Re: Hibernate and Restriced Drivers (Was: 4 More days...)
On Tue, Oct 16, 2007 at 09:33:22PM +0200, Paulus Esterhazy wrote: This bug, or this group of bugs, will be a source of annoyance to many users. Basically, when you use restricted drivers (both NVidia and ATI), your system will fail to resume from hibernation most of the time. As restricted drivers are enabled by default, this should be considered a regression from feisty. They are? I hope this doesn't sound ungrateful. Ubuntu developers are doing a very good job overall, and dealing with binary blobs isn't an easy task. It's alright to know that something is broken right now, but it's worrying to have the impression that no solution is in the offing at all. I'd love to see some sort of Hibernation team created that tries to tackle the problem in a systematic way. I've tried. We can't. The lack of source means we have absolutely no idea what these drivers do over suspend/resume, and there's no way to figure out what we should be doing in response. The long-term solution involves moving modesetting and video initialisation into the kernel, but I strongly suspect that that will end up breaking the binary drivers for a significant period of time until they adjust. I don't see any way we can make this work properly within the next 18 months. -- Matthew Garrett | [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Hibernate and Restriced Drivers (Was: 4 More days...)
On 10/18/07, Matthew Garrett [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Tue, Oct 16, 2007 at 09:33:22PM +0200, Paulus Esterhazy wrote: [snip] I hope this doesn't sound ungrateful. Ubuntu developers are doing a very good job overall, and dealing with binary blobs isn't an easy task. It's alright to know that something is broken right now, but it's worrying to have the impression that no solution is in the offing at all. I'd love to see some sort of Hibernation team created that tries to tackle the problem in a systematic way. I've tried. We can't. The lack of source means we have absolutely no idea what these drivers do over suspend/resume, and there's no way to figure out what we should be doing in response. The long-term solution involves moving modesetting and video initialisation into the kernel, but I strongly suspect that that will end up breaking the binary drivers for a significant period of time until they adjust. I don't see any way we can make this work properly within the next 18 months. And then there'll be excellent open-source drivers for ATI. We cross our fingers. Hugo Heden -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: 4 More days...
On Oct 16, 2007, at 2:06 AM, Scott (angrykeyboarder) wrote: ... I've been running Gutsy for a little over two months now. In part because I wanted to help out. But it's quite disheartening to file bug reports (some of which are seemly serious) only to find that they don't merit any kind of response other than undecided for days (or perhaps weeks) on end. ... There are more people reporting bugs than evaluating new bug reports. And there are, in turn, more people evaluating new bug reports than actually fixing the bugs. The more popular Ubuntu becomes, the bigger both of those disparities will become. So if you're interested in helping out, one route would be to join the Bug Squad. https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BugSquad/GettingInvolved After that you could find ways to encourage others to join the Bug Squad, and/or find ways to make Bug Squad members more efficient. Another route would be to become an Ubuntu developer. https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopers After that you could find ways to encourage others to become developers, and/or find ways to make developers more efficient. Cheers -- Matthew Paul Thomas http://mpt.net.nz/ PGP.sig Description: This is a digitally signed message part -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Hibernate and Restriced Drivers (Was: 4 More days...)
Hello developers, There's the decision to ship with a kernel that breaks suspend/resume on any machine using ATI proprietary drivers (and Nvidia I think, but by that point we'd rolled a custom kernel to fix the Ubuntu breakage). This bug, or this group of bugs, will be a source of annoyance to many users. Basically, when you use restricted drivers (both NVidia and ATI), your system will fail to resume from hibernation most of the time. As restricted drivers are enabled by default, this should be considered a regression from feisty. See for example #34043, which I think is still valid for most NVidia users, or #151471 for a more recent incarnation. Sometimes, following the instructions of: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/NvidiaLaptopBinaryDriverSuspend will help make it work, but often it doesn't. What this means is that suspend won't work out of the box in Ubuntu any more. (And if you try anyway it crashes, with the possibility of data loss). (See [1]) I hope this doesn't sound ungrateful. Ubuntu developers are doing a very good job overall, and dealing with binary blobs isn't an easy task. It's alright to know that something is broken right now, but it's worrying to have the impression that no solution is in the offing at all. I'd love to see some sort of Hibernation team created that tries to tackle the problem in a systematic way. Thanks Paulus (who loves Gutsy otherwise) [1] http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=564658 -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: 4 More days...
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Oh, just let me wave my magic wand, and fix it all! Yay for unproductive mails! Sometimes i wish even ubuntu-devel-discuss was moderated, so we don't get utterly useless mails like this. Scott (angrykeyboarder) wrote: till the release of the most bug-ridden Ubuntu release yet (unless the devs go into overdrive in the next few days)! -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFHExq17/o1b30rzoURAuKmAKCgFl3Xjz9fuQS9q079qn/PV6fZugCgqffY 2j8acIxgZnNTTfCH0FjrgqY= =ebtF -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: 4 More days...
On 10/15/07, Martin Owens [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It seems that there are always going to be people who are frustrated by one thing or another. Lets hope that Don Kelly can find the time to work out his problems and let us know what the problems where. Unless your providing real answers or important questions I don't know why Don should email on this list. Ummm... I don't have any problems, I was just wondering what bugs that Scott (angrykeyboarder) was seeing. I think you're responding to the wrong e-mail. Don K/ -- karfai [AT] gmail.com http://www.strangeware.ca http://beyondtheedge.blogspot.com -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: 4 More days...
Onno Benschop spake thusly: On 15/10/07 07:31, Scott (angrykeyboarder) wrote: till the release of the most bug-ridden Ubuntu release yet (unless the devs go into overdrive in the next few days)! I have to say that I was quite offended by your statement. It's not constructive in any way and it does not reflect the amount of effort, both paid and unpaid, put in by the community. I'm infamous for opening mouth and inserting foot and I tend to fly off the handle (irrationally at times - hence my nickname). I don't deny that a lot of people have put a lot of effort into this release as they always do. Perhaps the problem isn;'t so much the bugs themselves but the responses (or lack thereof) from devs to the bugs. And I want to see Ubuntu succeed. I play with several distros and any given time (in virtual machines) but Ubuntu is my base system. Why, because despite it's shortcomings i still best meets my needs. And I'm generally impressed with the community (despite my perceived statements to the contrary). If you're frustrated with the development process perhaps you should find another way to contribute to its success. I've been running Gutsy for a little over two months now. In part because I wanted to help out. But it's quite disheartening to file bug reports (some of which are seemly serious) only to find that they don't merit any kind of response other than undecided for days (or perhaps weeks) on end. I realize that most bugs are rather trivial in the big scheme of things, but bugs that affect everyday operation of the system (or of widely regularly used applications - e.g. those in main) are something else). And in case anyone was wondering.. No, I'm not just speaking of bug reports I've filed (or added to). I've browsed through a number of others and found they garnered little or no response other than undecided as well. I get more constructive response on my bug reports from devs to on this mailing list than I do in the bug reports themselves. What's wrong with this picture? -- Scott http://angrykeyboarder.com ©2007 angrykeyboarder™ Elmer Fudd. All Wites Wesewved -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: 4 More days...
John Dong spake thusly on 317253208 :: This is not very constructive. All of us here put our heart and effort into the distro and comments like this don't help. Exactly what things are bug-ridden that need attention? It's one thing to raise awareness of last-minute important bugs, but this seems to be nothing more than flamebait It wasn't meant as flamebait. It was my foolish way of venting pent-up frustration (see my replies to others in this thread). -- Scott http://angrykeyboarder.com ©2007 angrykeyboarder™ Elmer Fudd. All Wites Wesewved -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: 4 More days...
Matthew Garrett spake thusly: With the exception of the Thunderbird and timidity issues (and I can't reproduce the timidity one here at all), every bug you've responded to in gutsy appears to be down to your issue with Hal. And, judging by the log there, your system was entirely broken: 03:13:09.373 [W] ids.c:294: Couldn't stat pci.ids file '/usr/share/misc/pci.ids', errno=13: Permission denied 03:13:09.373 [W] ids.c:515: Couldn't stat usb.ids file '/usr/share/misc/usb.ids', errno=13: Permission denied 03:13:09.373 [E] osspec.c:310: Unable to inotify_add_watch() for '/usr/share/hal/fdi/preprobe': Permission denied indicates either filesystem corruption or that something has heavily screwed with the permissions. It certainly doesn't look anything like a hal bug. What are you actually complaining about? I'm a lowly user who only knows somewhat more than the average Joe, but is pretty much in the dark about a lot of this stuff. In fact, I can read descriptions of programs like hal and dbus and still not fully grasp their purpose. Bearing that in mind, there are plenty out there who know a fraction of what I do. They are the ones Ubuntu is catering to by all the (very nice and convenient I might add) apps that give little reason for new users to ever open a terminal. But I digress All of this stuff you quoted from my report is utter gibberish to me. I do understand permission denied and found that quite odd and that alone told me that something wasn't right. I had no way of knowing what the problem was other than it seemed related to HAL because only when attempting to upgrade to a new version of HAL did that problem rear it's head. If it was a filesystem corruption or messed up permissions, then it only seemed to be affecting the installation of HAL. You know how many updates there are on a given day. Well virtually all of them went without a hitch (they now number in the hundreds I'm sure). The ones that didn't were generally due to a conflict in a package that shared the same file with other (something I've noticed in a number of KDE apps from time to time over the past few years). There are easy workarounds for those (although I wouldn't have known that a few years ago). So up until your response here I had no reason to believe it was anything but a corrupt installation of HAL. And the only thing that could have caused that based on my own behavior is a corrupt package or packages or maybe a broken install or corrupt download or something similar. I had no way of knowing if the problem was on your end, my end or en route... Now... I thank you for the helpful information you have given me today but I have to ask... Why (as of this writing) is this not mentioned in the bug itself? Wouldn't that have been the place it should have gone to begin with? Since you're a developer and you took a look at my bug and came to that conclusion, why not add that information to the bug rather than here? This is one example of how poor communication with regard to bug reports can be a big cause of frustration. And the bug in question was only bolstered by the me too comments that followed. As well as a very similar bug I happened upon earlier today when I was browsing HAL-related bugs. From all appearances (as of this writing) that bug report is STILL undecided. Isn't that a tad odd? As far as the Thunderbird issue was concerned, I know it's minor in the scheme of things and therefore the bug will probably be in the same state 3 months from now as it is today... Frustrating? Yes. Important in the big scheme of things? No, not really, but it was sort of like throwing gasoline on a (my) fire at this point. As luck would have it, Feisty missed the cutoff for Thunderbird 2.0 by a matter of a few weeks, so I'd been looking forward to using Ubuntu's version once again (I used Mozilla's instead - why wait 5 months when you don't have to). So it looks like I'll be back to square one there. Again, minor in the big scheme of things, but not to this user. Oh and as far as timidity, goes - definitely minor. I barely remember even filing the bug. I do try to help out when I can by filling bugs though so that's why it was there. At the time it was a problem. I've not even reinstalled it when I did a clean install recently. There are several other annoying bugs out there that I've just not had the time or patience to file (or add to). But they are more fuel to the fire. And why would Ubuntu or Kubuntu include a default install of a desktop search application that seems to do more harm that good? I've yet to hear anybody sing the praises of Beagle/Kerry (or strigi as is now the case of Kubuntu - they went from one bad one to another). But I'll save that for comments on what I'm sure are existing (but probably undecided bugs as we only have a few days to go). *sigh* -- Scott http://angrykeyboarder.com I've never used an OS I didn't (dis)like. ©2007
Re: 4 More days...
On Tue, 2007-10-16 at 01:04 +1000, David MacKinnon wrote: On 10/15/07, John Dong [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: This is not very constructive. All of us here put our heart and effort into the distro and comments like this don't help. Exactly what things are bug-ridden that need attention? It's one thing to raise awareness of last-minute important bugs, but this seems to be nothing more than flamebait Off the top of my head, there's a cryptsetup bug (arguable a udev bug) If you can successfully argue why it's a udev bug, why is this argument not in the bug and why is the bug still marked Incomplete ? Scott -- Scott James Remnant [EMAIL PROTECTED] signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: 4 More days...
On 10/16/07, Scott James Remnant [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If you can successfully argue why it's a udev bug, why is this argument not in the bug and why is the bug still marked Incomplete ? https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/udev/+bug/132373 I didn't, I filed against cryptsetup which you can see in the bug report. Reinhard did. Neither I, nor users really care where the bug is, but the fact is there is a bug, there's a workaround patch that's been sitting in launchpad for months and not applied. -David Scott -- Scott James Remnant [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: 4 More days...
On 10/16/07, Scott James Remnant [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: You mentioned udev in your mailing list post -- clearly you have some reason to suspect it should be fixed there, otherwise why mention it all? Because the other person in the bug thought so enough to ask the udev maintainers opinion, which was never given? -David Scott -- Scott James Remnant [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: 4 More days...
On Tue, 2007-10-16 at 03:46 +1000, David MacKinnon wrote: On 10/16/07, Scott James Remnant [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: You mentioned udev in your mailing list post -- clearly you have some reason to suspect it should be fixed there, otherwise why mention it all? Because the other person in the bug thought so enough to ask the udev maintainers opinion, which was never given? The udev maintainer (me) has an unanswered question on the bug ... which is why I was a bit miffed that you were blaming udev when the maintainer clearly hasn't got the information he needs. Scott -- Scott James Remnant [EMAIL PROTECTED] signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: 4 More days...
Sarah Hobbs spake thusly : Oh, just let me wave my magic wand, and fix it all! Good luck. There are scads of bugs with Undecided status on them. You've got your work cut out for you even with that magic wand. Yay for unproductive mails! My first productive email here was completely ignored. Sometimes i wish even ubuntu-devel-discuss was moderated, so we don't get utterly useless mails like this. Yes, well you can't always get what you want and neither can I. :) -- Scott http://angrykeyboarder.com ©2007 angrykeyboarder™ Elmer Fudd. All Wites Wesewved -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: 4 More days...
I understand your frustration -- I too have reported bugs that have not seen a resolution. It's bound to happen, on a distribution where the users far outnumber the developers. There's a finite number of developers and they are doing the best that they can. You seem to be implying that all the developers are just sitting around, slacking off, and doing nothing, which is simply inaccurate. Also, having programming or computer science knowledge is not a requirement for helping out with the bug tracker scene. Why not try to triage some bugs? I'm sure you've been using Ubuntu long enough to have an understanding of what is a valid bug, and what is user error or a duplicate of some other bug. Performing these elementary triaging tasks frees up time that more programming-oriented developers would be spending doing this, not to mention it makes the entire bugtracker cleaner, thus developers can easily see bugs that are valid and can be fixed. If you have any other constructive solutions or suggestions, we'd be more than happy to hear them out. Otherwise, we are all just wasting time -- you writing these e-mails, us reading/replying to them. Time that can be better spent doing more productive things. Regards, John On Mon, Oct 15, 2007 at 06:50:46AM -0700, Scott (angrykeyboarder) wrote: It wasn't meant as flamebait. It was my foolish way of venting pent-up frustration (see my replies to others in this thread). -- Scott signature.asc Description: Digital signature -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: 4 More days...
In [EMAIL PROTECTED] on Tue, 16 Oct 2007 03:25:36 +, Scott spake thusly: On a related note, the last comment (as of this writing) in thhis bug is a week old and it's from none other than Richard. He asks So are we pushing a gutsy release next without this patched anywhere? Well Richard, since your question has been ignored, I'll do my best to answer it for you. Oops.. I meant David (not Richard). -- Scott http://angrykeyboarder.com I've never used an OS I didn't (dis)like. ©2007 angrykeyboarder™ Elmer Fudd. All Wites Wesewved -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: 4 More days...
On Monday 15 October 2007 23:10, Scott (angrykeyboarder) wrote: Sarah Hobbs spake thusly : Yay for unproductive mails! My first productive email here was completely ignored. That's a step up from this one. You're unignored, but certainly not making progress on getting stuff fixed. I will tell you that, for me personally, your mail has made me significantly less interested in looking at your bugs. I've got enough pleasant things to spend my free time on that I really don't need this sort of thing. Scott K -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: 4 More days...
Really? I haven't been paying too much attention this time around. I was planning to upgrade once the release comes out. Is there a website which lists all of these bugs so that I can figure out which to avoid or, at least, which affect me? DonK/ On 10/14/07, Scott (angrykeyboarder) [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: till the release of the most bug-ridden Ubuntu release yet (unless the devs go into overdrive in the next few days)! -- Scott http://angrykeyboarder.com (c)2007 angrykeyboarder™ Elmer Fudd. All Wites Wesewved -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss -- karfai [AT] gmail.com http://www.strangeware.ca http://beyondtheedge.blogspot.com -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: 4 More days...
On 15/10/07 07:31, Scott (angrykeyboarder) wrote: till the release of the most bug-ridden Ubuntu release yet (unless the devs go into overdrive in the next few days)! I have to say that I was quite offended by your statement. It's not constructive in any way and it does not reflect the amount of effort, both paid and unpaid, put in by the community. If you're frustrated with the development process perhaps you should find another way to contribute to its success. -- Onno Benschop Connected via Optus B3 at S31°54'06 - E115°50'39 (Yokine, WA) -- ()/)/)()..ASCII for Onno.. |?..EBCDIC for Onno.. --- -. -. --- ..Morse for Onno.. ITmaze - ABN: 56 178 057 063 - ph: 04 1219 - [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: 4 More days...
With the exception of the Thunderbird and timidity issues (and I can't reproduce the timidity one here at all), every bug you've responded to in gutsy appears to be down to your issue with Hal. And, judging by the log there, your system was entirely broken: 03:13:09.373 [W] ids.c:294: Couldn't stat pci.ids file '/usr/share/misc/pci.ids', errno=13: Permission denied 03:13:09.373 [W] ids.c:515: Couldn't stat usb.ids file '/usr/share/misc/usb.ids', errno=13: Permission denied 03:13:09.373 [E] osspec.c:310: Unable to inotify_add_watch() for '/usr/share/hal/fdi/preprobe': Permission denied indicates either filesystem corruption or that something has heavily screwed with the permissions. It certainly doesn't look anything like a hal bug. What are you actually complaining about? -- Matthew Garrett | [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: 4 More days...
This is not very constructive. All of us here put our heart and effort into the distro and comments like this don't help. Exactly what things are bug-ridden that need attention? It's one thing to raise awareness of last-minute important bugs, but this seems to be nothing more than flamebait John On Sun, Oct 14, 2007 at 04:31:10PM -0700, Scott (angrykeyboarder) wrote: till the release of the most bug-ridden Ubuntu release yet (unless the devs go into overdrive in the next few days)! signature.asc Description: Digital signature -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: 4 More days...
On 14/10/2007, John Dong [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: This is not very constructive. All of us here put our heart and effort into the distro and comments like this don't help. Exactly what things are bug-ridden that need attention? It's one thing to raise awareness of last-minute important bugs, but this seems to be nothing more than flamebait It seems that there are always going to be people who are frustrated by one thing or another. Lets hope that Don Kelly can find the time to work out his problems and let us know what the problems where. Unless your providing real answers or important questions I don't know why Don should email on this list. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
