[Bug 556372] Re: Please remove the plymouth dependency from mountall / cryptsetup

[Christian Kujau]

👍

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  Please remove the plymouth dependency from mountall / cryptsetup

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[Bug 556372] Re: Please remove the plymouth dependency from mountall / cryptsetup

[Bryan Quigley]

This appears to have actually been fixed (artful+), plymouth was moved to a 
recommends [1] for cryptsetup (although the changelog doesn't seem to say that).
Mountall is no longer included in artful+ with the switch to systemd.

[1] https://packages.ubuntu.com/artful/cryptsetup

** Changed in: cryptsetup
   Status: Confirmed => Fix Released

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[Bug 556372] Re: Please remove the plymouth dependency from mountall / cryptsetup

[Tim Werner]

This kind of philosophy is the reason why I am going to quit using
Ubuntu.

Regards
tim.werner@freemail.services

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[Bug 556372] Re: Please remove the plymouth dependency from mountall / cryptsetup

[Serhiy Zahoriya]

I don't yet understand how exactly the next two facts combine: 1)
Plymouth is not just a splash screen but required for something
cryptsetup does 2) cryptsetup works just fine without it on many setups

What conditions are required for the cryptsetup to fail in any way when
plymouth package is absent?

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[Bug 556372] Re: Please remove the plymouth dependency from mountall / cryptsetup

[Muelli]

** Tags added: trusty vivid

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[Bug 556372] Re: Please remove the plymouth dependency from mountall / cryptsetup

[Christian Kujau]

FWIW, Fedora also ships plymouth by default but it is entirely possible
to remove all plymouth packages w/o any hard dependencies. I was really
surprised by this, given that RPM based distributions have a bad rep for
the "rpm hell". Not anymore, it seems...

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[Bug 556372] Re: Please remove the plymouth dependency from mountall / cryptsetup

[UBUCATZ]

We are doing some research on how PARTICIPATION actually works in the
Ubuntu ecosystem and we would like to know if there is any community
process that would allow voting on this issue?

This is an especially interesting issue because from a technical view it
is very clear - of course it is total nonsense to have such basic things
like cryptsetup depend on a graphical boot animation gimmick. But this
makes the question even more interesting how such unreflected decisions
creep into the community. Is this an attempt to make Ubuntu a bad name?
Is there some planning for future plymouth features that make this
dependency needed today? Or is this just kind of a strange joke?

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Re: [Bug 556372] Re: Please remove the plymouth dependency from mountall / cryptsetup

[Shahar Or]

If libpango dependency is the issue then please rewrite title and
description accordingly or better yet submit a new bug on that.

Sent from mobile נשלח מנייד
On 12 Nov 2013 21:27, "Povilas Kanapickas" <556...@bugs.launchpad.net>
wrote:

> If plymouth only handles messages to the console, it shouldn't depend on
> libpango, a font library.
>
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> Title:
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[Bug 556372] Re: Please remove the plymouth dependency from mountall / cryptsetup

[Povilas Kanapickas]

If plymouth only handles messages to the console, it shouldn't depend on
libpango, a font library.

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Re: [Bug 556372] Re: Please remove the plymouth dependency from mountall / cryptsetup

[Christian Kujau]

On Sun, 30 Jun 2013 at 21:59, Steve Langasek wrote:
> This dependency:
>  - is not a bug in plymouth.

Well, no, but it's a bug in packages like mountall an cryptsetup which 
DEPEND on plymouth - that's the whole point of this bug.

>  - is not up for debate.

Oh? Why so?

> You do not have a properly functioning system if you have purged
> plymouth.  You have a system that will fall on its face and fail to boot
> with no recovery options if there is ever any problem with any of the
> filesystems listed in /etc/fstab.

Booting with "init=/bin/sh" is sufficient for a recovery system, I don't 
need plymouth for that. More to the point, relying on even more software 
for a recovery system makes no sense - if the system is heavily damaged, I 
should rely on as little software as possible to get it running again. A 
kernel and a working shell would be sufficient. With plymouth and its 
dependency tree this cannot be guaranteed.

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[Bug 556372] Re: Please remove the plymouth dependency from mountall / cryptsetup

[Steve Langasek]

Also,
.

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[Bug 556372] Re: Please remove the plymouth dependency from mountall / cryptsetup

[Steve Langasek]

This dependency:
 - is not a bug in plymouth.
 - is not up for debate.

> Reopened. Son long as I have to keep purging something
> to have a properly functioning system, the bug has not been fixed.

You do not have a properly functioning system if you have purged
plymouth.  You have a system that will fall on its face and fail to boot
with no recovery options if there is ever any problem with any of the
filesystems listed in /etc/fstab.

** No longer affects: plymouth (Ubuntu)

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[Bug 556372] Re: Please remove the plymouth dependency from mountall / cryptsetup

[Steve Riley]

Reopened. Son long as I have to keep purging something to have a
properly functioning system, the bug has not been fixed.

** Changed in: plymouth (Ubuntu)
   Status: Invalid => Confirmed

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Re: [Bug 556372] Re: Please remove the plymouth dependency from mountall / cryptsetup

[Christian Kujau]

On Sat, 29 Jun 2013 at 00:22, Steve Langasek wrote:
> ** Changed in: plymouth (Ubuntu)
>Status: Confirmed => Invalid

Can you comment on this one, please? So far there has been no technical 
reasoning in #556372 as to why a "Depends: plymouth" should be warranted. 
OTOH, technical reasons have been given why Recommends: would be 
sufficient.

Thanks,
Christian.

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Re: [Bug 556372] Re: Please remove the plymouth dependency from mountall / cryptsetup

[ingo]

> Steve, care to comment on why this is invalid?

Because God Fathter decided.

For Raring you can find liberated packages of mountall and cryptsetup here:
http://forum.ubuntuusers.de/post/5699657/quote/

They have proven to work and even solved some problems caused by
plymouth.

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[Bug 556372] Re: Please remove the plymouth dependency from mountall / cryptsetup

[SheeEttin]

Steve, care to comment on why this is invalid?

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[Bug 556372] Re: Please remove the plymouth dependency from mountall / cryptsetup

[Steve Langasek]

** Changed in: plymouth (Ubuntu)
   Status: Confirmed => Invalid

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[Bug 556372] Re: Please remove the plymouth dependency from mountall / cryptsetup

[Launchpad Bug Tracker]

Status changed to 'Confirmed' because the bug affects multiple users.

** Changed in: plymouth (Ubuntu)
   Status: New => Confirmed

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[Bug 556372] Re: Please remove the plymouth dependency from mountall / cryptsetup

[Ubuntu Foundations Team Bug Bot]

The attachment "replacement for mountall_2.11 with plymouth dependency
removed" seems to be a patch.  If it isn't, please remove the "patch"
flag from the attachment, remove the "patch" tag, and if you are a
member of the ~ubuntu-reviewers, unsubscribe the team.

[This is an automated message performed by a Launchpad user owned by
~brian-murray, for any issues please contact him.]

** Tags added: patch

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[Bug 556372] Re: Please remove the plymouth dependency from mountall / cryptsetup

[Christian Kujau]

** Also affects: plymouth (Ubuntu)
   Importance: Undecided
   Status: New

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[Bug 556372] Re: Please remove the plymouth dependency from mountall / cryptsetup

[Thorsten Goetzke]

I am speechless.  Filesystem mounting on startup "depends" on an unstable GUI.
But "hey!" plymouth can also send messages to the console! Everything is fine.. 
No? No! 
Fix it, there are no excuses.

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[Bug 556372] Re: Please remove the plymouth dependency from mountall / cryptsetup

[ingo]

SheeEttin: I'd rather recommend going for Wheezy which is almost done.
It is supposed to have less bugs already now than Ubuntu will ever
achieve. If you want to stick to good old Gnome2 desktop, have a look at
MATE 1.6.

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[Bug 556372] Re: Please remove the plymouth dependency from mountall / cryptsetup

[Alf Gaida]

Christian Kujau: remove plymouth as dependency would be enough :)
SheeEttin: http://www.debian.org/CD/netinst/index.en.html#netinst-stable :)

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[Bug 556372] Re: Please remove the plymouth dependency from mountall / cryptsetup

[SheeEttin]

Per Scott in comment #4: "Won't Fix is a maintainer decision (ie. me)";
so basically this is a "because I say so" thing? I'm not sure how to
proceed if the maintainer refuses to fix it.

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[Bug 556372] Re: Please remove the plymouth dependency from mountall / cryptsetup

[Christian Kujau]

This bug is not meant to "remove plymouth" - if you feel that way,
please file another bug.

Speaking of which: this bug here is set to "wontfix" - do I need to file
a new bug or can this be set to "confirmed" again?

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[Bug 556372] Re: Please remove the plymouth dependency from mountall / cryptsetup

[Steve Riley]

> We are not asking to drop plymouth from the default installation.

Actually, I think it should be removed. Go take a look at the zillion
posts in Ubuntu and Kubuntu forums about problems during boot. In many
cases, we have to spend useless time telling people how to disable the
pretty graphical boot so that we can see the underlying boot text just
to find out where a problem might lie. Concealing useful information
makes no sense. How many people really make their OS choices based on
"seamless graphical boots" with pretty wallpaper?

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[Bug 556372] Re: Please remove the plymouth dependency from mountall / cryptsetup

[chalom]

We are in 2013, and this problem (which is not exactly a bug, more a
refusal of the developers to provide a decent answer) is still open and
unchanged. I am very disappointed that the developers will not listen to
dozens of users here and change one dependency. We are not asking you to
drop plymouth from the repositories. We are not asking to drop plymouth
from the default installation. We are simply stating that a
"recommended" package shoult NOT be a dependency for a "required"
package. The lack of answer from the development team is childish and
disapointing. You are just deterring the users from customizing their
own setup and encouraging users to change distributions, congratulations
to you all.

Thanks ingo, christiank and the others for the workarounds. I think I'll
stick with "change to Debian".

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[Bug 556372] Re: Please remove the plymouth dependency from mountall / cryptsetup

[PlaidRadish]

Not that this thread (and bug) need more support, but this has now
become an issue for me in Ubuntu Server 12.10 - on boot, my main tty
(tty1) reads:

 {servername} login: mountall: Plymouth command failed
 mountall: Disconnected from Plymouth

This would normall be the screen where I would login...I can still
login, but the text is misleading to new Ubuntu Server users. It is now
difficult to tell where to input the login information, as the Plymouth
error appears where the user's login name should be typed.

Please change Ubuntu Server distributions to exclude Plymouth as a
dependency. This error is an annoyance when teaching Ubuntu Server to
new technicians.

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[Bug 556372] Re: Please remove the plymouth dependency from mountall / cryptsetup

[ingo]

> Debian testing appears to be much more stable than ubuntu these days.
Less updates too.

+1

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[Bug 556372] Re: Please remove the plymouth dependency from mountall / cryptsetup

[Mark - Syminet]

*nod* ... after only four years (not even one LTS cycle), we have begun
the upgrade process back to debian.  Debian testing appears to be much
more stable than ubuntu these days.  Less updates too.

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[Bug 556372] Re: Please remove the plymouth dependency from mountall / cryptsetup

[Christian Kujau]

** Changed in: cryptsetup
   Status: New => Confirmed

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[Bug 556372] Re: Please remove the plymouth dependency from mountall / cryptsetup

[Martin Bishop]

Any plans to stop forcing broken software on users just to make things
"pretty", and actually start fixing real bugs that are actually
affecting users ?

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[Bug 556372] Re: Please remove the plymouth dependency from mountall / cryptsetup

[Oliver Joos]

Ok then, here is the ready-to-install plymouth-dummy_1.0_all.deb! It's
an empty package but allows to remove plymouth while keeping the
packages that have wrong dependencies to plymouth.

To workaround this (WontFix??) bug and remove plymouth just execute 2 commands 
in a Terminal:
  sudo dpkg -i plymouth-dummy_1.0_all.deb
  sudo apt-get remove plymouth

Advanced users can build plymouth-dummy_1.0_all.deb themselves: see comment 16
Many thanks to Christian Kujau!


** Attachment added: "empty replacement for plymouth"
   
https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/mountall/+bug/556372/+attachment/2934837/+files/plymouth-dummy_1.0_all.deb

** Also affects: cryptsetup
   Importance: Undecided
   Status: New

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[Bug 556372] Re: Please remove the plymouth dependency from mountall / cryptsetup

[Christian Kujau]

Feel free to attach the resulting .deb (if one is allowed to attach
binary files).

Maybe users will be more comfortable doing this on their own, so they
"see" what they're installing. And yes, the deb works for all Ubuntu
versions. Also yes: the equivs version will have no functionality
whatsoever but to satisfy the "Depend: plymouth" from various packages.

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Title:
  Please remove the plymouth dependency from mountall / cryptsetup

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[Bug 556372] Re: Please remove the plymouth dependency from mountall / cryptsetup

[Oliver Joos]

@Christian: I overlooked your cool workaround in comment 16! It is
exactly the solution I meant, and in my Natty classic it works perfectly
too! Thank you very much!

What do you think: should we attach the resulting .deb here, as a kind
of "patch"? It is easy to generate, but it would make more clear that
this bug has a solution. If I understand it correctly, the deb works for
all Ubuntu releases (unless they introduce a real functional dependency,
as you wrote).

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  Please remove the plymouth dependency from mountall / cryptsetup

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[Bug 556372] Re: Please remove the plymouth dependency from mountall / cryptsetup

[Christian Kujau]

@Oliver: this can be achieved via "equivs", see my comment #16. This
creates a dummy package (with "Provides: plymouth") that will fullfil
this depenancy. Works like a charm here :)

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  Please remove the plymouth dependency from mountall / cryptsetup

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[Bug 556372] Re: Please remove the plymouth dependency from mountall / cryptsetup

[Oliver Joos]

Perhaps we could create an empty deb package
"plymouth_99.9.9-9ubuntu99.deb" with unchanged dependencies but without
files in it that would be installed. ATM I use the PPA from comment 22.
But this PPA has to follow every update of mountall and cryptsetup. I'd
prefer to keep the original mountall and cryptsetup but "update"
plymouth to an empty version.

We really need an easy-to-maintain fix for this bug before some Smart-
TV-like commercials show up as new default plymouth splash screens!  ;-)

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  Please remove the plymouth dependency from mountall / cryptsetup

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[Bug 556372] Re: Please remove the plymouth dependency from mountall / cryptsetup

[Jacob]

This bug is RIDICULOUS. Ubuntu's quality decreases more and more.

Why it's dependent and not recommend?!?

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  Please remove the plymouth dependency from mountall / cryptsetup

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[Bug 556372] Re: Please remove the plymouth dependency from mountall / cryptsetup

[Christian Kujau]

I still don't understand what the _technical_ reason is not to switch to
Recommends: rather than Depends: as it is now. If plymouth would be
"recommended" only - nothing would change, since "Install-Recommends" is
on by default and everything would just continue to work. But the
sysadmin is free to uninstall plymouth, w/o going through these hoops of
custom mountall packages and equivs dummy packages. Plymouth is out
for...some years now and it's still hindering proper boot-related
debugging now and then and it's still uneccesary for headless systems.

Please explain why plymouth cannot be set to "Recommended" to the
affected packages (mountall, cyrptsetup, ...). Thanks.

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  Please remove the plymouth dependency from mountall / cryptsetup

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[Bug 556372] Re: Please remove the plymouth dependency from mountall / cryptsetup

[Cif]

I've solved the problem installing the modified version of mountall and
cryptsetup. But this is absolutely dumb! Won't fix is ridiculous: I've
installed the server version and I need all the data to be protected and
there's no way I put a keyboard and a server because of this. The only
way I can't use Debian is because some of the packages are too old, but
I'm regretting the idea to put Ubuntu in the new server I have to setup.
I really hope someone decide to fix this non-sense behavior. Just allow
people to remove plymouth, it's easy.

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  Please remove the plymouth dependency from mountall / cryptsetup

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[Bug 556372] Re: Please remove the plymouth dependency from mountall / cryptsetup

[ingo]

I as well built mountall packages for Oneric without dependency on
plymouth. They can be downloaded from uu-forum here: http://media.cdn
.ubuntu-de.org/forum/attachments/3553372/mountall_2.31_liberated.tgz.
The archive contains both, i386 and amd64 packages.

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  Please remove the plymouth dependency from mountall / cryptsetup

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[Bug 556372] Re: Please remove the plymouth dependency from mountall / cryptsetup

[Dave Lentz]

I will post plymouth-optional packages for oneiric in my mediahacks PPA
this afternoon.

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  Please remove the plymouth dependency from mountall / cryptsetup

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[Bug 556372] Re: Please remove the plymouth dependency from mountall / cryptsetup

[Christian Kujau]

Why has this been set to WONTFIX again? Has a consensus been reached
already? From looking at the comments here, I doubt that. I still think
"Depends" is too hard and think "Recommends" is a better suit for this.
As APT::Install-Recommends=true is the default, nothing would change for
the general users. Powerusers with need to the console can opt to
uninstall it w/o breaking their system and w/o the "equivs" hack.

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  Please remove the plymouth dependency from mountall / cryptsetup

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[Bug 556372] Re: Please remove the plymouth dependency from mountall / cryptsetup

[Christian Kujau]

Why has this been set to WONTFIX again? Has a consensus been reached
already? From looking at the comments here, I doubt that. I still think
"Depends" is too hard and think "Recommends" is a better suit for this.
As APT::Install-Recommends=true is the default, nothing would change for
the general users. Powerusers with need to the console can opt to
uninstall it w/o breaking their system and w/o the "equivs" hack.

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Title:
  Please remove the plymouth dependency from mountall / cryptsetup

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[Bug 556372] Re: Please remove the plymouth dependency from mountall / cryptsetup

[Evert Mouw]

Just updated my Ubuntu server to [20]11.10 (Oneiric Ocelot).

This bug hit me and I wondered what Plymouth was, so I used Google and I
could not believe that it was for flashy graphics because mountall
depended on it. So I searched further, and then I discovered this
discussion. So it's true, we have a pointless depencendy and it
generates bugs.

Thanks. My next server will less likely run ubuntu, and I will warn
other admins for this new ubuntu mindset.

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  Please remove the plymouth dependency from mountall / cryptsetup

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[Bug 556372] Re: Please remove the plymouth dependency from mountall / cryptsetup

[Chris E]

Why not make plymouth a dependency of ubuntu-desktop and remove it as a
dependency of mountall.

It's idiotic, frankly, what about mountall *requires* plymouth to work?

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[Bug 556372] Re: Please remove the plymouth dependency from mountall / cryptsetup

[ingo]

Final Natty versions mountall_2.25ubuntu1+0ingo (released April 14) without 
plymouth dependency and are available for download in the uu-forum from here: 
http://forum.ubuntuusers.de/post/2847002/,
or via direct link: 
http://media.cdn.ubuntu-de.org/forum/attachments/2847002/mountall2.25-natty.tgz

Includes i386 and amd64 deb's and md5sum,
enjoy!

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  Please remove the plymouth dependency from mountall / cryptsetup

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[Bug 556372] Re: Please remove the plymouth dependency from mountall / cryptsetup

[Christian Kujau]

FWIW, the equivs package[0] from comment #16 is still working, no need
to upgrade every time a new mountall/cryptsetup/whatnot version is
released.

cheers,
C.

[0] http://nerdbynature.de/bits/LP-506297/

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[Bug 556372] Re: Please remove the plymouth dependency from mountall / cryptsetup

[ingo]

New versions of mountall 2.25 for Natty without dependency on plymouth are 
available here:
http://media.cdn.ubuntu-de.org/forum/attachments/2826729/mountall-2.25-liberated.tgz

Includes i386 and amd64 *.deb's.

ingo

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[Bug 556372] Re: Please remove the plymouth dependency from mountall / cryptsetup

[Dave Lentz]

mediahacks PPA is updated too.

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[Bug 556372] Re: Please remove the plymouth dependency from mountall / cryptsetup

[ingo]

Sorry, I forgot to copy the link:

http://forum.ubuntuusers.de/post/2805146
or for direct download: http:
http://media.cdn.ubuntu-de.org/forum/attachments/2805146/mountall_2.24.tgz

Ingo

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[Bug 556372] Re: Please remove the plymouth dependency from mountall / cryptsetup

[ingo]

They keep me busy: 3 versions of mountall for Natty within 2 weeks!

Here the link for the liberated versions 2.24 (does not depend on
plymouth), both i386 and amd64 with md5sum in a *.tgz.

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[Bug 556372] Re: Please remove the plymouth dependency from mountall / cryptsetup

[Stefan Hofmann]

@Alf
Yes, debian is good solution

@ingo
Thanks, my "solution" was apt-pinning and I could set up a server this way.
But...

*
It's just another thing one must keep in mind. And therefor it's not a solution 
for me. 

The big joke is: I moved from Debian to Ubuntu two years ago. Desperate
because of poor hard/firm-ware support. To my suprise Ubuntu was stable.
And I had the same distribution on my desktops and servers. Since 9.10 I
made all new servers with ubuntu.

And now I will change back to Debian - at least on the server side. Because 
since 10.04 Ubuntu becomes more and more M$.
Not the function, I mean the spirit: FUNCTION FOLLOWS FORM.
Plymouth ist one of the best examples.

Yes, I'm reasonable: This is not more a bug report :-)
Or maybe a bug report about the direction...

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[Bug 556372] Re: Please remove the plymouth dependency from mountall / cryptsetup

[Dave Lentz]

I updated my PPA for the new mountall in Natty:
https://launchpad.net/~dtl131/+archive/mediahacks

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[Bug 556372] Re: Please remove the plymouth dependency from mountall / cryptsetup

[ingo]

@ Stefan
In case you need liberated cryptsetup packages, please post here your version 
of Ubuntu - But Debian for sure is the better choice.

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[Bug 556372] Re: Please remove the plymouth dependency from mountall / cryptsetup

[ingo]

Welcome in the club. I meanwhile also switched from Lucid-amd64 to
Squeeze-amd64 on my desktop. That apperas the logical conclusion because
I am tired of bothering with Canonical-made problems and instabilities.
The move is really easy and lots of essential packages are even more up-
to-date in Squeeze. Moreover you can expect 3 years of service of *all*
packages instead of a tiny fraction thereof for 2 years from now on in
Lucid.

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Title:
  Please remove the plymouth dependency from mountall / cryptsetup

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[Bug 556372] Re: Please remove the plymouth dependency from mountall / cryptsetup

[Alf Gaida]

@Stefan
debian is a really good "solution" for this and other errors. Esp. in servers i 
dont need upstart, i dont need plymouth, i dont need ureedahead. A server has 
to be a little bit "old-fashioned". Remember, debian squeeze become stable on 
Feb. 6. As another plus you will get an actual and fully functional mdam, xen4 
and other goodies as well.

That was the final solution for my servers. On my desktop i switch to
debian sid aka aptosid because of stability. Sounds a little bit crazy,
but an debian sid with some experimentals and a nearly vanilla kernel
runs without hte "normal" maverick and lucid problems for month now. The
only thing about is - you must read the upgrade warnings - or you are an
system guru in patching faulty packages.

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Title:
  Please remove the plymouth dependency from mountall / cryptsetup

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[Bug 556372] Re: Please remove the plymouth dependency from mountall / cryptsetup

[Stefan Hofmann]

Thanks Alf, thanks Ingo, thanks *,

but this is not a solution for me!
Plymouth REALLY BREAKS MY SERVERS. I need full hd encryption and ssh in initrd 
- both is not possible with this ugly and broken package. I cannot purge that 
shit w/o strange workarounds. 
And - as far as I see - the problem is just the maintainer's ego. 
I'm very angry and my solution will be: Drop the ubuntu shit on my servers and 
set up a small, fancy and stable Debian.

I'm sure, with this attitudes you will lost a bunch of people on the
server side.

Why, please tell me WHY, you cannot remove the hard dep. from the
package? Your arguments are not convincing.

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[Bug 556372] Re: Please remove the plymouth dependency from mountall / cryptsetup

[ingo]

For those of you who are already playing with Natty:

Package 'mountall' in Natty received an update to v2.21 recently. The liberated 
versions (suffix +0ingo) can be downloaded from here:
http://forum.ubuntuusers.de/post/2790509/

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[Bug 556372] Re: Please remove the plymouth dependency from mountall / cryptsetup

[ingo]

Seems, the mystery why it is refused to fix this bug has been
discovered. See
https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/upstart/+bug/672177/comments/25
for the full puzzle. You easily can confirm by just executing

apt-get install --reinstall libc6 && shutdown -r now

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[Bug 556372] Re: Please remove the plymouth dependency from mountall / cryptsetup

[ingo]

Please don't worry about the recent update of mountall for Natty to
v2.20+nmu1. Its just a punctuation fix (komma -> dot) and nothing else.

You safely can apt-pin my version by putting these lines in
/etc/apt/preferences:

Explanation: pin a mountall version build by ingo which 
Explanation: does not declare plymouth als requirement.
Package: mountall
Pin: version 2.*ingo*
Pin-Priority: 1001

to avoid overwriting by artificially crippled originals.

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[Bug 556372] Re: Please remove the plymouth dependency from mountall / cryptsetup

[ingo]

Liberated versions of montall and cryptsetup with dependency on plymout
for Natty are available here

http://forum.ubuntuusers.de/topic/howto-hacking-
plymouth/12/#post-2714952

They are for all of you who are fed-up with nasty plymouth and
dictatorial  attitude of some maintainers of Ubuntu.

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[Bug 556372] Re: Please remove the plymouth dependency from mountall / cryptsetup

[ingo]

Just another opinion about plymouth for use in Linux-Mint found here
http://www.linuxmint.com/rel_debian.php:

>Plymouth wasn't considered stable enough to be included in LMDE.
Alternatives such as usplash or splashy seemed obsolete and rather than
using them temporarily, it was decided not to use any default boot
splash.

A wise decision, while Ubuntu forces users to bother with buggy
plymouth.

So, please 

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[Bug 556372] Re: Please remove the plymouth dependency from mountall / cryptsetup

[ingo]

> I'm as a normal user without much knowledge of recompiling not able to
remove it by my self.

If you are able to read/understand German language, come here and you'll get 
help:
http://forum.ubuntuusers.de/topic/howto-hacking-plymouth/12
(we also do not mind in case you post in English ;-)

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[Bug 556372] Re: Please remove the plymouth dependency from mountall / cryptsetup

[Ed Crain]

I really can't understand why you guys putted plymouth into an LTS
release. It's buggy, far from use able (i.e. in combination with
official NVIDIA drivers) and I'm as a normal user without much knowledge
of recompiling not able to remove it by my self. I really can't
understand that so please change this unnecessary dependency.

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[Bug 556372] Re: Please remove the plymouth dependency from mountall / cryptsetup

[ingo]

> plymouth "solves" a problem no one had

Even worse:
it appears to just imitate the Win$ beheaviour like Fedora does, and 
additionally hides "warnings" and "error" messages during boot, so it avoids 
the necessity to fix the root cause of those messages.

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[Bug 556372] Re: Please remove the plymouth dependency from mountall / cryptsetup

[jmaasing]

plymouth "solves" a problem no one had but introduces real problems.
I just want to get rid of it and I can not understand why I am not allowed to 
do so.

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[Bug 556372] Re: Please remove the plymouth dependency from mountall / cryptsetup

[xfkubus]

Hello,

i'm a normal Linux user without any curious geeky skills. I've a
completely encrypted Ubuntu on my laptop. If i installed the proprietary
driver from nVidia to have full 3d acceleration active. Is this a scary
wish? After installation i can't see the type-in mask to decrypt my LUKS
container because plymouth is deformed. Don't see any bugs on boot up
too. I've tryed to fix the resolution but no workaround helps. Then all
i want is to remove plymouth. Plymouth don't work for me. Is this a
scary wish?

Why i must use a 3rd party ppa, or download individual packages from a
board to uninstall a program that is not working correctly. I can't
understand why there are these hard dependencies. I can handle this
unnecessary problem, but other may not.

I'm stressed out of problems like this.

Greets,
xf

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[Bug 556372] Re: Please remove the plymouth dependency from mountall / cryptsetup

[ingo]

mountall 2.15-3 has shown up in Lucid-proposed, seems to correspond to
Maverick's 2.19 (same changelog).

Liberated versions of mountall for Lucid and Maverick are available in the 
known places.
Liberated up-to-date versions of cryptsetup as well

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[Bug 556372] Re: Please remove the plymouth dependency from mountall / cryptsetup

[frenchy82]

I have too, problems with plymouth

I really have to uninstall it if i want to shutdown my computer
As soon as plymouth is installed for me, the computer can't shutdown so i have 
to make a hard stop (press on the button stop)
As soon as plymouth is uninstalled, my computer can shutdown

https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux/+bug/576204

So it would be nice for people like me who have problem with it, can uninstall 
plymouth 
So for the moment i need to use the PPA mentionned here

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[Bug 556372] Re: Please remove the plymouth dependency from mountall / cryptsetup

[ingo]

Liberated versions of the updated (security fix) mountall (v2.15.2 for
Lucid resp. 2.17 for Maverick) are available in the known places.

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[Bug 556372] Re: Please remove the plymouth dependency from mountall / cryptsetup

[Mitchell Smith]

I would also like to request the removal of this unnecessary dependancy.

We use Ubuntu Server in a fully virtualized environment, where text
console is used to access our virtual machines.

For this reason, a graphical boot screen is of no use at all, and the
fact we can't just purge this package to keep things tidy is quite
frustrating.

I understand that Ubuntu aims to provide a graphically pleasing
environment, but as an enterprise running hundreds of virtual machines,
we like to run things as bear metal as possible.

Please don't take that choice away from experienced system engineers,
who want to customize their environment for optimal performance and
reliability.

There is no reason not to make this dependancy "recommends" and maybe
use ubuntu-standard or ubuntu-desktop to ensure the package gets
installed in a tipical install, but there is also no reason to force
users to  keep something installed that isn't an "essential"
requirement.

Please remember that Ubuntu isn't only an attractive desktop
environment, there are also power users out there who want to use it as
a secure, reliable, up-to-date, production ready enterprise server
environment.

I strongly encourage you to consider all the audiences your decision is
impacting, and please reconsider this as an optional dependancy.

Thanks

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[Bug 556372] Re: Please remove the plymouth dependency from mountall / cryptsetup

[ingo]

Plymouth (currently) is obsolete!

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[Bug 556372] Re: Please remove the plymouth dependency from mountall / cryptsetup

[ingo]

Nice thread here, but there is no chance for plymouth to ever survive on my 
machine.
I don't accept intentionlly faulty configuration/dependency and meanwhile there 
is already a small community promoting and supporting a "free mountall and 
cryptsetp".

> potential interaction between multiple parallel boot programs
(filesystem checks, ...

Ridiculous, I have never seen any interaction i.e during a fsck. Just
the opposite is true: plymouth and what it displays is absolutely
independent and in no way linked to reality. A filesystem check may even
last longer than plymouth is alive ...

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[Bug 556372] Re: Please remove the plymouth dependency from mountall / cryptsetup

[Alf Gaida]

Your last sentence is wrong: That program could eventually be plymouth
in future. Today it sucks. In todays shape plymouth is useless and do
harm to many people.

Ok - you can decide, what ever you want. But users can decide as well:
My decision is to remove the dependency every time you update plymouth
and purge it ( and i know, i'm not alone). This will be a long running
gag. Make plymouth useful  and i'll stop removing plymouth from my
systems immediately. Maybe plymouth reach this state some day.

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[Bug 556372] Re: Please remove the plymouth dependency from mountall / cryptsetup

[Alf Gaida]

You are joking, right? A hard dependency for further use? BTW: If
plymouth should be useful, this would mean i could interact with
programs. Several times i could not. In this shape plymouth does more
harm then any useful things.

Or please change your last sentence: That program one day can eventually
be plymouth.  Until this goal is reached, make it removable. It's only a
word in ../debian/control. (Building a ppa every time you update
mountall sucks btw)

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[Bug 556372] Re: Please remove the plymouth dependency from mountall / cryptsetup

[Johan Kiviniemi]

> But why, oh why, mountall still depends on plymouth?

Something needs to be there to multiplex the potential interaction
between multiple parallel boot programs (filesystem checks, cryptsetup
etc.) and the user. That program is plymouth.

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[Bug 556372] Re: Please remove the plymouth dependency from mountall / cryptsetup

[Alf Gaida]

The answer is simple. If there where no dependency for plymouth, anyone
could purge plymouth. This would break the holy eye-candy of ubuntu. A
nice crash is better then a ugly error-free system start. :(

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[Bug 556372] Re: Please remove the plymouth dependency from mountall / cryptsetup

[Tong Sun]

Reading through all the comment, I still don't understand why mountall
depends on plymouth.

Plymouth is an application that runs very early in the boot process,
*even before the root filesystem is mounted!*

But why, oh why, mountall still depends on plymouth?

Please justify.

Thanks

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[Bug 556372] Re: Please remove the plymouth dependency from mountall / cryptsetup

[Alf Gaida]

https://launchpad.net/~info-g-com/+archive/helpers-rcs

Packages for Lucid and Maverick - I'm willing to check out mav, but only
without plymouth ;)

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[Bug 556372] Re: Please remove the plymouth dependency from mountall / cryptsetup

[Rafael Gattringer]

As a tester I kindly ask for an easy way to activate textual boot
option. Why?

* The graphical boot might hang when changing the graphic driver - e.g.
personal experience when trying to activate a NVIDIA driver.

* Textual booting facilitates error seeking - e.g. where does the boot
process hang?

* A fast boot is the goal of all of us. On a global scale it even saves co2! ;-)
People out there don't always have the newest hardware, which might minimize 
the text/graphic boot time difference.

This discussion remembers me of the Ubuntu 10.04 window position problem
(close/minimze/maximize position).

So please (whoever is in charge), choose a standard option (= Ubuntu
Politics), but enable everyone to change to the other options in a
simple way. Thank you.

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[Bug 556372] Re: Please remove the plymouth dependency from mountall / cryptsetup

[Dave Lentz]

Sorry for not keeping up with Maverick versions. I'll (hopefully) have
them soon when I find time to upgrade one of my Ubuntu installs to
Maverick.

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[Bug 556372] Re: Please remove the plymouth dependency from mountall / cryptsetup

[SheeEttin]

Echoing the same sentiment--for me, trying to boot with "single" or no
"splash" kernel options does not work at all (i.e. black screen, doing
nothing, forever) unless I remove plymouth.

I've installed the dummy from Dave Lentz' PPA, and it works beautifully.
Plymouth is obviously not required, and should not be.

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[Bug 556372] Re: Please remove the plymouth dependency from mountall / cryptsetup

[ingo]

I'm afraid, but such attitudes seem to be common in Ubuntu.

We had a similar case some time ago in Gusty, where 's2ram' binary was
intentionally removed fron 'uswsusp' package. And users were forced to
use buggy kernel-suspend instead.

My suspicion: force users to test and debug 'kernel-suspend' instead of
doing some QA homework.

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[Bug 556372] Re: Please remove the plymouth dependency from mountall / cryptsetup

[Alf Gaida]

Here is a new PPA, fixing the a mountall and cryptsetup. It's a really
massive change. Deleteing just one word and compile again. Nice Job
setting it to won't fix.

https://launchpad.net/~info-g-com/+archive/helpers-rcs

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[Bug 556372] Re: Please remove the plymouth dependency from mountall / cryptsetup

[Will Daniels]

Come on Canonical, what's with all the "user's want this and user's want
that"? _I_ am a user, as are others here, and this hard depends on
plymouth is causing me problems right now. If it's not required (and
it's not) then it's not a Depends. This is a bug, plain and simple.

Nobody has given any real reason why it shouldn't be fixed - and it's
such a painless, simple fix - so it amounts to sticking two fingers up
at anybody who cares about this.

You know, I'm always defending Ubuntu and Canonical, but this sort of
thing really smacks of Microsoft and I'm wondering - not for the first
time lately - if I'm actually in the right camp here. Is the "server
edition" just meaningless marketing drivel?

There's a great many people running headless servers who just don't want
to have to deal with plymouth _right now_ and you're forcing us
to...why? Because "it's no harm for that to enter the standard set now"?
There _is_ a harm _for me_ because it breaks my setup and I have other
things to be doing. Please have more consideration for busy admins who
made a choice, in good faith, to work with Ubuntu.

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[Bug 556372] Re: Please remove the plymouth dependency from mountall / cryptsetup

[cdmiller]

To disable Plymouth on Lucid server we removed the
/etc/init/plymouth*.conf scripts: http://staff.adams.edu/~cdmiller/posts
/Ubuntu-Lucid-server-disable-plymouth/

Hope that is a helpful kludge for some.

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[Bug 556372] Re: Please remove the plymouth dependency from mountall / cryptsetup

[Alf Gaida]

thanks ingo, thanks dave, now it looks for me as a linux should look.

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[Bug 556372] Re: Please remove the plymouth dependency from mountall / cryptsetup

[Dave Lentz]

ingo, I'm doing the same thing in PPA form:
https://launchpad.net/~dtl131/+archive/mediahacks

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[Bug 556372] Re: Please remove the plymouth dependency from mountall / cryptsetup

[ingo]

Here the links for the patched versions 2.13:
http://media.ubuntuusers.de/forum/attachments/2445809/mountall_2.13-0ingo_amd64.deb
http://media.ubuntuusers.de/forum/attachments/2445809/mountall_2.13-0ingo_i386.deb

At this occasion: does anybody still have the deb's of v2.9, I'd be
happy to test them as well?

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[Bug 556372] Re: Please remove the plymouth dependency from mountall / cryptsetup

[Christian Kujau]

If plymouth is really needd and actually doing something useful besides
providing fancy booting, then its package desciption should be changed
to something more verbose (a bug against plymouth should be filed, I
guess). However, when following the package page for plymouth I
eventually end up on the freedesktop.org page where it's all about
graphics and splashes.

But again, as Ubuntu is still shipping -server flavours, I fail to see
the point why any package from the x11 section would be of priority
"required". Why can't it be a dependency for "ubuntu-desktop", as in: I
want a desktop system, with fancy bootup and so on. It's enough of a
burden for all the headless admin (hihi) out there fiddling with
bootparams to get to see exactly when the box stopped booting when
something has gone wrong.

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[Bug 556372] Re: Please remove the plymouth dependency from mountall / cryptsetup

[Michael Lustfield]

Perhaps the better solution would be to work with Ubuntu to:
1) Separate the important parts of plymouth and boot splash and
2) Make the functional part required with the extra part recommends

Plymouth does have an important part in the boot process. As much as I
feel it's bloat, it's something that should be there.

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[Bug 556372] Re: Please remove the plymouth dependency from mountall / cryptsetup

[ingo]

Hi Christian,

thanks for your hint - so we got several ways to manage this issue. Here
the links for latest mountall packages based on Canonical's 2.12, with
dependency on plymouth removed:

http://media.ubuntuusers.de/forum/attachments/2442423/mountall_2.12-0ingo_amd64.deb
http://media.ubuntuusers.de/forum/attachments/2442423/mountall_2.12-0ingo_i386.deb

I have expanded the version number, so you easily can recognize it also
in synaptic. Also seems to get preference over the original 2.12,
because after installing it, you are no longer bothered with
upgrades/replacements during 'apt-get upgrade'. And in case this should
fail in futuere, you can use apt-pinning to protect this builds:

Package: mountall
Pin: version 2.*ingo*
Pin-Priority: 1001

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[Bug 556372] Re: Please remove the plymouth dependency from mountall / cryptsetup

[Christian Kujau]

Oh, and for "libdrm is the interface to the kernel rendering manager" -
yes, for desktop systems that may be valid. But there's still the
"Ubuntu server" installation. Less dependencies, less code - less
(security) issues.

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[Bug 556372] Re: Please remove the plymouth dependency from mountall / cryptsetup

[Christian Kujau]

Yet anouther workaround: instead of patching (Thanks, Ingo!) mountall
and all the other packages depending on "plymouth" now, one could
install plymouth-pseudo package. This way the dependency would be
satisfied but one can still receive updates on the other Ubuntu
packages:

$ apt-get install equivs
$ equivs-control plymouth-dummy
$ vi plymouth-dummy
[...]

$ grep -v ^\# plymouth-dummy
Section: misc
Priority: optional
Standards-Version: 3.6.2

Package: plymouth-dummy
Provides: plymouth
Version: 1.0
Description: plymouth-dummy, see LP# 556372

$ equivs-build plymouth-dummy 
$ ls -lgo plymouth-dummy*
-rw-r- 1  826 2010-04-08 16:45 plymouth-dummy
-rw-r--r-- 1 2040 2010-04-08 16:47 plymouth-dummy_1.0_all.deb

$ dpkg -i plymouth-dummy_1.0_all.deb

Maybe the "Version:" tag has to be altered at some point later (when
e.g. mountall depends on plymouth-2.0 or something). I did this here and
it's running fine so far. Of course, if at some point they add some
magical functional dependency to plymouth, one would be forced to
install the real "plymouth" eventually.

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[Bug 556372] Re: Please remove the plymouth dependency from mountall / cryptsetup

[ingo]

Canonical has started the race by distributing a 2.12 with plymouth dependency 
added again.
I have taken up the competition, but won't upload the 'corrected version' in 
this tread.

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[Bug 556372] Re: Please remove the plymouth dependency from mountall / cryptsetup

[letstrynl]

I agree with you on the 1st and 2nd part.
It should only be in 10.04 LTS if it's stable. Period. 
It would be nice if plymouth could be removed, especially when it's not totally 
stable.
However I have the fealing that Ubuntu is more or less more testing then stable 
if you compare it to Debian.
But Debian is a bit too conservative for my taste.

You can disable splash on the grub kernel commandline (remove 'quiet splash' 
for all messages in a text screen), isn't it?
Then you have what you want also.

I still have to find out what plymouth does exactly...

You could also mention your opinion as an idea at brainstorm.ubuntu.com,
then people can vote on it.

Let's stop discussing it for now, here at this place. 
It's a buglist, not a forum ;-)

If you find another place where the discussion can continue, I'll be
happy to share my thoughts some further.

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[Bug 556372] Re: Please remove the plymouth dependency from mountall / cryptsetup

[ingo]

Hey letstrynl ,

ok your/Canonical's arguments for plymouth are totally acceptable. On
the other hand, if you consider how much trouble plymouth causes and how
many bugs are still open I do not understand that they put such efforts
and manpower in it, just to get it somehow working for the majority to
the (fixed) release date.

There are really by far more important bugs to be fixed in the essential
base system under the hood - if it is really going to be a good and
reliable LTS-release. There for sure is a good reason, why Debian has
removed plymouth completely form Squeeze and put it back to sid.

What is really NOT acceptable with Ubuntu:
setting intentially a dependency which definitely is not required, just to 
force normal users to install plymouth without a chance to de-install it. Such 
an attitude I'd expect from M$, but not in a Linux distribution.

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[Bug 556372] Re: Please remove the plymouth dependency from mountall / cryptsetup

[letstrynl]

Hey ingo,

I totally understand. I also like to see what's going on.

But...

If Ubuntu wants to be a major desktop (it does), it has to take into account 
that most users don't want to know. 
And users are always right, of course. I guess plymouth plays its part in that.

As for patching the package, I know how to do it (it's been a while though), 
but I want to view this from a users perspective.
So I prefer to let Canonical do it's job on this. A more standard installation 
leads to less problems.

As for the version number, you could also name it 2.11ingo, so you will catch 
2.12 when it comes.
In that case you will have to patch again, if I read the reply above right ;-)

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[Bug 556372] Re: Please remove the plymouth dependency from mountall / cryptsetup

[ingo]

Hi, letstrynl

I am running just a desktop, but I don't like that just eye-catching
plymouth stuff. I prefer to see what's really happening during boot. On
a headless server that's really annoying, think about Debian ;-)

With this dependencies removed all tools, synaptic and apt, are
absolutely happy. The reason therefore is that I increased the version
number by 1 to 2.12. So those tools think it's the latest version and
the one from the repository is older ;-).

So you can perform apt-get update && apt-get upgrade without beeing
bothered with defect dependencies in your packet cache. Until Ubuntu
increases version numer to or above mine, I'll have to ... -> endless
game?

No, if such a race starts, I'll publish howto do the patch (it's just 5
minutes ;-)

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