Re: Ubuntu Domain Server
Steven Susbauer wrote: On Oct 21, 2009, at 10:56 PM, Christopher Chan wrote: Ryan Dwyer wrote: It doesn't matter how much work is involved. Do you think the Linux/Ubuntu community would be willing to change the way system logons work if it meant bug #1 could be completed? Let us see. To change the way system logons work would mean changing pam, the C library and just about anything that has to do with system accounts. You are welcome to try to convince the Ubuntu community to maintain a fork of all these essential system libraries and offer some form of backwards compatibility to avoid having to also modify who knows how many other packages like sendmail, apache, bind, ..., ..., ..., everything. Mac OS X, a certified UNIX system as of Snow Leopard, is enjoying a measure of success without having to become Windows like. You are barking up the wrong tree here. Note that OS X (that UNIX certified system) has completely changed how system logons work. User accounts (and a ton of other things) are managed through the Open Directory service even on the local machine. The plus of this is it is also highly compatible with external directory services. It takes three or four clicks of a mouse to configure the system to use a domain server and authenticate domain users against a centralized system. Their system is both compatible with traditional UID/GID, and also allows for separation of local machine and domain accounts. I am not extremely familiar with the intricacies of the OS X Open Directory system and know that they have put in the work to make it work well and be compatible. It is not impossible and certainly worth considering before writing it off. Of course it may be that it is too much work to implement something similar. OH? Now this is interesting. I wonder if it is present in Darwin where we can have a look at it. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Ubuntu Domain Server
Paul Smith wrote: On Thu, 2009-10-22 at 11:56 +0800, Christopher Chan wrote: It doesn't matter how much work is involved. Do you think the Linux/Ubuntu community would be willing to change the way system logons work if it meant bug #1 could be completed? Let us see. To change the way system logons work would mean changing pam, the C library and just about anything that has to do with system accounts. You are welcome to try to convince the Ubuntu community to maintain a fork of all these essential system libraries and offer some form of backwards compatibility to avoid having to also modify who knows how many other packages like sendmail, apache, bind, ..., ..., ..., everything. You guys need to step back a bit. There's absolutely no reason whatever that this _feature_ cannot be implemented on UNIX/Linux. Yes, obviously the _implementation_ that relies on changing the UID/GID scheme is a complete non-starter and cannot even be considered. There's no chance that anyone upstream will be willing to break that behavior and as you say, Ubuntu cannot essentially rewrite the entire GNU/Linux operating system to do away with it (don't forget that UID/GID is heavily embedded in the kernel, too, so Ubuntu would have to rework the kernel itself extensively). If this is Ryan's question then the answer is definitely no, not even if it meant bug #1 could be completed. Let's all remember our goal here is NOT to beat Microsoft by becoming a free version of Windows. Our goal is to produce a better product, while still staying true to the UNIX roots and philosophy (which we believe will lead to better software). However, luckily for us we do not HAVE to change or do away with UID/GID in order to implement automatic joins of a workstation. There's absolutely no reason that user paul.smith cannot have UID 1000 on one system and UID 2000 on another system: you just need to implement a mapping mechanism. At least you are attempting to address the system. Mapping system? I guess that means no shared filesystems. Let's try again. But there are so many things to be considered before you even get here that impact directly on this. For example, obviously security is critical and so you'll need a secure way to do AAA. How do you add users? How do users authenticate? Etc. etc. All critical questions. Most likely you will need to base this on Kerberos, just because there's nothing else out there with the requisite features + security, that I know of anyway. Once you have that figured out you must end up with some secure token which represents a user that you can present to other systems as proof of identity. Then all you have to do is have each host map that token to a locally relevant UID/GID. UID/GID cannot be used between hosts, anyway, in any secure fashion. That's just one idea. There are various different setups to share uid/gid between hosts. Since NIS to winbind. I'm certainly NOT saying it's not a lot of work. I'm saying that it can be done, and it doesn't require throwing out 30+ years of UNIX/POSIX history to do it, so let's not dismiss the big idea based only on one possible bad implementation. I just want to ram in the fact that you cannot change the current system of uid/gid and the only other option will be to build a new aaa system but that requires consensus within the Linux community or it will be an Ubuntu only thing in the beginning and work will be needed on all packages that will use it. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Ubuntu Domain Server
Am 22.10.2009 um 10:02 schrieb Christopher Chan: Mapping system? I guess that means no shared filesystems. SMBFS, sshfs and to some extent NFS support mapping already. It works just fine here and today, mapping volumes of a Mac OS X server onto an Ubuntu box. Markus - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Dipl. Ing. Markus Hitter http://www.jump-ing.de/ -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Ubuntu Domain Server
On Oct 22, 2009, at 2:56 AM, Christopher Chan wrote: Steven Susbauer wrote: On Oct 21, 2009, at 10:56 PM, Christopher Chan wrote: Ryan Dwyer wrote: It doesn't matter how much work is involved. Do you think the Linux/Ubuntu community would be willing to change the way system logons work if it meant bug #1 could be completed? Let us see. To change the way system logons work would mean changing pam, the C library and just about anything that has to do with system accounts. You are welcome to try to convince the Ubuntu community to maintain a fork of all these essential system libraries and offer some form of backwards compatibility to avoid having to also modify who knows how many other packages like sendmail, apache, bind, ..., ..., ..., everything. Mac OS X, a certified UNIX system as of Snow Leopard, is enjoying a measure of success without having to become Windows like. You are barking up the wrong tree here. Note that OS X (that UNIX certified system) has completely changed how system logons work. User accounts (and a ton of other things) are managed through the Open Directory service even on the local machine. The plus of this is it is also highly compatible with external directory services. It takes three or four clicks of a mouse to configure the system to use a domain server and authenticate domain users against a centralized system. Their system is both compatible with traditional UID/GID, and also allows for separation of local machine and domain accounts. I am not extremely familiar with the intricacies of the OS X Open Directory system and know that they have put in the work to make it work well and be compatible. It is not impossible and certainly worth considering before writing it off. Of course it may be that it is too much work to implement something similar. OH? Now this is interesting. I wonder if it is present in Darwin where we can have a look at it. It is indeed. See: http://developer.apple.com/opensource/dirservices/ as well as http://developer.apple.com/mac/library/documentation/Networking/Reference/DirectoryServiceFramework/index.html Both the Directory Service and OpenDirectory server are on their open source download page and are APSL. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Ubuntu Domain Server
Markus Hitter wrote: Am 22.10.2009 um 10:02 schrieb Christopher Chan: Mapping system? I guess that means no shared filesystems. SMBFS, sshfs and to some extent NFS support mapping already. It works just fine here and today, mapping volumes of a Mac OS X server onto an Ubuntu box. I was thinking of distributed filesystems like GFS, Lustre. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Ubuntu Domain Server
Steven Susbauer wrote: On Oct 22, 2009, at 2:56 AM, Christopher Chan wrote: Steven Susbauer wrote: On Oct 21, 2009, at 10:56 PM, Christopher Chan wrote: Ryan Dwyer wrote: It doesn't matter how much work is involved. Do you think the Linux/Ubuntu community would be willing to change the way system logons work if it meant bug #1 could be completed? Let us see. To change the way system logons work would mean changing pam, the C library and just about anything that has to do with system accounts. You are welcome to try to convince the Ubuntu community to maintain a fork of all these essential system libraries and offer some form of backwards compatibility to avoid having to also modify who knows how many other packages like sendmail, apache, bind, ..., ..., ..., everything. Mac OS X, a certified UNIX system as of Snow Leopard, is enjoying a measure of success without having to become Windows like. You are barking up the wrong tree here. Note that OS X (that UNIX certified system) has completely changed how system logons work. User accounts (and a ton of other things) are managed through the Open Directory service even on the local machine. The plus of this is it is also highly compatible with external directory services. It takes three or four clicks of a mouse to configure the system to use a domain server and authenticate domain users against a centralized system. Their system is both compatible with traditional UID/GID, and also allows for separation of local machine and domain accounts. I am not extremely familiar with the intricacies of the OS X Open Directory system and know that they have put in the work to make it work well and be compatible. It is not impossible and certainly worth considering before writing it off. Of course it may be that it is too much work to implement something similar. OH? Now this is interesting. I wonder if it is present in Darwin where we can have a look at it. It is indeed. See: http://developer.apple.com/opensource/dirservices/ as well as http://developer.apple.com/mac/library/documentation/Networking/Reference/DirectoryServiceFramework/index.html Both the Directory Service and OpenDirectory server are on their open source download page and are APSL. Both those links seem to be about how to access a directory...not about how they use the information from the directories. Definitely nothing about having a system where there is a 'local' vs 'domain' accounts. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Entertainment Pack?
There's a bunch of open source clones of Microsoft Entertainment Pack games. I'd be sufficiently ammused by actually including them all in Ubuntu... and maybe an Entertainment Pack option. Ubuntu would probably better serve its users including other things, though, rather than just an attempted clone at early 90s Microsoft, though. I don't mean just default games that are packaged, but actually an expansion that includes casual games like Armagetron Advanced, Frozen Bubble, etc. There could be an ubuntu-games-pack-heavy or something that included Nexuiz, Battle for Wesnoth, and some other heavier things. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: [ubuntu-marketing] Reviving the Marketing Team (yet, again!) with a focus on simple activism
This issue is a good candidate for the (underused) Community Bug Reporting area in Launchpad. https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu-community/+filebug Can someone summarize and log it there? Cheers, Randall Ubuntu Vancouver LoCo -- Message: 2 Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2009 17:22:12 -0400 From: Martin Owens docto...@gmail.com Subject: Re: [ubuntu-marketing] Reviving the Marketing Team (yet again!) with a focus on simple activism Hey John, On Wed, 2009-10-21 at 10:46 -0500, John Vilsack wrote: It saddens me because Ubuntu is a dominant product that could be so much more if the grassroots movement would allow itself to have direction. But after years of infighting in politics and other open source products, I didn't have the constitution to go toe to toe with the embedded members of our community here who were putting up a fight. Could you identify these people? would it be possible to get a meeting in IRC and hash out your concerns with an arbitrator/moderator? I haven't seen much stubborn, I've only seen lack of man power. If only there was someone to fight, at least that'd be more interesting than the tumbleweeds. My feeling is that the only way this will ever change is with the direction of Canonical. Until that time, we will continue to get our collective rears handed to us by companies that have the discipline and cohesive message necessary to establish any sort of mainstream market awareness or saturation. Ah, we're not a business, we're a community, it's not exactly the same. And it's not like we don't have a certain vision, we just don't have a good leadership for this section of the community. Martin, -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
OpenOffice update
When can we expect to see an update to OpenOffice? Tim www.timscomputershop.com CompTIA A+ Authorized Service Center 1-888-286-9284 -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: [ubuntu-marketing] Reviving the Marketing Team (yet again!) with a focus on simple activism
This is largely a problem that exists not only with Ubuntu, but with the Open Source Movement in general. Last time this conversation came up, there was a large contingent of people we wished to see a core group of a marketing team come to fruition. Unfortunately, several of the more active members of the community tended to be the most vocal opponents, and threatened to abandon the project altogether if such a tyranny were created. I opted to back down because the moderators in IRC proclaimed that they could lead such a charge without any sort of core marketing group. The lack of results are more than enough evidence of their progress. The marketing community for Ubuntu is a reflection of what the Development cycle would look like if there wasn't a Core Development Team. Without direction, there can be no progress. Marketing from a community standpoint will continue to be dominated by the few who object to any sort of structure and the message will continue to be lost because the message itself has no clear delineation. It saddens me because Ubuntu is a dominant product that could be so much more if the grassroots movement would allow itself to have direction. But after years of infighting in politics and other open source products, I didn't have the constitution to go toe to toe with the embedded members of our community here who were putting up a fight. My feeling is that the only way this will ever change is with the direction of Canonical. Until that time, we will continue to get our collective rears handed to us by companies that have the discipline and cohesive message necessary to establish any sort of mainstream market awareness or saturation. Good Luck, John On Wed, Oct 21, 2009 at 12:45 AM, Martin Owens docto...@gmail.com wrote: Hey Danny, On Wed, 2009-10-21 at 01:30 -0400, Danny Piccirillo wrote: Cross-posting just to get the word out. I've added the Ubuntu LoCo Contacts lists, a group very pertinent to this topic. Many lengthy and interesting discussions have come up about what to do with the Marketing Team. Ultimately, it comes down to how motivated people are to create their own projects under the team. Just like any other LoCo, this depends on individual involvement, but i don't want to start yet another discussion on this. Well, what might be needed is someone to head up the team. Some artist or designer (not developer) who stands like a poised like a hero against the backdrop of the Ubuntu Community landscape and to whome we can all look up and say: I bet if I ask him, he'll know where I can get a poster for my event As the moment I produce content, I don't tend to produce it under the banner of the marketing team. The website for spread ubuntu isn't linked very well with the marketing team and the marketing team has no grand vision or responsibilities. I merely wanted to propose changing or adding to the scope of the team to include general activism. Dropping all focus on marketing probably isn't going to be any better, not to mention that just like marketing, activism is also something done by local community teams, BUT adding simple activism to the scope of this team, might give the team more purpose and drive up activity in other areas. Yes, marketing Ubuntu *is* activism, but i'm talking about officially recognizing general FOSS activism as one of the functions of the team. I'd advise against including activism. You don't need to widen the scope. You just need to find someone or some people willing and able to drop their own LoCo's work and come higher into the world community. A leader perhaps? The mailing list can be used to share ideas for activism and pass on things like this open letter to Obama in support of FOSS (reddit link: http://www.reddit.com/tb/9w23y/ original link: http://www.consortiuminfo.org/standardsblog/article.php?story=20091020050110241). If you're in support of this idea, just pass on any simple actions you come across to the list. There's also this nifty activism guide: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ActivismGuide Interesting, thanks for posting Dan. Best Regards, Martin Owens -- ubuntu-marketing mailing list ubuntu-market...@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-marketing -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: OpenOffice update
On Thu, 2009-10-22 at 13:50 -0400, Tim Gelvin wrote: When can we expect to see an update to OpenOffice? What do you mean? There is 1:3.1.1-5ubuntu1 in Karmic already. Chris -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: OpenOffice update
On Thu, Oct 22, 2009 at 1:50 PM, Tim Gelvin timgel...@gmail.com wrote: When can we expect to see an update to OpenOffice? Depends on which version of Ubuntu you're talking about. Jaunty (9.04) is already released, so the version is unlikely to change unless a security vulnerability is found. Guidelines at [1]. Karmic (9.10) is very very close to release, and is now under final freeze. Guidelines at [2]. Lucid (10.04) will see an update as soon as syncing from upstream (Debian Unstable [3]) starts again. This will be fairly soon after Karmic is released. Hope this answers your question, Evan [1] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/StableReleaseUpdates [2] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/FinalFreeze [3] http://www.debian.org/releases/unstable/ -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
RE: Ubuntu Domain Server
Whether I'm becoming old fashioned or whether I've been using Linux for too long, I dunno. But 90% of the applications that I use are command line driven. The only graphical apps I use on a daily basis are Firefox, Evolution. And of course the occasional use of The Gimp, Inkscape, Brasero, Devede etc. But all the rest is completely driven from a terminal inside a Fluxbox session. Why, because it's low-resource usage and much more productive and functional. So to claim that a GUI is much more productive than a CLI is absolutely false, from a certain perspective. Obviously it's all user dependant and dependant on the users habits. But we shouldn't be encouraging the use of a GUI inside a server environment simply because it breeds dumb users. As pointed out by someone else on the mailing list, Windows users are often closed minded and not open to learning something new. And give a techie a Windows box to fix and he'll instantly know where the problem lies. But give him a tux box and I can guarantee that he probably wouldn't have a bloody clue. Heck, even most ISP network admins don't wanna help you if you're running a Linux OS. Why? Simply because they don't know Linux. Anyway, I'm starting to run off track a little but going back to my point; GUI servers are breeding these clueless geeks! I 'unofficially' admin the Windows network at work and I can't tell you how many times I've sat there and wondered how good it would be to add and implement a Linux server into the network. But I certainly wouldn't be installing a full blown GUI. Webmin perhaps, but that's where I draw the line. The whole purpose of a server is to use minimal resources and have only the basics of tools to get the job done. This primarily is what has traditionally separated a Server Operating System from a Desktop Operating System. And just to go back to what I said in the beginning, to claim that a GUI is more productive than a CLI is not only crap, but it clearly demonstrates a users lack of knowledge of not only the server sector but the technology behind Linux as a whole. -- Chris Jones chrisjo...@comcen.com.au Photographic Imaging Professional ABN: 98 317 740 240 Photo Resolutions http://photoresolutions.freehostia.com iScreen and Print http://iscreenandprint.freehostia.com -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Ubuntu Domain Server
On 23/10/09 07:04, Chris Jones wrote: But we shouldn't be encouraging the use of a GUI inside a server environment simply because it breeds dumb users. While I agree that users, well sysadmins (and I use the term loosely) are getting dumber in the world, I don't think it's because of a GUI. I have seen plenty dumb things in CLI environments - Netware used to be a CLI environment and I saw much that made me shudder. In the good old days of DOS you could do plenty of dumb things with its CLI. I don't think that the GUI is breeding dumbness as such. I'm sure that it's a contributing factor. Education is the key. It's always been the key, and it will continue to be the key. When You Earnestly Believe You Can Compensate For A Lack Of Skill By Doubling Your Efforts, There's No End To What You Can't Do. For me if a GUI helps me solve a problem by explaining what's going on, it's done its job. A final thought, which I've not come across. In the early '90s, Apple had an OS called AU/X, which was a murder between BSD and UNIX. It had one redeeming feature. If you were on a CLI and you typed a command and pressed Apple-Enter, you'd get a dialog that provided you with a GUI to that command. It allowed you to compose a command and on completion, you'd be back at the CLI, ready to run the tool. -- Onno Benschop Connected via Bigpond NextG at S31°54'06 - E115°50'39 (Yokine, WA) -- ()/)/)()..ASCII for Onno.. |?..EBCDIC for Onno.. --- -. -. --- ..Morse for Onno.. ITmaze - ABN: 56 178 057 063 - ph: 04 1219 - o...@itmaze.com.au -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Ubuntu Domain Server
I don't think there's any use discussing whether we think a GUI or CLI is better. Shouldn't we focus on what the typical business wants and what they're prepared to use? Although it seems that the first topic to discuss is how the uid/gid system can be changed or mapped to support local and domain accounts (forgive me if I'm not using the correct terminology). -Ryan On Fri, Oct 23, 2009 at 10:01 AM, Onno Benschop o...@itmaze.com.au wrote: On 23/10/09 07:04, Chris Jones wrote: But we shouldn't be encouraging the use of a GUI inside a server environment simply because it breeds dumb users. While I agree that users, well sysadmins (and I use the term loosely) are getting dumber in the world, I don't think it's because of a GUI. I have seen plenty dumb things in CLI environments - Netware used to be a CLI environment and I saw much that made me shudder. In the good old days of DOS you could do plenty of dumb things with its CLI. I don't think that the GUI is breeding dumbness as such. I'm sure that it's a contributing factor. Education is the key. It's always been the key, and it will continue to be the key. When You Earnestly Believe You Can Compensate For A Lack Of Skill By Doubling Your Efforts, There's No End To What You Can't Do. For me if a GUI helps me solve a problem by explaining what's going on, it's done its job. A final thought, which I've not come across. In the early '90s, Apple had an OS called AU/X, which was a murder between BSD and UNIX. It had one redeeming feature. If you were on a CLI and you typed a command and pressed Apple-Enter, you'd get a dialog that provided you with a GUI to that command. It allowed you to compose a command and on completion, you'd be back at the CLI, ready to run the tool. -- Onno Benschop Connected via Bigpond NextG at S31°54'06 - E115°50'39 (Yokine, WA) -- ()/)/)()..ASCII for Onno.. |?..EBCDIC for Onno.. --- -. -. --- ..Morse for Onno.. ITmaze - ABN: 56 178 057 063 - ph: 04 1219 - o...@itmaze.com.au -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Ubuntu Domain Server
Ryan Dwyer wrote: I don't think there's any use discussing whether we think a GUI or CLI is better. Shouldn't we focus on what the typical business wants and what they're prepared to use? You started it. :-D. BTW, please do not top post. Although it seems that the first topic to discuss is how the uid/gid system can be changed or mapped to support local and domain accounts (forgive me if I'm not using the correct terminology). The only option will probably be to extend the system and add support for 'domain' accounts to other applications. In an environment where new machines are added straight away to a domain/realm/whatever there is no problem but if you envision being able to move from a 'workgroup' environment to a 'domain' environment, that is currently not possible without major intervention by an admin. -Ryan On Fri, Oct 23, 2009 at 10:01 AM, Onno Benschop o...@itmaze.com.au mailto:o...@itmaze.com.au wrote: On 23/10/09 07:04, Chris Jones wrote: But we shouldn't be encouraging the use of a GUI inside a server environment simply because it breeds dumb users. While I agree that users, well sysadmins (and I use the term loosely) are getting dumber in the world, I don't think it's because of a GUI. I have seen plenty dumb things in CLI environments - Netware used to be a CLI environment and I saw much that made me shudder. In the good old days of DOS you could do plenty of dumb things with its CLI. I don't think that the GUI is breeding dumbness as such. I'm sure that it's a contributing factor. Education is the key. It's always been the key, and it will continue to be the key. When You Earnestly Believe You Can Compensate For A Lack Of Skill By Doubling Your Efforts, There's No End To What You Can't Do. For me if a GUI helps me solve a problem by explaining what's going on, it's done its job. A final thought, which I've not come across. In the early '90s, Apple had an OS called AU/X, which was a murder between BSD and UNIX. It had one redeeming feature. If you were on a CLI and you typed a command and pressed Apple-Enter, you'd get a dialog that provided you with a GUI to that command. It allowed you to compose a command and on completion, you'd be back at the CLI, ready to run the tool. -- Onno Benschop Connected via Bigpond NextG at S31°54'06 - E115°50'39 (Yokine, WA) -- ()/)/)()..ASCII for Onno.. |?..EBCDIC for Onno.. --- -. -. --- ..Morse for Onno.. ITmaze - ABN: 56 178 057 063 - ph: 04 1219 - o...@itmaze.com.au mailto:o...@itmaze.com.au -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com mailto:Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Ubuntu Domain Server
Op vrijdag 23-10-2009 om 10:32 uur [tijdzone +1030], schreef Ryan Dwyer: I don't think there's any use discussing whether we think a GUI or CLI is better. Shouldn't we focus on what the typical business wants and what they're prepared to use? Businesses don't want a GUI per se, they want something that works OOTB, or at least after a simple configuration process. And they often want non-sysadmins to be able to do certain tasks that we might think about as sysadmin tasks. Adding new users (employees) for example. BTW: GUI tools shouldn't run on a server, but on the admin's (or pseudo-admin's) desktop. Using a secure connection to the server, of course. -- Jan Claeys -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Ubuntu Domain Server
BTW: GUI tools shouldn't run on a server, but on the admin's (or pseudo-admin's) desktop. Using a secure connection to the server, of course. I take it no one has any issues with web based GUI tools? The server could run a CLI and after installing, prompt the user to open a browser to http://hostname:port/ from a different machine. You could even add this as an option on the existing ubuntu-server installation in the additional software section. This would work because the system admin who's trying Linux at home will be able to manage it. And it means the server doesn't have the overheads of running a desktop environment. So then that brings up the question of what web based tool should be used. Webmin isn't officially supported. I can't comment on eBox - I've used it once but don't remember it. The tool should still have options like hardware/software tracking, so whatever tool is used would probably have to be modified. And you would still need to figure out a way to make Ubuntu desktops switch to a domain system. Comments? -Ryan -- Jan Claeys -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Ubuntu Domain Server
On 23/10/09 10:33, Ryan Dwyer wrote: So then that brings up the question of what web based tool should be used. Ubuntu Server has chosen eBox as that tool. -- Onno Benschop Connected via Bigpond NextG at S31°54'06 - E115°50'39 (Yokine, WA) -- ()/)/)()..ASCII for Onno.. |?..EBCDIC for Onno.. --- -. -. --- ..Morse for Onno.. ITmaze - ABN: 56 178 057 063 - ph: 04 1219 - o...@itmaze.com.au -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
