Re: fontconfig vs. Gnome
On Thursday 05 March 2009 11:30:24 Alexander Sack wrote: > On Thu, Mar 05, 2009 at 06:36:07PM +, Matthew Paul Thomas wrote: > > -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- > > Hash: SHA1 > > > > Rick Spencer wrote on 05/03/09 17:44: > > >... > > > Could you please tell us exactly how you think this should work? What > > > is your preference for how the user should configure the options? > > >... > > > > If we think the setting recommended by fontconfig is likely good, it > > should be the radio button selected by default in the Font preferences. > > For example, if fontconfig recommends subpixel smoothing, "Subpixel > > smoothing" should be selected by default in the Font preferences. > > > > To cater for the case of someone who changed the setting days or weeks > > ago and isn't sure what to change it back to, the string > > " (recommended)" could follow the label for whichever option is > > recommended by fontconfig. For example, if fontconfig recommends Best > > shapes for your display, that option could appear as "Best shapes > > (recommended)". > > > > If fontconfig allows other useful options not available in the Font > > preferences (such as a minimum size for anti-aliasing text, or never > > anti-aliasing kanji), then they should be made available individually in > > a future release. A take-it-or-leave-it "Automatic" checkbox would not > > be an obvious way of setting those options either. > > Thanks for finally providing some input :). Anyway, I prefer > incremental changes that bring us forward instead of not doing > anything because we are blocked on ETOOMUCHTODO, or even > EITSNOTUNDERSTOOD. > > That said, nothing is perfect and there are always ways to do things > better, its just that you need a plan (and not just an idea) as in the > end someone has to do the groundwork and implement it. > > In the long run gnome should speak fontconfig, I agree, but for now my > approach seems reasonable, and honestly, its not really bad UI wise > either. Also we need to learn what particular parts of fontconfig > users would want to tweak. Offering everything would definitly lead to > UI bloat. For now, its just automatic, vs. manual and using a checkbox > for that isn't that bad - I like that and its a good start to build on > top. > > So my suggestion: we do it as I suggested (we can always tweak here and > there if its really a bad thing) now; then based on the experiences > and feedback we get out of this, we can discuss and improve and > finally come up with a perfect gnome UI for this, make a spec out of > it and implement it. > > - Alexander Alexander, This sounds a little complex. Could I (re)suggest that we simply force everyone to default to subpixel smoothing in Jaunty? In other words, still allow GNOME to override fontconfig, but have force a different option? Cheers, Rick -- ubuntu-desktop mailing list ubuntu-desktop@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-desktop
Re: fontconfig vs. Gnome
On Thu, Mar 05, 2009 at 06:36:07PM +, Matthew Paul Thomas wrote: > -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- > Hash: SHA1 > > Rick Spencer wrote on 05/03/09 17:44: > >... > > Could you please tell us exactly how you think this should work? What > > is your preference for how the user should configure the options? > >... > > If we think the setting recommended by fontconfig is likely good, it > should be the radio button selected by default in the Font preferences. > For example, if fontconfig recommends subpixel smoothing, "Subpixel > smoothing" should be selected by default in the Font preferences. > > To cater for the case of someone who changed the setting days or weeks > ago and isn't sure what to change it back to, the string > " (recommended)" could follow the label for whichever option is > recommended by fontconfig. For example, if fontconfig recommends Best > shapes for your display, that option could appear as "Best shapes > (recommended)". > > If fontconfig allows other useful options not available in the Font > preferences (such as a minimum size for anti-aliasing text, or never > anti-aliasing kanji), then they should be made available individually in > a future release. A take-it-or-leave-it "Automatic" checkbox would not > be an obvious way of setting those options either. Thanks for finally providing some input :). Anyway, I prefer incremental changes that bring us forward instead of not doing anything because we are blocked on ETOOMUCHTODO, or even EITSNOTUNDERSTOOD. That said, nothing is perfect and there are always ways to do things better, its just that you need a plan (and not just an idea) as in the end someone has to do the groundwork and implement it. In the long run gnome should speak fontconfig, I agree, but for now my approach seems reasonable, and honestly, its not really bad UI wise either. Also we need to learn what particular parts of fontconfig users would want to tweak. Offering everything would definitly lead to UI bloat. For now, its just automatic, vs. manual and using a checkbox for that isn't that bad - I like that and its a good start to build on top. So my suggestion: we do it as I suggested (we can always tweak here and there if its really a bad thing) now; then based on the experiences and feedback we get out of this, we can discuss and improve and finally come up with a perfect gnome UI for this, make a spec out of it and implement it. - Alexander -- ubuntu-desktop mailing list ubuntu-desktop@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-desktop
Re: fontconfig vs. Gnome
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Rick Spencer wrote on 05/03/09 17:44: >... > Could you please tell us exactly how you think this should work? What > is your preference for how the user should configure the options? >... If we think the setting recommended by fontconfig is likely good, it should be the radio button selected by default in the Font preferences. For example, if fontconfig recommends subpixel smoothing, "Subpixel smoothing" should be selected by default in the Font preferences. To cater for the case of someone who changed the setting days or weeks ago and isn't sure what to change it back to, the string " (recommended)" could follow the label for whichever option is recommended by fontconfig. For example, if fontconfig recommends Best shapes for your display, that option could appear as "Best shapes (recommended)". If fontconfig allows other useful options not available in the Font preferences (such as a minimum size for anti-aliasing text, or never anti-aliasing kanji), then they should be made available individually in a future release. A take-it-or-leave-it "Automatic" checkbox would not be an obvious way of setting those options either. Cheers - -- Matthew Paul Thomas http://mpt.net.nz/ -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iEYEARECAAYFAkmwG4MACgkQ6PUxNfU6ecpraACfbec41osS8WSAgPEVEYEqPVZP Z3sAnjT9sSMS84gN/FEYQjdsYJV7WbMn =3FkI -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- ubuntu-desktop mailing list ubuntu-desktop@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-desktop
Re: fontconfig vs. Gnome
On Thursday 05 March 2009 09:29:42 Matthew Paul Thomas wrote: > Alexander Sack wrote on 05/03/09 13:39: > >... > > "Hi, just wanted to tell you that I upgraded to jaunty and now my > > fonts look great everywhere - on all my monitors, even in all apps I > > use. I am so happy that i don't need to fiddle with font configuration > > - which i previously found to be hidden in the Appearence preference > > dialog. BTW, I looked there now, but I will just leave the 'Automatic > > shapes" checkbox enabled as it seems to do the right thing for > > me. Thanks for your great work!" > >... > > The point is, there are *multiple* better ways of doing that than by > presenting two options that do exactly the same thing. > > Cheers > -- > Matthew Paul Thomas > http://mpt.net.nz/ mpt - Could you please tell us exactly how you think this should work? What is your preference for how the user should configure the options? Cheers, Rick -- ubuntu-desktop mailing list ubuntu-desktop@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-desktop
Re: fontconfig vs. Gnome
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Alexander Sack wrote on 05/03/09 13:39: >... > "Hi, just wanted to tell you that I upgraded to jaunty and now my > fonts look great everywhere - on all my monitors, even in all apps I > use. I am so happy that i don't need to fiddle with font configuration > - which i previously found to be hidden in the Appearence preference > dialog. BTW, I looked there now, but I will just leave the 'Automatic > shapes" checkbox enabled as it seems to do the right thing for > me. Thanks for your great work!" >... The point is, there are *multiple* better ways of doing that than by presenting two options that do exactly the same thing. Cheers - -- Matthew Paul Thomas http://mpt.net.nz/ -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iEYEARECAAYFAkmwDAEACgkQ6PUxNfU6ecrchwCgqLy9UuPQwRxV4of9ligJFy7F b3AAn2o0C3i0bySQ6olhyxinNupS9D7W =2iJW -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- ubuntu-desktop mailing list ubuntu-desktop@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-desktop
Re: fontconfig vs. Gnome
On Thu, Mar 05, 2009 at 03:51:03PM +0200, Ilmari Vacklin wrote: > 2009/3/5 Alexander Sack : > > "Hi, just wanted to tell you that I upgraded to jaunty and now my > > fonts look great everywhere - on all my monitors, even in all apps I > > use. I am so happy that i don't need to fiddle with font configuration > > - which i previously found to be hidden in the Appearence preference > > dialog. BTW, I looked there now, but I will just leave the 'Automatic > > shapes" checkbox enabled as it seems to do the right thing for > > me. Thanks for your great work!" > > I don't much trust this argument, since by default the fonts on Ubuntu > look horrid to me. I prefer disabling hinting altogether. > > Is this feature meant for administrators? The main driver for looking into this just now was to allow us to ship configs that automatically adapt to CRT and LCD. But there is more potential here; for instance, fontconfig allows us to ship special hinting tweaks considering the individual fonts, sizes and dpi used. Of course, admins/users can also tweak fontconfig rules manually if they want, but for jaunty the main driver for this change is to get better defaults. Of course, users can still go to the gnome fonts config and disable automatic to use whatever settings they used there before. > > In principle it is a good feature, but I would like to make the > fontconfig configuration more obvious: expose a graphical configurator > for it. > I agree that having a more complete configuration UI in gnome which also speaks fontconfig rules would be a worthwhile thing to have at some point, but thats not in the pipeline for jaunty. - Alexander -- ubuntu-desktop mailing list ubuntu-desktop@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-desktop
Re: fontconfig vs. Gnome
On Thu, Mar 05, 2009 at 03:05:14PM +, Scott James Remnant wrote: > On Wed, 2009-03-04 at 16:30 +, Matthew Paul Thomas wrote: > > "Excuse me, ma'am, I've set the font rendering to 'Best shapes', is that > > okay?" > > > > "I don't know, what are the other choices?" > > > > "'Monochrome', 'Best contrast', 'Subpixel smoothing', and 'Use system > > settings'." > > > > "'Use system settings'? What does that mean?" > > > > "For you, ma'am, it means 'Subpixel smoothing'." > > > > "But 'Subpixel smoothing' is one of the other options you just gave me, > > isn't it?" > > > YOU HAVE FIVE NEW UPDATES. lol, can we now go back to technical discussions on this list and leave the dramaturgy writing to all the great poets around the world ;)? Thanks! - Alexander -- ubuntu-desktop mailing list ubuntu-desktop@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-desktop
Re: fontconfig vs. Gnome
On Wed, 2009-03-04 at 16:30 +, Matthew Paul Thomas wrote: > "Excuse me, ma'am, I've set the font rendering to 'Best shapes', is that > okay?" > > "I don't know, what are the other choices?" > > "'Monochrome', 'Best contrast', 'Subpixel smoothing', and 'Use system > settings'." > > "'Use system settings'? What does that mean?" > > "For you, ma'am, it means 'Subpixel smoothing'." > > "But 'Subpixel smoothing' is one of the other options you just gave me, > isn't it?" > YOU HAVE FIVE NEW UPDATES. > "Yes, it is." > > > > "So ... why did you offer it with two different names? Were you trying > to trick me?" > > "Not at all. That's just the one we recommend for you, so we want to > make it twice as likely that you'll choose it." > > "Oh, for heaven's sake. You could have just *told* me that you recommend > it ... But wait a minute. If you recommend 'Subpixel smoothing' for me, > why on earth did you set it to 'Best shapes' to start with?" > > "I'm terribly sorry, ma'am, one of my other personalities was dominant > when I did that." > > > > "Your ... other ... personalities?" > > "Yes, ma'am, that was my 'Gnome' personality. Right now I'm in my > 'fontconfig' personality." > > "You have the personality of a gnome? ... No, wait, don't bother > answering that question. I'm leaving." Scott -- Scott James Remnant sc...@canonical.com signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part -- ubuntu-desktop mailing list ubuntu-desktop@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-desktop
Re: fontconfig vs. Gnome
2009/3/5 Alexander Sack : > "Hi, just wanted to tell you that I upgraded to jaunty and now my > fonts look great everywhere - on all my monitors, even in all apps I > use. I am so happy that i don't need to fiddle with font configuration > - which i previously found to be hidden in the Appearence preference > dialog. BTW, I looked there now, but I will just leave the 'Automatic > shapes" checkbox enabled as it seems to do the right thing for > me. Thanks for your great work!" I don't much trust this argument, since by default the fonts on Ubuntu look horrid to me. I prefer disabling hinting altogether. Is this feature meant for administrators? In principle it is a good feature, but I would like to make the fontconfig configuration more obvious: expose a graphical configurator for it. -- Ilmari Vacklin -- ubuntu-desktop mailing list ubuntu-desktop@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-desktop
Re: fontconfig vs. Gnome
On Wed, Mar 04, 2009 at 04:30:04PM +, Matthew Paul Thomas wrote: > -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- > Hash: SHA1 > > Rick Spencer wrote on 03/03/09 18:53: > >... > > === Arne Goetje (ArneGoetje) === > > * call with Alexander Sack about the fontconfig package: > > * the fontconfig package continues to set a basic desktop setting > > * the font packages should be updated to set fontconfig settings > > depending on the font and pixel size used. This affects hinting, hinting > > style and anti-aliasing settings > > * asac will try to dig through the gnome font settings code and add a > > checkbox "Use system settings", which will use fontconfig's settings > > instead of Gnome's > >... > > "Excuse me, ma'am, I've set the font rendering to 'Best shapes', is that > okay?" "Hi, just wanted to tell you that I upgraded to jaunty and now my fonts look great everywhere - on all my monitors, even in all apps I use. I am so happy that i don't need to fiddle with font configuration - which i previously found to be hidden in the Appearence preference dialog. BTW, I looked there now, but I will just leave the 'Automatic shapes" checkbox enabled as it seems to do the right thing for me. Thanks for your great work!" - Alexander -- ubuntu-desktop mailing list ubuntu-desktop@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-desktop
