't apparently understand that the notification area has meaning, we are not going to use it for updates? Chow Loong Jin raised a valid point that if update notification is now done by opening the entire update manager program, perhaps evolution and similar should open their application UIs rather than use the notification area. And there are concerns about unintended functional consequences of this ill-conceived change, discussed in the thread. Personally, I predict that opening the Update Manager window while people are working will piss off a lot of users when it happens, and may result in them wanting to disable automatic checking. Yes, that'll be highly desirable, won't it? In other words, this change should be corrected, and a notification icon should be displayed when updates are available. To disable the new behaviour and get the old behaviour use: gconftool -s --type bool /apps/update-notifier/auto_launch false Take into account that this gconf change is not supported. -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information
