Re: Please remove Software Sources from the menus, it's destructive.
> I'm aware of the differences of the package managers. It's just that I > don't need Synaptic, whereas Software Sources is one of my most executed > administrative applications (does not matter if it's technically part of > Synaptic or not, for the user it appears as a different app). If you don't install software, then why would you need to add any repositories at all? > Either I want to install an end-user application, this is what > "Add/Remove" does perfectly and IMHO more comfortable than Synaptic. I agree; Add/Remove is a beautiful application! You should use it whenever you can, and tell all new users to use it. However, the applications listed in Add/Remove is decided by app-install-data, and not the repositories you add, so Add/Remove is irrelevant in this context. If you add a repository with a new application, then you'd still have to use Synaptic to install it. Well, you can always open up a terminal and run some commands there if you like, but you probably shouldn't unless you know what you're doing. > Or I want to install libraries (e.g. for development purposes) or server > processes, then I'm already at command-line level. Instructions on Wiki > pages always use "apt-get install" rather than Synaptic. It shouldn't use "sudo apt-get install" at all. It's _really_ bad practice. Starting with Gutsy, we have support for apturl, which makes it easy to install software by simply clicking links, such as: Install Firefox If you're installing a server, then in many cases you'll want to use the task in any case. As an apt-get user, you'll probably not have discovered tasks, and will probably install packages manually instead, making the install a lot more complicated for you. It's very interesting to see that a three page guide for installing LAMP with apt-get, could be simplified to a single, short line using Synaptic. The guide shouldn't have used apt-get at all, but tasksel. But is there any reason why you'd want to use apt-get and tasksel instead of Synaptic? I think, in many cases, Synaptic does a better job than both of them. > I don't want to say that Synaptic is not a good tool. It's just that it > fails to fill in a use-case of my daily Ubuntu work. Perhaps you don't know it well enough? It seems to me, you're a living example of consequences of the problems I'm describing. Best regards, Jo-Erlend Schinstad -- ubuntu-desktop mailing list ubuntu-desktop@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-desktop
Re: Please remove Software Sources from the menus, it's destructive.
Jo-Erlend Schinstad wrote: >> Also, "Software Sources" has more use-cases, like enabling or disabling >> automatic security updates, selecting how often it should look for >> updates, adding authenticaton keys and allowing statistical information >> to be sent. This is all unlikely to need a package manager in the same >> usecase. >> >> Personally, I'd prefer if the Software Sources would stay in the menu. >> However, I would not mind for Synaptic to go away... > > I think you may have misunderstood. The Software Sources dialog is > part of Synaptic. The Software Sources menu item is just an extra way > of opening it. It saves you three mouse-clicks, granted, but it also > leads to misunderstandings like this. Synaptic and Add/Remove serves > two different purposes. You cannot use Add/Remove to install a single > package, like you do in Synaptic. You also cannot install a number of > services easily, like Mailserver, LAMP and SSH in one go, like you can > in Synaptic. Synaptic is not comparable to Add/Remove at all, > actually. It's competitors are the commandline tools aptitude, > apt-get, tasksel and editing /etc/sources.list(.d) manually. > > You're a good example of why Software Sources should be removed. You > had to learn how to use that too, but if you'd used the three extra > mouse clicks, you would have had a better change of discovering what a > wonderful application Synaptic is. We have to have a graphical tool > for package management, and Synaptic does a great job. I'm aware of the differences of the package managers. It's just that I don't need Synaptic, whereas Software Sources is one of my most executed administrative applications (does not matter if it's technically part of Synaptic or not, for the user it appears as a different app). Either I want to install an end-user application, this is what "Add/Remove" does perfectly and IMHO more comfortable than Synaptic. Or I want to install libraries (e.g. for development purposes) or server processes, then I'm already at command-line level. Instructions on Wiki pages always use "apt-get install" rather than Synaptic. I don't want to say that Synaptic is not a good tool. It's just that it fails to fill in a use-case of my daily Ubuntu work. -- ubuntu-desktop mailing list ubuntu-desktop@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-desktop
Re: Please remove Software Sources from the menus, it's destructive.
Op dinsdag 26-02-2008 om 14:41 uur [tijdzone +0100], schreef Jo-Erlend Schinstad: > I think you may have misunderstood. The Software Sources dialog is > part of Synaptic. Technically, it's *not* a part of Synaptic, but Synaptic uses it when it's available... -- Jan Claeys -- ubuntu-desktop mailing list ubuntu-desktop@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-desktop
Re: Please remove Software Sources from the menus, it's destructive.
On Tue, 2008-02-26 at 14:41 +0100, Jo-Erlend Schinstad wrote: > On 26/02/2008, Andreas Schildbach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Jo-Erlend Schinstad wrote: > > > There is also the graphical "Add/Remove Applications", which I think is > > much easier to use if you want to install an application. > > > > Also, "Software Sources" has more use-cases, like enabling or disabling > > automatic security updates, selecting how often it should look for > > updates, adding authenticaton keys and allowing statistical information > > to be sent. This is all unlikely to need a package manager in the same > > usecase. > > > > Personally, I'd prefer if the Software Sources would stay in the menu. > > However, I would not mind for Synaptic to go away... > > > > Regards, > > > > Andreas > > I think you may have misunderstood. The Software Sources dialog is > part of Synaptic. The Software Sources menu item is just an extra way > of opening it. It saves you three mouse-clicks, granted, but it also > leads to misunderstandings like this. Synaptic and Add/Remove serves > two different purposes. Don't forget that, although Add/Remove serves another purpose than Synaptic, apt-get, or Update Manager, all of these still use the same software sources. So only being able to call Software Sources from Synaptic leads to the actual misunderstanding that these settings only affect Synaptic, which is not true. So I think having Software Sources in the Administration is The Right Thing (tm). Regards, Denis -- ubuntu-desktop mailing list ubuntu-desktop@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-desktop
Re: Please remove Software Sources from the menus, it's destructive.
On 26/02/2008, Andreas Schildbach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Jo-Erlend Schinstad wrote: > There is also the graphical "Add/Remove Applications", which I think is > much easier to use if you want to install an application. > > Also, "Software Sources" has more use-cases, like enabling or disabling > automatic security updates, selecting how often it should look for > updates, adding authenticaton keys and allowing statistical information > to be sent. This is all unlikely to need a package manager in the same > usecase. > > Personally, I'd prefer if the Software Sources would stay in the menu. > However, I would not mind for Synaptic to go away... > > Regards, > > Andreas I think you may have misunderstood. The Software Sources dialog is part of Synaptic. The Software Sources menu item is just an extra way of opening it. It saves you three mouse-clicks, granted, but it also leads to misunderstandings like this. Synaptic and Add/Remove serves two different purposes. You cannot use Add/Remove to install a single package, like you do in Synaptic. You also cannot install a number of services easily, like Mailserver, LAMP and SSH in one go, like you can in Synaptic. Synaptic is not comparable to Add/Remove at all, actually. It's competitors are the commandline tools aptitude, apt-get, tasksel and editing /etc/sources.list(.d) manually. You're a good example of why Software Sources should be removed. You had to learn how to use that too, but if you'd used the three extra mouse clicks, you would have had a better change of discovering what a wonderful application Synaptic is. We have to have a graphical tool for package management, and Synaptic does a great job. With best regards, Jo-Erlend Schinstad -- ubuntu-desktop mailing list ubuntu-desktop@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-desktop
Re: Please remove Software Sources from the menus, it's destructive.
Jo-Erlend Schinstad wrote: > If you don't use Synaptic for package management, then why would you > use it to edit sources? If you only use the commandline tools, then > it's just as easy to do it manually, by adding or removing repos in > /etc/apt/sources.list.d/ There is also the graphical "Add/Remove Applications", which I think is much easier to use if you want to install an application. Also, "Software Sources" has more use-cases, like enabling or disabling automatic security updates, selecting how often it should look for updates, adding authenticaton keys and allowing statistical information to be sent. This is all unlikely to need a package manager in the same usecase. Personally, I'd prefer if the Software Sources would stay in the menu. However, I would not mind for Synaptic to go away... Regards, Andreas -- ubuntu-desktop mailing list ubuntu-desktop@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-desktop
Re: Please remove Software Sources from the menus, it's destructive.
On 25/02/2008, (``-_-´´) -- Fernando <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On Monday 25 February 2008 04:46:32 Tony Yarusso wrote: > > I appreciate having the option there, since I don't actually use Synaptic, > > but like having a handy way to edit the sources list. Going through > > Synaptic just takes more clicks... > > > I am of the same opinion. > There should be an easy and quick way to edit the sources. There is a quick and easy way to edit the sources.. Just open Synaptic and access Software Sources from there. It's the same dialog. Editing sources isn't something you do every day, so speed isn't an issue. This is a feature of Synaptic, so why shouldn't you open Synaptic to access it? If you don't use Synaptic for package management, then why would you use it to edit sources? If you only use the commandline tools, then it's just as easy to do it manually, by adding or removing repos in /etc/apt/sources.list.d/ -- ubuntu-desktop mailing list ubuntu-desktop@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-desktop
Re: Please remove Software Sources from the menus, it's destructive.
On Monday 25 February 2008 04:46:32 Tony Yarusso wrote: > I appreciate having the option there, since I don't actually use Synaptic, > but like having a handy way to edit the sources list. Going through > Synaptic just takes more clicks... I am of the same opinion. There should be an easy and quick way to edit the sources. -- BUGabundo :o) (``-_-´´) http://Ubuntu.BUGabundo.net Linux user #443786GPG key 1024D/A1784EBB My new micro-blog @ http://BUGabundo.net ps. My emails tend to sound authority and aggressive. I'm sorry in advance. I'll try to be more assertive as time goes by... signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. -- ubuntu-desktop mailing list ubuntu-desktop@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-desktop
Re: Please remove Software Sources from the menus, it's destructive.
On Sun, Feb 24, 2008 at 3:57 PM, Karel Prikkebeen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > Op zaterdag 23-02-2008 om 10:40 uur [tijdzone +0100], schreef Jo-Erlend > Schinstad: > > We now have four ways of adding a repository; add it as a line > in/etc/apt/sources.list, as a file in /etc/apt/sources.list.d, usingSoftware > Sources in the System > Administration menu, or in Synaptic.This only serves > to confuse users. It is redundant and should beavoided. > There are also negative consequences of having it in the menus. Byeliminating > the need to open Synaptic, we're also eliminating the needto get to know > Synaptic. That's a shame, because it's a really goodpackage management > application. Synaptic has the features of Taskselbuilt into it, for instance, > and many people don't know that becausethey don't know Synaptic. Because > people don't know it very well, theyrecommend that people open a terminal and > run sudo tasksel for tasksand sudo apt-get install for packages. This in turn > leads to guidesthat recommend copy-paste of sudo commands. This may lead to > securityissues for less advanced users who just want to install some > software.They're being conditioned to use sudo carelessly, and to copy > commandsthey don't understand and run them as root. This is a disease which > weshould fight with all possible means. > Removing the Software Sources menu item, thereby forcing users to > openSynaptic instead, is only a beginning. All wiki pages and helpdocuments > should also refer to Synaptic as the primary way ofinstalling tasks and > packages, and Add/Remove for desktopapplications. Synaptic also lacks the > possibility to enter a number ofpackages at the same time and install them, > like you can do withapt-get and aptitude. I've filed a bug on that on > launchpad:https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/synaptic/+bug/194666 > > Best regards, > Jo-Erlend Schinstad > > > I agree with you. I should also like a standard button for Synaptic next > to the help button, so that when you hoover over it with the mouse it gives > a hint about it's purpose. > > -- > ubuntu-desktop mailing list > ubuntu-desktop@lists.ubuntu.com > https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-desktop > > I appreciate having the option there, since I don't actually use Synaptic, but like having a handy way to edit the sources list. Going through Synaptic just takes more clicks... -- Tony Yarusso http://tonyyarusso.com/ -- ubuntu-desktop mailing list ubuntu-desktop@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-desktop
Re: Please remove Software Sources from the menus, it's destructive.
Op zaterdag 23-02-2008 om 10:40 uur [tijdzone +0100], schreef Jo-Erlend Schinstad: > We now have four ways of adding a repository; add it as a line in > /etc/apt/sources.list, as a file in /etc/apt/sources.list.d, using > Software Sources in the System > Administration menu, or in Synaptic. > This only serves to confuse users. It is redundant and should be > avoided. > > There are also negative consequences of having it in the menus. By > eliminating the need to open Synaptic, we're also eliminating the need > to get to know Synaptic. That's a shame, because it's a really good > package management application. Synaptic has the features of Tasksel > built into it, for instance, and many people don't know that because > they don't know Synaptic. Because people don't know it very well, they > recommend that people open a terminal and run sudo tasksel for tasks > and sudo apt-get install for packages. This in turn leads to guides > that recommend copy-paste of sudo commands. This may lead to security > issues for less advanced users who just want to install some software. > They're being conditioned to use sudo carelessly, and to copy commands > they don't understand and run them as root. This is a disease which we > should fight with all possible means. > > Removing the Software Sources menu item, thereby forcing users to open > Synaptic instead, is only a beginning. All wiki pages and help > documents should also refer to Synaptic as the primary way of > installing tasks and packages, and Add/Remove for desktop > applications. Synaptic also lacks the possibility to enter a number of > packages at the same time and install them, like you can do with > apt-get and aptitude. I've filed a bug on that on launchpad: > https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/synaptic/+bug/194666 > > > Best regards, > > Jo-Erlend Schinstad > I agree with you. I should also like a standard button for Synaptic next to the help button, so that when you hoover over it with the mouse it gives a hint about it's purpose. -- ubuntu-desktop mailing list ubuntu-desktop@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-desktop
Please remove Software Sources from the menus, it's destructive.
We now have four ways of adding a repository; add it as a line in /etc/apt/sources.list, as a file in /etc/apt/sources.list.d, using Software Sources in the System > Administration menu, or in Synaptic. This only serves to confuse users. It is redundant and should be avoided. There are also negative consequences of having it in the menus. By eliminating the need to open Synaptic, we're also eliminating the need to get to know Synaptic. That's a shame, because it's a really good package management application. Synaptic has the features of Tasksel built into it, for instance, and many people don't know that because they don't know Synaptic. Because people don't know it very well, they recommend that people open a terminal and run sudo tasksel for tasks and sudo apt-get install for packages. This in turn leads to guides that recommend copy-paste of sudo commands. This may lead to security issues for less advanced users who just want to install some software. They're being conditioned to use sudo carelessly, and to copy commands they don't understand and run them as root. This is a disease which we should fight with all possible means. Removing the Software Sources menu item, thereby forcing users to open Synaptic instead, is only a beginning. All wiki pages and help documents should also refer to Synaptic as the primary way of installing tasks and packages, and Add/Remove for desktop applications. Synaptic also lacks the possibility to enter a number of packages at the same time and install them, like you can do with apt-get and aptitude. I've filed a bug on that on launchpad: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/synaptic/+bug/194666 Best regards, Jo-Erlend Schinstad -- ubuntu-desktop mailing list ubuntu-desktop@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-desktop
