Re: [Bug 518856] Re: Support ends dialog should auto-detect universe
On 25/02/10 16:16, Michael Vogt wrote: This is fixed in bzr now and will be part of the next upload. It will display a different text depending on if universe is enabled or not. As for your comments in #3 - this is how we do it currently, packages that were obsolete before are not touched. Packages that become obsolete during the upgrade will be removed. This leaves the gray area of packages that are demoted to universe but not removed from the archive. Historically we have kept them on the users system if the user has universe enabled (most have) to not disrupt the users habits. I think the key question is whether they were in main and installed by default, or just in main. If they were installed by default, then we should remove them. If they were not installed by default, then leave them because they were clearly selected by the user. This is a tricky area because e.g. when we move from gthumb (that is in universe now) to f-spot in the default install and would remove gthumb from the users system, then f-spot will not know how to import the gthumb catalogs, folders, bookmarks etc. So the user will have a new photo management application without photos. Depending on how technical he/she is,that can be a scary experience because he will not know if the photos are gone as well. So he needs to setup f-spot in the way he wants (import folders, etc) or manually go to software-center and get it back. We should not switch horses without providing an upgrade script which moves the content/bookmarks/preferences/accounts. Mark -- Support ends dialog should auto-detect universe https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/518856 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
Re: [Bug 518856] Re: Support ends dialog should auto-detect universe
On Thu, Feb 25, 2010 at 05:40:32PM +, Mark Shuttleworth wrote: On 25/02/10 16:16, Michael Vogt wrote: This is fixed in bzr now and will be part of the next upload. It will display a different text depending on if universe is enabled or not. As for your comments in #3 - this is how we do it currently, packages that were obsolete before are not touched. Packages that become obsolete during the upgrade will be removed. This leaves the gray area of packages that are demoted to universe but not removed from the archive. Historically we have kept them on the users system if the user has universe enabled (most have) to not disrupt the users habits. I think the key question is whether they were in main and installed by default, or just in main. If they were installed by default, then we should remove them. If they were not installed by default, then leave them because they were clearly selected by the user. Yes, I think this is a good policy. This is a tricky area because e.g. when we move from gthumb (that is in universe now) to f-spot in the default install and would remove gthumb from the users system, then f-spot will not know how to import the gthumb catalogs, folders, bookmarks etc. So the user will have a new photo management application without photos. Depending on how technical he/she is,that can be a scary experience because he will not know if the photos are gone as well. So he needs to setup f-spot in the way he wants (import folders, etc) or manually go to software-center and get it back. We should not switch horses without providing an upgrade script which moves the content/bookmarks/preferences/accounts. We have been lax in the past about ensuring that. Or even that they are on par when it comes to features. To stress the gthumb - f-spot example again, gthumb can play videos, f-spot can not. Of course this kind of switch is the exception. But I agree of course that we shouldn't bother the user with the fact that sreadahead is no longer in main. This cycle we also replaced xsane with simple-scan, I will enquire to see if they have the same set of features and if there is a upgrade route (or if we need one). To me it sounds like the way forward is: - show a slideshow to communicate when existing apps get replaced - ditch support-ended dialog in GUI mode entirely *or* - show only high level apps in the GUI support ended dialog (and find a reliable way to identify them) *or* - fold the support ended dialog into the Are you ready to rock^W Do you want to start the the upgrade? dialog as one more item that goes into the details What do you think? Or would you prefer me to contact the design team to get input on the above questions? Thanks, Michael -- Support ends dialog should auto-detect universe https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/518856 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
Re: [Bug 518856] Re: Support ends dialog should auto-detect universe
On 25/02/10 20:52, Michael Vogt wrote: To me it sounds like the way forward is: - show a slideshow to communicate when existing apps get replaced - ditch support-ended dialog in GUI mode entirely *or* - show only high level apps in the GUI support ended dialog (and find a reliable way to identify them) *or* - fold the support ended dialog into the Are you ready to rock^W Do you want to start the the upgrade? dialog as one more item that goes into the details I'd go with this latter option. I would also only put in the high level apps, by which I mean the things which show up in add/remove. What do you think? Or would you prefer me to contact the design team to get input on the above questions? No, you can document this and ask MPT to review it. Mark -- Support ends dialog should auto-detect universe https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/518856 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
Re: [Bug 518856] Re: Support ends dialog should auto-detect universe
On 25/02/10 21:04, Sebastien Bacher wrote: If they were installed by default, then we should remove them. I would say the choice for those is not that easy, you often have cases where the old default software had options or features that the new one doesn't have (ie empathy doesn't do otr where pidgin does and some users have been using that for years and wouldn't understand what happens if that stopped working on upgrade without explanation). We should look at getting some better infrastructure to handle upgrades next cycle, asking users after upgrade if they want to learn about the changes in the new version and give them enough informations to take an informed decision on those We have to take responsibility for our decisions to migrate to newer software. If we have dropped Pidgin from the default install today, we will drop it from main tomorrow. And then the user will be running unsupported software. We should do a damn good migration, as good as it can be, and remove the old software. The user *can* reinstall it, but then it is a conscious decision. It will make switching harder, but it will make the decision more realistic. We are fooling ourselves if we think users will just figure this out, or love us for abandoning them on old software. Mark -- Support ends dialog should auto-detect universe https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/518856 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
Re: [Bug 518856] Re: Support ends dialog should auto-detect universe
On 25/02/10 23:21, Sebastien Bacher wrote: remove the old software. The user *can* reinstall it, but then it is a conscious decision. there is nothing done right know to explain those changes though, $user is happily running hardy is happily using pidgin as messaging client for 2 years now and upgrade to lucid, after reboot the ui changed and talking to his friends using otr stops working. technical users might think ok, empathy doesn't do otr, I need to install pidgin back, normal users most likely will get stucked thinking lucid is broken. We don't install otr by default, do we? So the user installed it for themselves? They can figure it out then. We are fooling ourselves if we think users will just figure this out, or love us for abandoning them on old software. Getting a perfect replacement is hard though, especially that sometime the old softwares has features we don't consider useful and don't want to put back in the new system. We should be able to inform the user though: if you use one of this features ... you might want to reinstall old_software or look for an alternative since that is not supported on $newdistro rather than just break things under their feet silently There is a tough choice to be faced. It's best for us to do the best migration we can, for that user. If the user wants to install the old software, fine. But if we don't do the migration, the user is going to have to do it when their software becomes obsolete. We absolutely should factor the cost of the migration script into the decision. Mark -- Support ends dialog should auto-detect universe https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/518856 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
Re: [Bug 518856] Re: Support ends dialog should auto-detect universe
I think we want to differentiate between packages which are already present that are obsolete when the upgrade starts (those might be things the user has manually installed, which we should not uninstall) and those which are obsoleted by virtue of the upgrade (i.e. they were there in Karmic but not in Lucid). The latter things are decisions *we* took, so we can just uninstall them. The former things are decisions *they* took, so we could ask about those. Mark -- Support ends dialog should auto-detect universe https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/518856 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
