Re: shameful censoring of mono opposition

[Andrew Sayers]

Hi Mark,

I think I understand now why you and the list have been butting heads so 
much.  I'd like to present my theory, then explain how you can be more 
productive in advocating to developers.

At a Fortune 500 company, I would expect that advocacy is very political 
- it's important to create (the perception of) a group of "winners" that 
do what you want, and a group of "losers" that don't.  Competition, and 
fear of losing out, are very strong incentives for people in those 
organisations - if they didn't want to win, they wouldn't be in the 
Fortune 500.

Among open source developers, advocacy needs to be much more logical - 
it's important to explain how doing what you want achieves the 
developer's goals.  "Scratching an itch" is widely recognised as the 
most common incentive for open source developers, and any talk that 
doesn't help them scratch their personal itch isn't productive.

Telling open source developers that they should want to scratch a 
different itch won't work.  It's like telling people they should be 
attracted to a different gender, or should have a different taste in 
music - you don't get to choose what your interests are.

Talking about "winning" and "losing" also won't work.  Open source is 
just coming out of a stage where you had to join the losing team in 
order to get in.  In a few years, you might start to see developers 
appear that wanted to join the winning team, but right now anyone that's 
been around long enough to be really effective is for OSS whether it 
wins or loses.

Finally, creating rifts between groups won't work.  Development is about 
sharing a bad idea around until it becomes good, so people that like to 
blacklist those with bad ideas generally don't become developers.

Put simply, Fortune 500 advocacy is like Fortune 500 business - 
confident, aggressive, and victorious.  OSS developer advocacy is like 
OSS development - methodical, inclusive, and accurate.

I discussed a specific model elsewhere[1] that could be used for 
advocacy.  It boils down to stating your premise, explaining your 
reasoning, then arriving at a conclusion.  I recommend you try it out, 
as it will work much better around here.

- Andrew

[1]https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel-discuss/2009-June/008533.html

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Re: Jaunty 64-bit and NVIDIA -- Any ideas?

[Davyd McColl]

Good day

Thanks for your response. Suspecting that there could be a problem with the
card itself (rather inconveniently coincidental, since I just bought a new
mobo, psu and ram after a power surge (as far as I can ascertain) killed my
PSU and I wasn't sure exactly what was dead, and just wanted to cover my
bases; also, as noted in the OP, I reloaded, going from 32bit Jaunty to
64bit -- that seemed like the most likely culprit since 2D was working fine
and 3D worked for a while), I bought an XFX GTX260 -- I've wanted to upgrade
for the last year or so anyways... No problems now. (:

I still find it odd that 2D worked flawlessly and 3D worked for a short
amount of time -- about 5 seconds for glxgears and anywhere from 5 minutes
to a few hours for GL screensavers... But perhaps there was a circuit in the
"3D parts" (I'm no electronic engineer!) which was damaged and just needed
to warm up a little through usage to become blatantly broken.

I'm going to give the card to someone else to test -- will report back. If
the card works fine for someone else, then I really don't know how how to
proceed with debugging this. I would have to assume that if the card isn't
faulty elsewhere, then someone else may encounter the same issue.

I'm still annoyed by the "nvidia flicker" on my laptop -- but apparently
that's a long-standing issue (allegedly the quick black flicker is from the
onboard gpu changing power usage / clock levels).

To answer all posed questions (because it would be rude not to (:  ). Some
answers are from memory, so please bear with me:

1) glxinfo showed the usual large amount of stuff -- with the gl extensions
supplied by NVIDIA
2) Yes, the NVIDIA closed driver was not only installed, but in use -- lsmod
confirmed this (I also started to wonder...)
3) I did have compiz-fusion enabled. Never had the problem before, but I do
believe I tried disabling compiz and still found simple apps like glxgears
to cause lockup. See the wierdness? Compiz-fusion worked fine (with all its
GL interaction), but something with a little more demand wreaked havoc)
4) Yes, totally up-to-date. Compulsively so (:

-d


On Wed, Jun 10, 2009 at 12:41 AM, Dane Mutters  wrote:

> On Mon, 2009-05-25 at 07:59 +0200, Davyd McColl wrote:
> > Good day
> >
> > I've used Ubuntu for quite some time (years), following upgrade cycles
> > on 32-bit and staying clear of 64-bit just because a lot of people
> > have reported having a hard time of it. I recently installed 64-bit
> > Jaunty on my laptop (HP Pavillion dv9352 with NVIDIA 7600 go graphics)
> > and it worked so swimmingly that I decided to finally do a clean
> > 64-bit install on my desktop instead of just dist-upgrade'ing to
> > Jaunty as I would have normally done.
> >
> > Things have been good for a while -- but the problems have started as
> > soon as I've required 3D applications to work. It started when I
> > switched from "Blank Screen" to the "BlinkBox" screensaver. I came
> > back to my machine to find it locked up after a while. This process
> > was repeatable. Suspecting gnome-screensaver, I uninstalled and
> > installed xscreensaver instead -- no change. And other 3D screensavers
> > (like Bouncing Cow) cause the same issue.
> >
> > When I was playin Diablo II via WINE last night, I got a lockup after
> > about 20 min play. All system temps are well within normal operating
> > ranges -- the hardware doesn't seem to be the problem. -
> > keys still work, so the kernel is still alive. Suspecting graphics,
> > I've downgraded from the 180 driver to the 173 -- same effect. The
> > older 96 (iirc) driver doesn't seem to allow compiz, but does seem to
> > suck just as much -- glxgears brought the system to a standstill, with
> > occassional response from the mouse cursor -- but nothing else. I must
> > also note here that glxgears quite reliably reproduces the system
> > lockup for the 173 and 180 drivers.
> >
> > My next recourse is to try the beta (185) drivers from NVIDIA. I would
> > have already but the download I left going overnight apparently broke
> > somehow: the installer is complaining about a checksum mismatch -- so
> > I'm re-downloading.
> >
> > What I want to know is: is this common for 64-bit systems (to have
> > dodgy proprietary (ie, NVIDIA / ATI) drivers)? I've seen a lot of
> > posts online about similar issues but they range right from Warty days
> > -- has this always been an issue? Should I have rather just stuck with
> > 32-bit? And does anyone know of aything other than trying the beta
> > drivers which I can give a bash? I'm not a hectic gamer, but I do like
> > to play something now and then (doom, quake, diablo, serious sam,
> > etc), and it sucks that I'm unable to use a simple GL screensaver.
> >
> > Any ideas are appreciated.
> >
> > -d
>
> Hi, Davyd.
>
> I've been playing around with a few different motherboards at work, and
> have found that some of the ones with built-in 3d accelerated graphics
> behave oddly when the 3D drivers are installe

Re: Ubuntu Desktop Unit Consistency (LP: #369525)

[Christopher Chan]

> It is certainly an improvement to make these things make sense.
>   
Call it whatever you will. Improvement/fixing three decade long error

> We can argue about how to do it, who to work with, etc, but
> this confusion finally needs to be cleaned up.
>   


If I earlier gave the impression not to clean up, it was because this 
whole let's go back to standards did not quite hit me then. Now that we 
are done with that, let us get back on to the how/who part.


Knock the doors of the POSIX committee and whoever else (Microsoft) down 
with a battering ram if you have to, we need to get operating systems 
makers to make a nice big announcement that they will finally stop using 
SI prefixes for multiples of 1024 and schools/whoever should stop 
explaining that kilobyte/KB = 1024 bytes, etc, etc.

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Re: Ubuntu Desktop Unit Consistency (LP: #369525)

[Neal McBurnett]

On Wed, Jun 10, 2009 at 09:01:48AM +0800, Christopher Chan wrote:
> Except that this is not 'improvement'. This is about blowing that 
> erroneous three decade or so operating system convention of using SI 
> prefixes for 1024 multiples of bytes out of the water without adding to 
> the confusion that is leading to this move back to standards. That is 
> absolutely not something Ubuntu specific and therefore not an 
> improvement for the Ubuntu 'movement/OS'.
> 
> Besides, I have already made clear in later posts in this thread that I 
> really do not care what is used so long as it is uniform across all 
> operating systems. If Ubuntu wants to do its thing while other operating 
> systems keep convention, be my guest. You bet that I, for one, will not 
> be installing it anywhere on school campus because the school has more 
> important things to do than preach Ubuntu is right and all other 
> operating systems are wrong which is why you have different numbers for 
> GB on Ubuntu and XP, Solaris and Mac OS X and I will not risk looking 
> like a fool or an Ubuntu/Linux fundamentalist for something the school 
> may or may not care about.

People keep ignoring a part of the original issues pointed out here.
While for some things (e.g. file sizes) there has been a recent
pattern of using the metric units improperly, that is not true when
other things on computers are measured, e.g. bandwidth, and is never
true for any other units (energy, distance, time, etc).

For the prefixes and units to make any sense at all to users, they
need to be consistently used.  We can't expect people to learn that M
means 10^6 for everything except storage on computers.

And anyone who does anything with the numbers (like dividing file
sizes by bandwidth units) to see how long something will take will get
results that are off by larger and larger amounts as we move from
kilobytes to terabytes.

It is certainly an improvement to make these things make sense.
We can argue about how to do it, who to work with, etc, but
this confusion finally needs to be cleaned up.

Neal McBurnett http://neal.mcburnett.org/

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Re: shameful censoring of mono opposition

[Mark Fink]

On Tue, Jun 9, 2009 at 9:42 PM, Mackenzie Morgan wrote:
> On Tuesday 09 June 2009 7:43:37 pm Mark Fink wrote:
>> obviously some of the forum moderators are novell employees (or people
>> who drink they're koolaid) who are censoring respectable people like
>> neighborlee when they speak of the dangers of MONO
>
> We're mostly students, I think.  Computer science, engineering, law, and an
> ex-mod is a botany student.  There's also a guy that works on Xorg for
> Canonical.  I'm both a student and (for my job) working on some open source
> software that's as old as the GNU project itself.

perhaps neighborlee or roy schestowitz should be an ubuntu forum
moderator to bring fairness to the forums?

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Re: shameful censoring of mono opposition

[Mackenzie Morgan]

On Tuesday 09 June 2009 7:43:37 pm Mark Fink wrote:
> obviously some of the forum moderators are novell employees (or people
> who drink they're koolaid) who are censoring respectable people like
> neighborlee when they speak of the dangers of MONO

We're mostly students, I think.  Computer science, engineering, law, and an 
ex-mod is a botany student.  There's also a guy that works on Xorg for 
Canonical.  I'm both a student and (for my job) working on some open source 
software that's as old as the GNU project itself.

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Re: Ubuntu Desktop Unit Consistency (LP: #369525)

[Christopher Chan]

(``-_-´´) -- BUGabundo wrote:
> Olá Chan e a todos.
>
> On Wednesday 03 June 2009 15:57:58 Chan Chung Hang Christopher wrote:
>   
>> You have ENTIRE communities of Linux users who have never even heard of 
>> kibi/mebi/gibi let alone the IEC.
>> 
>
> Let me take this a bit out of context: you have entire countries who never 
> heard of FOSS or GNU/Linux.
> Should that stop us from improving this movement and OS?
>
>   
Except that this is not 'improvement'. This is about blowing that 
erroneous three decade or so operating system convention of using SI 
prefixes for 1024 multiples of bytes out of the water without adding to 
the confusion that is leading to this move back to standards. That is 
absolutely not something Ubuntu specific and therefore not an 
improvement for the Ubuntu 'movement/OS'.

Besides, I have already made clear in later posts in this thread that I 
really do not care what is used so long as it is uniform across all 
operating systems. If Ubuntu wants to do its thing while other operating 
systems keep convention, be my guest. You bet that I, for one, will not 
be installing it anywhere on school campus because the school has more 
important things to do than preach Ubuntu is right and all other 
operating systems are wrong which is why you have different numbers for 
GB on Ubuntu and XP, Solaris and Mac OS X and I will not risk looking 
like a fool or an Ubuntu/Linux fundamentalist for something the school 
may or may not care about.

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Re: shameful censoring of mono opposition

[Mackenzie Morgan]

On Tuesday 09 June 2009 7:56:34 pm Mark Fink wrote:
> On Tue, Jun 9, 2009 at 12:47 PM, David
> > and working on from there. I can't think of any similarly significant
> > contributions from Mark Fink or from Paige Thompson. Why would I "respect"
> > your view more than Miguel's? "Respect" is earned around these parts by
> > doing heavy lifting, not by posting messages to mailing lists.
> 
> not all of us can be programmers, so we contribute in other ways like
> advocating. 

There is no "can't"; there is only "won't even bother to try."  Spend as much 
time learning Python as you've spent arguing here and insulting us all, and 
you'd be pretty far along by now.

> people like me and Roy Schestowitz and others at BN are
> very important for making people aware of the truth so that M$ can't
> destroy Linux.

If Linux is to succeed, it will do so with or without Microsoft technologies.

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Re: shameful censoring of mono opposition

[Mark Fink]

On Tue, Jun 9, 2009 at 1:50 PM, Christopher
Olah wrote:
>> Ubuntu is a centralised entity. No external person can control e.g. why
>> we have a custom search in the home page of firefox by default. People
>> who can't tell the difference will keep using a "different" google, but
>> there is not even way to get some discussion around this (I tried in the
>> past).
>>
>> So if us really feel that this is risky (like it's risky for all
>> centralised organisations, including e.g. google and it's services) then
>> the only alternative is to develop a decentralised linux distribution.
>
> The fact that censorship is an intrinsic risk to any centralized Linux
> distro doesn't make it any more appropriate. If censorship is
> occurring, it needs to stop.

yes it does and the people behind the censorship need to be exposed
for what they really are

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Re: shameful censoring of mono opposition

[Mark Fink]

On Tue, Jun 9, 2009 at 7:58 PM, David
Schlesinger wrote:
> Mark Fink continues to scribble:
>>
>> luckily only stupid people who can't think for themselves fawn over
>> MONO...some of the forum moderators are novell employees (or people
>> who drink they're koolaid)...
>
> Wasn't it you who was complaining not long ago about "personal attacks"...?
> I'll refrain from pointing out the general illiteracy of your message, but
> it's doubtless apparent to anyone for whom English isn't a second language
> as well as many for whom it is.
>
> Maybe you should go start an "I HATE MONO!!!" mailing list, Mark, where you
> can dispense your bile without fear of having anyone point out that you're
> doing nothing to add light here, only heat.
>

no wonder you got reported to your boss, david. you are not very
resptful of your users and customers.

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Re: shameful censoring of mono opposition

[Mark Fink]

On Tue, Jun 9, 2009 at 12:47 PM, David
Schlesinger wrote:
>> it would be better if it was removed from the repos too, but ubuntu
>> would get back some of its respect if it at least removed MONO from
>> the default install like Fedora is doing.
>
> A few questions:
>
> a) "Respect" from whom, exactly? You? Paige?

the Linux community

> b) Why does this matter? Is someone running a contest for "most respected
> Linux distribution? Are there prizes?

no but there are losers like microvell (and ubuntu if it doesn't change)

> c) Why don't you just go ahead, use Fedora and let Ubuntu proceed to its (in
> your view) inevitable doom? Wouldn't that free up a lot of your time for
> more useful things than inciting conversations a which can't really lead to
> any productive result on mailing lists about distributions you don't
> "respect"?

I am trying to help

>
> A few related observations:
>
> a) "Respect", if it matters at all, only matter coming from those who are,
> themselves, worthy of respect.

Roy Schestowitz and Richard Stallman say that MONO is poisonware. are
they not respectable?

> b) I'd suggest that if there's any meaningful dimension to "respect", it
> might be measured by the number of people who take the time to actually use
> a given distro. If that's the case, Ubuntu seems to be more "respected" than
> Fedora.

ego will get you nowhere

> c) I can point to plenty of things which Miguel and others have done which
> seem to me to be deeply worthy of respect from my view, starting with GNOME

only because he couldn't get hired by M$ like he wanted

and then he goes and creates GNOME while badmouthing KDE and splitting
the Linux community. with friends like him, who needs enemies?

> and working on from there. I can't think of any similarly significant
> contributions from Mark Fink or from Paige Thompson. Why would I "respect"
> your view more than Miguel's? "Respect" is earned around these parts by
> doing heavy lifting, not by posting messages to mailing lists.

not all of us can be programmers, so we contribute in other ways like
advocating. people like me and Roy Schestowitz and others at BN are
very important for making people aware of the truth so that M$ can't
destroy Linux.

I've personally advocated Linux to Fortune 500 companies. what have /you/ done?

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Re: shameful censoring of mono opposition

[Mark Fink]

On Tue, Jun 9, 2009 at 12:14 PM, Christopher
Olah wrote:
> It appears to me that the most important point has been forgotten: the
> accusations of censorship. This, if true, is very alarming...
>
> We can bicker over Mono all we like, but if people are being censored,
> like the OP suggests, something is _very_ wrong.
>

this is what happens when you promote MONO boosters to positions of
power, they will poison the distro and ban the people who don't
mindlessly follow them like sheep

to MONO boosters, MONO is a religion: http://nocturn.vsbnet.be/node/142

luckily only stupid people who can't think for themselves fawn over
MONO and follow it like a religion. however, this is a threat to all
of us because they convince many people to use the trojan horse that
is MONO and as you can see on the ubuntuforums they have fooled many
many people into thinking MONO is ok but its not

obviously some of the forum moderators are novell employees (or people
who drink they're koolaid) who are censoring respectable people like
neighborlee when they speak of the dangers of MONO

this behavior is unacceptable and they need to be kicked out for their bias

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Re: Jaunty 64-bit and NVIDIA -- Any ideas?

[Dane Mutters]

On Mon, 2009-05-25 at 07:59 +0200, Davyd McColl wrote:
> Good day
> 
> I've used Ubuntu for quite some time (years), following upgrade cycles
> on 32-bit and staying clear of 64-bit just because a lot of people
> have reported having a hard time of it. I recently installed 64-bit
> Jaunty on my laptop (HP Pavillion dv9352 with NVIDIA 7600 go graphics)
> and it worked so swimmingly that I decided to finally do a clean
> 64-bit install on my desktop instead of just dist-upgrade'ing to
> Jaunty as I would have normally done.
> 
> Things have been good for a while -- but the problems have started as
> soon as I've required 3D applications to work. It started when I
> switched from "Blank Screen" to the "BlinkBox" screensaver. I came
> back to my machine to find it locked up after a while. This process
> was repeatable. Suspecting gnome-screensaver, I uninstalled and
> installed xscreensaver instead -- no change. And other 3D screensavers
> (like Bouncing Cow) cause the same issue.
> 
> When I was playin Diablo II via WINE last night, I got a lockup after
> about 20 min play. All system temps are well within normal operating
> ranges -- the hardware doesn't seem to be the problem. -
> keys still work, so the kernel is still alive. Suspecting graphics,
> I've downgraded from the 180 driver to the 173 -- same effect. The
> older 96 (iirc) driver doesn't seem to allow compiz, but does seem to
> suck just as much -- glxgears brought the system to a standstill, with
> occassional response from the mouse cursor -- but nothing else. I must
> also note here that glxgears quite reliably reproduces the system
> lockup for the 173 and 180 drivers.
> 
> My next recourse is to try the beta (185) drivers from NVIDIA. I would
> have already but the download I left going overnight apparently broke
> somehow: the installer is complaining about a checksum mismatch -- so
> I'm re-downloading.
> 
> What I want to know is: is this common for 64-bit systems (to have
> dodgy proprietary (ie, NVIDIA / ATI) drivers)? I've seen a lot of
> posts online about similar issues but they range right from Warty days
> -- has this always been an issue? Should I have rather just stuck with
> 32-bit? And does anyone know of aything other than trying the beta
> drivers which I can give a bash? I'm not a hectic gamer, but I do like
> to play something now and then (doom, quake, diablo, serious sam,
> etc), and it sucks that I'm unable to use a simple GL screensaver.
> 
> Any ideas are appreciated.
> 
> -d

Hi, Davyd.

I've been playing around with a few different motherboards at work, and
have found that some of the ones with built-in 3d accelerated graphics
behave oddly when the 3D drivers are installed.  (Some of them will
exhibit the behavior you've described, even though they're up to spec
for running a given application.)

That being said, perhaps you could post (or attach) the output of this
command?  (Omit the '$'--as you probably know, it's part of the command
prompt.)

$ glxinfo

Also, please post or attach your /etc/X11/xorg.conf file, and the output
of the command, 'lsmod | grep nvidia'.  I'm interested in knowing
whether the nVidia driver is actually being used, or if it's installed
but disabled for some reason.

Do you have Desktop effects (compiz-fusion) enabled?  Try turning them
off; perhaps the problem lies in compiz, not in the driver.

I take it you've gotten all the system updates via the Update Manager?
If not, it might be a good thing to do.

I may not be a devel, but at least I can help troubleshoot. :-)

--Dane Mutters


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Re: Whatever happened to...

[Justin M. Wray]

+1
Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T

-Original Message-
From: Evan 

Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 17:57:04 
To: Ubuntu Development Discussion List
Subject: Whatever happened to...


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Re: Ubuntu Desktop Unit Consistency (LP: #369525)

[(``-_-´´) -- BUGabundo]

Olá Chan e a todos.

On Wednesday 03 June 2009 15:57:58 Chan Chung Hang Christopher wrote:
> You have ENTIRE communities of Linux users who have never even heard of 
> kibi/mebi/gibi let alone the IEC.

Let me take this a bit out of context: you have entire countries who never 
heard of FOSS or GNU/Linux.
Should that stop us from improving this movement and OS?

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Re: Jaunty 64-bit and NVIDIA -- Any ideas?

[(``-_-´´) -- BUGabundo]

Olá Davyd e a todos.

On Monday 25 May 2009 06:59:05 Davyd McColl wrote:
> What I want to know is: is this common for 64-bit systems (to have dodgy
> proprietary (ie, NVIDIA / ATI) drivers)? 

I've been running 64 bits on this laptop (with NVidia FeForce 8400) and the 
close source driver, since 7.10 up to 9.10a1.
I never noticed anything as you describe, other then a "few" lookups due to bad 
driver or kernel bug.

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Re: Cron jobs too heavy for ordinary systems (system completely unusable for a while)

[(``-_-´´) -- BUGabundo]

Olá Vincenzo e a todos.

On Saturday 23 May 2009 12:26:04 Vincenzo Ciancia wrote:
> Perhaps this is a bug in the kernel related to suspend. I will
> investigate again the problem in the following days.

After 3 or 4 hibernate/resume cycles my system tends to slow down a lot.
So usually i have to reboot after 2 or 3 days.

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Re: Cron jobs too heavy for ordinary systems (system completely unusable for a while)

[(``-_-´´) -- BUGabundo]

Olá Vincenzo e a todos.

On Saturday 23 May 2009 12:10:58 Vincenzo Ciancia wrote:
> I am running jaunty. Sometimes, randomly, the disk starts spinning (I
> hear the noise and see the light) and the system becomes unusable.
> Often, to gain control of a shell (even in console) is a matter of
> waiting minutes and eventually, when I finally can do some "top" "iotop"
> or "ps" to understand what's happening, the storms is already calmed and
> I can't see anything. I am not running trackerd on this machine (and
> with last year of development, it's rarely the culprit).

I just notice my system slowing down and disk activity to max.
running atop on TTY4 I saw updatedb hamering the disk.
Wasnt it supposed to run at something like 2am? its 9pm now.

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Whatever happened to...

[Evan]

In the Intrepid cycle, there was something going on where it would add a
"last good boot" option to grub instead of all the old kernels in order to
keep the list cleaner and shorter. It was dropped quite close to release
because of some unfixed bugs, and seems to have disappeared. Whatever
happened to that? Is it still on the table for some future release, or is it
dead?

In the Jaunty cycle, there was the option to encrypt the users entire home
folder with ecryptfs. It too was dropped late due to some unfixed bugs. Is
it still on the table for Karmic assuming the bugs get fixed, or is it dead
as well?

I personally would like to see both of these feature, and I'm curious what
happened to them.

Evan
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Re: GRUB 2 now default for new installations

[Matt Price]

On Tue, 2009-06-09 at 15:21 -0400, Mackenzie Morgan wrote:
> On Monday 08 June 2009 6:45:20 pm André Pirard wrote:
> > Similarly, the swap partition should be a Linux file.
> 
> I think this was talked about at UDS as something people wanted to do.

were there discussions about how to manage hibernation?  tuxonice and i
think uswsusp can write to a swapfile, but i'm not sure that swsusp can
do that right now.  

m

> 
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Re: Properly identifying applications

[Tim Zakharov]

I like the idea of App name - function, or Function - app name.  Either
way.   There are enough hard-to-pronounce app names in the Linux world
that it should be required to list the app function along with the app
name. Even listening to Linux podcasts, there is never any consensus on
how to pronounce various apps, DE's, distros, etc.  I also agree about
Evince being mis-labeled as a "document" viewer when in reality it is a
PDF file viewer.

Back to the original poster's comments, I would like Totem Movie Player
to be called just that, rather than Movie Player.  Why?  Totem has a
Youtube plugin that I often use rather than navigating to youtube.com. 
I know Totem does this, but it doesn't say Totem in the menu entry.  I
often get Movie Player mixed up with Mplayer, so usually on my
installs, I manually rename Movie Player to Totem Movie Player.


Patrick Goetz wrote:

  It looks like no one responded to the concern raised below.  It makes 
sense to me that all applications should be identified by their name as 
well as their function in gnome GUI menus.  Furthermore, not doing so 
frequently increases confusion for naive users.  For example, due to 
ongoing bugs with the linux acrobat reader postscript rendering engine, 
users frequently come to our office because they couldn't print a pdf 
file.  We tell them to use evince instead of acrobat reader.  They look 
for a program called evince in the menus, and can't find anything.  No 
one knows to look for "Document Viewer" -- in fact, what does this even 
mean?  What kind of documents?  In 9.04 Document Viewer appears to have 
disappeared from the menu, but "Image Viewer" is still there.  The 
default image viewer used to be Eye of Gnome, but this appears to be 
something different  -- since the menu is non-standard, one can't tell 
from the application itself; the only way to find out is to dig through 
/usr/share/applications.

When the command line is more user friendly than the GUI, this should 
set off those little alarm bells that something needs to be done 
differently.

Of course the complication in the linux world is the plethora of choices 
which exist for each application type, especially on larger networks 
like ours where users are strongly opinionated about which {editor, 
compiler, pdf viewer, image viewer, browser, etc.} is the best one and 
must be installed.  How to create a manageable user experience for the 
less knowledgeable user in the presence of dozens of choices for each 
task?  I'm not sure what the answer is at the moment, but a no-brainer 
choice is to clearly identify WHAT application is being invoked from the 
menu.


  
  
Date: Sat, 6 Jun 2009 13:41:43 +0100
From: Peter Berry 
Subject: Using functional descriptions for default applications' menu
	entries
To: ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com

Bug 105685 (https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/totem/+bug/105685)
was recently rejected again, on the grounds that "it's not a bug",
despite apparent consensus (from my and another's admittedly biased
perspective) that it is. See previous thread:
http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.linux.ubuntu.devel.discuss/1101

I have four media players installed: MPlayer, Xine, Totem and VLC. I
find all of them wanting from time to time and if one doesn't work,
it's useful to be able to try another. So on my system clearly "Movie
Player" is ambiguous and makes it more difficult to find Totem. (It's
also an Americanism and imprecise since it also plays pure audio - IMO
"video player" or "media player" would be better.) I also find it
galling that GNOME devs apparently think it is OK to say Movie Player
= Totem, as if nothing else in the world deserved the name.


  
  
  




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Re: GRUB 2 now default for new installations

[Mackenzie Morgan]

On Monday 08 June 2009 6:45:20 pm André Pirard wrote:
> Similarly, the swap partition should be a Linux file.

I think this was talked about at UDS as something people wanted to do.

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Re: shameful censoring of mono opposition

[Mackenzie Morgan]

On Monday 08 June 2009 5:26:17 pm Paige Thompson wrote:
> well _sir_, I just cant help _but_ notice _that_ you are all_acting
> douchebags--_and_ I thought _I_ might _make_ that obser_vation_.

Well that wasn't very polite...

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menu application naming

[Patrick Goetz]

 > Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 17:45:56 +0200
 > From: Soren Hansen 
 > Subject: Re: Properly identifying applications
 > To: ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com
 >
 > If you put yourself in the place of someone who is not used to
 > Linux: You have a document you want to open (and for some reason
 > you don't  just click on it in Nautilus, but let's ignore that
 > for a little bit).  How are you supposed to know to look
 > for something called "Evince"? How is
 > having that name in the menu going to be helpful?

Sorry, I guess I didn't make my point clearly; I'm not advocating that 
the menu entry just be "Evince" but rather something like

"PDF Document Viewer (Evince)"

See the KDE4/Kubuntu menus for an example of how this can elegantly be 
accomplished.

I still object to the specific designation "Document Viewer" as it's 
simply false:

   evince foo.doc
 and
   evince foo.odt

do not work, so this is most definitely NOT a document viewer.  You're 
confusing users by calling it that.  (For the technical users who view 
ps/dvi files, there can be another menu entry called "Postscript/DVI 
Viewer (Evince)".)


 > I couldn't disagree more. The no-brainer choice it exactly to NOT show
 > which application is being invoked. What's important is the task it
 > performs, not what it's called. If the user needs to know the name of
 > the application he's using to do something, we're doing something
 > wrong. To view documents, you use a document viewer.
 > If we change the default document viewer at some point,
 > the user's experience shouldn't change. They shouldn't have
 > to know that we've replaced Evince with FooPDFViewer.
 > They should just keep using "Document Viewer" and have the
 > best possible experience.


While this philosophy makes sense when dealing with relatively naive 
home users, it falls a bit short for power users and institutional 
(large network) installations.  Let's take the case of power users 
first.  All programs have bugs, otherwise your point would be better 
received.  Working in an environment where people are frequently pushing 
certain kinds of applications to the limit, we're aware of dozens of 
specific issues in different programs.  For example, depending on 
precisely what a user is trying to do, I will recommend that they use 
acroread, evince, or xpdf (usually after one or the other has failed at 
fill out forms, or printing, or properly rendering certain kinds of 
documents -- in extreme cases, we have to invoke pdftk).  Changing the 
underlying program without letting anyone know is an excellent way to 
completely annoy power users.

The situation with institutional users is even worse.  With >300 linux 
machines, we use an automated installation system to install packages on 
machines and keep them up to date.  Every time we upgrade to a new 
ubuntu system, we have to first install 1 or 2 machines using the 
Desktop CD in order to try and figure out what Canonical has decided to 
change, particularly in the user interface, about which ordinary users 
are most apt to complain.  Forcing me to put on my Sherlock Holmes hat 
in order to deduce that, say, evince is no longer part of the default 
distro, is not the way to make new friends.

So to repeat:  The ideal is a system which is sufficiently friendly for 
naive users while not unnecessarily impeding the work of power users and 
administrators.  Yes, this is a challenging task, but Microsoft Bob 
should provide some indication of what happens when you only cater to 
the former group.  <:)




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Re: devel-dicuss: the list itself, and mono

[Joe Terranova]

On Tue, Jun 9, 2009 at 11:33 AM, Patrick Goetz wrote:
> Given that my signal to noise ratio is already at a white noise breaking
> point (and that I'm probably not alone here), can we please keep these
> kinds of tit-for-tat arguments, rhetoric, ad hominem attacks, and
> flirting off the devel-discuss list?  Surely facebook, twitter, digg,
> etc. should provide adequate bandwidth to meet these needs.  Thanks in
> advance for your cooperation in this matter.

I think the real issue here is that the code of conduct has gone out
the window in that conversation. When someone starts emailing people's
bosses about them, things have gone a bit too far. I emailed the
person who first posted to tell them they were making a mountain out
of a mole hill, but it didn't seem to stick.

Joe Terranova

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Re: GRUB 2 now default for new installations

[Robbie Williamson]

On 06/08/2009 05:45 PM, André Pirard wrote:
> On 2009-06-08 23:32,  Colin Watson wrote :
>> As of tomorrow's daily builds (assuming they build successfully,
>> anyway), GRUB 2 will be the default boot loader for new installations,
>> pursuant to the grub2-as-default discussion at UDS.
>>   
> GRUB should be in its own partition, tentatively containing repair tools
> too.
> This makes Ubuntu or any Linux  undestroyable by Windows or anyone.
> Restoring GRU/Ubuntu would be a most standard setting of a boot flag.
> 
> Similarly, the swap partition should be a Linux file.
See http://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/foundations-karmic-swapfile

> This frees the user from swap considerations and opens Linux to dynamic
> swap size.
> I once made twin disks and I fell in a trap.
> I thought Linux would use the only swap partition on the disk.
> But the swap partition was referenced by UUID.
> 
> Using both features would make the partition count a statu quo.
> 
> 
> I, as a Linux sower, find both topics important when I make an
> installation.* *
> 


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Re: GRUB 2 now default for new installations

[Derek Broughton]

Markus Hitter wrote:

> 
> Am 09.06.2009 um 00:45 schrieb André Pirard:
> 
>> Similarly, the swap partition should be a Linux file.
>> This frees the user from swap considerations and opens Linux to
>> dynamic swap size.
> 
> + 1

Not unless you have fixed the ability to hibernate to a swap file...

Last time I looked (last week...) it was still a pretty convoluted process, 
to do this, I could only find instructions for swsusp, and its only for the 
very geeky.
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Re: shameful censoring of mono opposition

[Christopher Olah]

> Ubuntu is a centralised entity. No external person can control e.g. why
> we have a custom search in the home page of firefox by default. People
> who can't tell the difference will keep using a "different" google, but
> there is not even way to get some discussion around this (I tried in the
> past).
>
> So if us really feel that this is risky (like it's risky for all
> centralised organisations, including e.g. google and it's services) then
> the only alternative is to develop a decentralised linux distribution.

The fact that censorship is an intrinsic risk to any centralized Linux
distro doesn't make it any more appropriate. If censorship is
occurring, it needs to stop.

Still, the idea of a decentralized Linux distro is cool. You could
have it work on a Web Of Trust It sort of reminds me of Linus
Torvalds Google Talk on Git:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4XpnKHJAok8

> If it was easy I'd already have done that :) Otherwise we have to stick
> with the anyways good level of trust that we have on the ubuntu entity.

And with that trust comes scrutiny.


Christopher

PS. Sorry, Vincenzo, for the double copies. I forgot to reply to all
the first time...

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Re: Properly identifying applications

[Vincenzo Ciancia]

Il giorno mar, 09/06/2009 alle 17.45 +0200, Soren Hansen ha scritto:
> 
> 
> Couldn't this be easily resolved by you telling them to use "Document
> Viewer" rather than telling them to use "Evince"?

If all programs were equally feature complete and bug free, or if there
was a clear winner and that was installed by default, yes.

You can evaluate yourself if the precondition is true in jaunty

V.


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Re: Properly identifying applications

[Vincenzo Ciancia]

Il giorno mar, 09/06/2009 alle 16.55 +0200, David MENTRE ha scritto:
> 
> I agree. Displaying a "Document Viewer (evince)" or "Document Viewer /
> evince" would be a big plus.

Yes also because this is needed when talking to ordinary non-technical
users e.g. my mother on the phone "I could not see  the pictures" -
"what program did you use?" "the picture viewer of course, do you think
I am stupid?" :)

V.


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Re: shameful censoring of mono opposition

[Vincenzo Ciancia]

Il giorno mar, 09/06/2009 alle 12.14 -0400, Christopher Olah ha scritto:
> 
> It appears to me that the most important point has been forgotten: the
> accusations of censorship. This, if true, is very alarming...
> 
> We can bicker over Mono all we like, but if people are being censored,
> like the OP suggests, something is _very_ wrong.
> 

Ubuntu is a centralised entity. No external person can control e.g. why
we have a custom search in the home page of firefox by default. People
who can't tell the difference will keep using a "different" google, but
there is not even way to get some discussion around this (I tried in the
past).

So if us really feel that this is risky (like it's risky for all
centralised organisations, including e.g. google and it's services) then
the only alternative is to develop a decentralised linux distribution.

If it was easy I'd already have done that :) Otherwise we have to stick
with the anyways good level of trust that we have on the ubuntu entity.

V.


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Re: shameful censoring of mono opposition

[Vincenzo Ciancia]

Il giorno mar, 09/06/2009 alle 09.48 -0400, Mark Fink ha scritto:
> 
> that's a LOT of bloat
> 
> also programs like Gnote are GPL3 so you are protected from patents

Come on this is the only fair criticism that I have seen until now; I
think we still don't ship timidity fonts and have broken midi because of
space on the cd, now I don't know how many standard ubuntu users really
need tomboy and f-spot in the default install but certainly half of the
ubuntuers I know don't use those.

V.


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Re: GRUB 2 now default for new installations

[``-_-´´]

On Mon, Jun 8, 2009 at 11:45 PM, André Pirard wrote:
> Similarly, the swap partition should be a Linux file.
> This frees the user from swap considerations and opens Linux to dynamic swap
> size.

There was a blueprint to discuss at UDS:
https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/foundations-karmic-swapfile

At this time it has no updates.

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Re: GRUB 2 now default for new installations

[Markus Hitter]

Am 09.06.2009 um 00:45 schrieb André Pirard:

> Similarly, the swap partition should be a Linux file.
> This frees the user from swap considerations and opens Linux to  
> dynamic swap size.

+ 1

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Dipl. Ing. Markus Hitter
http://www.jump-ing.de/





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Re: Properly identifying applications

[Jordan Mantha]

On Tue, Jun 9, 2009 at 8:45 AM, Soren Hansen wrote:
> On Tue, Jun 09, 2009 at 09:50:26AM -0500, Patrick Goetz wrote:

>> No one knows to look for "Document Viewer"
>
> If you put yourself in the place of someone who is not used to Linux:
> You have a document you want to open (and for some reason you don't just
> click on it in Nautilus, but let's ignore that for a little bit).  How
> are you supposed to know to look for something called "Evince"? How is
> having that name in the menu going to be helpful?

It is useful if you  know that that is the name of the app/package.
While I totally agree that for new users "Evince" gives no idea as to
the function of the app, it's pretty much equally difficult for people
who know the name but can't remember what the task name is. For
instance, with Gnome-do I have to know what the name of the app is as
it's written in the menu. I have to remember what the silly name for
evince is. I personally expect it to have PDF in the name and always
forget "Document" so I end up having to hunt in the menu to find what
the thing is called. Have you ever tried to open Seahorse via
Gnome-do? What I personally like to see is how F-spot and GIMP do it
where it's listed as   like F-spot Photo Manager. It helps
"experienced" users like me find what I want, helps inexperienced
users know what apps do, and helps them if they need to know the name
in the future (say getting support or filing bugs).

>> Of course the complication in the linux world is the plethora of
>> choices which exist for each application type, especially on larger
>> networks like ours where users are strongly opinionated about which
>> {editor, compiler, pdf viewer, image viewer, browser, etc.} is the
>> best one and must be installed.  How to create a manageable user
>> experience for the less knowledgeable user in the presence of dozens
>> of choices for each task?  I'm not sure what the answer is at the
>> moment, but a no-brainer choice is to clearly identify WHAT
>> application is being invoked from the menu.
>
> I couldn't disagree more. The no-brainer choice it exactly to NOT show
> which application is being invoked. What's important is the task it
> performs, not what it's called. If the user needs to know the name of
> the application he's using to do something, we're doing something wrong.
> To view documents, you use a document viewer. If we change the default
> document viewer at some point, the user's experience shouldn't change.
> They shouldn't have to know that we've replaced Evince with
> FooPDFViewer. They should just keep using "Document Viewer" and have the
> best possible experience.

I can see where you're coming from, but do you really think that it
doesn't matter to people if the default app for a task changes? I
mean, I guess in an ideal world one shouldn't have to worry about the
name of the app they are using but for right now it very much does. If
I call up my university help desk and say I need help with how my web
browser acts with their site the first thing they ask me is what
browser I'm using. If all I can say is "in Ubuntu it just says Web
Browser" I'm not going to get very far.

Additionally, people aren't stupid, it's possible for them to learn
app names and I don't know that we need to treat them as if the actual
name of the app their using is over their heads. The important point
is that they shouldn't be left with *just* an app name in a menu as it
lacks almost all context (I know this "Pidgin" thing has something to
do with the Internet but I have no idea what it does).

-Jordan

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RE: shameful censoring of mono opposition

[David Schlesinger]

> Basically, it just needs the same love as Mono.

One thing I think I can state with certainty about free and open source 
software development is that demanding that a bunch of other folks drop what 
they're doing and "give love" to something else on your behalf never works. 
Maybe your time, and Mark's, would be better spent writing a credible F-Spot 
replacement if you think that's something that needs to be done; certainly 
don't expect anyone else to do it because F-Spot happens to upset you.

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Re: GRUB 2 now default for new installations

[André Pirard]

On 2009-06-08 23:32,  Colin Watson wrote :

As of tomorrow's daily builds (assuming they build successfully,
anyway), GRUB 2 will be the default boot loader for new installations,
pursuant to the grub2-as-default discussion at UDS.
  
GRUB should be in its own partition, tentatively containing repair tools 
too.

This makes Ubuntu or any Linux  undestroyable by Windows or anyone.
Restoring GRU/Ubuntu would be a most standard setting of a boot flag.

Similarly, the swap partition should be a Linux file.
This frees the user from swap considerations and opens Linux to dynamic 
swap size.

I once made twin disks and I fell in a trap.
I thought Linux would use the only swap partition on the disk.
But the swap partition was referenced by UUID.

Using both features would make the partition count a statu quo.


I, as a Linux sower, find both topics important when I make an 
installation.* *
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RE: shameful censoring of mono opposition

[David Schlesinger]

> well _sir_, I just cant help _but_ notice _that_ you are all_acting
> douchebags--_and_ I thought _I_ might _make_ that obser_vation_.

With a free-floating, completely content-free snipe at one of "us all". It 
hardly rises to the level of an "observation".

(And if I used _italics_, you'd doubtless whine about HTML in your email, I 
imagine. I have no objection to you posting, but it's be nice if you'd actually 
say something. I hate to see those electrons used in such a wasteful way.)

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RE: shameful censoring of mono opposition

[David Schlesinger]

> Someone from Access chimed in on this one, glad he's getting paid to dick
> around like this.

Er, _what_? I'm afraid I'm unable to work out the relevance of this comment to 
that message.

Not to put too fine a point on it, I'm actually still on sabbatical this week, 
so to be technical, I'm getting paid to _relax_. Watching my inbox filling up 
with the same nonsensical "Mono is a Microsoft plot to take over Linux, and 
Miguel and the gang are actually undercover shills for Steve Ballmer" flamewar, 
instigated yet _again_ on this list by Mark Fink, is harshing my mellow...

Personally, I think you have to bend over backwards to suggest that Miguel (and 
the rest of the folks) have not contributed _immeasurably_ over the years to 
free software.

As for Mono apps, as a photographer, I like F-Stop and I use it. Nautilus might 
work for some folks, but with literally hundred and thousands of photos to sort 
through, that won't work for me. If someone wants to come up with a credible 
non-Mono replacement for that, and _then_ argue that F-Stop should be removed, 
fine. But please don't tell me, in effect, that I should use LaTex instead of 
Open Office to do all my documents because a) OO can save things in MS Word 
format, and that's evil, or patented, or something, and b) that LaTex works 
fine for _you_...

The solution I see here is that Mark Fink and Remco and others who feel 
similarly find some other distribution more to their tastes than Ubuntu. And if 
Mark Shuttleworth wants or doesn't want something in Ubuntu, he's more than 
capable of saying so, he doesn't need folks attempting to channel him here...
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Re: shameful censoring of mono opposition

[Christopher Olah]

It appears to me that the most important point has been forgotten: the
accusations of censorship. This, if true, is very alarming...

We can bicker over Mono all we like, but if people are being censored,
like the OP suggests, something is _very_ wrong.

Just my $0.02...

Christopher

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Re: shameful censoring of mono opposition

[David Schlesinger]

I want to thank Paige for taking advantage of my "out of the office"  
advisory to share her generally childish behavior with my manager, off- 
list. We had a good laugh over that one, thanks. No jobs available for  
you right now, Paige, sorry, but feel free to send a resume when you  
get to be eleven or so, hm?


__
Sent from my Steve-Phone

On Jun 9, 2009, at 6:26, "Paige Thompson"  wrote:

well _sir_, I just cant help _but_ notice _that_ you are all_acting  
douchebags--_and_ I thought _I_ might _make_ that obser_vation_.


On Mon, Jun 8, 2009 at 2:22 PM, David Schlesinger > wrote:
> Someone from Access chimed in on this one, glad he's getting paid  
to dick

> around like this.

Er, _what_? I'm afraid I'm unable to work out the relevance of this  
comment to that message.


Not to put too fine a point on it, I'm actually still on sabbatical  
this week, so to be technical, I'm getting paid to _relax_. Watching  
my inbox filling up with the same nonsensical "Mono is a Microsoft  
plot to take over Linux, and Miguel and the gang are actually  
undercover shills for Steve Ballmer" flamewar, instigated yet  
_again_ on this list by Mark Fink, is harshing my mellow...


Personally, I think you have to bend over backwards to suggest that  
Miguel (and the rest of the folks) have not contributed  
_immeasurably_ over the years to free software.


As for Mono apps, as a photographer, I like F-Stop and I use it.  
Nautilus might work for some folks, but with literally hundred and  
thousands of photos to sort through, that won't work for me. If  
someone wants to come up with a credible non-Mono replacement for  
that, and _then_ argue that F-Stop should be removed, fine. But  
please don't tell me, in effect, that I should use LaTex instead of  
Open Office to do all my documents because a) OO can save things in  
MS Word format, and that's evil, or patented, or something, and b)  
that LaTex works fine for _you_...


The solution I see here is that Mark Fink and Remco and others who  
feel similarly find some other distribution more to their tastes  
than Ubuntu. And if Mark Shuttleworth wants or doesn't want  
something in Ubuntu, he's more than capable of saying so, he doesn't  
need folks attempting to channel him here...





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RE: shameful censoring of mono opposition

[David Schlesinger]

> Oh, so now Ubuntu also comes with Windows Media, H.264 and DivX? You
> can find those in the repositories as well. Maybe we should call
> MPEG-LA that there is big patent infringement going on here...

You can't find them in the universal repository, and some great lengths are 
gone to in order to ensure you know what you're doing before you can install 
them.

> Of course not. The repositories are not part of the default install,
> and should not be treated as such.

As Derek pointed out, Wine is indeed in the universal repository. You were 
completely mistaken about it, rendering your argument meaningless. The 
appropriate response at that point is to say, "I was wrong", not to try to 
switch to a completely different argument in mid-stream. Nobody's come within a 
parsec of suggesting that the codecs you mention should be part of the default 
install.
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Re: Reproducible w3m bug

[(``-_-´´) -- BUGabundo]

Olá Sitsofe e a todos.

On Friday 15 May 2009 12:14:31 Sitsofe Wheeler wrote:
> That's reasonable too but w3m is installed by default and if it's used by so 
> few
> perhaps it shouldn't be there by default - it strikes me as unsafe to be 
> putting
> packages that can't be supported on people's systems out of the box. Wouldn't 
> it
> be better to migrate to products that were actively maintained? Your comment
> clearly stands for rrootage though.

That remind me of another thing:
Should package that are in Universe and unmaintained[1] show that in Launchpad 
and _suggest_ the user to upstream them?
I understand that _not_ all user will know/want to do that, but at least it 
would allow more experienced bug filling users to be more alerted to this 
problems. A LP team could be created and members of such team could then see 
this extra info directly on the bug filling page, that way, regular users would 
be undisturbed by this extra info.

What do you guys think?

[1] I know that identifying unmaintained packages is not easy, specially since 
any one (coredev, MOTU, etc) can at any given time start to work on "those" 
packages. Maybe it could be done by a ratio of number of bugs and triaged ones ?

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Re: shameful censoring of mono opposition

[Morten Kjeldgaard]

Scott James Remnant wrote:

> Why should Ubuntu actively prevent a developer from writing software in
> C# if they wish?  That software may not even be intended to be shipped
> in Ubuntu, what if they want to use Ubuntu as the basis for an
> application that happens to be written in C#?  Do you seriously believe
> we shouldn't allow this?
> 
> For that reason, I actively and passionately disagree with any argument
> that a C# Development environment such as Mono should not be provided
> for Ubuntu.

Although I've uttered scepticism towards Mono before, I actually agree
with that. I know of at least one example where a incarnated .NET
programmer discovered that he could port his work easily to Linux and do
his work there, and make his program available on the lab Linux
workstations.

> On the patent concerns, the only thing I'd say is that patents are
> inherently uninteresting unless they are being enforced by their
> holders.  Since Microsoft are not currently enforcing any C#-related
> patents--indeed is it even known whether they hold any?--that doesn't
> appear to be a concern.

The main fear wrt to Mono is that IF Ubuntu and other distributions came
to rely on "killer apps" programmed in C#, we'd be extremely vulnerable
to the kind of FUD Microsoft has a history of spreading. In fact, just
threatening with repercussions against users of the distro might be
enough to scare corporate and business users away.

If I were Balmer, that's what I'd do; why risk losing a patent case when
you can use FUD forever with the same result?

On the other hand, we should be careful not destroying our community
with hateful flamewars, and creating divisions where there are none.

So let's not create a problem before it actually arises. We really must
believe in the strength of the FOSS community. If Microsoft indeed did
pursue a patent case, the FOSS community would be able to work around it
quicker than they can say "pay us". Let's not succumb to fear.

All of us are believers of freedom. Consequently, we cannot censor
packages that otherwise fulfil the DFSG. What will be the next thing
then? Banning Firefox because it has an icon of a fox twisting in agony
with its tail on fire?

If users want to use Mono packages, they should be free to do so. If
users don't want them, they can install the mononono package [1] to help
keep them off their system.

Cheers,
Morten

[1] http://tim.thechases.com/mononono/

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GPG Key ID: 404825E7

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Re: Properly identifying applications

[David MENTRE]

Hello Soren,

On Tue, Jun 9, 2009 at 17:45, Soren Hansen wrote:
> You think "Evince" is more helpful than "Document Viewer"? How so?

I personally think we should keep both, e.g. "Document Viewer
(Evince)". Why not have an inclusive view instead of an exclusive one?
The exact instantiation could vary, for example it could be a tooltip
displayed with the menu item.

Is having "(Evince)" in the menu item so confusing for the user?
(honest question, studies might have shown that, I don't know)

[...]
> To view documents, you use a document viewer. If we change the default
> document viewer at some point, the user's experience shouldn't change.
> They shouldn't have to know that we've replaced Evince with
> FooPDFViewer. They should just keep using "Document Viewer" and have the
> best possible experience.

This seems to me a bit theory vs. practice argument. I agree that for
the casual user, he does not care if the document viewer is Evince or
FooPDFViewer.

However, for a more experienced user that has started to install new
applications (e.g. FooPDFViewer), this is important. The application
*is* different in some way (even in ABrowser/Firefix case). The user
knows that he has installed the application but he does not know how
to reach it, i.e. find the proper menu item.

Moreover, it could be useful in other contexts. For example, I already
had issues with some Ubuntu administration applications but could not
report a bug against the correct package because I could not know its
name.

Anyway, do as you feel it. I just wanted to add another user feedback
to Patrick and Peter ones. I personally think their remarks deserve
some thinking.

Yours,
david

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Re: Properly identifying applications

[Soren Hansen]

On Tue, Jun 09, 2009 at 09:50:26AM -0500, Patrick Goetz wrote:
> It makes sense to me that all applications should be identified by
> their name as well as their function in gnome GUI menus.

I disagree. I /love/ the fact that our menu's aren't full of meaningless
names of applications. In fact, Gimp's and f-spot's menu entries annoy
me *a lot*.

> Furthermore, not doing so frequently increases confusion for naive
> users.

You think "Evince" is more helpful than "Document Viewer"? How so?

> For example, due to ongoing bugs with the linux acrobat reader
> postscript rendering engine, users frequently come to our office
> because they couldn't print a pdf file.  We tell them to use evince
> instead of acrobat reader.  They look for a program called evince in
> the menus, and can't find anything. 

Couldn't this be easily resolved by you telling them to use "Document
Viewer" rather than telling them to use "Evince"?

> No one knows to look for "Document Viewer" 

If you put yourself in the place of someone who is not used to Linux:
You have a document you want to open (and for some reason you don't just
click on it in Nautilus, but let's ignore that for a little bit).  How
are you supposed to know to look for something called "Evince"? How is
having that name in the menu going to be helpful?

> Of course the complication in the linux world is the plethora of
> choices which exist for each application type, especially on larger
> networks like ours where users are strongly opinionated about which
> {editor, compiler, pdf viewer, image viewer, browser, etc.} is the
> best one and must be installed.  How to create a manageable user
> experience for the less knowledgeable user in the presence of dozens
> of choices for each task?  I'm not sure what the answer is at the
> moment, but a no-brainer choice is to clearly identify WHAT
> application is being invoked from the menu.

I couldn't disagree more. The no-brainer choice it exactly to NOT show
which application is being invoked. What's important is the task it
performs, not what it's called. If the user needs to know the name of
the application he's using to do something, we're doing something wrong.
To view documents, you use a document viewer. If we change the default
document viewer at some point, the user's experience shouldn't change.
They shouldn't have to know that we've replaced Evince with
FooPDFViewer. They should just keep using "Document Viewer" and have the
best possible experience.

-- 
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Lead Virtualisation Engineer | Ubuntu Server Team
Canonical Ltd.   | http://www.ubuntu.com/


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devel-dicuss: the list itself, and mono

[Patrick Goetz]

Given that my signal to noise ratio is already at a white noise breaking 
point (and that I'm probably not alone here), can we please keep these 
kinds of tit-for-tat arguments, rhetoric, ad hominem attacks, and 
flirting off the devel-discuss list?  Surely facebook, twitter, digg, 
etc. should provide adequate bandwidth to meet these needs.  Thanks in 
advance for your cooperation in this matter.

Re: the shame of mono:  if you really want to defeat the Evil Empire, 
then stop wasting everyone's time posting about how terrible it is and 
get busy designing and/or working on an open source framework that can 
get the job done as well or better.  That's how things work around here, 
as should be clear from a decade or so of linux development.



> Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 00:31:36 -0700
> From: Paige Thompson 
> Subject: Re: shameful censoring of mono opposition
> To: David Schlesinger 
> Cc: ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com,Derek Broughton
>   
> Message-ID:
>   <5061b39c0906090031h46704f19s5c74e1f1b3ae0...@mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
> 
> You're welcome David, anytime you want to set yourself up for that go for
> it. I can't promise I'll be here to hand your ass to you after you've so
> carelessly lost track of it, unfortunately.
> 
> 
> On Mon, Jun 8, 2009 at 10:36 PM, David Schlesinger <
> david.schlesin...@access-company.com> wrote:
> 
>> I want to thank Paige for taking advantage of my "out of the office"
>> advisory to share her generally childish behavior with my manager, off-list.
>> We had a good laugh over that one, thanks. No jobs available for you right
>> now, Paige, sorry, but feel free to send a resume when you get to be eleven
>> or so, hm?
>>

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Re: Properly identifying applications

[LD 'Gus' Landis]

Patrick,

  What a great line!!!  Umm... "shoot the GUI"?? (my command-line response).
  Thanks for the smile.

On Tue, Jun 9, 2009 at 8:50 AM, Patrick Goetz wrote:
>
> When the command line is more user friendly than the GUI, this should
> set off those little alarm bells that something needs to be done
> differently.
>

  But I agree, being able to see what command is invoked without having to
  open the menus would be a nice feature!

Cheers,
  --ldl

On Tue, Jun 9, 2009 at 8:55 AM, David MENTRE wrote:
> Hello,
>
> On Tue, Jun 9, 2009 at 16:50, Patrick Goetz wrote:
>> I'm not sure what the answer is at the moment, but a no-brainer
>> choice is to clearly identify WHAT application is being invoked from the
>> menu.
>
> I agree. Displaying a "Document Viewer (evince)" or "Document Viewer /
> evince" would be a big plus.
>
> Sincerely yours,
> david
>
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Re: Properly identifying applications

[David MENTRE]

Hello,

On Tue, Jun 9, 2009 at 16:50, Patrick Goetz wrote:
> I'm not sure what the answer is at the moment, but a no-brainer
> choice is to clearly identify WHAT application is being invoked from the
> menu.

I agree. Displaying a "Document Viewer (evince)" or "Document Viewer /
evince" would be a big plus.

Sincerely yours,
david

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Properly identifying applications

[Patrick Goetz]

It looks like no one responded to the concern raised below.  It makes 
sense to me that all applications should be identified by their name as 
well as their function in gnome GUI menus.  Furthermore, not doing so 
frequently increases confusion for naive users.  For example, due to 
ongoing bugs with the linux acrobat reader postscript rendering engine, 
users frequently come to our office because they couldn't print a pdf 
file.  We tell them to use evince instead of acrobat reader.  They look 
for a program called evince in the menus, and can't find anything.  No 
one knows to look for "Document Viewer" -- in fact, what does this even 
mean?  What kind of documents?  In 9.04 Document Viewer appears to have 
disappeared from the menu, but "Image Viewer" is still there.  The 
default image viewer used to be Eye of Gnome, but this appears to be 
something different  -- since the menu is non-standard, one can't tell 
from the application itself; the only way to find out is to dig through 
/usr/share/applications.

When the command line is more user friendly than the GUI, this should 
set off those little alarm bells that something needs to be done 
differently.

Of course the complication in the linux world is the plethora of choices 
which exist for each application type, especially on larger networks 
like ours where users are strongly opinionated about which {editor, 
compiler, pdf viewer, image viewer, browser, etc.} is the best one and 
must be installed.  How to create a manageable user experience for the 
less knowledgeable user in the presence of dozens of choices for each 
task?  I'm not sure what the answer is at the moment, but a no-brainer 
choice is to clearly identify WHAT application is being invoked from the 
menu.


> Date: Sat, 6 Jun 2009 13:41:43 +0100
> From: Peter Berry 
> Subject: Using functional descriptions for default applications' menu
>   entries
> To: ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com
> 
> Bug 105685 (https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/totem/+bug/105685)
> was recently rejected again, on the grounds that "it's not a bug",
> despite apparent consensus (from my and another's admittedly biased
> perspective) that it is. See previous thread:
> http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.linux.ubuntu.devel.discuss/1101
> 
> I have four media players installed: MPlayer, Xine, Totem and VLC. I
> find all of them wanting from time to time and if one doesn't work,
> it's useful to be able to try another. So on my system clearly "Movie
> Player" is ambiguous and makes it more difficult to find Totem. (It's
> also an Americanism and imprecise since it also plays pure audio - IMO
> "video player" or "media player" would be better.) I also find it
> galling that GNOME devs apparently think it is OK to say Movie Player
> = Totem, as if nothing else in the world deserved the name.
> 

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Re: shameful censoring of mono opposition

[Mark Fink]

On Tue, Jun 9, 2009 at 12:03 AM, John McCabe-Dansted wrote:
> 2009/6/9 Derek Broughton 
>>
>> Sorry, but no.  You are pretending to have a rational discussion, while
>> dismissing perfectly valid arguments.
>>
>> > The codecs are
>> > not-in-Ubuntu the same way as Wine, because they are not installed,
>>
>> No, they are not.  The codecs are NOT in Ubuntu at all.  Show me where
>> they
>> exist in the repositories.  Wine is in the repos.
>
> I don't have strong feelings about Mono, but the OP suggests:
>
> "The solution seems obvious and easy: don’t make Mono or Mono apps
> part of the default install. Leave them in the repos for the users who
> want them..."
>
> Sounds much like the current policy of Restricted drivers. So from the POV
> of the OP "getting rid of mono" means removing it from the default install.
> A number of people have interpreted it to mean removing it from the repos,
> but doesn't appear to be what the OP wants, indeed AFAICT noone here has
> /specifically/ suggested removing Mono from the repos.

it would be better if it was removed from the repos too, but ubuntu
would get back some of its respect if it at least removed MONO from
the default install like Fedora is doing.

>
> To put things in perspective, mono requires 15MiB in .deb form and 44MiB
> installed. Thats about 2% of the space on the CD. If, hypothetically, Ubuntu
> was prevented from distributing wine, at least we wouldn't have to rebuild
> 'stable' CD-images.

that's a LOT of bloat

also programs like Gnote are GPL3 so you are protected from patents

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Re: a recent maxima / wxmaxima version

[Stefan Lesicnik]

On Mon, Jun 8, 2009 at 5:47 PM, Nagy Viktor  wrote:

> hi,
>
> I would like to see a recent maxima/wxmaxima version to be added to a
> (still open) repo
>
> the latest maxima version is 5.17: http://maxima.sourceforge.net/
> the latest in ANY of the repos is 5.13
> http://packages.ubuntu.com/search?keywords=maxima
> the Debian package of 5.17 installs and runs fine:
> http://packages.debian.org/sid/maxima
>
> my favourite GUI wxmaxima has plenty of improvements that need maxima at
> least 5.17: http://wxmaxima.sourceforge.net/
> there are wxmaxima versions available for maxima 5.17 on
> http://zeus.nyf.hu/~blahota/linux/ 
> * the version (0.8.2) for ubuntu 9.04 does not run on my hardy with 5.17
> maxima from debian
> * the version (0.8.1) for ubuntu 8.10 DOES RUN  on my hardy with 5.17
> maxima from debian
>
> Thus I would like to see an ubuntu version of maxima 5.17 in Jaunty or
> Karmic (the earliest possible) and a corresponding wxmaxima (0.8.1 or 0.8.2)
> as well.
> After that I'll be happy to help its backporting to hardy.
>

There is a merge for this and a bug open re. a segfault during the build.

https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/maxima/+bug/296643


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Re: shameful censoring of mono opposition

[Paige Thompson]

You're welcome David, anytime you want to set yourself up for that go for
it. I can't promise I'll be here to hand your ass to you after you've so
carelessly lost track of it, unfortunately.


On Mon, Jun 8, 2009 at 10:36 PM, David Schlesinger <
david.schlesin...@access-company.com> wrote:

> I want to thank Paige for taking advantage of my "out of the office"
> advisory to share her generally childish behavior with my manager, off-list.
> We had a good laugh over that one, thanks. No jobs available for you right
> now, Paige, sorry, but feel free to send a resume when you get to be eleven
> or so, hm?
>
> __Sent from my Steve-Phone
>
> On Jun 9, 2009, at 6:26, "Paige Thompson"  wrote:
>
> well _sir_, I just cant help _but_ notice _that_ you are all_acting
> douchebags--_and_ I thought _I_ might _make_ that obser_vation_.
>
> On Mon, Jun 8, 2009 at 2:22 PM, David Schlesinger 
> <
> david.schlesin...@access-company.com> wrote:
>
>>  > Someone from Access chimed in on this one, glad he's getting paid to
>> dick
>> > around like this.
>>
>> Er, _what_? I'm afraid I'm unable to work out the relevance of this
>> comment to that message.
>>
>> Not to put too fine a point on it, I'm actually still on sabbatical this
>> week, so to be technical, I'm getting paid to _relax_. Watching my inbox
>> filling up with the same nonsensical "Mono is a Microsoft plot to take over
>> Linux, and Miguel and the gang are actually undercover shills for Steve
>> Ballmer" flamewar, instigated yet _again_ on this list by Mark Fink, is
>> harshing my mellow...
>>
>> Personally, I think you have to bend over backwards to suggest that Miguel
>> (and the rest of the folks) have not contributed _immeasurably_ over the
>> years to free software.
>>
>> As for Mono apps, as a photographer, I like F-Stop and I use it. Nautilus
>> might work for some folks, but with literally hundred and thousands of
>> photos to sort through, that won't work for me. If someone wants to come up
>> with a credible non-Mono replacement for that, and _then_ argue that F-Stop
>> should be removed, fine. But please don't tell me, in effect, that I should
>> use LaTex instead of Open Office to do all my documents because a) OO can
>> save things in MS Word format, and that's evil, or patented, or something,
>> and b) that LaTex works fine for _you_...
>>
>> The solution I see here is that Mark Fink and Remco and others who feel
>> similarly find some other distribution more to their tastes than Ubuntu. And
>> if Mark Shuttleworth wants or doesn't want something in Ubuntu, he's more
>> than capable of saying so, he doesn't need folks attempting to channel him
>> here...
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Paige Adele Thompson
> Mobile: 206-446-630
> E-mail/GTalk: erra...@devel.ws
>
>


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Re: shameful censoring of mono opposition

[Vincenzo Ciancia]

Il giorno lun, 08/06/2009 alle 20.50 -0300, Derek Broughton ha scritto:
> 
> That's not an argument, it's a complete misdirection.  Are you really
> just 
> fink using different nym?
> 

Professional trolling here at work. Do the communist have to do with the
plan? Just to know on what side I want to be :)

V.


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Re: On apturls and repositories

[Christopher Chan]

Derek Broughton wrote:
> Vincenzo Ciancia wrote:
>
>   
>> Il giorno sab, 06/06/2009 alle 23.55 -0400, Martin Owens ha scritto:
>> 
>>> Is it? I didn't think is was the port that defined the protocol but
>>> the
>>> nature of the messages sent over the connection. The port is a default
>>> but not a requirement, like ssh or ftp.
>>>   
>
> For heaven's sake, I presented the evidence.  Split hairs if you must.  The 
> simple fact is that many keyservers support requests on port 80, and 
> keyserver.ubuntu.com doesn't for reasons that can make no technical sense.
>   
Ah, that is to make things challenging to push out Ubuntu in business 
environments just like how the Kubuntu team decided to pull the rug on 
KDE3.5.x after Hardy. Oh wait, Ubuntu is for home users only right?


Sorry, could not resist. I cannot help but notice that it appears many 
Ubuntu/Kubuntu users seem to not understand what is going on with 
Ubuntu/Kubuntu.

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