Re: [Bug 346095] Re: notify-osd doesn't honor my preference
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 10-06-11 05:10 AM, Matthew Paul Thomas wrote: > that item is there only if you installed Ubuntu Jaunty alpha 4 and have > upgraded since then. It is not present in any Ubuntu release version. Sorry, that's simply not true. I've never installed an alpha release. Anyways, how do I rid myself of this? It is sitting there mocking me -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.10 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkwSUNQACgkQst0AR/DaKHvV8wCffTVC5lNkgYhAuTmkbH375xEk a8YAoIiWf7hz7HfqRQDcK/be/iOJnD59 =7rua -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- notify-osd doesn't honor my preference https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/346095 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
Re: [Bug 346095] Re: notify-osd doesn't honor my preference
On Tue, 9 Jun 2009, Derek White wrote: >> Most of us are angry because it is flagged as "Wishlist" and not > "Bug". > > Well, it's not a bug - plain and simple. There is no code in the program > for moving the notification, so how can there be a bug that doesn't > inherent preferences? That's like saying "When I installed Amarok, it > didn't import my Rhythmbox library." Besides, this whole bug or wish- > list thing is just a word to help categorize items. There have been > wish-list items fixed before bug items and vice-versa. It all depends on > who wants to program what at what time. The unfortunate underlying > concept here is that this is Mark S.'s baby and we have to convince him. > :/ Besides all that, isn't there a more proper place to talk about this? > Maybe one where actual developers will directly hear your opinions? It was intended to be a bug filed against the distribution, not the program. In 8.10, I had settings. When I upgraded to 9.04, those settings were dishonored unless I broke ubuntu-desktop and restored the old notification system. I don't know about you, but I don't like breaking important metapackages on my system that might cause me difficulty upgrading to newer yet versions in the future. --- Mike -- notify-osd doesn't honor my preference https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/346095 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
Re: [Bug 346095] Re: notify-osd doesn't honor my preference
Not to mention that you force code that's no-where NEAR complete down the pipes to people who expect a release to have pretty proven code. I will not "wait" for developers to finish, that's what the dev-cycle of this release was for. They should have offered this replacement as experimental and an optional install if they wanted a "break" from criticism. Also, your argument that programs overuse libnotify is mind boggling... The programs that use libnotify wouldn't use libnotify if their users didn't want it to use libnotify. Just like your argument for this new feature... The users who don't like this new notification system can use another one. I'd just like to point out though... that the users of ubuntu will no longer use ubuntu if they no longer like ubuntu. On Tue, Jun 9, 2009 at 4:30 AM, cYbercOsmOnauT wrote: > You get it wrong Derek. > We do not complain that it takes too long until notify-osd is fixed. Most > of us are angry because it is flagged as "Wishlist" and not "Bug". It means > the developer say "It's okay so and when we find time we will look if we can > take care of your wish that the new notification is adjustable" and not > "It's a bug and we will fix it as soon as possible". > > -- > notify-osd doesn't honor my preference > https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/346095 > You received this bug notification because you are a direct subscriber > of the bug. > > Status in “notify-osd” source package in Ubuntu: Confirmed > > Bug description: > Binary package hint: notify-osd > > It appears that notify-osd doesn't bother to see if I had settings from > previously and attempt to adopt them. I want a way to put my notifications > down at the bottom right of the screen and stack upward, where they are > closer to the places I actually work on the screen. > > This bug is a regression from Ubuntu's previous notification-dæmon system. > -- notify-osd doesn't honor my preference https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/346095 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
RE: [Bug 346095] Re: notify-osd doesn't honor my preference
> Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2009 21:02:00 + > From: seb...@ubuntu.com > To: ktp...@live.com > Subject: [Bug 346095] Re: notify-osd doesn't honor my preference > > the softwares are different the upstream mode allow to not use ubuntu > changes for people who want the upstream experience, that's not limited > to the notification bubbles and not a sign that one is better, they are > just a difference experience > OK this is the last time I am going to try to get this through. We all know that notify-osd is new and we all agree that notify-OSD replaced notification-daemon right. Now notification-daemon allowed for some features and notify-osd does not have them now. This bug is one of this change. There are plenty of others...which I really don't want to go into since it is pointless. If you really care then you can read the forumns or article posted. And my point was maybe it would have been better to have notify-osd as an option, like ext4, for the first release. This would have given everyone, including user and application developers time to explore and give feedback. This would have also allowed Ubuntu to give better api/doc/examples showing the differences in new system to old and how to better use the new system. It would have even been better if you allowed user to purge notify-osd without having to remove the ubuntu meta package. It seems like decissions were made to push it on to user just because it is someones great big idea. _ Rediscover Hotmail®: Get e-mail storage that grows with you. http://windowslive.com/RediscoverHotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_Rediscover_Storage2_042009 -- notify-osd doesn't honor my preference https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/346095 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
RE: [Bug 346095] Re: notify-osd doesn't honor my preference
> Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2009 17:50:15 + > From: seb...@ubuntu.com > To: ktp...@live.com > Subject: [Bug 346095] Re: notify-osd doesn't honor my preference > > nothing has been dropped, a new software has been written which doesn't > have as many option that the previous one, which is normal for a new > software, feature might be added in next version > Something is dropped when new software replaces the old one. I think it was you who said you can go back to the old one using another session. If it was not dropped then why would you need to do that. _ Windows Live™: Keep your life in sync. http://windowslive.com/explore?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_allup_1a_explore_042009 -- notify-osd doesn't honor my preference https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/346095 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
Re: [Bug 346095] Re: notify-osd doesn't honor my preference
On Sat, 18 Apr 2009 16:00:08 - Sebastien Bacher wrote: > whatever change you do you will always who prefered the previous way, > it's easy to find rants about any software change that doesn't mean > that the changes don't make sense Clearly, you didn't bother to take the time to actually read the bug report. What do you people think the issue is anyway? I filed the bug report, because there is a real problem. If you don't think so, go away. Mark it invalid (again). Do whatever, since y'alls pride and ego are more important than system accessibility. Why should I bother filing bug reports, when it takes so much effort to defend them for something that is so simple? Why should I bother testing a system that isn't going to address the issues in the first place? Hell, why bother releasing things for people to test if you don't care about the results of that testing? --- mike -- If you are a professional writer ... Emacs outshines all other editing software in approximately the same way that the noonday sun does the stars. It is not just bigger and brighter; it simply makes everything else vanish.--- Neal Stephenson -- notify-osd doesn't honor my preference https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/346095 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
RE: [Bug 346095] Re: notify-osd doesn't honor my preference
> whatever change you do you will always who prefered the previous way, > it's easy to find rants about any software change that doesn't mean that > the changes don't make sense > It is clear that you have not read the article. Everyone has rights to rants, if that is what you want to call it, when you start taking away features or replace them with something that does not work and possibly breaking existing applications. I guess it is not that big a deal to have backward compatibility. Hack everything is open source and everyone can change and build it so who cares right??? _ Windows Live™: Life without walls. http://windowslive.com/explore?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_allup_1b_explore_042009 -- notify-osd doesn't honor my preference https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/346095 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
Re: [Bug 346095] Re: notify-osd doesn't honor my preference
It's obvious by the size of this thread that you've upset far more people than you anticipated. Why can't we come to a solution that will let everyone have what they want and include some configuration options? On Sat, Apr 18, 2009 at 12:00 PM, Sebastien Bacher wrote: > > You can read the forums or this article for an example > > whatever change you do you will always who prefered the previous way, > it's easy to find rants about any software change that doesn't mean that > the changes don't make sense > > -- > notify-osd doesn't honor my preference > https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/346095 > You received this bug notification because you are a direct subscriber > of the bug. > > Status in “notify-osd” source package in Ubuntu: Confirmed > > Bug description: > Binary package hint: notify-osd > > It appears that notify-osd doesn't bother to see if I had settings from > previously and attempt to adopt them. I want a way to put my notifications > down at the bottom right of the screen and stack upward, where they are > closer to the places I actually work on the screen. > > This bug is a regression from Ubuntu's previous notification-dæmon system. > -- notify-osd doesn't honor my preference https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/346095 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
RE: [Bug 346095] Re: notify-osd doesn't honor my preference
> Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2009 09:52:08 + > From: seb...@ubuntu.com > To: ktp...@live.com > Subject: [Bug 346095] Re: notify-osd doesn't honor my preference > > in reply to the comments about notify-osd being rushed, it's stable and > working fine according to the testing and user feedback, it might not be > flexible enough for some users but features can't always be added > immediatly and notification-daemon for those who feel they can't work > without those options (the feedback is that most users are fine with the > standard behaviour and find the new bubbles looking better than what was > available before though it's not fair to say that the code was ready to > be pushed to users) > I am not saying that users don't like the new fancy looking black bubble. They do and that is why they would like it to be configurable. I am talking about from the dev perspective and feature parity between the new system and old system it replaced. You can read the forums or this article for an example: http://glyph.twistedmatrix.com/2009/04/notification-disappointment-in- ubuntu.html _ Windows Live™: Life without walls. http://windowslive.com/explore?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_allup_1b_explore_042009 -- notify-osd doesn't honor my preference https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/346095 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
Re: [Bug 346095] Re: notify-osd doesn't honor my preference
Several users in this thread either don't know C, or don't have the time. So they cannot help & provide this missing functionality, usability/accessibility bug. Call it how you want. The one person who has effectively done something, is scared to even propose his work for inclusion, as (I guess) he feels it would simply be rejected based on "it's not up to our quality standards". Neither the devs, or the users, are moving towards an acceptable fix, that would require a code change. Would it be difficult to take these 3 packages: ubuntu-desktop, notification-daemon and notify-osd and do the following: ubuntu-desktop depends on "notification-provider" notification-daemon: "provides notification-provider, conflicts or replaces notify-osd" notify-osd: "provides notification-provider, conflicts or replaces notification-daemon" A fresh installation could have notify-osd installed by default, and upgrading users could have the choice of which notification mechanism they want, either during upgrade (if possible), or with a release note. Would this be workable and acceptable ? -- notify-osd doesn't honor my preference https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/346095 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
RE: [Bug 346095] Re: notify-osd doesn't honor my preference
> Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 20:17:57 + > From: mat.tomaszew...@canonical.com > To: ktp...@live.com > Subject: Re: [Bug 346095] Re: notify-osd doesn't honor my preference > > Julian, thanks for being the first person who, instead of complaing, > actually did something. > I would do something about it but like most of the other users (guessing here), I am not C program. Sorry if that means I can't raise an issue. > To all others that have spoken: your voice is being heard and is not > ignored. But please have patience - we don't have 300 developers here, > and every piece of software must first be stable, before it can be > upgraded/changed. > I think someone made a point about this, and questions were raised why was this rushed in so quickly...specially when the new notification system took functionality way from existing. Wouldn't have been better not to make it default in this release and given option to let user test drive it and get feedback from user and dev...kind of like how ext4 is done. I know it is hard to please everyone so thanks for letting use raise issues and listening/taking notes. _ Windows Live™: Keep your life in sync. http://windowslive.com/explore?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_allup_1a_explore_042009 -- notify-osd doesn't honor my preference https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/346095 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
Re: [Bug 346095] Re: notify-osd doesn't honor my preference
On Fri, 17 Apr 2009 22:30:51 - jucs wrote: > you're absolutely right that I did not use the best way to spread my > changes. But still, I'm not sure, if it would be such a good idea to > put this up here openly - even though I think I didn't do any harm > (such as memory leaks or so), I'm sure the developers would kill me > if they saw my code. > > Maybe I'll find the time to make things at least a little more polish > (I'd start with giving variables the right names, they still refer to > top corners). But I'm sure those with little more C knowledge and > knowledge of that project could do that a big lot better. Even just a bzr branch would be good, then some of us with less time that could use a starting point might be able to take five minutes and look it over. That's better than nothing. :) > I think I should also say something to your criticism. Of course this > not a feature (a configuration file doesn't do any harm). But I still > consider open source software as a present. And actually, I think > those bubbles aren't done too bad (if we didn't like them, we'd all > be free to use the old notification daemon). > > I don't think it's fair to be so hard on those developers. We've still > got every possible choice - first, we can avoid their software and > second, we can just alter the source and do whatever we want. I do try not to be hard on people. That said, this notify-osd ordeal has been one issue after another. For example, they made it hard to go back to notification-dæmon, because they made ubuntu-desktop depend on notify-osd. That means that "apt-get --purge remove notify-osd" yields in not having the ubuntu-desktop metapackage, which means that if they make updates to the set of required software for the desktop, (e.g., add new conflicts or anything like that), those updates cannot be received. Someone had to go out of their way to add that dependency, and that means that they had to think about it. I wouldn't be mad at _all_ if the bug report would have been accepted. I wouldn't be mad at all even if the response was, "You know what, we can't get to this now, but we'll look at it for Karmic." I wouldn't be mad if the response would have been anything more than that, either. However, the initial (and continued) responses have been such that it's nearly like I don't matter. I realize that I am nearly statistically insignificant in the sea of Ubuntu users, but the treatment I have received on this bug report is something that I would expect from a corporation who doesn't care about its users, not from a company that is working on open source, community-oriented software and whose goal is to try to improve the reach and quality of that software. The problem is compounded by the fact that of late, many real issues are being summarily rejected---or worse, ignored---even amazingly stupidly simple issues that _already_ have fixes available for them. I fixed an issue, for example, in Hardy that only just a day or so ago was finally pushed into Hardy. I submitted the fix for that a week or two maybe before Hardy was released, or maybe a week or two after, I can't remember now. But it was to fix a metapackage that was uninstallable. Yet again, in Jaunty, the same one is uninstallable---and it's probably just a single-line change to resolve the broken dependency in the tree, but it's being ignored. The quality of the distribution is suffering as a result of this. These are all problems that a very viable solution was promised for and never delivered---having a continual-development rolling-release would lower the bar in terms of requirements for fixing such minor issues and create a much better turnaround and higher-quality testing in-between releases. Grumpy Groundhog was supposed to be just that, and that idea never materialized for whatever reason. But if it had, there'd be a much larger, more persistent testing base of users who would be able to report bugs more quickly (closer to when they were introduced into the system) and when it came time for a release, all that would need to be done is to have the new release be branched from a stable high-point in the rolling release. It'd make releases easier to test, because they'd for the most part _already_ be tested. And stupid issues like usability issues and packaging bugs would be ironed out long before the first alpha, if not the first beta. The (very real) inaccessibility of notify-osd isn't the straw that broke this camel's back. The treatment as a result of filing the bug, and seeing the treatment other users that have brought up similar issues with it have received, _that_ was. > Oh and I'm sorry for my English ;-) I was able to understand it, so it wasn't that bad. :) --- Mike -- Emacs is an acronym for Escape Meta Alt Control Shift. -- notify-osd doesn't honor my preference https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/346095 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is
Re: [Bug 346095] Re: notify-osd doesn't honor my preference
First things first: jucs, can you put a debdiff up here? Or at the very least a patch against current "apt-get source"? Thank you! On Fri, 17 Apr 2009 20:17:57 - Mat Tomaszewski wrote: > Julian, thanks for being the first person who, instead of complaing, > actually did something. Some of us who use the system have full plates and _don't_ have the time to do anything about it. Some of us are working on client-paid work, and use Ubuntu to get our work done. Some of us expect to be able to use our systems. Some of us expect to not be talked down to when filing a bug that is a bug, caused by someone's inability to (not) see what I can't. You know what? I didn't have a problem with notify-osd, the concept. But the sheer arrogance of: * making ubuntu-desktop depend on it, * marking the bug invalid in the first place, assuming that I meant something other than what I said. * not bothering to read the bug (Intrepid is not "an alpha release", it is my previous release and where I expected my settings to be carried from). * That _every_ place that this issue has been brought up that I can find, the person who brings it up gets shot down, even by Mark. > To all others that have spoken: your voice is being heard and is not > ignored. But please have patience - we don't have 300 developers > here, and every piece of software must first be stable, before it can > be upgraded/changed. As a developer who already has _far_ too much on his plate and hasn't looked at the notify-osd package source yet, I can say at least these things: * If the people who wrote it couldn't make this trivial change quickly, it is designed _wrong_. * Your (Canonical's) condescension towards those with visual problems is duly noted since we're just a bunch of complainers anyway. I'm not blind, but I don't have perfect vision, and a large display area. What was *...@canonical.com's response? Hrm. See earlier in this bug. * If the software isn't stable, _why_ is it in a release? It should be postponed for Karmic, if it is not stable. Oh, maybe that Grumpy Groundhog can come out and play if Ubuntu wants rolling development and people to test it. I'd run it if it bloody existed. Well, I would have a year or even six months ago---I don't know that I would anymore. * Your message ignores the issues: - YOUR developers made it hard to uninstall notify-osd. - YOUR developers made it hard to _SEE_ notify-osd, at least for _some_ users (hi, us busy overworked not-quite-blind complainers). - YOUR processes permitted this piece of unstable software (your words, not mine) into a distribution to be released Real Soon Now. Was that a decision to make it so that stability of notify-osd came after code freeze in Ubuntu and we'd be stuck? Was it lack of forethought? I have used Ubuntu on the desktop for a long time because so far it's been a good choice. It's offered me *_choice_*, and it's offered me recent software that I wanted, not ancient stuff like Debian does. While the latter still exists, the former doesn't seem to matter as much to Canonical anymore as it used to. Nor do bug reporters seem to matter to Canonical very much anymore, looking at the live email feed of bugs generally. Your message as well as most of the other @canonical.com messages in this bug, and in other bugs elsewhere for things like regressions and packaging errors show this quite well. Ubuntu has a problem, and it's _far_ bigger than notify-osd. -- The problem with quick and dirty, as some people have said, is that the dirty remains long after the quick has been forgotten. --- Steve McConnell -- notify-osd doesn't honor my preference https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/346095 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
Re: [Bug 346095] Re: notify-osd doesn't honor my preference
jucs wrote: > Hi there! > > I've upgraded to Ubuntu 9.04 today and also hated to be forced to have > those notifications on the top of the screen, even though I have my only > panel on the bottom. > > I did not want to wait until you may make your decision; so fixed it > myself. As I am a C-beginner my solution is too ugly to put online. > Still, if someone is interested in getting a fast fix for now, you may > email me at juliankr...@yahoo.de. > > Julian, thanks for being the first person who, instead of complaing, actually did something. To all others that have spoken: your voice is being heard and is not ignored. But please have patience - we don't have 300 developers here, and every piece of software must first be stable, before it can be upgraded/changed. Thanks. -- notify-osd doesn't honor my preference https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/346095 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
Re: [Bug 346095] Re: notify-osd doesn't honor my preference
On Mon, 06 Apr 2009 11:54:07 - Mat Tomaszewski wrote: > Thanks everyone for the comments. > > The balance between configurability and making software reliable, > elegant and efficient is always very tricky. Michael, your problems > with peripheral vision are a valid signal that there may be a design > issue there. Thanks for bringing this up. Thank _you_ for reopening this for consideration. I greatly appreciate it, and I do hope that this bug can become fixed. It will be a great help to be able to have the notifications display in a region of the screen where I can easily see them. I currently miss many of them because I sometimes only notice them after they've been up for most of the length of the timeout. Making the timeout longer isn't that helpful since it takes a serialized approach to displaying the notifications, really making the only viable solution (at least for me) being the ability to relocate them. Given the design of the rest of the system, I don't see it as being too much or too confusing to let people do just that. Thank you again. > Notify OSD is a brand new package and we're constantly gathering > information about various problems and requests. Any such issue raised > that becomes a trend or is verified by user testing will be addressed, > and - if necessary - the functionality will be changed. Please > understand though that this won't happen overnight :) Hardly. Everything takes time. The biggest frustrating thing was simply being shot down without consideration for the issue. I know and realize that there are many applications that have too many knobs; any application system that has too much in the way of configurability will become confusing; the answer doesn't lie in the other end of the spectrum, though. Even if notify-osd's only config tweaking happens in gconf and has to be accessed by gconf-editor, that is good enough. After all, it could re-use the /apps/notification-daemon configuration, or simply copy its popup_location key to /apps/notify-osd. Thank you again. --- Mike -- notify-osd doesn't honor my preference https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/346095 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
RE: [Bug 346095] Re: notify-osd doesn't honor my preference
> Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2009 10:00:53 + > From: m...@canonical.com > To: ktp...@live.com > Subject: [Bug 346095] Re: notify-osd doesn't honor my preference > > Sure. Every extra option makes the interface more complex, which reduces > learnability and memorability for the system as a whole. (In > pathological cases it can reduce efficiency too, if popular options are > buried alongside obscure options in a deep hierarchy. Evolution's and > OpenOffice.org's preferences are unfortunate examples of this.) Every > extra option also makes the code more complex, which makes it more > likely to have bugs, reducing satisfaction. So in this case, it is more important to have learnability and memorability. And efficiency and satisfaction is not that important. I mean the point of the notification is to inform the user about something, which could be information or errors. Now if the user finds it hard to use the feature, then doesn't this make it not safe since user can miss something important. I know you will never find perfect setup which will make everyone happy. That is why we have options. Let people decide and customize so the user is satisfied and the efficiency increases. Customize does not mean the user has to change code and rebuild and do this after every update. If you feel that this is something that most average user will not need, then why not provide option that is not easily seen in the UI but can be configured in case the users who do need to customize it can. As for learnability, at least in this case, average user is most likely going to be coming for the Windows world. In that world, all the notification are on bottom right. So doesn't going to top right make it harder on the average beginner user of this system. Besides I don't really see any point in taking this any further becaue it seems like the person(s) making the decission as already decissed what is the best for the user. And I am sure there were some user studies done on this. _ Windows Live™ SkyDrive: Get 25 GB of free online storage. http://windowslive.com/online/skydrive?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_skydrive_032009 -- notify-osd doesn't honor my preference https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/346095 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
Re: [Bug 346095] Re: notify-osd doesn't honor my preference
On Wed, 25 Mar 2009 10:00:53 - Matthew Paul Thomas wrote: > That doesn't mean all options are bad. Sometimes an option would > improve efficiency or satisfaction for some fraction of existing or > potential users; and the improvement and the fraction may, together, > be large enough to outweigh the option's disadvantages. (For example, > accessibility options may be useful for very few people, but they can > make a dramatic difference to whether those people can use the system > at all.) So a proposal to add an option is most likely to be > successful if it makes some effort to describe what sort of people > would benefit, and how they would benefit. Just saying "It's a > usability issue" is unhelpfully vague. Not seeing how, even after it *has* been explained here, is just being obtuse. I am *quite* sure that I am not the only person who has poor peripheral vision and whose attention is largely focused on one quadrant of the screen. It clearly makes it easier for me if I can have the notifications pop up in the area of the screen where I am most likely to see them. This neither causes bloat nor makes the application unintelligible. For all of the statements you've made, all you have done is secure the point that we're trying to make in the first place that they should be configurable in terms of placement. I am not asking that it be configurable in terms of colors, shades, fonts, placement, duration, serial alerts or parallel alerts, and everything else. That'd clearly be a bit much, especially since any application should use those settings from the base system, anyway. But when it comes to visibility, for me and others like me (I *strongly* doubt that I am the only person that works around his/her vision issues in the way that I do, by positioning screen elements where I can see them), it doesn't take much thought to realize that this is a usability issue. If it does, you're thinking about it wrong. notify-osd isn't the only thing where treatment like this from Canonical is becoming a regular issue. I'm noticing treatment like this in reporting even very obvious bugs that should never have made it into the release, where it's being looked at as a non-issue and probably won't be fixed. At least one of those bugs (re: the gnome meta package) is a repeat offender and will be broken for yet another release. Oh, well, I guess. Why bother filing reports, if they're just going to get ignored and argued until they no longer matter because the releases are supposed to be as immutable as possible, and with immutable releases, fixing trivial bugs becomes artifically difficult? Maybe we should file a bug report (or series of them) on how bugs are handled in Launchpad for the Ubuntu project. Or maybe that'd be just a large a waste of time. --- Mike -- notify-osd doesn't honor my preference https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/346095 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
Re: [Bug 346095] Re: notify-osd doesn't honor my preference
On Tue, 24 Mar 2009 13:15:02 - Matthew Paul Thomas wrote: > It's very common for replacement components to have different levels > of configurability from what they are replacing. For example, if we > decided to replace Pidgin with Empathy as the default IM client, that > wouldn't in itself mean Empathy was wrong not to offer a "Use > smooth-scrolling" option or a "Use status from last exit at startup" > option like Pidgin does. Similarly if we decided to replace Rhythmbox > with Banshee as the default music player, that wouldn't in itself > mean Banshee was wrong not to offer a "Toolbar Button Labels" setting > like Rhythmbox does. If you're going to propose that Notify OSD have > a particular option, advocating for it on its own merits (for > example, what sort of people would use the different setting values?) > would be much more interesting than "well, notification-daemon had a > gconf option for that". You're going to compare "Please let me put the notifications in a place where it is easier for my eye to see them so that I can work with them" with "please give me back a superficial feature that doesn't really matter and just makes me feel better because it uses more CPU cycles"? Seriously? Do you _have_ any intelligence? Or are you just following the fearless leader? This is a _bug_. Maybe you're fine, and maybe it is easy for your eye to catch the notifications up at the top-right, but it isn't for mine. Period. It's a usability issue. That's what you don't seem to get. Smooth scrolling isn't a usability issue. There is _zero_ basis for comparison. > ktp420, you're quite correct to point out that the average user is not > going to want to recompile software. But that's fine, because they are > not going to want to configure the bubble placement either. We could > be wrong about that; the beauty of Free Software is that if we are > wrong, you can make your own variant and it will be wildly popular. No, the average user is going to want to make his or her desktop accessible to his or her usage style and patterns. I suppose the side-effect of being able to claim the beauty of free software is that we are blessed with people who can be lazy because they choose to do so and not implement accessibility features. Seriously. Have you not considered that some people have piss-poor peripheral vision? That those people will be likely to be the ones to move their damn notifications closer to where they are looking _all the time_ on their monitors? Oh, hi there. I am one of those. Fuck you, too. This is a very Microsoft thing to do. Not only that, but it breaks _my_ system, for _me_. And hell, no, I won't fork notify-osd. There was no reason to create it in the first place, IMHO. There was absolutely nothing wrong with notification-dæmon. It would appear that Intrepid is as far as I go; I cannot go anywhere else with a distribution that would propose to know how I want to use my system better than I do. Assholes. -- notify-osd doesn't honor my preference https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/346095 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
Re: [Bug 346095] Re: notify-osd doesn't honor my preference
On Mon, 23 Mar 2009 15:32:27 -
Mat Tomaszewski wrote:
> No need for such harsh tone and strong emotions just because your
> question was misunderstood.
>
> We designed the notification system with the default setting (panel
> at the top) in mind. The beauty of free software is that you can
> modify it if you want to, to best suit your needs...
Sorry, seriously.
That said, this is not the first "misunderstanding" that has been had
over this new notification system.
It seems like everyone involved in its development dismiss any issues
with it as "that's a design thing". Even Mark says that it will never
be customizable within Ubuntu because that isn't what it is designed to
do. That means, for people like me, that it is broken.
The real problem? The reason I'm getting my pants in a twist? That
type of mentality ("we know better than the users, make the software
think it knows better than the user, too") is _precisely_ the reason
that I don't use Windows.
Closing a legitimate regression (read: regression in Ubuntu, because it
cannot possibly be a regression in notify-osd since it is new)? We
might as well close bug 1 as invalid, wontfix.
--- Mike
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Re: [Bug 346095] Re: notify-osd doesn't honor my preference
Michael B. Trausch wrote: > On Mon, 23 Mar 2009 10:02:03 - > Matthew Paul Thomas wrote: > > >> We are sorry that Jaunty alpha 5 accidentally shipped with the >> "Notification Settings" utility that applied only to notification- >> daemon, when 9.04 is not going to ship with notification-daemon. But >> this mistake has been fixed since before alpha 6 (bug 332014). So this >> is not a regression: the bubble position wasn't graphically >> customizable in 8.10, and it won't be graphically customizable in >> 9.04 either. It's not reasonable to say that Notify OSD doesn't >> "bother to see if I had settings from previously", where "previously" >> means "a bug in an alpha release". >> > > Previously (read: under Intrepid) my notifications came from the bottom > right and stacked up. notify-osd gets it all wrong. What makes you > guys think you know what I want on my system better than I do? > > This notification system really rubs me the wrong way, and the > snobbishness surrounding it does, too. > > Whatever. If it doesn't get fixed, I (or someone else) will fix it in > a PPA, more likely than not. > > No need for such harsh tone and strong emotions just because your question was misunderstood. We designed the notification system with the default setting (panel at the top) in mind. The beauty of free software is that you can modify it if you want to, to best suit your needs... M. -- notify-osd doesn't honor my preference https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/346095 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
Re: [Bug 346095] Re: notify-osd doesn't honor my preference
On Mon, 23 Mar 2009 10:02:03 - Matthew Paul Thomas wrote: > We are sorry that Jaunty alpha 5 accidentally shipped with the > "Notification Settings" utility that applied only to notification- > daemon, when 9.04 is not going to ship with notification-daemon. But > this mistake has been fixed since before alpha 6 (bug 332014). So this > is not a regression: the bubble position wasn't graphically > customizable in 8.10, and it won't be graphically customizable in > 9.04 either. It's not reasonable to say that Notify OSD doesn't > "bother to see if I had settings from previously", where "previously" > means "a bug in an alpha release". Previously (read: under Intrepid) my notifications came from the bottom right and stacked up. notify-osd gets it all wrong. What makes you guys think you know what I want on my system better than I do? This notification system really rubs me the wrong way, and the snobbishness surrounding it does, too. Whatever. If it doesn't get fixed, I (or someone else) will fix it in a PPA, more likely than not. --- Mike -- notify-osd doesn't honor my preference https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/346095 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
