Activate Desktop-Effects: Yes/No-Button?
Hello, most users welcome the decision to activate Compiz by default. But others are a little bit unhappy with it [1][2]. So I suggest that you will ask if Compiz should be activated after the installation. Show a little window that explains in a few details what Compiz is and ask the user if he want to activate it (if his card supports the feature). I think you will make more users happy with this question than activate Compiz on PCs where the users do not want to have it. (And yes, there are some of these guys out there.) Greetings, Dominik PS: And yes, I know that you can deactivate Compiz with a few clicks, but why do not let the user decide? [1] http://forum.ubuntuusers.de/topic/115492/ (German) [2] http://forum.ubuntuusers.de/topic/117463/ (German) -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Activate Desktop-Effects: Yes/No-Button?
I second that, it's quite non-intrusive and can be seen (or rather is) a one-time installation option per new user. On 9/27/07, Dominik Wagenfuehr <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Hello, > > most users welcome the decision to activate Compiz by default. But > others are a little bit unhappy with it [1][2]. So I suggest that you > will ask if Compiz should be activated after the installation. Show a > little window that explains in a few details what Compiz is and ask the > user if he want to activate it (if his card supports the feature). > I think you will make more users happy with this question than activate > Compiz on PCs where the users do not want to have it. (And yes, there > are some of these guys out there.) > > Greetings, Dominik > > PS: And yes, I know that you can deactivate Compiz with a few clicks, > but why do not let the user decide? > > [1] http://forum.ubuntuusers.de/topic/115492/ (German) > [2] http://forum.ubuntuusers.de/topic/117463/ (German) > > > -- > Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list > Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com > Modify settings or unsubscribe at: > https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss > -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Activate Desktop-Effects: Yes/No-Button?
hi, Am Donnerstag, den 27.09.2007, 10:25 +0200 schrieb Milosz Derezynski: > I second that, it's quite non-intrusive and can be seen (or rather is) > a one-time installation option per new user. i wouldnt call something you punch into the face of every new user nonitrusive ... note that compiz wont be used if the HW doesnt support it. ciao oli signature.asc Description: Dies ist ein digital signierter Nachrichtenteil -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Activate Desktop-Effects: Yes/No-Button?
Hi, (resending... why do mails not get to the ML, automatically?) On 9/27/07, Dominik Wagenfuehr <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > PS: And yes, I know that you can deactivate Compiz with a few clicks, > but why do not let the user decide? Even without that question the user can still decide: Just deactivate Compiz. ;) But you already mentioned the main reason yourself: Most users are happy with Compiz being enabled. Do you want to annoy all of them with a question just to make a minority of users happy? With that reasoning we could easily expand this to 1000 questions, letting the user choose everything... Contrary to what some people make us belive, many consumers don't even want to have a lot of choice in *all* situations of their life (there have been studies on the negative psychological effects of too much choice in our modern world). The stereotypical view "choice = good, no choice = bad" is not as black&white as many people seem to believe. There is something between "lots of choice" and "no choice" and, as you said, most people prefer a shiny interface over a boring one. In some countries (esp. the USA) the ridiculous equation "choice = freedom" has emerged (and sometimes basically "enslaved" us), but it's too simple to capture the real meaning behind it which is something similar to: "freedom+happyness" means to have the *possibility* to choose and then get what you want. >From a different point of view, "freedom" means the freedom to *NOT* have to choose and not be bothered with choice unless we choose to have choice (I hope this makes it clear that the issue is more complex than some might think ;). In this case, this is only guaranteed if you don't ask the user and let those who want to disable Compiz just do that. I hope this will some day become a philosophy in the open-source world (it's only a small, but important step towards better usability). Ideally, we'd only be presented with *essential* choice and then have something like a search interface for getting a list of options for *anything* when we want that choice. Regards, Waldemar Kornewald -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Activate Desktop-Effects: Yes/No-Button?
Was my mail cut in the middle? On 9/27/07, Waldemar Kornewald <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Hi, (resending... why do mails not get to the ML, automatically?) > > On 9/27/07, Dominik Wagenfuehr <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > PS: And yes, I know that you can deactivate Compiz with a few clicks, > > but why do not let the user decide? > > Even without that question the user can still decide: Just deactivate Compiz. > ;) > > But you already mentioned the main reason yourself: Most users are > happy with Compiz being enabled. Do you want to annoy all of them with > a question just to make a minority of users happy? With that reasoning > we could easily expand this to 1000 questions, letting the user choose > everything... > > Contrary to what some people make us belive, many consumers don't even > want to have a lot of choice in *all* situations of their life (there > have been studies on the negative psychological effects of too much > choice in our modern world). The stereotypical view "choice = good, no > choice = bad" is not as black&white as many people seem to believe. > There is something between "lots of choice" and "no choice" and, as > you said, most people prefer a shiny interface over a boring one. In > some countries (esp. the USA) the ridiculous equation "choice = > freedom" has emerged (and sometimes basically "enslaved" us), but it's > too simple to capture the real meaning behind it which is something > similar to: "freedom+happyness" means to have the *possibility* to > choose and then get what you want. > > From a different point of view, "freedom" means the freedom to *NOT* > have to choose and not be bothered with choice unless we choose to > have choice (I hope this makes it clear that the issue is more complex > than some might think ;). > > In this case, this is only guaranteed if you don't ask the user and > let those who want to disable Compiz just do that. > > I hope this will some day become a philosophy in the open-source world > (it's only a small, but important step towards better usability). > Ideally, we'd only be presented with *essential* choice and then have > something like a search interface for getting a list of options for > *anything* when we want that choice. > > Regards, > Waldemar Kornewald -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Activate Desktop-Effects: Yes/No-Button?
> Even without that question the user can still decide: Just deactivate Compiz. ;) The reason is that many people do not trust you (I know, blasphemy. ;)) that you will catch all non working cards. I think the worst marketing for Ubuntu is a shiny new Compiz-desktop - that won't even start the OS. > Contrary to what some people make us belive, many consumers don't even > want to have a lot of choice in *all* situations of their life (there > have been studies on the negative psychological effects of too much > choice in our modern world). In the last time I often read Ubuntu reviews that say that this is some of the bad things of Ubuntu. You really have no real choice what you install in Ubuntu without much experience (and a server-install without GUI). Of course there are some distributions like Mandrake (a few years ago) where you can choose every single program. This is an overkill! But I think Compiz is a whole new window manager that should replace the standard Metacity of GNOME. So maybe a little question isn't that bad. :) Greetings, Dominik -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Activate Desktop-Effects: Yes/No-Button?
On 27/09/07 16:32, Oliver Grawert wrote: > hi, > Am Donnerstag, den 27.09.2007, 10:25 +0200 schrieb Milosz Derezynski: > >> I second that, it's quite non-intrusive and can be seen (or rather is) >> a one-time installation option per new user. >> > i wouldnt call something you punch into the face of every new user > nonitrusive ... note that compiz wont be used if the HW doesnt support > it. > > ciao > oli > One of my clients sent me this quote about Choice: Choice causes indecision. Indecision causes uncertainty. Uncertainty causes doubt. Doubt causes animosity. Animosity causes rejection. Alex Polglaze 26/09/04 -- Onno Benschop Connected via Optus B3 at S31°54'06" - E115°50'39" (Yokine, WA) -- ()/)/)()..ASCII for Onno.. |>>?..EBCDIC for Onno.. --- -. -. --- ..Morse for Onno.. ITmaze - ABN: 56 178 057 063 - ph: 04 1219 - [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Activate Desktop-Effects: Yes/No-Button?
Alex wrote: > One of my clients sent me this quote about Choice: So maybe dictatorship is the only real form of government... This tends to be a little bit to political so back to topic please. But your client maybe does not want to have a choice. Many users want... This is the reason their choice of operating system is Linux... Greetings, Dominik -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Activate Desktop-Effects: Yes/No-Button?
On 9/27/07, Dominik Wagenfuehr <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Even without that question the user can still decide: Just deactivate > Compiz. ;) > > The reason is that many people do not trust you (I know, blasphemy. ;)) > that you will catch all non working cards. I think the worst marketing > for Ubuntu is a shiny new Compiz-desktop - that won't even start the OS. This is not an argument for an option. If the system won't even start with compiz enabled (which is, as far as I'm aware, extremely unlikely - compiz would need to not crash, but to spin endlessly) then having an option beforehand is Russian roulette. Are you feeling lucky, punk? > > Contrary to what some people make us belive, many consumers don't even > > want to have a lot of choice in *all* situations of their life (there > > have been studies on the negative psychological effects of too much > > choice in our modern world). > > In the last time I often read Ubuntu reviews that say that this is some > of the bad things of Ubuntu. You really have no real choice what you > install in Ubuntu without much experience (and a server-install without > GUI). Of course there are some distributions like Mandrake (a few years > ago) where you can choose every single program. This is an overkill! As far as I'm concerned, people who really, really want to select what they install are better off with a distribution that's not Ubuntu. That's what we *do*: working out of the box, sane defaults. It is easy enough to customize Ubuntu after install (with the advantage that you get to try-as-you-go, rather than having to make blind choices) that I don't believe that having more options during install is useful. We don't have to drive all the other distributions into oblivion. There really are people with different needs, and Ubuntu can not cater well for absolutely everybody. To try tends to result in disappointing everyone. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Activate Desktop-Effects: Yes/No-Button?
On 27/09/07 17:04, Dominik Wagenfuehr wrote: > Alex wrote: > > One of my clients sent me this quote about Choice: > > So maybe dictatorship is the only real form of government... > > This tends to be a little bit to political so back to topic please. But > your client maybe does not want to have a choice. Many users want... > This is the reason their choice of operating system is Linux... > > Greetings, Dominik > > Uhm, My point was that if you give people lots of choice they don't know what to choose. There was nothing political about my statement and it was specifically about giving a user a question that they needed to make a choice about an answer. You have to remember that more and more people are using Ubuntu. Many don't understand the difference between Windows and Linux, let alone the impact of choosing to activate Compiz or not. This proposed question about activating Compiz or not makes sense in a testing environment, but after that phase of development the code should be robust enough to figure out the correct answer, and if it's not robust enough, that means it wasn't tested widely enough. -- Onno Benschop Connected via Optus B3 at S31°54'06" - E115°50'39" (Yokine, WA) -- ()/)/)()..ASCII for Onno.. |>>?..EBCDIC for Onno.. --- -. -. --- ..Morse for Onno.. ITmaze - ABN: 56 178 057 063 - ph: 04 1219 - [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Activate Desktop-Effects: Yes/No-Button?
> My point was that if you give people lots of choice they don't know what > to choose. I know. :) But currently you have no choice at all with Ubuntu installation (concerning software installation). Or am I wrong? > This proposed question about activating Compiz or not makes sense in a > testing environment, but after that phase of development the code should > be robust enough to figure out the correct answer, and if it's not > robust enough, that means it wasn't tested widely enough. Ok, so I will trust you with this. :) To be honest: I don't care if Compiz is activated as default because I don't install it. ;) But I want to mention to the develeopers that there are some users that are not very lucky with the decision and just want to be asked. Let's hope, that you are right. :) Greetings, Dominik -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Activate Desktop-Effects: Yes/No-Button?
hi, Am Donnerstag, den 27.09.2007, 12:04 +0200 schrieb Dominik Wagenfuehr: > > My point was that if you give people lots of choice they don't know what > > to choose. > > I know. :) But currently you have no choice at all with Ubuntu > installation (concerning software installation). Or am I wrong? > if you have one of the 20-50 chipsets supporting compiz out of the box properly you have the choice to disable it in the appearance capplet ... if you dont have such a chipset you dont have the choice indeed since compiz will simply not find the composite extension and wont start :) out of four laptops, three desktop machines and about 20 thin clients i have two here where it works flawless, on all others it's properly and automatically disabled. ciao oli signature.asc Description: Dies ist ein digital signierter Nachrichtenteil -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Activate Desktop-Effects: Yes/No-Button?
On Thu, 2007-09-27 at 11:04 +0200, Dominik Wagenfuehr wrote: > Alex wrote: > > One of my clients sent me this quote about Choice: > > So maybe dictatorship is the only real form of government... > Benevolent dictatorship Scott -- Scott James Remnant [EMAIL PROTECTED] signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Activate Desktop-Effects: Yes/No-Button?
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Every time you bring up yet another icon, or yet another popup box (especially on startup), God kills a kitten. Please, think of the kittens! Let's not follow MS Windows' trends, here. Besides, compiz may grow on people - so they may only wish to turn it off after they've explored it a bit. Hobbsee Dominik Wagenfuehr wrote: > Hello, > > most users welcome the decision to activate Compiz by default. But > others are a little bit unhappy with it [1][2]. So I suggest that you > will ask if Compiz should be activated after the installation. Show a > little window that explains in a few details what Compiz is and ask the > user if he want to activate it (if his card supports the feature). > I think you will make more users happy with this question than activate > Compiz on PCs where the users do not want to have it. (And yes, there > are some of these guys out there.) > > Greetings, Dominik > > PS: And yes, I know that you can deactivate Compiz with a few clicks, > but why do not let the user decide? > > [1] http://forum.ubuntuusers.de/topic/115492/ (German) > [2] http://forum.ubuntuusers.de/topic/117463/ (German) > > -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFG+7Sm7/o1b30rzoURAlIrAJ9pzt3ZfpaNsdOyR8XWTLn7S0RwgQCgtlpl hTs+9baSPwhdaFPs3U5u+LA= =71Lj -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Activate Desktop-Effects: Yes/No-Button?
Hi, Dominik Wagenfuehr [2007-09-27 10:53 +0200]: > In the last time I often read Ubuntu reviews that say that this is some > of the bad things of Ubuntu. You really have no real choice what you > install in Ubuntu without much experience. This is not a bug, it is a design principle of Ubuntu: give the user a system that works without asking him questions many users cannot answer anyway. This "Just Works" philosophy is one of the strong points of Ubuntu, and often praised in the press and by users. Thus, by elimitating questions we provide by default what 90% of users want anyway, and keep the options for the remaining 10% that want something different. Also, it's not really true that you don't have a choice: gnome-app-install etc. make it really easy to install additional or different software. It is magnitudes easier than installing software in e. g. Windows or other commercial systems (where you have much less choice BTW: it often comes down to "Take it or leave it"). Pitti -- Martin Pitthttp://www.piware.de Ubuntu Developer http://www.ubuntu.com Debian Developer http://www.debian.org signature.asc Description: Digital signature -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Activate Desktop-Effects: Yes/No-Button?
On Thu, 2007-09-27 at 15:54 +0200, Martin Pitt wrote: > Thus, by elimitating questions we provide by default what 90% of users > want anyway, and keep the options for the remaining 10% that want > something different. > I prefer to think of it that we provide a desktop by default suitable for 100% of users, with options after installation to adjust its behaviour to their preference. (Anyone who decrees that they just *cannot* use click-to-focus is lying - they can use it perfectly well for long enough to change it to focus-follows-mouse :p) Scott -- Scott James Remnant [EMAIL PROTECTED] signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Activate Desktop-Effects: Yes/No-Button?
Dominik Wagenfuehr wrote: > most users welcome the decision to activate Compiz by default. But > others are a little bit unhappy with it [1][2]. Add me to the list of (currently) unhappy people. As soon as you have two displays connected, Compiz behaves very strange. Not even simple actions like maximizing Windows works correctly [1]. Also, the performance of the current Compiz default settings feels a bit lower than Metacity on my Dell X1 (Pentium M 1.1 GHz, Intel i915GMS). Extended effects are completely out of reach (mouse moves terribly sluggish). [1] https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/compiz/+bug/123205 Regards, Andreas -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
