Re: Devuan
Enrico Weigelt, metux IT consult [2014-12-02 7:55 +0100]: > By the way: is it then be mandatory ? Yes, it will be. As Scott and others have already pointed out, Ubuntu never offered a choice of init systems, and doesn't plan on doing so. This just introduces complexity, combinatorial testing explosion, etc. that we don't want and don't offer for any other part of the plumbing stack. Martin -- Martin Pitt| http://www.piware.de Ubuntu Developer (www.ubuntu.com) | Debian Developer (www.debian.org) -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Devuan
On 01.12.2014 19:15, Tom H wrote: > Especially after deciding a few months ago to switch to systemd! By the way: is it then be mandatory ? Because, for me, that would mean leaving Ubuntu, definitively. I'm currently exploring ways for getting rid of polkit, and also trimming down in other places (eg. get rid of cups stuff). In case of Ubuntu will force me to use systemd, I wont invest any resources here (also never again rollout Ubuntu for my customers), instead fully concentrate on Devuan. cu -- Enrico Weigelt, metux IT consulting +49-151-27565287 -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Devuan
It's fairly impossible, at this point in time, to have a discuss about Devuan without it also being a discussion about systemd, that is the raison d'etat for it's existence. If they can get it off the ground and produce a stable, sustainable distribution, then that might change. Michael Hall mhall...@gmail.com On 12/01/2014 02:31 PM, Diego Germán Gonzalez wrote: > El 01/12/14 a las 15:45, Michael Hall escibió: >> Please do keep an eye on Devuan's development, and participate in it if >> you are interested in the direction they are taking. But I think we can >> all agree that it is *far* too early to start thinking about rebase-ing >> off of it. > I only seek to comment that it would be interesting to pay attention to > the project. I do not know why it ended in a discussion about systemd or > its alternatives. or why it created so many negative reactions. > It is not the first time that Ubuntu takes a fork (libreoffice, libav) > and I think that negative reactions as exaggerated discourage > participation of users > > -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Devuan
It's in its initial phases; we're capable of many options; we've forked many things in the past. It's not about a holy war between versions, it's not about a dislike of a topic, it's simply something that can either be discussed or ignored. One can either contribute their opinion or leave it be, let it pile up among the other emails discussing things that either perk one's interest and passion in Ubuntu, or distract from one's area in a sea of email. -- 3D56BAF174656A19 +1307.438.9583 -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Devuan
On Monday, December 01, 2014 04:31:55 PM Diego Germán Gonzalez wrote: > El 01/12/14 a las 15:45, Michael Hall escibió: > > Please do keep an eye on Devuan's development, and participate in it if > > you are interested in the direction they are taking. But I think we can > > all agree that it is*far* too early to start thinking about rebase-ing > > off of it. > > I only seek to comment that it would be interesting to pay attention to > the project. I do not know why it ended in a discussion about systemd or > its alternatives. or why it created so many negative reactions. > It is not the first time that Ubuntu takes a fork (libreoffice, libav) > and I think that negative reactions as exaggerated discourage > participation of users The only reason Devuan exists is some people "don't like" for a large value of "don't like" systemd, so if you bring it up, systemd is automatically in the picture. Personally, as someone who participates in both Ubuntu and Debian development, I'm entirely sick of the topic. While I don't want to discourage user participation generally, I don't think this is a productive line of conversation. Scott K -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Devuan
El 01/12/14 a las 15:45, Michael Hall escibió: Please do keep an eye on Devuan's development, and participate in it if you are interested in the direction they are taking. But I think we can all agree that it is*far* too early to start thinking about rebase-ing off of it. I only seek to comment that it would be interesting to pay attention to the project. I do not know why it ended in a discussion about systemd or its alternatives. or why it created so many negative reactions. It is not the first time that Ubuntu takes a fork (libreoffice, libav) and I think that negative reactions as exaggerated discourage participation of users -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Devuan
On 12/01/2014 09:22 AM, Diego Germán Gonzalez wrote: > I just learned of the launch of Devuan > https://devuan.org/ > A fork of Debian which eliminates the requirement to use systemd, and > promises to build a less bureaucratic and more friendly community > towards the derived distros > Will have to see how the project evolves, but if they do not be a bad > idea that Ubuntu will begin to rely on it > Please do keep an eye on Devuan's development, and participate in it if you are interested in the direction they are taking. But I think we can all agree that it is *far* too early to start thinking about rebase-ing off of it. Michael Hall mhall...@ubuntu.com -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Devuan
Please note that telling somebody you think their post is off-topic is not the same as telling them it can not be discussed. The topic has in fact continued to be discussed despite Scott's opinion. If you don't agree with him, just say so and continue the discussion, there is no need to make this personal. Michael Hall mhall...@ubuntu.com On 12/01/2014 12:11 PM, Alexander Hanff wrote: > Who died and made you god of what people can and cannot discuss on this > list. Diego spotted an interesting new development which he brought to the > attention of the list with the suggestion that it might potentially be > useful to Ubuntu in the future - that is completely relevant and completely > acceptable content to post - you have zero right to come down on him and > accuse him of being off-topic just because you don't like the idea, so > please, get off your high horse. > > -Original Message- > From: ubuntu-devel-discuss-boun...@lists.ubuntu.com > [mailto:ubuntu-devel-discuss-boun...@lists.ubuntu.com] On Behalf Of Scott > Kitterman > Sent: 01 December 2014 18:03 > To: ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com > Subject: Re: Devuan > > As I explained, it's not relevant. I get you think it is. I disagree. The > mail (since you care to debate it) is also based on a false premise. There > is no requirement in Debian to use systemd as the init system. It is the > default. It's trivial to retain sysvinit and possible to use upstart. > > None of which is relevant to Ubuntu which has never offered init system > choice and moved off of sysvinit last decade. > > Scott K > > On Monday, December 01, 2014 05:58:37 PM Alexander Hanff wrote: >> I don't think your response was called for Scott - whether you agree >> or not with the suggestion doesn't make it any less relevant. To say >> it is off-topic is ridiculous, it is absolutely relevant to Ubuntu >> development and was something Diego wanted to point out as a potential >> option for Ubuntu in the future. >> >> >> >> -Original Message- >> From: ubuntu-devel-discuss-boun...@lists.ubuntu.com >> [mailto:ubuntu-devel-discuss-boun...@lists.ubuntu.com] On Behalf Of >> Scott Kitterman >> Sent: 01 December 2014 17:42 >> To: ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com >> Subject: Re: Devuan >> >> On Monday, December 01, 2014 11:22:22 AM Diego Germán Gonzalez wrote: >>> I just learned of the launch of Devuan https://devuan.org/ A fork of >>> Debian which eliminates the requirement to use systemd, and promises >>> to build a less bureaucratic and more friendly community towards the >>> derived distros Will have to see how the project evolves, but if >>> they do not be a bad idea that Ubuntu will begin to rely on it >> >> That's rather unrelated to Ubuntu development. Ubuntu has taken it's >> own decisions on init systems for some time (it wasn't in this decade >> that Ubuntu last had a release that used sysvinit). >> >> Please stay on topic. >> >> Scott K >> >> -- >> Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list >> Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com >> Modify settings or unsubscribe at: >> https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss > > > -- > Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list > Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com > Modify settings or unsubscribe at: > https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss > > -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Devuan
On Mon, Dec 1, 2014 at 9:22 AM, Diego Germán Gonzalez wrote: > > I just learned of the launch of Devuan > https://devuan.org/ > A fork of Debian which eliminates the requirement to use systemd, and > promises to build a less bureaucratic and more friendly community towards > the derived distros > Will have to see how the project evolves, but if they do not be a bad idea > that Ubuntu will begin to rely on it Why would Ubuntu want to go back to the init that it abandoned eight years ago?! Especially after deciding a few months ago to switch to systemd! -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Devuan
I'm not a list admin, so it's only my opinion. I don't have any power stop anyone from saying anything. People can discuss whatever they want that's related to Ubuntu development (thus the name of the list). Personally, I think discussion of other potential Debian derivatives doesn't qualify. Other people may feel differently. What you might consider is that many Ubuntu developers don't bother to subscribe to this list since the signal to noise ratio is low. If you lower it, then more will unsubscribe. This is supposed to be a list where developers and non-developers can interact and discuss Ubuntu development, but in the past developers have just unsubscribed when it got to unpleasant. We really, really don't need the Debian systemd flames leaking into Ubuntu. Posting about it here is, in my opinion, only going to have a negative result. Most (if not all) of the Ubuntu developers who work on the core platform (including init) are also involved in Debian, so it's not like we aren't well aware of it. Scott K On Monday, December 01, 2014 18:11:20 Alexander Hanff wrote: > Who died and made you god of what people can and cannot discuss on this > list. Diego spotted an interesting new development which he brought to the > attention of the list with the suggestion that it might potentially be > useful to Ubuntu in the future - that is completely relevant and completely > acceptable content to post - you have zero right to come down on him and > accuse him of being off-topic just because you don't like the idea, so > please, get off your high horse. > > -Original Message- > From: ubuntu-devel-discuss-boun...@lists.ubuntu.com > [mailto:ubuntu-devel-discuss-boun...@lists.ubuntu.com] On Behalf Of Scott > Kitterman > Sent: 01 December 2014 18:03 > To: ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com > Subject: Re: Devuan > > As I explained, it's not relevant. I get you think it is. I disagree. The > mail (since you care to debate it) is also based on a false premise. There > is no requirement in Debian to use systemd as the init system. It is the > default. It's trivial to retain sysvinit and possible to use upstart. > > None of which is relevant to Ubuntu which has never offered init system > choice and moved off of sysvinit last decade. > > Scott K > > On Monday, December 01, 2014 05:58:37 PM Alexander Hanff wrote: > > I don't think your response was called for Scott - whether you agree > > or not with the suggestion doesn't make it any less relevant. To say > > it is off-topic is ridiculous, it is absolutely relevant to Ubuntu > > development and was something Diego wanted to point out as a potential > > option for Ubuntu in the future. > > > > > > > > -Original Message- > > From: ubuntu-devel-discuss-boun...@lists.ubuntu.com > > [mailto:ubuntu-devel-discuss-boun...@lists.ubuntu.com] On Behalf Of > > Scott Kitterman > > Sent: 01 December 2014 17:42 > > To: ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com > > Subject: Re: Devuan > > > > On Monday, December 01, 2014 11:22:22 AM Diego Germán Gonzalez wrote: > > > I just learned of the launch of Devuan https://devuan.org/ A fork of > > > Debian which eliminates the requirement to use systemd, and promises > > > to build a less bureaucratic and more friendly community towards the > > > derived distros Will have to see how the project evolves, but if > > > they do not be a bad idea that Ubuntu will begin to rely on it > > > > That's rather unrelated to Ubuntu development. Ubuntu has taken it's > > own decisions on init systems for some time (it wasn't in this decade > > that Ubuntu last had a release that used sysvinit). > > > > Please stay on topic. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Devuan
On Monday, December 01, 2014 14:17:57 Diego Germán Gonzalez wrote: > El 01/12/14 a las 14:11, Alexander Hanff escibió: > > Who died and made you god of what people can and cannot discuss on this > > list. Diego spotted an interesting new development which he brought to > > the > > attention of the list with the suggestion that it might potentially be > > useful to Ubuntu in the future - that is completely relevant and > > completely > > acceptable content to post - you have zero right to come down on him and > > accuse him of being off-topic just because you don't like the idea, so > > please, get off your high horse. > > A distro is much more than a bit of code. Devuan uses systemD it as an > excuse to create a more open, less bureaucratic and more friendly to the > derivative distrio community. > Anyway Debian recently modified its decision not to mandate systemd > after protests within the community Nonsense. It was never mandatory. Scott K -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Devuan
El 01/12/14 a las 14:11, Alexander Hanff escibió: Who died and made you god of what people can and cannot discuss on this list. Diego spotted an interesting new development which he brought to the attention of the list with the suggestion that it might potentially be useful to Ubuntu in the future - that is completely relevant and completely acceptable content to post - you have zero right to come down on him and accuse him of being off-topic just because you don't like the idea, so please, get off your high horse. A distro is much more than a bit of code. Devuan uses systemD it as an excuse to create a more open, less bureaucratic and more friendly to the derivative distrio community. Anyway Debian recently modified its decision not to mandate systemd after protests within the community -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
RE: Devuan
Who died and made you god of what people can and cannot discuss on this list. Diego spotted an interesting new development which he brought to the attention of the list with the suggestion that it might potentially be useful to Ubuntu in the future - that is completely relevant and completely acceptable content to post - you have zero right to come down on him and accuse him of being off-topic just because you don't like the idea, so please, get off your high horse. -Original Message- From: ubuntu-devel-discuss-boun...@lists.ubuntu.com [mailto:ubuntu-devel-discuss-boun...@lists.ubuntu.com] On Behalf Of Scott Kitterman Sent: 01 December 2014 18:03 To: ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Subject: Re: Devuan As I explained, it's not relevant. I get you think it is. I disagree. The mail (since you care to debate it) is also based on a false premise. There is no requirement in Debian to use systemd as the init system. It is the default. It's trivial to retain sysvinit and possible to use upstart. None of which is relevant to Ubuntu which has never offered init system choice and moved off of sysvinit last decade. Scott K On Monday, December 01, 2014 05:58:37 PM Alexander Hanff wrote: > I don't think your response was called for Scott - whether you agree > or not with the suggestion doesn't make it any less relevant. To say > it is off-topic is ridiculous, it is absolutely relevant to Ubuntu > development and was something Diego wanted to point out as a potential > option for Ubuntu in the future. > > > > -Original Message- > From: ubuntu-devel-discuss-boun...@lists.ubuntu.com > [mailto:ubuntu-devel-discuss-boun...@lists.ubuntu.com] On Behalf Of > Scott Kitterman > Sent: 01 December 2014 17:42 > To: ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com > Subject: Re: Devuan > > On Monday, December 01, 2014 11:22:22 AM Diego Germán Gonzalez wrote: > > I just learned of the launch of Devuan https://devuan.org/ A fork of > > Debian which eliminates the requirement to use systemd, and promises > > to build a less bureaucratic and more friendly community towards the > > derived distros Will have to see how the project evolves, but if > > they do not be a bad idea that Ubuntu will begin to rely on it > > That's rather unrelated to Ubuntu development. Ubuntu has taken it's > own decisions on init systems for some time (it wasn't in this decade > that Ubuntu last had a release that used sysvinit). > > Please stay on topic. > > Scott K > > -- > Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list > Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com > Modify settings or unsubscribe at: > https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Devuan
As I explained, it's not relevant. I get you think it is. I disagree. The mail (since you care to debate it) is also based on a false premise. There is no requirement in Debian to use systemd as the init system. It is the default. It's trivial to retain sysvinit and possible to use upstart. None of which is relevant to Ubuntu which has never offered init system choice and moved off of sysvinit last decade. Scott K On Monday, December 01, 2014 05:58:37 PM Alexander Hanff wrote: > I don't think your response was called for Scott - whether you agree or not > with the suggestion doesn't make it any less relevant. To say it is > off-topic is ridiculous, it is absolutely relevant to Ubuntu development and > was something Diego wanted to point out as a potential option for Ubuntu in > the future. > > > > -Original Message- > From: ubuntu-devel-discuss-boun...@lists.ubuntu.com > [mailto:ubuntu-devel-discuss-boun...@lists.ubuntu.com] On Behalf Of Scott > Kitterman > Sent: 01 December 2014 17:42 > To: ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com > Subject: Re: Devuan > > On Monday, December 01, 2014 11:22:22 AM Diego Germán Gonzalez wrote: > > I just learned of the launch of Devuan https://devuan.org/ A fork of > > Debian which eliminates the requirement to use systemd, and promises > > to build a less bureaucratic and more friendly community towards the > > derived distros Will have to see how the project evolves, but if they > > do not be a bad idea that Ubuntu will begin to rely on it > > That's rather unrelated to Ubuntu development. Ubuntu has taken it's own > decisions on init systems for some time (it wasn't in this decade that > Ubuntu last had a release that used sysvinit). > > Please stay on topic. > > Scott K > > -- > Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list > Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com > Modify settings or unsubscribe at: > https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
RE: Devuan
I don't think your response was called for Scott - whether you agree or not with the suggestion doesn't make it any less relevant. To say it is off-topic is ridiculous, it is absolutely relevant to Ubuntu development and was something Diego wanted to point out as a potential option for Ubuntu in the future. -Original Message- From: ubuntu-devel-discuss-boun...@lists.ubuntu.com [mailto:ubuntu-devel-discuss-boun...@lists.ubuntu.com] On Behalf Of Scott Kitterman Sent: 01 December 2014 17:42 To: ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Subject: Re: Devuan On Monday, December 01, 2014 11:22:22 AM Diego Germán Gonzalez wrote: > I just learned of the launch of Devuan https://devuan.org/ A fork of > Debian which eliminates the requirement to use systemd, and promises > to build a less bureaucratic and more friendly community towards the > derived distros Will have to see how the project evolves, but if they > do not be a bad idea that Ubuntu will begin to rely on it That's rather unrelated to Ubuntu development. Ubuntu has taken it's own decisions on init systems for some time (it wasn't in this decade that Ubuntu last had a release that used sysvinit). Please stay on topic. Scott K -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Devuan
On Monday, December 01, 2014 11:22:22 AM Diego Germán Gonzalez wrote: > I just learned of the launch of Devuan > https://devuan.org/ > A fork of Debian which eliminates the requirement to use systemd, and > promises to build a less bureaucratic and more friendly community > towards the derived distros > Will have to see how the project evolves, but if they do not be a bad > idea that Ubuntu will begin to rely on it That's rather unrelated to Ubuntu development. Ubuntu has taken it's own decisions on init systems for some time (it wasn't in this decade that Ubuntu last had a release that used sysvinit). Please stay on topic. Scott K -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Devuan
I just learned of the launch of Devuan https://devuan.org/ A fork of Debian which eliminates the requirement to use systemd, and promises to build a less bureaucratic and more friendly community towards the derived distros Will have to see how the project evolves, but if they do not be a bad idea that Ubuntu will begin to rely on it -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
