Re: Announcement: One Click Installer
Greg K Nicholson napisał(a): > Krzysztof Lichota: >> And I do not think such amount of information should be put in URLs, it >> is just too big. URLs should not hold data. > > I imagine that the major Linux vendors would each host a library server, > SourceForge might have one too, as would some or all of the servers that > currently provide mirrors for open source projects' downloads. Remember, > we're only dealing with short snippets of metadata, not the installers > themselves, so this isn't a universal repository of all software — just > a universal repository of all software installation metadata (ideally). So you are taking away power from users and centralizing it. It is exactly the opposite of what was the key of success of WWW (giving power to users). > I'm visualising this library as a vast table with program versions down > the left, and distro/version/etc combinations across the top. At the > intersections are instructions like: > > http://bar.example.com";>foo > > Sometimes there are several instructions: > > http://bar.example.com";>foo > http://baz.example.org/gpgkey Please see the specification of One Click Installer file format (http://one-click-installer.googlecode.com/svn/trunk/one-click-inst/README) and you will see exactly that. And the "library of servers" becomes just a loose bunch of web servers holding One Click Installer installation files. Just One Click Installer gives everyone a possibility to create one, not only distributions and big players. Krzysztof Lichota signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Announcement: One Click Installer
On Mon, Aug 06, 2007 at 07:01:35PM +0200, Krzysztof Lichota wrote: > I would like to share with you the project I have been working for some > time now which I think could help solving bug #1. > > The problem: > - Users coming from Windows (and in general beginners) want installation > of applications to be as easy as possible. Download, Next, Next, Done > kind of experience. > - If you start talking about command line and adding keys, repositories, > etc. you have lost them. They will not understand and they will not > _want_ to dig into technical details. > - There is plenty of packaging formats used on Linux and average users > do not want to know the differences between them, they just want to > install application. > > Package installation applications (Synaptic, Adept) and apt repositories > do not solve the problem for the following reasons: > 1. Repositories must be added manually and this exceeds skills of > average Windows user. Keys must be added also and repositories updated. > Too many steps, too difficult. > 2. Users are not used to going to package management application to > install application. They want to click link on application web page, > download, run, Next, Next, etc. > 3. Package management applications are too bloated with features and > contain thousands of applications. Even with categories it is hard to > find application that the user needs (think "I want a movie player"), > especially if they do not know name and are presented with 10 > applications which they do not know and all do the same or differ in > technical details (e.g. uses Xine or uses GStreamer). Users want to have > some context - other users comments, grades, etc. > 4. Application descriptions are in English (I know about DDTP, but AFAIK > it does not work). Many users do not know English and they want > information about applications in their language, on native portals with > applications (like localized Tucows). > 5. User must know that he is using APT with DEB packages. As there are > separate APT repositories for each distribution version and user must > also know what distribution he is using which version, choose > appropriate repository, etc. > 6. If user is using some other distribution than Debian-based he is even > more in pain, he has to know what package format to use (DEB, RPM, TGZ, > Ebuild, ...), what channel (APT, yum, Yast, ZMD, etc.), what distro, > which version. > > Now compare it to installation on Windows - user goes to Google, types > "movie player download" or browses some application catalog like Tucows, > selects one with best reviews, downloads installer (in most cases he has > to choose between installer for Windows 98/ME and installer for Windows > 2000/XP), 3 clicks and he is done. > > So, here is my shot at solving this problem - One Click Installer > (http://code.google.com/p/one-click-installer/). > > The idea is similar to this implemented in > https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ThirdPartyApt, but with broader scope > (supporting all distributions, not only Debian-based) and more features. Thanks for sharing your ideas with us in detail. This is an idea which has been on many of our minds for some time, but no one had gotten around to prototyping it yet. One concern that I have is that I feel it is important to ensure that applications and their dependencies are installed from the Ubuntu repositories wherever possible: if the application is available from Ubuntu, it should be installed from there, even if the user found it via a third-party website. This ensures that it will receive official updates, and upgrade properly to the next release of Ubuntu, which is one of the great strengths of package management. Of course, there will be applications which cannot be added to Ubuntu, and so third-party repositories are necessary, but they should be avoided where they are redundant, as they complicate maintenance and upgrades. Does your design address this? -- - mdz -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Suggestion: Actively support reverse engineering projects
Hi, I have a suggestion about how to actively support reverse engineering projects. There are some FOSS drivers in the works that is not yet suitable for Ubuntu. However helping them along the way might get us there sooner. My suggestion is a program that would match the hardware a user have with the hardware a reverse engineering project needs information about. If it is a match the program would ask the user if he/she wants to help the project. Preferably it should be simple things like taking an automatic dump of a piece of hardware or a quick test to see if a driver works. One example would be to help Nouveau[1] with cards that need dumping. There is currently 44 up to date dumps, 105 old dumps and 104 cards still missing. The program could have a great impact here. [1] http://nouveau.freedesktop.org/wiki/ Another example would be to do a quick test to see if some wifi or modem driver could retreive something over the net. For instance "Can you see the picture below?". Answering yes could send some information to the project and answering no could also send some info to the project if the user has some other means of connectivity. There are some alternatives of when the program should be run: - Automatically for all new versions of Ubuntu - Automatically for all betas of Ubuntu - When the user actively wants to run it. It would of course be important to communicate with the reverse engineering teams to make sure they get information they want. My hope is for someone to pick up this idea and make something out of it. I think 'revenge' would make for a cute name for a reverse engineering project, if it's not already taken. I realize this might not be a new idea, it might already be implemented or it might be too much for the user to deal with. Sincerely Magnus -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Announcement: One Click Installer
I haveb't look at the code in depth, but have you thought about using
the apt python bindings instead of command line calls ("apt-get install
--assume-yes" is a bad idea)? aptsources even provides an abstraction of
the sources.list.
Cheers,
Sebastian
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Re: Announcement: One Click Installer
Am Dienstag, den 07.08.2007, 01:04 +0200 schrieb Krzysztof Lichota: > Chris Wagner napisał(a): > > Every time someone comes up with a new, more-intuitive way to install > > software on Linux, there seems to be more negative comments about it > > than positive. I recall similar comments when Gdebi was proposed, but > > it seems to have gone over okay. > > > > I only see one major flaw in Krzysztof's model: security. (Am I wrong? > > Are there other serious problems?) Unfortunately, that's arguably the > > most important issue. Rather than shrug off this solution, though, why > > not come up with a mechanism for making it (at least somewhat) secure? > > I completely agree the security is important. even a signed software can do a lot of harm to your system. installing software from the internet blindly is perhaps the cause for most unstable windows systems. if a package would be signed by the ubuntu developers it should be part of the distribution. if you require to only install signed packages only you would at least make sure that the package creator has got some basic skills. furthermore it could be nice to make use of the gnupg web of trust here. you could calculate a trust level from the number and kind of signatures. what are your plans about an translation infrastructure for the oci files? if you don't find any translators you won't get any translations - the current problem of ddtp. you mentioned tucows and a central wiki page many times. any plans on this? the idea was discussed several times in the past, but it was never implemented in the official ubuntu frame work. perhaps an error, since now we seem to get a lot of separated sites with no central quality assurance. cheers, sebastian -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Announcement: One Click Installer
Am 07.08.2007 um 16:30 schrieb Sebastian Heinlein: > installing software from the internet blindly is perhaps the cause > for most > unstable windows systems. I doubt an OS installation cares where you've got your applications from. The worst software I have experience with are drivers and free "helper" applications coming on a CD bundled with hardware. The biggest source of instability is the fact you have to install software at all. Libraries possibly overriding already existing ones. Variables set or unset to match what the individual developer thinks is right. Additional files spread all over the system, because Linux expects them in a specific place. Configuration files edited without a chance to revert them to a different mix of installed packages. If you want more stability along with more ease for the user, you should work towards self-sufficient application packages. Not necessarily a single file, but a directory filled with everything some piece of software needs. Installation: unpack an archive (without admin rights, whereever it is convenient for you). Deinstallation: move the archive's contents (a single file or directory) to the trash. Changes after a typical installation/run/deinstallation cycle: Zero. While this requires some tweaks to the base system (e.g. the linker should look into the bundle before /usr/lib) and isn't good for every type of software, it is very user friendly and very doable. Classic Mac OS did it. Mac OS X does it. GNUstep does it. Markus - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Dipl. Ing. Markus Hitter http://www.jump-ing.de/ -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Announcement: One Click Installer
Matt Zimmerman napisał(a): > Thanks for sharing your ideas with us in detail. This is an idea which has > been on many of our minds for some time, but no one had gotten around to > prototyping it yet. > > One concern that I have is that I feel it is important to ensure that > applications and their dependencies are installed from the Ubuntu > repositories wherever possible: if the application is available from Ubuntu, > it should be installed from there, even if the user found it via a > third-party website. This ensures that it will receive official updates, > and upgrade properly to the next release of Ubuntu, which is one of the > great strengths of package management. > > Of course, there will be applications which cannot be added to Ubuntu, and > so third-party repositories are necessary, but they should be avoided where > they are redundant, as they complicate maintenance and upgrades. > > Does your design address this? Creator of One Click Installer installation file decides which repository will be used. If the application is available in Ubuntu repository I do not see the point why he would prefer to point to some other repository. Additionally, Ubuntu could make such need void by providing prepackaged, trusted installation files - only installation files signed using Ubuntu key are trusted by default by One Click Installer. Files signed with untrusted key are not installed and files without signature spawn warning and default to aborting installation. I have described security model in this e-mail: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel-discuss/2007-August/001385.html So Ubuntu could just provide signed files for applications hosted in its repository, signed with its key for use by everyone else. Files would be hosted on Ubuntu server and everyone else (forum support people, bloggers, journalists, ...) could just provide links to these files instead of creating them on their own. To give it kick start this could be even automated to create installation files based on descriptions from .deb files themselves. Then they could be polished to provide better user experience (provide optional documentation installation, language packs, etc.). Krzysztof Lichota signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Suggestion: Actively support reverse engineering projects
If this could be done with absolutely no user intervention (i.e. if the only thing missing is the right hardware), perhaps we could come up with something like [EMAIL PROTECTED] and [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or, simpler, a program that the user starts manually and just leaves running (while not using the computer, so as to avoid dataloss in the event of a cock-up) — the program sets about attacking the hardware as it sees fit and stops when the user tells it to (or when it crashes the system). -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Announcement: One Click Installer
Sebastian Heinlein napisał(a):
> I haveb't look at the code in depth, but have you thought about using
> the apt python bindings instead of command line calls ("apt-get install
> --assume-yes" is a bad idea)? aptsources even provides an abstraction of
> the sources.list.
I did not know about apt bindings and I had command line interface from
my other project. I have tried using Adept Batch, but it is not very
convenient nor portable.
So if someone can improve that code, you are welcome to join the project
:) The code is open and definitely there are many ways to improve it :)
Krzysztof Lichota
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Re: Announcement: One Click Installer
On Tue, Aug 07, 2007 at 08:36:23PM +0200, Krzysztof Lichota wrote: > Creator of One Click Installer installation file decides which > repository will be used. If the application is available in Ubuntu > repository I do not see the point why he would prefer to point to some > other repository. > > Additionally, Ubuntu could make such need void by providing prepackaged, > trusted installation files - only installation files signed using Ubuntu > key are trusted by default by One Click Installer. Files signed with > untrusted key are not installed and files without signature spawn > warning and default to aborting installation. I have described security > model in this e-mail: > https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel-discuss/2007-August/001385.html > > So Ubuntu could just provide signed files for applications hosted in its > repository, signed with its key for use by everyone else. Files would be > hosted on Ubuntu server and everyone else (forum support people, > bloggers, journalists, ...) could just provide links to these files > instead of creating them on their own. There is no need for Ubuntu to provide additional metadata for the thousands of programs available in the repositories. Instead, the metadata file need only provide the name of the package, and the local package manager can install it from the official repository. This provides the experience of locating the software on the web while retaining the security and maintenance characteristics of the distribution model. -- - mdz -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Announcement: One Click Installer
Sebastian Heinlein napisał(a): > even a signed software can do a lot of harm to your system. installing > software from the internet blindly is perhaps the cause for most > unstable windows systems. Any software can harm your system when used inappropriately. But it is not the reason to forbid people to use it. If someone is security conscious, he will take the risk into account. If he is not aware of it, we can make him at least aware. Then the decision is in the hands of user. > if you require to only install signed packages only you would at least > make sure that the package creator has got some basic skills. > furthermore it could be nice to make use of the gnupg web of trust here. > you could calculate a trust level from the number and kind of > signatures. This is interesting proposal. But the problem is how to measure such trust level? By requiring web of trust to reach one of Ubuntu developers? > what are your plans about an translation infrastructure for the oci > files? if you don't find any translators you won't get any translations > - the current problem of ddtp. The basic principle is that anyone can create installation files in decentralized manners. So it would be up to local Ubuntu teams to provide installation files with translated contents. Any central repository (based on Rosetta or DDTP) should only help by providing some coordination place. > you mentioned tucows and a central wiki page many times. any plans on > this? the idea was discussed several times in the past, but it was never > implemented in the official ubuntu frame work. perhaps an error, since > now we seem to get a lot of separated sites with no central quality > assurance. I have not mentioned central wiki page :) My vision is completely different - there should be many places where installation links can be provided. Some of them more formal and trusted (for example packages.ubuntu.com, Ubuntu pages, etc.), some supported by community (getdeb.net, etc.), some completely freelance - blogs, forums, wikis, etc. One Click Installer allows all these places to host installation links. It is up to maintainers of packages.ubuntu.com, getdeb.net or any other site to use it. And distributions such as Ubuntu can help creating this ecosystem by providing signed installation files for everyone to link to. Of course I would really like to see central Ubuntu software repository with trusted, signed installation files, extensive descriptions, ranks, comments, etc. But it should not be the only place. Krzysztof Lichota signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Announcement: One Click Installer
Jerome Haltom napisał(a): > I wanted to point you to my existing effort with regards to this: > > https://wiki.ubuntu.com/GAptI > > Someday I will in fact finish this. Please take a look at it though. Yes, I have seen it long time ago. But it supports only APT. One Click Installer strives to be the solution for all Linux (and non-Linux) distributions. Krzysztof Lichota signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Announcement: One Click Installer
Jerome Haltom napisał(a): > Now that I actually read this, I don't see any actual difference between > it and GAptI. Is there one? > > Other than the file being some weird XMLish thing. With hard coded > command line options in it. Command line option was added as hack specifically to support installing Skype deb from their repository. I couldn't believe it but they have put repository with debs without signing it! It will go away as soon as I find better solution. > I choose the format I choose for GAptI > because it was keeping in-line with the traditional Name: Value pair > format used by both dpkg and apt itself. Not whole worlds is using apt. XML is more flexible when it comes to supporting unexpected things. Krzysztof Lichota signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Announcement: One Click Installer
So this works for Yum too? On Tue, 2007-08-07 at 21:34 +0200, Krzysztof Lichota wrote: > Jerome Haltom napisał(a): > > Now that I actually read this, I don't see any actual difference between > > it and GAptI. Is there one? > > > > Other than the file being some weird XMLish thing. With hard coded > > command line options in it. > > Command line option was added as hack specifically to support installing > Skype deb from their repository. I couldn't believe it but they have put > repository with debs without signing it! > It will go away as soon as I find better solution. > > > I choose the format I choose for GAptI > > because it was keeping in-line with the traditional Name: Value pair > > format used by both dpkg and apt itself. > > Not whole worlds is using apt. XML is more flexible when it comes to > supporting unexpected things. > > Krzysztof Lichota > -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Announcement: One Click Installer
Krzysztof Lichota: > Creator of One Click Installer installation file decides which > repository will be used. If the application is available in Ubuntu > repository I do not see the point why he would prefer to point to some > other repository. Maybe the OCI file's creator uses a different distro. This is supposed to be distro-neutral, right? -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Announcement: One Click Installer
Matt Zimmerman: > Instead, the metadata file need > only provide the name of the package, and the local package manager can > install it from the official repository. How would this be better than (or different from) the apt/install protocol? -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Announcement: One Click Installer
Matt Zimmerman napisał(a): >> So Ubuntu could just provide signed files for applications hosted in its >> repository, signed with its key for use by everyone else. Files would be >> hosted on Ubuntu server and everyone else (forum support people, >> bloggers, journalists, ...) could just provide links to these files >> instead of creating them on their own. > > There is no need for Ubuntu to provide additional metadata for the thousands > of programs available in the repositories. Instead, the metadata file need > only provide the name of the package, and the local package manager can > install it from the official repository. > > This provides the experience of locating the software on the web while > retaining the security and maintenance characteristics of the distribution > model. This is the approach of apt:// protocol. It is not extensible and it will not make Ubuntu competitive to rich software ecosystem of Windows. There _must_ be the way for third party software creators to publish their software easily. Otherwise they will not be interested in creating their apps for Linux. And if you want to provide higher security, you can turn off installing unsigned files in One Click Installer. This way inexperienced users will not be able to install untrusted software easily. But of course advanced users will be able to work around it. Krzysztof Lichota signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Announcement: One Click Installer
Jerome Haltom napisał(a): > So this works for Yum too? Not yet, but I hope it will. And Yast, ebuild and TGZ as well. I can create versions for most popular packaging/distribution systems, but it is up to distribution developers to integrate it or add support for their unique packaging system. Krzysztof Lichota signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Announcement: One Click Installer
On Tuesday 07 August 2007 15:57, Krzysztof Lichota wrote: > This is the approach of apt:// protocol. It is not extensible and it > will not make Ubuntu competitive to rich software ecosystem of Windows. > There _must_ be the way for third party software creators to publish > their software easily. Otherwise they will not be interested in creating > their apps for Linux. I spend a lot of time packaging software for the Debian packaging system. It sounds to me like you believe this is a waste of my time because a generally extensible packaging system that will result in reliable installations across diverse architectures and hardware either exists or it trivial to create. Is that right? Scott K -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Announcement: One Click Installer
Greg K Nicholson napisał(a): > Krzysztof Lichota: >> Creator of One Click Installer installation file decides which >> repository will be used. If the application is available in Ubuntu >> repository I do not see the point why he would prefer to point to some >> other repository. > > Maybe the OCI file's creator uses a different distro. This is supposed > to be distro-neutral, right? Right. But if the application is in an official, supported repository for given distro, it is better for the author to point to such repository as its quality should be higher than some other, third party. Unless the third party provides some feature which is not available in official version, but well, it is a tradeoff here. It is up to installation file author to balance what he thinks is better. Krzysztof Lichota signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Announcement: One Click Installer
Scott Kitterman napisał(a): > On Tuesday 07 August 2007 15:57, Krzysztof Lichota wrote: > >> This is the approach of apt:// protocol. It is not extensible and it >> will not make Ubuntu competitive to rich software ecosystem of Windows. >> There _must_ be the way for third party software creators to publish >> their software easily. Otherwise they will not be interested in creating >> their apps for Linux. > > I spend a lot of time packaging software for the Debian packaging system. It > sounds to me like you believe this is a waste of my time because a generally > extensible packaging system that will result in reliable installations across > diverse architectures and hardware either exists or it trivial to create. > > Is that right? No, you got completely the wrong idea. Deb packages built for specific distro are useful as they provide best integration with underlying distribution. And One Click Installer does not at all address the issue of common packaging format or whether DEB is better than RPM. It is just a convenient way for users to have their favourite app installed without knowing what their distro is, what their packaging system is, how to add repository, how to update it, how to add keys, etc. Krzysztof Lichota signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Announcement: One Click Installer
On Tuesday 07 August 2007 16:11, Krzysztof Lichota wrote: > Scott Kitterman napisał(a): > > On Tuesday 07 August 2007 15:57, Krzysztof Lichota wrote: > >> This is the approach of apt:// protocol. It is not extensible and it > >> will not make Ubuntu competitive to rich software ecosystem of Windows. > >> There _must_ be the way for third party software creators to publish > >> their software easily. Otherwise they will not be interested in creating > >> their apps for Linux. > > > > I spend a lot of time packaging software for the Debian packaging system. > > It sounds to me like you believe this is a waste of my time because a > > generally extensible packaging system that will result in reliable > > installations across diverse architectures and hardware either exists or > > it trivial to create. > > > > Is that right? > > No, you got completely the wrong idea. > Deb packages built for specific distro are useful as they provide best > integration with underlying distribution. And One Click Installer does > not at all address the issue of common packaging format or whether DEB > is better than RPM. It is just a convenient way for users to have their > favourite app installed without knowing what their distro is, what their > packaging system is, how to add repository, how to update it, how to add > keys, etc. > OK, so for a Debian system, where do the.debs come from that One Click is needed for? This is the part that keeps confusing me. You seem to think if installing were just easier, people would install more stuff (probably true), but I think the real limiting factor is getting the stuff properly packaged. Scott K -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Announcement: One Click Installer
Scott Kitterman napisał(a): > OK, so for a Debian system, where do the.debs come from that One Click is > needed for? The debs are already in repositories. It is about giving users easy access to them. > This is the part that keeps confusing me. You seem to think if installing > were just easier, people would install more stuff (probably true), but I > think the real limiting factor is getting the stuff properly packaged. Try reading forum posts or the Scribus page I have mentioned (http://www.scribus.net/index.php?name=Sections&req=viewarticle&artid=4&page=1). They are full of descriptions how to add repository, how to add key, etc. Repeated all over again. And in many cases they go to most common denominator (modifying /etc/apt/sources.list and using apt-key in console), because if they describe one application (like Synaptic), then user might be using different (like Adept). Now imagine you are user who wants to install application. And he must take so many difficult steps to achieve simple goal - installing application. Or you are an application author which can either depend on his users to know how to add repository, or he can create description how to do it once again. This is the problem I am trying to solve. Krzysztof Lichota signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Announcement: One Click Installer
The .debs are already in which repository? Who built them? If Ubuntu's repository, well, what have you solved then? They were already there. On Wed, 2007-08-08 at 00:23 +0200, Krzysztof Lichota wrote: > Scott Kitterman napisał(a): > > OK, so for a Debian system, where do the.debs come from that One Click is > > needed for? > > The debs are already in repositories. It is about giving users easy > access to them. > > > This is the part that keeps confusing me. You seem to think if installing > > were just easier, people would install more stuff (probably true), but I > > think the real limiting factor is getting the stuff properly packaged. > > Try reading forum posts or the Scribus page I have mentioned > (http://www.scribus.net/index.php?name=Sections&req=viewarticle&artid=4&page=1). > They are full of descriptions how to add repository, how to add key, > etc. Repeated all over again. And in many cases they go to most common > denominator (modifying /etc/apt/sources.list and using apt-key in > console), because if they describe one application (like Synaptic), then > user might be using different (like Adept). > > Now imagine you are user who wants to install application. And he must > take so many difficult steps to achieve simple goal - installing > application. > > Or you are an application author which can either depend on his users to > know how to add repository, or he can create description how to do it > once again. > > This is the problem I am trying to solve. > > Krzysztof Lichota > -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Announcement: One Click Installer
On Tuesday 07 August 2007 18:23, Krzysztof Lichota wrote: > Scott Kitterman napisał(a): > > OK, so for a Debian system, where do the.debs come from that One Click is > > needed for? > > The debs are already in repositories. It is about giving users easy > access to them. > > > This is the part that keeps confusing me. You seem to think if > > installing were just easier, people would install more stuff (probably > > true), but I think the real limiting factor is getting the stuff properly > > packaged. > > Try reading forum posts or the Scribus page I have mentioned > (http://www.scribus.net/index.php?name=Sections&req=viewarticle&artid=4&pag >e=1). They are full of descriptions how to add repository, how to add key, > etc. Repeated all over again. And in many cases they go to most common > denominator (modifying /etc/apt/sources.list and using apt-key in > console), because if they describe one application (like Synaptic), then > user might be using different (like Adept). > > Now imagine you are user who wants to install application. And he must > take so many difficult steps to achieve simple goal - installing > application. > > Or you are an application author which can either depend on his users to > know how to add repository, or he can create description how to do it > once again. > > This is the problem I am trying to solve. OK. That's a different problem then it sounded to me like you were trying to solve. That one is, I think, rather more reasonable. When you talk to me here about all the wonderful RPMs out there, it sounds to me like you're trying to re-invent alien, not make it easier to find and install packages for the distribution's packaging system. I'll note that another option is for said application author to work with distributions to get their application into the official/tested repository. I'll also note that in most cases I've run across when someone brings their package to Ubuntu, it is not initially up to Ubuntu packaging quality standards. In my opinion, moving outside of the distribution's package repository adds risk that should not be too thoroughly hidden from the user. Scott K -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Announcement: One Click Installer
Krzysztof Lichota: > Greg K Nicholson napisał(a): >> Krzysztof Lichota: >>> Creator of One Click Installer installation file decides which >>> repository will be used. If the application is available in Ubuntu >>> repository I do not see the point why he would prefer to point to some >>> other repository. >> Maybe the OCI file's creator uses a different distro. This is supposed >> to be distro-neutral, right? > > Right. But if the application is in an official, supported repository > for given distro, it is better for the author to point to such > repository as its quality should be higher than some other, third party. > Unless the third party provides some feature which is not available in > official version, but well, it is a tradeoff here. It is up to > installation file author to balance what he thinks is better. So then we'll end up with the installation file author, an Ubuntu user, creating an installation file that points to Ubuntu's repository. If a user of OpenSuSE then comes along and uses that installation file, will they be installing onto an OpenSuSE system from Ubuntu's repository? -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
