Re: [Desktop12.04-Topic] Accessibility pollish.

[Luke Yelavich]

On Wed, Oct 05, 2011 at 05:07:08PM EST, Didier Roche wrote:
> Can we add to the list installation and setup process?
> I had met some people with disabilities during the RMLL in France
> (French FLOSS event) and tried with them ubiquity, + setup Orca +
> magnification and I clearly saw that it's was quite buggy and not
> really helpful when you don't know all the shortcuts. This kind of
> tracking would be helpful. I have a full detailed list of issues we
> got.

Great to hear, I'd be very interested in having a look at that list, as I am 
interested to see what you found.

Luke

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Re: [Desktop12.04-Topic] Working VNC (or no VNC)

[Bryce Harrington]

On Wed, Oct 05, 2011 at 08:59:43PM +0200, Sebastien Bacher wrote:
> Le mercredi 05 octobre 2011 à 11:17 -0700, Bryce Harrington a écrit :
> > It looks to me like it basically works, modulo maybe a bug or two.
> > So removing it seems unnecessary; just need to isolate and prioritize
> > those bugs. 
> 
> I'm not convinced about that, the bug has a count of 325 users having
> the issue (which is quite high compared to most desktop bugs we get) and
> it's a point that comes often on user forums as something being broken
> in Ubuntu, I would like to get extra datas ... maybe we should do a call
> for testing on it during the Oneiric rc testing?

Yeah, that bug (#353126) is open for over two years so re-testing is a
good idea.  I notice in particular many of the bugs listed as dupes are
in the 30-40 range, with only one filed in the natty timeframe.

The comments from 2011 are all either from people running older
Ubuntu's, or -fglrx, or don't specify.

I wish we could track and see what distro version those Affects Me were
reporting against, or when they were set.  It is possible most of those
were from Lucid/nvidia users (who gained the fix in a later release),
but we don't know.  Looking at the dupes and comments it seems like a
valid guess.

Anyway, a call for testing during oneiric rc seems a good suggestion.
But I think as a next action, I think I have all the hardware I need to
test it myself, so I'll try and do that today or tomorrow.  I would hate
to spin up a bunch of people to do testing if there really are obvious
breakages...

> Testing that feature regularly in the feature seems a good idea indeed

Is this something the QA could / would be willing to do?  Seb, do you
know if vino has a way to automatedly turn it on & config it ala dbus or
something?

Bryce

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Re: [Desktop12.04-Topic] Working VNC (or no VNC)

[Sebastien Bacher]

Le mercredi 05 octobre 2011 à 11:17 -0700, Bryce Harrington a écrit :
> It looks to me like it basically works, modulo maybe a bug or two.
> So removing it seems unnecessary; just need to isolate and prioritize
> those bugs. 

I'm not convinced about that, the bug has a count of 325 users having
the issue (which is quite high compared to most desktop bugs we get) and
it's a point that comes often on user forums as something being broken
in Ubuntu, I would like to get extra datas ... maybe we should do a call
for testing on it during the Oneiric rc testing?

Testing that feature regularly in the feature seems a good idea indeed

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Re: [Desktop12.04-Topic] Working VNC (or no VNC)

[Bryce Harrington]

On Wed, Oct 05, 2011 at 07:58:21AM -0400, Marc Deslauriers wrote:
> FYI, On Natty, I experienced the issue on my Intel laptop, but not on my
> Nvidia laptop. I've added the xdamage workaround before upgrading to
> Oneiric, so I don't know if it's fixed or not. I use the remote desktop
> functionality both when I'm not at home, and for tech support to my
> family, so if it gets removed, it would be nice to have an alternative
> take it's place...

It looks to me like it basically works, modulo maybe a bug or two.
So removing it seems unnecessary; just need to isolate and prioritize
those bugs.

Routine testing of the feature going forward wouldn't be a bad idea
either.

Bryce






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Re: [Desktop12.04-Topic] Improved Authentication

[Matthew Paul Thomas]

Robert Ancell wrote on 05/10/11 05:30:


It would be nice to improve the authentication mechanisms in Ubuntu
to be more user friendly and make it easier to enable modern
authentication schemes.  This will probably involve:
- Reviewing the messages/prompts in PAM for appropriateness
- Adding hints to PAM to allow GUIs to better display the prompts
(i.e. if a prompt is for a password, key number, if prompting for a
password change).
- Improving the Unity Greeter prompts to interpret the hints
- Improving PolicyKit to interpret the hints
- Making it easier to enable non-password authentication (e.g. LDAP,
two factor).


Two-factor authentication was discussed at UDS O, but not implemented.


Two-factor authentication was discussed at UDS M, but not implemented.


Two-factor authentication was discussed at UDS L, but not implemented.


LDAP authentication was proposed for discussion at *six UDSes* from 2005 
to 2010, and it was similarly discussed at three of them, but not 
implemented. 



I think we've run the experiment enough times now. Proposing either of 
those features for discussion at UDS is, apparently, not a productive 
thing to do. They are obviously useful and important features, but if 
either of them is ever to be implemented, they need to be planned some 
other way.


For example, instead of having a 55-minute fishbowl discussion, have an 
all-morning or evening design and hacking session to actually start on 
one of the features. If doing that during UDS would be too disruptive, 
do it a week earlier, or two weeks earlier.


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[Bug 550847] Re: Impossible to answer kernel error questions

[Martin Pitt]

** Project changed: apport => apport (Ubuntu)

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https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/550847

Title:
  Impossible to answer kernel error questions

To manage notifications about this bug go to:
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Re: [Desktop12.04-Topic] Desktop applications selection

[Jeff Fortin]

Regarding pitivi, I know that the gst folks won't be around because UDS
conflicts with the GStreamer Conference...

However, if you wish it, I'd be glad to attend the session through VoIP
(be it skype or empathy if it works these days) so that I may answer any
questions/concerns that may arise.

My goal would not be to nag/coerce you guys, only to be available as a
member of the project that can answer questions regarding its direction
and progress.

Let me know if you'd be interested.
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Re: [Desktop12.04-Topic] Multi-screen setups

[Didier Roche]

Le 05/10/2011 17:00, Dereck Wonnacott a écrit :
I use a laptop with an external monitor on a daily basis, I've 
upgraded from 11.04 to 11.10 in hope of finding better multi-screen 
support but was quite disappointed.


My laptop has an Nvidia card and I was not able to activate my 
external monitor with unity 3D. [BUG 864784]  HOWEVER, Unity 2D is 
surprisingly pleasant! I don't feel like I'm using second class 
software in the slightest. In fact, I rarely notice that I am using 
unity 2D. It's terrific, thank you guys!


I miss the window snap function on the shared edge of the screens. 
Snap only seems to work on the far edges of the workspace.


I would REALLY like display hot-plugging to turn on my external 
monitor when it's plugged in, but I've adjusted to using the 
nvidia-settings tool every time I boot my laptop.



As for the questions posed by Bryce, here's my two cents as a user:

> * Should Unity be mirrored across the monitors?
I'd be much happier if unity reflected the application use on that screen.

> * Should expo appear on all monitors, but only show windows for the
> monitor it's displayed on?
yes!

> * Should the launcher be displayed on all monitors, and if so, how
> should it be shown with a mouse?
Perhaps as the mouse approaches the top left corner of the screen, it 
could slide out much like how the the window snap works.


> * Should the dash, expo, spread view, etc, be displayed only on the
> monitor where the mouse pointer is, or a window has focused?
I think it makes the most sense to follow the mouse, rather than 
mirroring on both screens.


I know that design worked on that the past 3 weeks to look at the 
multimonitor cases in Unity and it's a target for Oneiric. So yeah, will 
likely to be discussed at UDS (you can also suggest your ideas on the 
ayatana mailing list (see http://unity.ubuntu.com/getinvolved/) to reach 
them.


Didier
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Re: [Desktop12.04-Topic] Multi-screen setups

[Dereck Wonnacott]

I use a laptop with an external monitor on a daily basis, I've upgraded from
11.04 to 11.10 in hope of finding better multi-screen support but was quite
disappointed.

My laptop has an Nvidia card and I was not able to activate my external
monitor with unity 3D. [BUG 864784]  HOWEVER, Unity 2D is surprisingly
pleasant! I don't feel like I'm using second class software in the
slightest. In fact, I rarely notice that I am using unity 2D. It's terrific,
thank you guys!

I miss the window snap function on the shared edge of the screens. Snap only
seems to work on the far edges of the workspace.

I would REALLY like display hot-plugging to turn on my external monitor when
it's plugged in, but I've adjusted to using the nvidia-settings tool every
time I boot my laptop.


As for the questions posed by Bryce, here's my two cents as a user:

> * Should Unity be mirrored across the monitors?
I'd be much happier if unity reflected the application use on that screen.

> * Should expo appear on all monitors, but only show windows for the
> monitor it's displayed on?
yes!

> * Should the launcher be displayed on all monitors, and if so, how
> should it be shown with a mouse?
Perhaps as the mouse approaches the top left corner of the screen, it could
slide out much like how the the window snap works.

> * Should the dash, expo, spread view, etc, be displayed only on the
> monitor where the mouse pointer is, or a window has focused?
I think it makes the most sense to follow the mouse, rather than mirroring
on both screens.


~Dereck

“The greater danger for most of us lies not in setting our aim too high and
falling short; but in setting our aim too low, and achieving our mark.” -
Michelangelo


On Tue, Oct 4, 2011 at 11:23 PM, Bryce Harrington wrote:

> On Wed, Oct 05, 2011 at 04:54:02AM +0200, Jo-Erlend Schinstad wrote:
> > One area that really needs extra attention, is multi-screen setups.
> > There are currently numerous issues. Some are just plain bugs, whereas
> > others need designed solutions. It is currently very inconsistent.
> >
> > For instance; the panel is displayed equally on both screens and
> > indicators are shown on all screens. Notifications, however, are only
> > shown on one screen.The dash, expo and spread views are only shown on
> > one screen, but the other screen is also dimmed. The launcher becomes
> > very difficult to use with a mouse on mutli-monitor setups since it's
> > so very far away. In many cases, it will also appear between two
> > monitors, which makes it difficult to show.
> >
> > A few questions:
> > * Should Unity be mirrored across the monitors?
> > * Should expo appear on all monitors, but only show windows for the
> > monitor it's displayed on?
> > * Should the launcher be displayed on all monitors, and if so, how
> > should it be shown with a mouse?
> > * Should the dash, expo, spread view, etc, be displayed only on the
> > monitor where the mouse pointer is, or a window has focused?
> >
> > I'm sure there are many other, valid questions.
>
> http://people.canonical.com/~bryce/ExternalMonitor/results.html
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[Destkop12.04-Topic] OneConf enhancement for LTS

[Didier Roche]

Hey,

having a lot of thoughts on what can be OneConf (even it the scope of 
the post is more than a cycle I guess), I gathered them on this blog posts:

http://blog.didrocks.fr/post/OneConf-in-Oneiric-and-the-way-forward%E2%80%A6

Cheers,
Didier Roche
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Re: [Desktop12.04-Topic] Desktop quality (bugs fixing)

[Pedro Villavicencio]

Hello,

El 05/10/11 08:25, Sebastien Bacher escribió:

Le mercredi 05 octobre 2011 à 12:59 +0200, Sebastien Bacher a écrit :

But where do we track i.e libc, plymouth, upstart bugs which have an
impact on the desktop?

One way would be to create a "desktop tracked" project on launchpad and
use "also affect" on all the bugs we think we should track...


That would be a good idea to help us with that. Probably the other way 
we can take is to use tags, but I personally don't like to use tags much 
since they are 'really' easy to change and I've seen a lot of users 
using those as the forums do or even blog posts. If i have to choose one 
approach I'd go for the 'also affects'.


Have a nice day,

pedro.

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Re: [Desktop12.04-Topic] Working VNC (or no VNC)

[Marc Deslauriers]

On Wed, 2011-10-05 at 11:13 +0200, Sebastien Bacher wrote:
> Le mardi 04 octobre 2011 à 14:00 -0700, Bryce Harrington a écrit :
> > Pitti had
> > mentioned a couple months ago that this is an -fglrx specific issue,
> > which well could me; if that can be confirmed, we could just have
> > Alberto add it to the AMD bug escalation list for 12.04.  What do you
> > think? 
> 
> In fact https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/353126 would have been a better
> bug to point, comments in both bugs list users having the issue on
> nvidia, ati and intel. There is not a lot of intel users comment so
> maybe those are another issue or bogus and it might be that the nvidia
> issue is fixed. In any case it would be nice to at least do a call for
> testing on Oneiric to see where we stand and if it's driver specific. If
> the issue is fglrx specific then escalating to amd seems a good idea
> indeed

FYI, On Natty, I experienced the issue on my Intel laptop, but not on my
Nvidia laptop. I've added the xdamage workaround before upgrading to
Oneiric, so I don't know if it's fixed or not. I use the remote desktop
functionality both when I'm not at home, and for tech support to my
family, so if it gets removed, it would be nice to have an alternative
take it's place...

Marc.



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Re: [Desktop12.04-Topic] Desktop performances

[Sebastien Bacher]

Le mardi 04 octobre 2011 à 17:13 -0700, Evan Broder a écrit :
> But at the very least, I
> would like for us to start tracking live session boot performance in
> the same way we already track post-install boot times, so that we
> remain aware of it as an issue. 

Hey,

Well in practice I think it doesn't make a real difference on the work
we do, we want to do less IOs and use less CPU during the boot and not
have unrequired delays, the numbers will show differently with different
optimization but the work to do should be rather similar for both
scenarios.

It's nice to have a first try good experience but I think most users are
not going to be bothered a lot but the installation media being a bit
slow to load, it's a one time thing, they probably care about the daily
boot speed of their computer though.

Cheers,
Sebastien Bacher


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Re: [Desktop12.04-Topic] Desktop quality (bugs fixing)

[Sebastien Bacher]

Le mercredi 05 octobre 2011 à 12:59 +0200, Sebastien Bacher a écrit :
> But where do we track i.e libc, plymouth, upstart bugs which have an
> impact on the desktop? 

One way would be to create a "desktop tracked" project on launchpad and
use "also affect" on all the bugs we think we should track...

Cheers,
Sebastien Bacher


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Re: [Desktop12.04-Topic] Desktop quality (bugs fixing)

[Sebastien Bacher]

Le mardi 04 octobre 2011 à 14:11 -0700, Bryce Harrington a écrit :
> On Tue, Oct 04, 2011 at 01:45:38PM +0200, Sebastien Bacher wrote:

> Will there be a focus for LTS->LTS upgrade bugs?  (More robust upgrades
> in general would be nice.)

I guess we should yes, we usually try to make sure lts to lts upgrades
work fine no reason to change that ;-)

> > The current list from Pedro and Qa are a nice but they only cover
> > selected set, how do we get visibility on i.e foundation issues, kernel
> > bugs, plymouth issues, etc that impact on what we are doing?
> 
> Can you elaborate on what info would be desired, or give some examples
> of how this visibility was impared on oneiric?

Well, for "desktop ui" issue (i.e GNOME,dx,etc) we used
http://status.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/ubuntu-desktop/oneiric.html for
example. The xorg team has a similar status tracking, I think.
But where do we track i.e libc, plymouth, upstart bugs which have an
impact on the desktop?

Cheers,
Sebastien Bacher



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Re: [Desktop12.04-Topic] Working VNC (or no VNC)

[Sebastien Bacher]

Le mardi 04 octobre 2011 à 14:00 -0700, Bryce Harrington a écrit :
> Pitti had
> mentioned a couple months ago that this is an -fglrx specific issue,
> which well could me; if that can be confirmed, we could just have
> Alberto add it to the AMD bug escalation list for 12.04.  What do you
> think? 

In fact https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/353126 would have been a better
bug to point, comments in both bugs list users having the issue on
nvidia, ati and intel. There is not a lot of intel users comment so
maybe those are another issue or bogus and it might be that the nvidia
issue is fixed. In any case it would be nice to at least do a call for
testing on Oneiric to see where we stand and if it's driver specific. If
the issue is fglrx specific then escalating to amd seems a good idea
indeed

Cheers,
Sebastien Bacher


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Re: [Desktop12.04-Topic] Video playback?

[Shane Fagan]

Hey Didier,

> People trying to use video have the same critics that when
> they don't look the audio support: slow to start, confusing interface and so
> on.

Well there is a bit of an interesting give and take here and it should
be talked about. The people who complain about a player being slow to
load are not the people that are really in the target any more its
people who want more features but dont care if it takes 2-20 seconds
to open.

Also along that line if it has a confusing interface that should also
be looked at and also wouldnt having 1 media player be helpful because
at least they would have a consistant interface for everything?

For every argument against banshee as the one and only player you
could argue a good few positives to switching in my opinion.

The biggest positive I see and maybe not everyone would view it this
way is just the library support, I know totem supports playlists but
it isnt really the same. In many ways using totem is really just using
nautilus in banshee you could have it pulling in all of your music and
video and bypass the file browser which is a huge win for users.

I would support having a simplified version maybe for when video is
being played but I really dont know if it would be that much of a
performance gain or a user interface gain. Id say that should be
discussed if we do end up going this way.

Anyway id hate to start a huge debate on shipping a simpler video
player vs a more complicated one but I think we should be thinking
about it.

Shane

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