Re: shameful censoring of mono opposition
Christopher Chan wrote: These are about 'standards'. Can there really be a technical argument between using say the metric system versus the foot/yard or the ounce/pound? Yes: 1) state your technical requirements 2) state the relevant properties of each standard 3) argue about which properties best match which requirements 4) profit For example: 1) I want a system of measurements that: * minimises the amount of learning necessary in schools * is controlled by an international body which represents my interests * allows easy comparisons between different quantities 2) Imperial units: * Older people know Imperial, they can spend the time to teach kids * Kids who have learnt from (grand)parents needn't learn in school * Imperial uses multiple words per unit (inch, foot, yard) * Imperial is controlled by the British government * Imperial is widely use in places that won't go away (e.g. roads) * Older people will never know anything but imperial * You can't make comparisons unless you know what the quantities mean Metric units: * Metric only requires knowledge of base 10, except to count time * Kids already need to learn base 10, and to count time * Metric uses a single word per unit (metre, litre) * Metric is controlled by SI * Because it uses base 10, metric is very easy to compare 3) If we started over from scratch, the benefits of imperial would be moot. But we're not, so moving away from imperial would cause 50+ years of difficulty comparing quantities. But if the move to metric is successfully completed, we'll have hundreds or thousands of years of upside. 4) Being an optimist about how much time we've got on this planet, I vote metric. Intelligent people may disagree, especially if they have different requirements. I respect those that disagree, and accept that the requirements I've laid out do not necessarily reflect the requirements of the Ubuntu project. Contentious issues can be argued civilly, you just need to be a bit careful about it. When discussing topics that can get religious, please consider a premise-reasoning-conclusion model like the above. - Andrew -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: On apturls and repositories
Derek Broughton wrote: Vincenzo Ciancia wrote: Il giorno sab, 06/06/2009 alle 23.55 -0400, Martin Owens ha scritto: Is it? I didn't think is was the port that defined the protocol but the nature of the messages sent over the connection. The port is a default but not a requirement, like ssh or ftp. For heaven's sake, I presented the evidence. Split hairs if you must. The simple fact is that many keyservers support requests on port 80, and keyserver.ubuntu.com doesn't for reasons that can make no technical sense. Ah, that is to make things challenging to push out Ubuntu in business environments just like how the Kubuntu team decided to pull the rug on KDE3.5.x after Hardy. Oh wait, Ubuntu is for home users only right? Sorry, could not resist. I cannot help but notice that it appears many Ubuntu/Kubuntu users seem to not understand what is going on with Ubuntu/Kubuntu. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: shameful censoring of mono opposition
Il giorno lun, 08/06/2009 alle 20.50 -0300, Derek Broughton ha scritto: That's not an argument, it's a complete misdirection. Are you really just fink using different nym? Professional trolling here at work. Do the communist have to do with the plan? Just to know on what side I want to be :) V. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: shameful censoring of mono opposition
You're welcome David, anytime you want to set yourself up for that go for it. I can't promise I'll be here to hand your ass to you after you've so carelessly lost track of it, unfortunately. On Mon, Jun 8, 2009 at 10:36 PM, David Schlesinger david.schlesin...@access-company.com wrote: I want to thank Paige for taking advantage of my out of the office advisory to share her generally childish behavior with my manager, off-list. We had a good laugh over that one, thanks. No jobs available for you right now, Paige, sorry, but feel free to send a resume when you get to be eleven or so, hm? __Sent from my Steve-Phone On Jun 9, 2009, at 6:26, Paige Thompson erra...@devel.ws wrote: well _sir_, I just cant help _but_ notice _that_ you are all_acting douchebags--_and_ I thought _I_ might _make_ that obser_vation_. On Mon, Jun 8, 2009 at 2:22 PM, David Schlesinger david.schlesin...@access-company.com david.schlesin...@access-company.com wrote: Someone from Access chimed in on this one, glad he's getting paid to dick around like this. Er, _what_? I'm afraid I'm unable to work out the relevance of this comment to that message. Not to put too fine a point on it, I'm actually still on sabbatical this week, so to be technical, I'm getting paid to _relax_. Watching my inbox filling up with the same nonsensical Mono is a Microsoft plot to take over Linux, and Miguel and the gang are actually undercover shills for Steve Ballmer flamewar, instigated yet _again_ on this list by Mark Fink, is harshing my mellow... Personally, I think you have to bend over backwards to suggest that Miguel (and the rest of the folks) have not contributed _immeasurably_ over the years to free software. As for Mono apps, as a photographer, I like F-Stop and I use it. Nautilus might work for some folks, but with literally hundred and thousands of photos to sort through, that won't work for me. If someone wants to come up with a credible non-Mono replacement for that, and _then_ argue that F-Stop should be removed, fine. But please don't tell me, in effect, that I should use LaTex instead of Open Office to do all my documents because a) OO can save things in MS Word format, and that's evil, or patented, or something, and b) that LaTex works fine for _you_... The solution I see here is that Mark Fink and Remco and others who feel similarly find some other distribution more to their tastes than Ubuntu. And if Mark Shuttleworth wants or doesn't want something in Ubuntu, he's more than capable of saying so, he doesn't need folks attempting to channel him here... -- Paige Adele Thompson Mobile: 206-446-630 E-mail/GTalk: erra...@devel.wserra...@devel.ws -- Paige Adele Thompson Mobile: 206-446-630 E-mail/GTalk: erra...@devel.ws -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: a recent maxima / wxmaxima version
On Mon, Jun 8, 2009 at 5:47 PM, Nagy Viktor viktor.n...@gmail.com wrote: hi, I would like to see a recent maxima/wxmaxima version to be added to a (still open) repo the latest maxima version is 5.17: http://maxima.sourceforge.net/ the latest in ANY of the repos is 5.13 http://packages.ubuntu.com/search?keywords=maxima the Debian package of 5.17 installs and runs fine: http://packages.debian.org/sid/maxima my favourite GUI wxmaxima has plenty of improvements that need maxima at least 5.17: http://wxmaxima.sourceforge.net/ there are wxmaxima versions available for maxima 5.17 on http://zeus.nyf.hu/~blahota/linux/ http://zeus.nyf.hu/%7Eblahota/linux/ * the version (0.8.2) for ubuntu 9.04 does not run on my hardy with 5.17 maxima from debian * the version (0.8.1) for ubuntu 8.10 DOES RUN on my hardy with 5.17 maxima from debian Thus I would like to see an ubuntu version of maxima 5.17 in Jaunty or Karmic (the earliest possible) and a corresponding wxmaxima (0.8.1 or 0.8.2) as well. After that I'll be happy to help its backporting to hardy. There is a merge for this and a bug open re. a segfault during the build. https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/maxima/+bug/296643 Stefan -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Properly identifying applications
It looks like no one responded to the concern raised below. It makes
sense to me that all applications should be identified by their name as
well as their function in gnome GUI menus. Furthermore, not doing so
frequently increases confusion for naive users. For example, due to
ongoing bugs with the linux acrobat reader postscript rendering engine,
users frequently come to our office because they couldn't print a pdf
file. We tell them to use evince instead of acrobat reader. They look
for a program called evince in the menus, and can't find anything. No
one knows to look for Document Viewer -- in fact, what does this even
mean? What kind of documents? In 9.04 Document Viewer appears to have
disappeared from the menu, but Image Viewer is still there. The
default image viewer used to be Eye of Gnome, but this appears to be
something different -- since the menu is non-standard, one can't tell
from the application itself; the only way to find out is to dig through
/usr/share/applications.
When the command line is more user friendly than the GUI, this should
set off those little alarm bells that something needs to be done
differently.
Of course the complication in the linux world is the plethora of choices
which exist for each application type, especially on larger networks
like ours where users are strongly opinionated about which {editor,
compiler, pdf viewer, image viewer, browser, etc.} is the best one and
must be installed. How to create a manageable user experience for the
less knowledgeable user in the presence of dozens of choices for each
task? I'm not sure what the answer is at the moment, but a no-brainer
choice is to clearly identify WHAT application is being invoked from the
menu.
Date: Sat, 6 Jun 2009 13:41:43 +0100
From: Peter Berry pwbe...@gmail.com
Subject: Using functional descriptions for default applications' menu
entries
To: ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com
Bug 105685 (https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/totem/+bug/105685)
was recently rejected again, on the grounds that it's not a bug,
despite apparent consensus (from my and another's admittedly biased
perspective) that it is. See previous thread:
http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.linux.ubuntu.devel.discuss/1101
I have four media players installed: MPlayer, Xine, Totem and VLC. I
find all of them wanting from time to time and if one doesn't work,
it's useful to be able to try another. So on my system clearly Movie
Player is ambiguous and makes it more difficult to find Totem. (It's
also an Americanism and imprecise since it also plays pure audio - IMO
video player or media player would be better.) I also find it
galling that GNOME devs apparently think it is OK to say Movie Player
= Totem, as if nothing else in the world deserved the name.
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Re: Properly identifying applications
Hello, On Tue, Jun 9, 2009 at 16:50, Patrick Goetzpgo...@mail.utexas.edu wrote: I'm not sure what the answer is at the moment, but a no-brainer choice is to clearly identify WHAT application is being invoked from the menu. I agree. Displaying a Document Viewer (evince) or Document Viewer / evince would be a big plus. Sincerely yours, david -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Properly identifying applications
Patrick, What a great line!!! Umm... shoot the GUI?? (my command-line response). Thanks for the smile. On Tue, Jun 9, 2009 at 8:50 AM, Patrick Goetzpgo...@mail.utexas.edu wrote: When the command line is more user friendly than the GUI, this should set off those little alarm bells that something needs to be done differently. But I agree, being able to see what command is invoked without having to open the menus would be a nice feature! Cheers, --ldl On Tue, Jun 9, 2009 at 8:55 AM, David MENTREdmen...@linux-france.org wrote: Hello, On Tue, Jun 9, 2009 at 16:50, Patrick Goetzpgo...@mail.utexas.edu wrote: I'm not sure what the answer is at the moment, but a no-brainer choice is to clearly identify WHAT application is being invoked from the menu. I agree. Displaying a Document Viewer (evince) or Document Viewer / evince would be a big plus. Sincerely yours, david -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss -- --- NOTE: If it is important CALL ME - I may miss email, which I do NOT normally check on weekends nor on a regular basis during any other day. --- LD Landis - N0YRQ - de la tierra del encanto 3960 Schooner Loop, Las Cruces, NM 88012 651/340-4007 N32 21'48.28 W106 46'5.80 “If a thing is worth doing, it is worth doing badly.” –GK Chesterton. An interpretation: For things worth doing: Doing them, even if badly, is better than doing nothing perfectly (on them). but I trust my family jewels only to Linux. -- DE Knuth (http://www.informit.com/articles/article.aspx?p=1193856) Funny Quote of the Day - Douglas Adams - I love deadlines. I like the whooshing sound they make as they fly by. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
devel-dicuss: the list itself, and mono
Given that my signal to noise ratio is already at a white noise breaking point (and that I'm probably not alone here), can we please keep these kinds of tit-for-tat arguments, rhetoric, ad hominem attacks, and flirting off the devel-discuss list? Surely facebook, twitter, digg, etc. should provide adequate bandwidth to meet these needs. Thanks in advance for your cooperation in this matter. Re: the shame of mono: if you really want to defeat the Evil Empire, then stop wasting everyone's time posting about how terrible it is and get busy designing and/or working on an open source framework that can get the job done as well or better. That's how things work around here, as should be clear from a decade or so of linux development. Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 00:31:36 -0700 From: Paige Thompson erra...@devel.ws Subject: Re: shameful censoring of mono opposition To: David Schlesinger david.schlesin...@access-company.com Cc: ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com,Derek Broughton de...@pointerstop.ca Message-ID: 5061b39c0906090031h46704f19s5c74e1f1b3ae0...@mail.gmail.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 You're welcome David, anytime you want to set yourself up for that go for it. I can't promise I'll be here to hand your ass to you after you've so carelessly lost track of it, unfortunately. On Mon, Jun 8, 2009 at 10:36 PM, David Schlesinger david.schlesin...@access-company.com wrote: I want to thank Paige for taking advantage of my out of the office advisory to share her generally childish behavior with my manager, off-list. We had a good laugh over that one, thanks. No jobs available for you right now, Paige, sorry, but feel free to send a resume when you get to be eleven or so, hm? -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Properly identifying applications
On Tue, Jun 09, 2009 at 09:50:26AM -0500, Patrick Goetz wrote:
It makes sense to me that all applications should be identified by
their name as well as their function in gnome GUI menus.
I disagree. I /love/ the fact that our menu's aren't full of meaningless
names of applications. In fact, Gimp's and f-spot's menu entries annoy
me *a lot*.
Furthermore, not doing so frequently increases confusion for naive
users.
You think Evince is more helpful than Document Viewer? How so?
For example, due to ongoing bugs with the linux acrobat reader
postscript rendering engine, users frequently come to our office
because they couldn't print a pdf file. We tell them to use evince
instead of acrobat reader. They look for a program called evince in
the menus, and can't find anything.
Couldn't this be easily resolved by you telling them to use Document
Viewer rather than telling them to use Evince?
No one knows to look for Document Viewer
If you put yourself in the place of someone who is not used to Linux:
You have a document you want to open (and for some reason you don't just
click on it in Nautilus, but let's ignore that for a little bit). How
are you supposed to know to look for something called Evince? How is
having that name in the menu going to be helpful?
Of course the complication in the linux world is the plethora of
choices which exist for each application type, especially on larger
networks like ours where users are strongly opinionated about which
{editor, compiler, pdf viewer, image viewer, browser, etc.} is the
best one and must be installed. How to create a manageable user
experience for the less knowledgeable user in the presence of dozens
of choices for each task? I'm not sure what the answer is at the
moment, but a no-brainer choice is to clearly identify WHAT
application is being invoked from the menu.
I couldn't disagree more. The no-brainer choice it exactly to NOT show
which application is being invoked. What's important is the task it
performs, not what it's called. If the user needs to know the name of
the application he's using to do something, we're doing something wrong.
To view documents, you use a document viewer. If we change the default
document viewer at some point, the user's experience shouldn't change.
They shouldn't have to know that we've replaced Evince with
FooPDFViewer. They should just keep using Document Viewer and have the
best possible experience.
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Lead Virtualisation Engineer | Ubuntu Server Team
Canonical Ltd. | http://www.ubuntu.com/
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Re: Properly identifying applications
Hello Soren, On Tue, Jun 9, 2009 at 17:45, Soren Hansenso...@ubuntu.com wrote: You think Evince is more helpful than Document Viewer? How so? I personally think we should keep both, e.g. Document Viewer (Evince). Why not have an inclusive view instead of an exclusive one? The exact instantiation could vary, for example it could be a tooltip displayed with the menu item. Is having (Evince) in the menu item so confusing for the user? (honest question, studies might have shown that, I don't know) [...] To view documents, you use a document viewer. If we change the default document viewer at some point, the user's experience shouldn't change. They shouldn't have to know that we've replaced Evince with FooPDFViewer. They should just keep using Document Viewer and have the best possible experience. This seems to me a bit theory vs. practice argument. I agree that for the casual user, he does not care if the document viewer is Evince or FooPDFViewer. However, for a more experienced user that has started to install new applications (e.g. FooPDFViewer), this is important. The application *is* different in some way (even in ABrowser/Firefix case). The user knows that he has installed the application but he does not know how to reach it, i.e. find the proper menu item. Moreover, it could be useful in other contexts. For example, I already had issues with some Ubuntu administration applications but could not report a bug against the correct package because I could not know its name. Anyway, do as you feel it. I just wanted to add another user feedback to Patrick and Peter ones. I personally think their remarks deserve some thinking. Yours, david -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: shameful censoring of mono opposition
Scott James Remnant wrote: Why should Ubuntu actively prevent a developer from writing software in C# if they wish? That software may not even be intended to be shipped in Ubuntu, what if they want to use Ubuntu as the basis for an application that happens to be written in C#? Do you seriously believe we shouldn't allow this? For that reason, I actively and passionately disagree with any argument that a C# Development environment such as Mono should not be provided for Ubuntu. Although I've uttered scepticism towards Mono before, I actually agree with that. I know of at least one example where a incarnated .NET programmer discovered that he could port his work easily to Linux and do his work there, and make his program available on the lab Linux workstations. On the patent concerns, the only thing I'd say is that patents are inherently uninteresting unless they are being enforced by their holders. Since Microsoft are not currently enforcing any C#-related patents--indeed is it even known whether they hold any?--that doesn't appear to be a concern. The main fear wrt to Mono is that IF Ubuntu and other distributions came to rely on killer apps programmed in C#, we'd be extremely vulnerable to the kind of FUD Microsoft has a history of spreading. In fact, just threatening with repercussions against users of the distro might be enough to scare corporate and business users away. If I were Balmer, that's what I'd do; why risk losing a patent case when you can use FUD forever with the same result? On the other hand, we should be careful not destroying our community with hateful flamewars, and creating divisions where there are none. So let's not create a problem before it actually arises. We really must believe in the strength of the FOSS community. If Microsoft indeed did pursue a patent case, the FOSS community would be able to work around it quicker than they can say pay us. Let's not succumb to fear. All of us are believers of freedom. Consequently, we cannot censor packages that otherwise fulfil the DFSG. What will be the next thing then? Banning Firefox because it has an icon of a fox twisting in agony with its tail on fire? If users want to use Mono packages, they should be free to do so. If users don't want them, they can install the mononono package [1] to help keep them off their system. Cheers, Morten [1] http://tim.thechases.com/mononono/ -- Morten Kjeldgaard m...@ubuntu.com Ubuntu MOTU Developer GPG Key ID: 404825E7 -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Reproducible w3m bug
Olá Sitsofe e a todos. On Friday 15 May 2009 12:14:31 Sitsofe Wheeler wrote: That's reasonable too but w3m is installed by default and if it's used by so few perhaps it shouldn't be there by default - it strikes me as unsafe to be putting packages that can't be supported on people's systems out of the box. Wouldn't it be better to migrate to products that were actively maintained? Your comment clearly stands for rrootage though. That remind me of another thing: Should package that are in Universe and unmaintained[1] show that in Launchpad and _suggest_ the user to upstream them? I understand that _not_ all user will know/want to do that, but at least it would allow more experienced bug filling users to be more alerted to this problems. A LP team could be created and members of such team could then see this extra info directly on the bug filling page, that way, regular users would be undisturbed by this extra info. What do you guys think? [1] I know that identifying unmaintained packages is not easy, specially since any one (coredev, MOTU, etc) can at any given time start to work on those packages. Maybe it could be done by a ratio of number of bugs and triaged ones ? -- Hi, I'm BUGabundo, and I am Ubuntu (whyubuntu.com) (``-_-´´) http://LinuxNoDEI.BUGabundo.net Linux user #443786GPG key 1024D/A1784EBB http://BUGabundo.net signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: shameful censoring of mono opposition
I want to thank Paige for taking advantage of my out of the office advisory to share her generally childish behavior with my manager, off- list. We had a good laugh over that one, thanks. No jobs available for you right now, Paige, sorry, but feel free to send a resume when you get to be eleven or so, hm? __ Sent from my Steve-Phone On Jun 9, 2009, at 6:26, Paige Thompson erra...@devel.ws wrote: well _sir_, I just cant help _but_ notice _that_ you are all_acting douchebags--_and_ I thought _I_ might _make_ that obser_vation_. On Mon, Jun 8, 2009 at 2:22 PM, David Schlesinger david.schlesin...@access-company.com wrote: Someone from Access chimed in on this one, glad he's getting paid to dick around like this. Er, _what_? I'm afraid I'm unable to work out the relevance of this comment to that message. Not to put too fine a point on it, I'm actually still on sabbatical this week, so to be technical, I'm getting paid to _relax_. Watching my inbox filling up with the same nonsensical Mono is a Microsoft plot to take over Linux, and Miguel and the gang are actually undercover shills for Steve Ballmer flamewar, instigated yet _again_ on this list by Mark Fink, is harshing my mellow... Personally, I think you have to bend over backwards to suggest that Miguel (and the rest of the folks) have not contributed _immeasurably_ over the years to free software. As for Mono apps, as a photographer, I like F-Stop and I use it. Nautilus might work for some folks, but with literally hundred and thousands of photos to sort through, that won't work for me. If someone wants to come up with a credible non-Mono replacement for that, and _then_ argue that F-Stop should be removed, fine. But please don't tell me, in effect, that I should use LaTex instead of Open Office to do all my documents because a) OO can save things in MS Word format, and that's evil, or patented, or something, and b) that LaTex works fine for _you_... The solution I see here is that Mark Fink and Remco and others who feel similarly find some other distribution more to their tastes than Ubuntu. And if Mark Shuttleworth wants or doesn't want something in Ubuntu, he's more than capable of saying so, he doesn't need folks attempting to channel him here... -- Paige Adele Thompson Mobile: 206-446-630 E-mail/GTalk: erra...@devel.ws -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Properly identifying applications
On Tue, Jun 9, 2009 at 8:45 AM, Soren Hansenso...@ubuntu.com wrote:
On Tue, Jun 09, 2009 at 09:50:26AM -0500, Patrick Goetz wrote:
snip
No one knows to look for Document Viewer
If you put yourself in the place of someone who is not used to Linux:
You have a document you want to open (and for some reason you don't just
click on it in Nautilus, but let's ignore that for a little bit). How
are you supposed to know to look for something called Evince? How is
having that name in the menu going to be helpful?
It is useful if you know that that is the name of the app/package.
While I totally agree that for new users Evince gives no idea as to
the function of the app, it's pretty much equally difficult for people
who know the name but can't remember what the task name is. For
instance, with Gnome-do I have to know what the name of the app is as
it's written in the menu. I have to remember what the silly name for
evince is. I personally expect it to have PDF in the name and always
forget Document so I end up having to hunt in the menu to find what
the thing is called. Have you ever tried to open Seahorse via
Gnome-do? What I personally like to see is how F-spot and GIMP do it
where it's listed as name task like F-spot Photo Manager. It helps
experienced users like me find what I want, helps inexperienced
users know what apps do, and helps them if they need to know the name
in the future (say getting support or filing bugs).
Of course the complication in the linux world is the plethora of
choices which exist for each application type, especially on larger
networks like ours where users are strongly opinionated about which
{editor, compiler, pdf viewer, image viewer, browser, etc.} is the
best one and must be installed. How to create a manageable user
experience for the less knowledgeable user in the presence of dozens
of choices for each task? I'm not sure what the answer is at the
moment, but a no-brainer choice is to clearly identify WHAT
application is being invoked from the menu.
I couldn't disagree more. The no-brainer choice it exactly to NOT show
which application is being invoked. What's important is the task it
performs, not what it's called. If the user needs to know the name of
the application he's using to do something, we're doing something wrong.
To view documents, you use a document viewer. If we change the default
document viewer at some point, the user's experience shouldn't change.
They shouldn't have to know that we've replaced Evince with
FooPDFViewer. They should just keep using Document Viewer and have the
best possible experience.
I can see where you're coming from, but do you really think that it
doesn't matter to people if the default app for a task changes? I
mean, I guess in an ideal world one shouldn't have to worry about the
name of the app they are using but for right now it very much does. If
I call up my university help desk and say I need help with how my web
browser acts with their site the first thing they ask me is what
browser I'm using. If all I can say is in Ubuntu it just says Web
Browser I'm not going to get very far.
Additionally, people aren't stupid, it's possible for them to learn
app names and I don't know that we need to treat them as if the actual
name of the app their using is over their heads. The important point
is that they shouldn't be left with *just* an app name in a menu as it
lacks almost all context (I know this Pidgin thing has something to
do with the Internet but I have no idea what it does).
-Jordan
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Re: GRUB 2 now default for new installations
On Mon, Jun 8, 2009 at 11:45 PM, André Pirarda.pir...@ulg.ac.be wrote: Similarly, the swap partition should be a Linux file. This frees the user from swap considerations and opens Linux to dynamic swap size. There was a blueprint to discuss at UDS: https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/foundations-karmic-swapfile At this time it has no updates. -- BUGabundo :o) (``-_-´´) Linux user #443786GPG key 1024D/A1784EBB -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: shameful censoring of mono opposition
Il giorno mar, 09/06/2009 alle 09.48 -0400, Mark Fink ha scritto: that's a LOT of bloat also programs like Gnote are GPL3 so you are protected from patents Come on this is the only fair criticism that I have seen until now; I think we still don't ship timidity fonts and have broken midi because of space on the cd, now I don't know how many standard ubuntu users really need tomboy and f-spot in the default install but certainly half of the ubuntuers I know don't use those. V. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: shameful censoring of mono opposition
Il giorno mar, 09/06/2009 alle 12.14 -0400, Christopher Olah ha scritto: It appears to me that the most important point has been forgotten: the accusations of censorship. This, if true, is very alarming... We can bicker over Mono all we like, but if people are being censored, like the OP suggests, something is _very_ wrong. Ubuntu is a centralised entity. No external person can control e.g. why we have a custom search in the home page of firefox by default. People who can't tell the difference will keep using a different google, but there is not even way to get some discussion around this (I tried in the past). So if us really feel that this is risky (like it's risky for all centralised organisations, including e.g. google and it's services) then the only alternative is to develop a decentralised linux distribution. If it was easy I'd already have done that :) Otherwise we have to stick with the anyways good level of trust that we have on the ubuntu entity. V. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Properly identifying applications
Il giorno mar, 09/06/2009 alle 16.55 +0200, David MENTRE ha scritto: I agree. Displaying a Document Viewer (evince) or Document Viewer / evince would be a big plus. Yes also because this is needed when talking to ordinary non-technical users e.g. my mother on the phone I could not see the pictures - what program did you use? the picture viewer of course, do you think I am stupid? :) V. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: shameful censoring of mono opposition
Ubuntu is a centralised entity. No external person can control e.g. why we have a custom search in the home page of firefox by default. People who can't tell the difference will keep using a different google, but there is not even way to get some discussion around this (I tried in the past). So if us really feel that this is risky (like it's risky for all centralised organisations, including e.g. google and it's services) then the only alternative is to develop a decentralised linux distribution. The fact that censorship is an intrinsic risk to any centralized Linux distro doesn't make it any more appropriate. If censorship is occurring, it needs to stop. Still, the idea of a decentralized Linux distro is cool. You could have it work on a Web Of Trust It sort of reminds me of Linus Torvalds Google Talk on Git: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4XpnKHJAok8 If it was easy I'd already have done that :) Otherwise we have to stick with the anyways good level of trust that we have on the ubuntu entity. And with that trust comes scrutiny. Christopher PS. Sorry, Vincenzo, for the double copies. I forgot to reply to all the first time... -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: GRUB 2 now default for new installations
On 06/08/2009 05:45 PM, André Pirard wrote: On 2009-06-08 23:32, Colin Watson wrote : As of tomorrow's daily builds (assuming they build successfully, anyway), GRUB 2 will be the default boot loader for new installations, pursuant to the grub2-as-default discussion at UDS. GRUB should be in its own partition, tentatively containing repair tools too. This makes Ubuntu or any Linux undestroyable by Windows or anyone. Restoring GRU/Ubuntu would be a most standard setting of a boot flag. Similarly, the swap partition should be a Linux file. See http://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/foundations-karmic-swapfile This frees the user from swap considerations and opens Linux to dynamic swap size. I once made twin disks and I fell in a trap. I thought Linux would use the only swap partition on the disk. But the swap partition was referenced by UUID. Using both features would make the partition count a statu quo. I, as a Linux sower, find both topics important when I make an installation.* * -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: devel-dicuss: the list itself, and mono
On Tue, Jun 9, 2009 at 11:33 AM, Patrick Goetzpgo...@mail.utexas.edu wrote: Given that my signal to noise ratio is already at a white noise breaking point (and that I'm probably not alone here), can we please keep these kinds of tit-for-tat arguments, rhetoric, ad hominem attacks, and flirting off the devel-discuss list? Surely facebook, twitter, digg, etc. should provide adequate bandwidth to meet these needs. Thanks in advance for your cooperation in this matter. I think the real issue here is that the code of conduct has gone out the window in that conversation. When someone starts emailing people's bosses about them, things have gone a bit too far. I emailed the person who first posted to tell them they were making a mountain out of a mole hill, but it didn't seem to stick. Joe Terranova -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
menu application naming
Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 17:45:56 +0200 From: Soren Hansen so...@ubuntu.com Subject: Re: Properly identifying applications To: ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com If you put yourself in the place of someone who is not used to Linux: You have a document you want to open (and for some reason you don't just click on it in Nautilus, but let's ignore that for a little bit). How are you supposed to know to look for something called Evince? How is having that name in the menu going to be helpful? Sorry, I guess I didn't make my point clearly; I'm not advocating that the menu entry just be Evince but rather something like PDF Document Viewer (Evince) See the KDE4/Kubuntu menus for an example of how this can elegantly be accomplished. I still object to the specific designation Document Viewer as it's simply false: evince foo.doc and evince foo.odt do not work, so this is most definitely NOT a document viewer. You're confusing users by calling it that. (For the technical users who view ps/dvi files, there can be another menu entry called Postscript/DVI Viewer (Evince).) I couldn't disagree more. The no-brainer choice it exactly to NOT show which application is being invoked. What's important is the task it performs, not what it's called. If the user needs to know the name of the application he's using to do something, we're doing something wrong. To view documents, you use a document viewer. If we change the default document viewer at some point, the user's experience shouldn't change. They shouldn't have to know that we've replaced Evince with FooPDFViewer. They should just keep using Document Viewer and have the best possible experience. While this philosophy makes sense when dealing with relatively naive home users, it falls a bit short for power users and institutional (large network) installations. Let's take the case of power users first. All programs have bugs, otherwise your point would be better received. Working in an environment where people are frequently pushing certain kinds of applications to the limit, we're aware of dozens of specific issues in different programs. For example, depending on precisely what a user is trying to do, I will recommend that they use acroread, evince, or xpdf (usually after one or the other has failed at fill out forms, or printing, or properly rendering certain kinds of documents -- in extreme cases, we have to invoke pdftk). Changing the underlying program without letting anyone know is an excellent way to completely annoy power users. The situation with institutional users is even worse. With 300 linux machines, we use an automated installation system to install packages on machines and keep them up to date. Every time we upgrade to a new ubuntu system, we have to first install 1 or 2 machines using the Desktop CD in order to try and figure out what Canonical has decided to change, particularly in the user interface, about which ordinary users are most apt to complain. Forcing me to put on my Sherlock Holmes hat in order to deduce that, say, evince is no longer part of the default distro, is not the way to make new friends. So to repeat: The ideal is a system which is sufficiently friendly for naive users while not unnecessarily impeding the work of power users and administrators. Yes, this is a challenging task, but Microsoft Bob should provide some indication of what happens when you only cater to the former group. :) -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: shameful censoring of mono opposition
On Monday 08 June 2009 5:26:17 pm Paige Thompson wrote: well _sir_, I just cant help _but_ notice _that_ you are all_acting douchebags--_and_ I thought _I_ might _make_ that obser_vation_. Well that wasn't very polite... -- Mackenzie Morgan http://ubuntulinuxtipstricks.blogspot.com apt-get moo signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: GRUB 2 now default for new installations
On Monday 08 June 2009 6:45:20 pm André Pirard wrote: Similarly, the swap partition should be a Linux file. I think this was talked about at UDS as something people wanted to do. -- Mackenzie Morgan http://ubuntulinuxtipstricks.blogspot.com apt-get moo signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Properly identifying applications
I like the idea of App name - function, or Function - app name. Either
way. There are enough hard-to-pronounce app names in the Linux world
that it should be required to list the app function along with the app
name. Even listening to Linux podcasts, there is never any consensus on
how to pronounce various apps, DE's, distros, etc. I also agree about
Evince being mis-labeled as a "document" viewer when in reality it is a
PDF file viewer.
Back to the original poster's comments, I would like Totem Movie Player
to be called just that, rather than Movie Player. Why? Totem has a
Youtube plugin that I often use rather than navigating to youtube.com.
I know Totem does this, but it doesn't say Totem in the menu entry. I
often get Movie Player mixed up with Mplayer, so usually on my
installs, I manually rename Movie Player to Totem Movie Player.
Patrick Goetz wrote:
It looks like no one responded to the concern raised below. It makes
sense to me that all applications should be identified by their name as
well as their function in gnome GUI menus. Furthermore, not doing so
frequently increases confusion for naive users. For example, due to
ongoing bugs with the linux acrobat reader postscript rendering engine,
users frequently come to our office because they couldn't print a pdf
file. We tell them to use evince instead of acrobat reader. They look
for a program called evince in the menus, and can't find anything. No
one knows to look for "Document Viewer" -- in fact, what does this even
mean? What kind of documents? In 9.04 Document Viewer appears to have
disappeared from the menu, but "Image Viewer" is still there. The
default image viewer used to be Eye of Gnome, but this appears to be
something different -- since the menu is non-standard, one can't tell
from the application itself; the only way to find out is to dig through
/usr/share/applications.
When the command line is more user friendly than the GUI, this should
set off those little alarm bells that something needs to be done
differently.
Of course the complication in the linux world is the plethora of choices
which exist for each application type, especially on larger networks
like ours where users are strongly opinionated about which {editor,
compiler, pdf viewer, image viewer, browser, etc.} is the best one and
must be installed. How to create a manageable user experience for the
less knowledgeable user in the presence of dozens of choices for each
task? I'm not sure what the answer is at the moment, but a no-brainer
choice is to clearly identify WHAT application is being invoked from the
menu.
Date: Sat, 6 Jun 2009 13:41:43 +0100
From: Peter Berry pwbe...@gmail.com
Subject: Using functional descriptions for default applications' menu
entries
To: ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com
Bug 105685 (https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/totem/+bug/105685)
was recently rejected again, on the grounds that "it's not a bug",
despite apparent consensus (from my and another's admittedly biased
perspective) that it is. See previous thread:
http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.linux.ubuntu.devel.discuss/1101
I have four media players installed: MPlayer, Xine, Totem and VLC. I
find all of them wanting from time to time and if one doesn't work,
it's useful to be able to try another. So on my system clearly "Movie
Player" is ambiguous and makes it more difficult to find Totem. (It's
also an Americanism and imprecise since it also plays pure audio - IMO
"video player" or "media player" would be better.) I also find it
galling that GNOME devs apparently think it is OK to say Movie Player
= Totem, as if nothing else in the world deserved the name.
--
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Re: GRUB 2 now default for new installations
On Tue, 2009-06-09 at 15:21 -0400, Mackenzie Morgan wrote: On Monday 08 June 2009 6:45:20 pm André Pirard wrote: Similarly, the swap partition should be a Linux file. I think this was talked about at UDS as something people wanted to do. were there discussions about how to manage hibernation? tuxonice and i think uswsusp can write to a swapfile, but i'm not sure that swsusp can do that right now. m -- Matt Price matt.pr...@utoronto.ca -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Whatever happened to...
In the Intrepid cycle, there was something going on where it would add a last good boot option to grub instead of all the old kernels in order to keep the list cleaner and shorter. It was dropped quite close to release because of some unfixed bugs, and seems to have disappeared. Whatever happened to that? Is it still on the table for some future release, or is it dead? In the Jaunty cycle, there was the option to encrypt the users entire home folder with ecryptfs. It too was dropped late due to some unfixed bugs. Is it still on the table for Karmic assuming the bugs get fixed, or is it dead as well? I personally would like to see both of these feature, and I'm curious what happened to them. Evan -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Cron jobs too heavy for ordinary systems (system completely unusable for a while)
Olá Vincenzo e a todos. On Saturday 23 May 2009 12:10:58 Vincenzo Ciancia wrote: I am running jaunty. Sometimes, randomly, the disk starts spinning (I hear the noise and see the light) and the system becomes unusable. Often, to gain control of a shell (even in console) is a matter of waiting minutes and eventually, when I finally can do some top iotop or ps to understand what's happening, the storms is already calmed and I can't see anything. I am not running trackerd on this machine (and with last year of development, it's rarely the culprit). I just notice my system slowing down and disk activity to max. running atop on TTY4 I saw updatedb hamering the disk. Wasnt it supposed to run at something like 2am? its 9pm now. -- Hi, I'm BUGabundo, and I am Ubuntu (whyubuntu.com) (``-_-´´) http://LinuxNoDEI.BUGabundo.net Linux user #443786GPG key 1024D/A1784EBB http://BUGabundo.net signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Cron jobs too heavy for ordinary systems (system completely unusable for a while)
Olá Vincenzo e a todos. On Saturday 23 May 2009 12:26:04 Vincenzo Ciancia wrote: Perhaps this is a bug in the kernel related to suspend. I will investigate again the problem in the following days. After 3 or 4 hibernate/resume cycles my system tends to slow down a lot. So usually i have to reboot after 2 or 3 days. -- Hi, I'm BUGabundo, and I am Ubuntu (whyubuntu.com) (``-_-´´) http://LinuxNoDEI.BUGabundo.net Linux user #443786GPG key 1024D/A1784EBB http://BUGabundo.net signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Jaunty 64-bit and NVIDIA -- Any ideas?
Olá Davyd e a todos. On Monday 25 May 2009 06:59:05 Davyd McColl wrote: What I want to know is: is this common for 64-bit systems (to have dodgy proprietary (ie, NVIDIA / ATI) drivers)? I've been running 64 bits on this laptop (with NVidia FeForce 8400) and the close source driver, since 7.10 up to 9.10a1. I never noticed anything as you describe, other then a few lookups due to bad driver or kernel bug. -- Hi, I'm BUGabundo, and I am Ubuntu (whyubuntu.com) (``-_-´´) http://LinuxNoDEI.BUGabundo.net Linux user #443786GPG key 1024D/A1784EBB http://BUGabundo.net signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Ubuntu Desktop Unit Consistency (LP: #369525)
Olá Chan e a todos. On Wednesday 03 June 2009 15:57:58 Chan Chung Hang Christopher wrote: You have ENTIRE communities of Linux users who have never even heard of kibi/mebi/gibi let alone the IEC. Let me take this a bit out of context: you have entire countries who never heard of FOSS or GNU/Linux. Should that stop us from improving this movement and OS? -- Hi, I'm BUGabundo, and I am Ubuntu (whyubuntu.com) (``-_-´´) http://LinuxNoDEI.BUGabundo.net Linux user #443786GPG key 1024D/A1784EBB http://BUGabundo.net signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Whatever happened to...
+1 Sent via BlackBerry by ATT -Original Message- From: Evan eapa...@gmail.com Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 17:57:04 To: Ubuntu Development Discussion Listubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Subject: Whatever happened to... -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Jaunty 64-bit and NVIDIA -- Any ideas?
On Mon, 2009-05-25 at 07:59 +0200, Davyd McColl wrote: Good day I've used Ubuntu for quite some time (years), following upgrade cycles on 32-bit and staying clear of 64-bit just because a lot of people have reported having a hard time of it. I recently installed 64-bit Jaunty on my laptop (HP Pavillion dv9352 with NVIDIA 7600 go graphics) and it worked so swimmingly that I decided to finally do a clean 64-bit install on my desktop instead of just dist-upgrade'ing to Jaunty as I would have normally done. Things have been good for a while -- but the problems have started as soon as I've required 3D applications to work. It started when I switched from Blank Screen to the BlinkBox screensaver. I came back to my machine to find it locked up after a while. This process was repeatable. Suspecting gnome-screensaver, I uninstalled and installed xscreensaver instead -- no change. And other 3D screensavers (like Bouncing Cow) cause the same issue. When I was playin Diablo II via WINE last night, I got a lockup after about 20 min play. All system temps are well within normal operating ranges -- the hardware doesn't seem to be the problem. ALT-SYSRQ keys still work, so the kernel is still alive. Suspecting graphics, I've downgraded from the 180 driver to the 173 -- same effect. The older 96 (iirc) driver doesn't seem to allow compiz, but does seem to suck just as much -- glxgears brought the system to a standstill, with occassional response from the mouse cursor -- but nothing else. I must also note here that glxgears quite reliably reproduces the system lockup for the 173 and 180 drivers. My next recourse is to try the beta (185) drivers from NVIDIA. I would have already but the download I left going overnight apparently broke somehow: the installer is complaining about a checksum mismatch -- so I'm re-downloading. What I want to know is: is this common for 64-bit systems (to have dodgy proprietary (ie, NVIDIA / ATI) drivers)? I've seen a lot of posts online about similar issues but they range right from Warty days -- has this always been an issue? Should I have rather just stuck with 32-bit? And does anyone know of aything other than trying the beta drivers which I can give a bash? I'm not a hectic gamer, but I do like to play something now and then (doom, quake, diablo, serious sam, etc), and it sucks that I'm unable to use a simple GL screensaver. Any ideas are appreciated. -d Hi, Davyd. I've been playing around with a few different motherboards at work, and have found that some of the ones with built-in 3d accelerated graphics behave oddly when the 3D drivers are installed. (Some of them will exhibit the behavior you've described, even though they're up to spec for running a given application.) That being said, perhaps you could post (or attach) the output of this command? (Omit the '$'--as you probably know, it's part of the command prompt.) $ glxinfo Also, please post or attach your /etc/X11/xorg.conf file, and the output of the command, 'lsmod | grep nvidia'. I'm interested in knowing whether the nVidia driver is actually being used, or if it's installed but disabled for some reason. Do you have Desktop effects (compiz-fusion) enabled? Try turning them off; perhaps the problem lies in compiz, not in the driver. I take it you've gotten all the system updates via the Update Manager? If not, it might be a good thing to do. I may not be a devel, but at least I can help troubleshoot. :-) --Dane Mutters -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: shameful censoring of mono opposition
On Tue, Jun 9, 2009 at 12:14 PM, Christopher Olahchristopherolah...@gmail.com wrote: It appears to me that the most important point has been forgotten: the accusations of censorship. This, if true, is very alarming... We can bicker over Mono all we like, but if people are being censored, like the OP suggests, something is _very_ wrong. this is what happens when you promote MONO boosters to positions of power, they will poison the distro and ban the people who don't mindlessly follow them like sheep to MONO boosters, MONO is a religion: http://nocturn.vsbnet.be/node/142 luckily only stupid people who can't think for themselves fawn over MONO and follow it like a religion. however, this is a threat to all of us because they convince many people to use the trojan horse that is MONO and as you can see on the ubuntuforums they have fooled many many people into thinking MONO is ok but its not obviously some of the forum moderators are novell employees (or people who drink they're koolaid) who are censoring respectable people like neighborlee when they speak of the dangers of MONO this behavior is unacceptable and they need to be kicked out for their bias -- Only by destroying MONO can Linux be saved. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: shameful censoring of mono opposition
On Tue, Jun 9, 2009 at 12:47 PM, David Schlesingerdavid.schlesin...@access-company.com wrote: it would be better if it was removed from the repos too, but ubuntu would get back some of its respect if it at least removed MONO from the default install like Fedora is doing. A few questions: a) Respect from whom, exactly? You? Paige? the Linux community b) Why does this matter? Is someone running a contest for most respected Linux distribution? Are there prizes? no but there are losers like microvell (and ubuntu if it doesn't change) c) Why don't you just go ahead, use Fedora and let Ubuntu proceed to its (in your view) inevitable doom? Wouldn't that free up a lot of your time for more useful things than inciting conversations a which can't really lead to any productive result on mailing lists about distributions you don't respect? I am trying to help A few related observations: a) Respect, if it matters at all, only matter coming from those who are, themselves, worthy of respect. Roy Schestowitz and Richard Stallman say that MONO is poisonware. are they not respectable? b) I'd suggest that if there's any meaningful dimension to respect, it might be measured by the number of people who take the time to actually use a given distro. If that's the case, Ubuntu seems to be more respected than Fedora. ego will get you nowhere c) I can point to plenty of things which Miguel and others have done which seem to me to be deeply worthy of respect from my view, starting with GNOME only because he couldn't get hired by M$ like he wanted and then he goes and creates GNOME while badmouthing KDE and splitting the Linux community. with friends like him, who needs enemies? and working on from there. I can't think of any similarly significant contributions from Mark Fink or from Paige Thompson. Why would I respect your view more than Miguel's? Respect is earned around these parts by doing heavy lifting, not by posting messages to mailing lists. not all of us can be programmers, so we contribute in other ways like advocating. people like me and Roy Schestowitz and others at BN are very important for making people aware of the truth so that M$ can't destroy Linux. I've personally advocated Linux to Fortune 500 companies. what have /you/ done? -- Only by destroying MONO can Linux be saved. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: shameful censoring of mono opposition
On Tue, Jun 9, 2009 at 7:58 PM, David Schlesingerdavid.schlesin...@access-company.com wrote: Mark Fink continues to scribble: luckily only stupid people who can't think for themselves fawn over MONO...some of the forum moderators are novell employees (or people who drink they're koolaid)... Wasn't it you who was complaining not long ago about personal attacks...? I'll refrain from pointing out the general illiteracy of your message, but it's doubtless apparent to anyone for whom English isn't a second language as well as many for whom it is. Maybe you should go start an I HATE MONO!!! mailing list, Mark, where you can dispense your bile without fear of having anyone point out that you're doing nothing to add light here, only heat. no wonder you got reported to your boss, david. you are not very resptful of your users and customers. -- Only by destroying MONO can Linux be saved. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: shameful censoring of mono opposition
On Tue, Jun 9, 2009 at 1:50 PM, Christopher Olahchristopherolah...@gmail.com wrote: Ubuntu is a centralised entity. No external person can control e.g. why we have a custom search in the home page of firefox by default. People who can't tell the difference will keep using a different google, but there is not even way to get some discussion around this (I tried in the past). So if us really feel that this is risky (like it's risky for all centralised organisations, including e.g. google and it's services) then the only alternative is to develop a decentralised linux distribution. The fact that censorship is an intrinsic risk to any centralized Linux distro doesn't make it any more appropriate. If censorship is occurring, it needs to stop. yes it does and the people behind the censorship need to be exposed for what they really are -- Only by destroying MONO can Linux be saved. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: shameful censoring of mono opposition
On Tuesday 09 June 2009 7:56:34 pm Mark Fink wrote: On Tue, Jun 9, 2009 at 12:47 PM, David and working on from there. I can't think of any similarly significant contributions from Mark Fink or from Paige Thompson. Why would I respect your view more than Miguel's? Respect is earned around these parts by doing heavy lifting, not by posting messages to mailing lists. not all of us can be programmers, so we contribute in other ways like advocating. There is no can't; there is only won't even bother to try. Spend as much time learning Python as you've spent arguing here and insulting us all, and you'd be pretty far along by now. people like me and Roy Schestowitz and others at BN are very important for making people aware of the truth so that M$ can't destroy Linux. If Linux is to succeed, it will do so with or without Microsoft technologies. -- Mackenzie Morgan http://ubuntulinuxtipstricks.blogspot.com apt-get moo signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Ubuntu Desktop Unit Consistency (LP: #369525)
(``-_-´´) -- BUGabundo wrote: Olá Chan e a todos. On Wednesday 03 June 2009 15:57:58 Chan Chung Hang Christopher wrote: You have ENTIRE communities of Linux users who have never even heard of kibi/mebi/gibi let alone the IEC. Let me take this a bit out of context: you have entire countries who never heard of FOSS or GNU/Linux. Should that stop us from improving this movement and OS? Except that this is not 'improvement'. This is about blowing that erroneous three decade or so operating system convention of using SI prefixes for 1024 multiples of bytes out of the water without adding to the confusion that is leading to this move back to standards. That is absolutely not something Ubuntu specific and therefore not an improvement for the Ubuntu 'movement/OS'. Besides, I have already made clear in later posts in this thread that I really do not care what is used so long as it is uniform across all operating systems. If Ubuntu wants to do its thing while other operating systems keep convention, be my guest. You bet that I, for one, will not be installing it anywhere on school campus because the school has more important things to do than preach Ubuntu is right and all other operating systems are wrong which is why you have different numbers for GB on Ubuntu and XP, Solaris and Mac OS X and I will not risk looking like a fool or an Ubuntu/Linux fundamentalist for something the school may or may not care about. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: shameful censoring of mono opposition
On Tue, Jun 9, 2009 at 9:42 PM, Mackenzie Morganmaco...@gmail.com wrote: On Tuesday 09 June 2009 7:43:37 pm Mark Fink wrote: obviously some of the forum moderators are novell employees (or people who drink they're koolaid) who are censoring respectable people like neighborlee when they speak of the dangers of MONO We're mostly students, I think. Computer science, engineering, law, and an ex-mod is a botany student. There's also a guy that works on Xorg for Canonical. I'm both a student and (for my job) working on some open source software that's as old as the GNU project itself. perhaps neighborlee or roy schestowitz should be an ubuntu forum moderator to bring fairness to the forums? -- Only by destroying MONO can Linux be saved. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Ubuntu Desktop Unit Consistency (LP: #369525)
On Wed, Jun 10, 2009 at 09:01:48AM +0800, Christopher Chan wrote: Except that this is not 'improvement'. This is about blowing that erroneous three decade or so operating system convention of using SI prefixes for 1024 multiples of bytes out of the water without adding to the confusion that is leading to this move back to standards. That is absolutely not something Ubuntu specific and therefore not an improvement for the Ubuntu 'movement/OS'. Besides, I have already made clear in later posts in this thread that I really do not care what is used so long as it is uniform across all operating systems. If Ubuntu wants to do its thing while other operating systems keep convention, be my guest. You bet that I, for one, will not be installing it anywhere on school campus because the school has more important things to do than preach Ubuntu is right and all other operating systems are wrong which is why you have different numbers for GB on Ubuntu and XP, Solaris and Mac OS X and I will not risk looking like a fool or an Ubuntu/Linux fundamentalist for something the school may or may not care about. People keep ignoring a part of the original issues pointed out here. While for some things (e.g. file sizes) there has been a recent pattern of using the metric units improperly, that is not true when other things on computers are measured, e.g. bandwidth, and is never true for any other units (energy, distance, time, etc). For the prefixes and units to make any sense at all to users, they need to be consistently used. We can't expect people to learn that M means 10^6 for everything except storage on computers. And anyone who does anything with the numbers (like dividing file sizes by bandwidth units) to see how long something will take will get results that are off by larger and larger amounts as we move from kilobytes to terabytes. It is certainly an improvement to make these things make sense. We can argue about how to do it, who to work with, etc, but this confusion finally needs to be cleaned up. Neal McBurnett http://neal.mcburnett.org/ -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Ubuntu Desktop Unit Consistency (LP: #369525)
It is certainly an improvement to make these things make sense. Call it whatever you will. Improvement/fixing three decade long error We can argue about how to do it, who to work with, etc, but this confusion finally needs to be cleaned up. If I earlier gave the impression not to clean up, it was because this whole let's go back to standards did not quite hit me then. Now that we are done with that, let us get back on to the how/who part. Knock the doors of the POSIX committee and whoever else (Microsoft) down with a battering ram if you have to, we need to get operating systems makers to make a nice big announcement that they will finally stop using SI prefixes for multiples of 1024 and schools/whoever should stop explaining that kilobyte/KB = 1024 bytes, etc, etc. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
