Re: Ubuntu in Chinese for Taiwan - Ubuntu-devel-discuss Digest, Vol 121, Issue 3

[Xen]

JMZ schreef op 06-12-2016 18:14:

On 12/06/2016 10:21 AM, Jesse Steele wrote:


As I understand, current Ubuntu users are sophisticated types like 
super-geeks, engineers, and professors. They probably provide most 
input for Ubuntu's knowledge base, but there is no reason Ubuntu can't 
work for normal Taiwanese.


This perception you note is certainly the case in North America, and
likely in other cultures.  Part of the difficulty of "selling" younger
adults on Linux is, in the main, bash.  In the late 1980's I began
computing with my school's C64s and later 80286.  A twentysomething
today likely didn't learn about computers through assembly code
projects etc.  I acclimated quickly to bash given my past experiences.
 Today, there is no past.


The past has been wiped out because Windows does not provide any easy 
way to program the base system (writing device drivers or anything is an 
enormous task) but Linux is no easier and is not a good environment for 
learning to program because its scope is too big; there is too much you 
can do at any given time to know how to find what you would want to do.


Back in MS-DOS the help system was very concise, all the commands were 
listed and also the only directory that mattered was c:\dos.


There were basically only 4 files that were of importance outside of 
C:\DOS and those were autoexec.bat, config.sys, io.sys and msdos.sys, 
the latter two of which you never needed to touch, but use the sys.com 
utility to create bootable floppies and the kind.


Anyone could easily start programming in QBasic and create executables 
in that way, although perhaps you needed the QuickBasic compiler for 
that, which was not supplied.


Doing system manipulation in MS-DOS (through QBasic I mean) was harder 
but that's where Turbo Pascal came in. It provided an assembler and 
could compile stuff easily to executables. At the same time there was 
also Turbo C to provide the same experience for C users.


Access to the hardware was direct and there was no complexity involved 
in getting started, all you needed was the (Turbo Pascal) environment 
(or similar) and you were good to go.


Today people are STILL learning programming through the age-old Turbo 
Pascal environment, but now in emulators.


I once spoke to a girl who was being taught programming at school. It 
was a few years ago but they were using pascal.


So yes, agree completely. The past is lost.

I once ventured it would be a good idea to build an android-like toy 
system where people could learn to program, a hardware device like the 
old "Home Computers", but the only thing that comes close is the OLPC 
(One Laptop Per Child).


Which is a Linux system, but scoped to make it easier for pupils and 
children to learn the ropes, together with a guided system to learn the 
ropes of programming and language.


It's fancy that those "poor people" have what our children don't.

Today the only thing that reminds me of coming near is the Arduino.

But it's not for computing, it's for electronics really, and that is 
really not everyone's game, at every junction in their lives.


When I was in school (basic school, primary school) our computers would 
have QBasic on them or even GW-Basic and it was possible to do something 
with it. Today's computers have no programming environments and Bash or 
Python or Ruby or Perl is not the same thing.


It's way too serious and way too difficult to do anything in that 
doesn't impact the entire system that is already way too serious and way 
too difficult, as a matter of saying, because I am sure many here 
disagree.


I have long-standing project to recreate some of that 80s feeling but I 
haven't been able to work on it.


Sorry ;-). But anyway.

If I would voice anything here then it is that the idea that ordinary 
users should be able to use all of the tools that are provided is what 
is holding Linux back. Ordinary users cannot use all the tools that are 
provided.


They shouldn't be blamed for not knowing how to use the system. Take 
some of the blame yourself, and make it easier for them.


That's all I can say.

Installing the required keyboard software for Taiwanese should not 
require any effort or knowhow. That's all I can say.


Saying that it is "possible to configure it" is not good enough for an 
ordinary user and also not good enough to make an inroad in some market.


That's all, bye.

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Re: Ubuntu in Chinese for Taiwan - Ubuntu-devel-discuss Digest, Vol 121, Issue 3

[JMZ]

On 12/06/2016 10:21 AM, Jesse Steele wrote:


As I understand, current Ubuntu users are sophisticated types like 
super-geeks, engineers, and professors. They probably provide most 
input for Ubuntu's knowledge base, but there is no reason Ubuntu can't 
work for normal Taiwanese.


This perception you note is certainly the case in North America, and 
likely in other cultures.  Part of the difficulty of "selling" younger 
adults on Linux is, in the main, bash.  In the late 1980's I began 
computing with my school's C64s and later 80286.  A twentysomething 
today likely didn't learn about computers through assembly code projects 
etc.  I acclimated quickly to bash given my past experiences.  Today, 
there is no past.




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Re: Ubuntu in Chinese for Taiwan - Ubuntu-devel-discuss Digest, Vol 121, Issue 3

[Gunnar Hjalmarsson]

Hi Jesse,

On 2016-12-06 16:21, Jesse Steele wrote:

In road maps, Taiwanese would love to see a GCIN option at Mandarin
install... or... GCIN's workflow as an option for IBUS and FCITX.


As I said, gcin is an option, even if it's not integrated in the Ubuntu 
desktop in the same manner as IBus and Fcitx. Since I don't speak 
Chinese I'm not able to tell how well it works.



With Taiwan making news recently, I want to express: Taiwan's market
is ripe for Ubuntu, but they just don't know it exists! Typing input
was one hurtle. But, also is just general awareness. The Ubuntu
community and Taiwan need help knowing each other more.

As I understand, current Ubuntu users are sophisticated types like
super-geeks, engineers, and professors. They probably provide most
input for Ubuntu's knowledge base, but there is no reason Ubuntu
can't work for normal Taiwanese.

I am doing my small part to get the secret out about Ubuntu and
open-source apps at verb.ink and its YouTube Channel. I believe if
Taiwan learns about Ubuntu, they could reach near saturation in two
years because that's how Taiwan does things. (It went that fast with
Facebook.) That would be a big boost for Ubuntu and open-source.


I think that Ubuntu users in many countries share the picture above. You 
know what, I think you should get in touch with the local Ubuntu 
community in Taiwan.


http://loco.ubuntu.com/teams/ubuntu-tw/

Also, the ubuntu-community-team mailing list is a way to share 
experiences and ideas with other local communities.


https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-community-team

This mailing list is for discussing Ubuntu development, and probably not 
the most suitable place for this discussion.



PS I plan to test GCIN on a few Ubuntu distros soon.


Excellent.

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https://launchpad.net/~gunnarhj

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Re: Ubuntu in Chinese for Taiwan - Ubuntu-devel-discuss Digest, Vol 121, Issue 3

[Jesse Steele]

Dear all,

I generally think this is mosty an issue of general awareness. A few 
months ago, the Ubuntu team said my idea has been noted, thank you.


Again, organizationally, Taiwanese 1. use "traditional" Chinese, same as 
Hong Kong and all markets other than China. 2. Better or worse, 
Taiwanese learned to speed-type bopomofo (zhuin/chewing) Mandarin in 
Windows and that speed-typing only works with GCIN's layout, for now... 
[wink]


In road maps, Taiwanese would love to see a GCIN option at Mandarin 
install... or... GCIN's workflow as an option for IBUS and FCITX.


With Taiwan making news recently, I want to express: Taiwan's market is 
ripe for Ubuntu, but they just don't know it exists! Typing input was 
one hurtle. But, also is just general awareness. The Ubuntu community 
and Taiwan need help knowing each other more.


As I understand, current Ubuntu users are sophisticated types like 
super-geeks, engineers, and professors. They probably provide most input 
for Ubuntu's knowledge base, but there is no reason Ubuntu can't work 
for normal Taiwanese.


I am doing my small part to get the secret out about Ubuntu and 
open-source apps at verb.ink and its YouTube Channel. I believe if 
Taiwan learns about Ubuntu, they could reach near saturation in two 
years because that's how Taiwan does things. (It went that fast with 
Facebook.) That would be a big boost for Ubuntu and open-source.


I'm here if anyone wants to ask me questions or improve my work at 
verb.ink and related projects. Thank you so much for being approachable. 
This forum is now my number one reason I prefer Ubuntu.


Jesse Steele

PS I plan to test GCIN on a few Ubuntu distros soon. EVERYONE seems 
swamped with work these days—at least good people anyway. Don't quit.



On 12/04/2016 08:00 PM, ubuntu-devel-discuss-requ...@lists.ubuntu.com wrote:

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Today's Topics:

1. Re: Ubuntu in Chinese for Taiwan (Jesse Steele)


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Message: 1
Date: Sun, 4 Dec 2016 18:54:12 +0800
From: Jesse Steele 
To: Gunnar Hjalmarsson ,
ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com
Subject: Re: Ubuntu in Chinese for Taiwan
Message-ID: <1810284e-ded5-68bf-43c7-6e34097f0...@jessesteele.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed

Thank you. I will be testing it soon. I haven't had time yet.


On 12/02/2016 02:35 AM, Gunnar Hjalmarsson wrote:

On 10/25/2016 03:58 PM, Gunnar Hjalmarsson wrote:

On 2016-10-24 19:43, Jesse Steele wrote:

gcin worked in 15.10 Unity but hid under the app search fuzz, broke
as of 16.04 Unity, still broke; worked in 16.04 GNOME, but GNOME's
Chinese packages completely broke around October and have to
install that long list manually.

There may be flavor specific issues. Anyway, as already said:

https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/gcin/+filebug

A gcin issue reported in  has been
fixed now. It may or may not be relevant to the problem mentioned above.





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