Re: Are UI developers all left handed?

[Vincent Ladeuil]

> Dale Amon  writes:



> You will always know that if you write to screen coordinate 0,0, it
> will be visible. Anything beyond that is an unknown.

I.e. backwards compatibility. Nicely summarized.

In the same vein:

- http://www.snopes.com/history/american/gauge.asp

- because tapes were used in the first computers, you cannot add data at
  the beginning of a file, there was a physical constraint early on that
  blocked even the idea that the most recent data should be easier to
  access than the oldest (sometimes obsolete) one.

The url above give several examples explaining why some things are so
hard to change.

  Vincent

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Re: Are UI developers all left handed? (Dale Amon)

[Dale Amon]

On Sun, Aug 12, 2012 at 12:26:36PM -0600, Vernon Cole wrote:
> Then someone in Palo Alto hooked a mouse to a glass teletype, and the world
> changed again.
> 
> But the cursor still runs left to right, top to bottom.

The Parc group came along long after the days of the Infoton's
and Beehives that co-existed with our KSR's (and 026 and 029 punches)
on the PDP-10's and the 360/67 at CMU, and in any case the mouse was 
invented in 1963, it just did not get a good use until the late 70's. 
We still had a couple of the Parc machines around for game playing 
as late as 1983 I think.

I actually still had my own KSR as late as 1989, but I gave it
away before I moved over to Ireland. And yes, the first Glass
TTY's were indeed a direct emulation of the ASR/KSR TTY's. 

TTY => TeleTYpe, ie the ASR/KSR, just another example of how
immortal layers of technology are. 



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Re: Are UI developers all left handed? (Dale Amon)

[Vernon Cole]

> On Thu, Aug 09, 2012 at 07:01:47AM +0200, David Klasinc wrote:
> > >I can tell you the historical reasons. All windowing systems
> > >began with their coordinate systems with 0,0 in the upper left
> > >because that is where the scan lines begin. Lines are written
> > >from left to right, top to bottom.
> >
> > Why the top left corner? I believe that even those historical
> > reasons are there for a, hehe, reason.
> >
> > It has nothing to do with the hand movement and in which direction
> > it is easier to move the mouse. Honestly, moving mouse to the left
> > or to the right feels pretty much the same to me. We're moving a
> > relatively small and light mouse, we're not rowing a boat.
> >
> > Focus is the key here. We are more focused on the top left corner
> > because (most of us) read from left to right and from top to bottom.
> > That is why putting everything in that corner is completely natural
> > and most ergonomic.
>
> The historical reasons have nothing to do with human factors and
> everything to do with the details of an electron beam scan in a
> CRT. Beams go left to right, flyback and scan lines go top to bottom
> on each frame. All the electronics (remember these kind of units
> were around when a large integrated circuit had an 8 bit shift
> register and most were TTL 7400 series... I suspect some even
> predated TTL. Characters were in hardware. There was one character
> set. The origin was upper left, the origin of the electron beam
> scan.
>
> Now, perhaps someone can dig back into the 1930's or earlier and
> find a reason for CRT's being left to right and top to bottom, but
> in the time frames we are talking about it is simply that technology
> builds on things that work and rarely is it worth the effort to
> go back and redo decades of engineering from scratch.
>
> You will always know that if you write to screen coordinate 0,0, it
> will be visible. Anything beyond that is an unknown.
>

Well, CRT's probably went left to right, top to bottom, because Philo T.
Farsworth
was American, and therefor was used to reading and writing in that
direction.
(My son once had a crush on Philo's granddaughter, BTW -- she was right
handed.)

None of that had anything to do with computers, though. Most early computers
did not use CRTs, which were too expensive and didn't display enough
characters
(40 wide by 12 down) to be very useful.   "Real" computers used teletypes.

Bell ASR33 teletypewriters printed left to right, because they were designed
to use English, and because they were basically typewriters. The had upper
case only, with the ASCII character set in hardware -- steel hardware. The
repairman's most important tool was an oil can. There was no electronics,
only gears, levers, switches, motors, and electromagnets.

The carriage return (CR) button returned the print cylinder to the left
margin.
The line feed (LF) button scrolled the paper up one row, so the print went
down.
There was no backspace, form feed, or tab. These were inexpensive
machines, and that is why they were used for console devices on most
computers, and consequently, why the console device on your *nix box
today is still called a "tty".

"ASR" stands for "Automatic Send Receive" which means that these units
were equipped with a paper tape reader and punch. An operator could
pre-punch a tape offline, using the "Rubout" key for editing.  Rubout
(binary , or octal 377, nobody referred to 0xFF or decimal 256)
punched holes in all eight columns of the tape, which the receiving tty
would ignore by sputtering, but not advancing the carriage. (You could
manually
backspace the TAPE, just not the CARRIAGE).  The pre-punched tape was
then placed into the reader, and the tty connected to the telegraph line or
radio transmitter, and the message sent out.  This allowed the message
to be transmitted at the full 110 baud rate of the machine, preserving
valuable bandwidth, and far surpassing the fastest telegraphers.

These machines were easy to adapt for computer consoles, then.  The paper
tape
punch would happily punch binary information, and you learned to ignore the
gymnastics of the print cylinder as it rattled against the right margin
while the
binary tape was being produced.  The operator could then enter a short
"bootstrap"
program into the core memory using the binary switches on the console, and
the tape reader would load the working program automatically and (usually)
perfectly. It required less than 15 minutes to completely load a 4K word
BASIC
interpreter program.  [Using a PDP-8 with 12 bit words.] Once the
interpreter was
running, you could read your BASIC program in using a paper tape, and
modify it
line by line.  Then, by listing the program with the punch turned on, you
made a new
(edited) copy.

In interactive use, the Rubout key changed definitions. Rather than being
ignored,
it was used to substitute for the non-existent backspace key. The
interactive program
would echo a backslant, then one rubbed-out letter f

Re: Are UI developers all left handed?

[Dale Amon]

On Thu, Aug 09, 2012 at 07:01:47AM +0200, David Klasinc wrote:
> >I can tell you the historical reasons. All windowing systems
> >began with their coordinate systems with 0,0 in the upper left
> >because that is where the scan lines begin. Lines are written
> >from left to right, top to bottom.
> 
> Why the top left corner? I believe that even those historical
> reasons are there for a, hehe, reason.
> 
> It has nothing to do with the hand movement and in which direction
> it is easier to move the mouse. Honestly, moving mouse to the left
> or to the right feels pretty much the same to me. We're moving a
> relatively small and light mouse, we're not rowing a boat.
> 
> Focus is the key here. We are more focused on the top left corner
> because (most of us) read from left to right and from top to bottom.
> That is why putting everything in that corner is completely natural
> and most ergonomic.

The historical reasons have nothing to do with human factors and
everything to do with the details of an electron beam scan in a
CRT. Beams go left to right, flyback and scan lines go top to bottom
on each frame. All the electronics (remember these kind of units
were around when a large integrated circuit had an 8 bit shift
register and most were TTL 7400 series... I suspect some even
predated TTL. Characters were in hardware. There was one character
set. The origin was upper left, the origin of the electron beam
scan.

Now, perhaps someone can dig back into the 1930's or earlier and
find a reason for CRT's being left to right and top to bottom, but
in the time frames we are talking about it is simply that technology
builds on things that work and rarely is it worth the effort to
go back and redo decades of engineering from scratch.

You will always know that if you write to screen coordinate 0,0, it
will be visible. Anything beyond that is an unknown.

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Re: Are UI developers all left handed?

[Chris Jones]

On 10/08/12 22:00, ubuntu-devel-discuss-requ...@lists.ubuntu.com wrote:

Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2012 18:04:12 +0200
From: Davyd McColl 
Finally, the first piece of unbiased, non-inflammatory, useful content on
this entire thread.
Why designers seem to consider it their duty to force everyone to embrace
their
paradigm is beyond me. Set up sane (or your preferable, if you like)
defaults and
let the user decide.



I think it's a common mentality for developers to believe that their way 
is the better way.



Regards

Chris Jones

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Re: Are UI developers all left handed?

[Dotan Cohen]

On Wed, Aug 8, 2012 at 9:35 PM, Felix Miata  wrote:
> Sadly obvious. If you've not studiously watched people over 50 or 80 try to
> use a computer you should. Then you should be able to discover some
> important realities about UI usability.
>

I would like to emphasise this. Usability cannot be learned by
watching people who have no usability issues. Usability is learned
from watching the people who struggle. Making the system usable by
them will make it more usable to everybody, even those who wouldn't
notice.

Effective usability will never be done in big changes that can be
vaunted in blog posts. Effective usability is done in hundreds or
thousands of tiny changes, each of which individually contributes
negligibly, but together form a whole.

-- 
Dotan Cohen

http://gibberish.co.il
http://what-is-what.com

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Re: Are UI developers all left handed?

[Jordon Bedwell]

On 08/09/2012 10:08 AM, Conscious User wrote:
> (2) when the hands return from the keyboard to the mouse,
> they frequently do it to access GUI elements that are usually
> on the left in most DEs.

This could be wishful thinking, the address bar extends across the
screen so you are assuming they always hit the left.  The search bar is
on the right, not the left and in Chrome it's the address bar.  The
close button on Windows (the biggest OS) are on the right, not the left.
 The only time they hit the bottom left or the upper left is when they
don't know a key command (which is rare since the vast majority know the
majors like F5, back and forward and the majors in most any text editor)
or when they need to open up an app, but as you already implied they
repeat the same tasks over and over again so that is still a rare occurance.

It could be just a conincidence but perhaps they chose a left biased
design because the human eye is naturally biased towards the left,
whether you read ltr or rtl, it's built into humans and it's also built
into dogs.  A lot of people don't notice but people tend to look left
before right... actually some people if they pay attention might find
that it's easier to move your eye to the left than the right, no matter
who they are, because again, it's built in. Yeah ergnomically it does
not fit, but visually it does.

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Re: Are UI developers all left handed?

[Conscious User]

Em 09-08-2012 11:30, Felix Miata escreveu:
Dolts make that argument. People shop and bank online, and fill out 
other web forms as well. No small number create email rather than just 
reading it or re-forwarding jokes and pr0n forwarded to themselves. 
Some even use them for business and run LibreOffice to create snail 
mail, manuscripts and other things a mouse cannot create, and various 
other apps to create such mundane things as web content.


The important is not really whether people use the keyboard or
not, but rather if

(1) the average user does it frequently enough for the effects
of inertia when returning to the mouse be relevant, like it was
suggested.

(2) when the hands return from the keyboard to the mouse,
they frequently do it to access GUI elements that are usually
on the left in most DEs.

I'm just guessing, but neither seems likely to me.


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Re: Are UI developers all left handed?

[John Moser]

On Thu, Aug 9, 2012 at 10:30 AM, Felix Miata  wrote:
> On 2012/08/09 10:37 (GMT-0300) Conscious User composed:
>
>
>> So the point only seems mostly relevant in two situations: when the
>> person has just arrived on the computer and when the person was
>> typing. The first case does not seem to be statistically significant.
>> The second is valid, but prioritizing it seems strange since a very
>> common argument against Unity and Shell is "ZOMG YOU ARE
>> FORCING ME TO TYPE AND TYPING IS FOR NERDY GEEKY DORKS
>> AND NORMAL PEOPLE NEVER TYPE ANYTHING, EVER EVER EVER".
>
>
> Dolts make that argument. People shop and bank online, and fill out other
> web forms as well. No small number create email rather than just reading it
> or re-forwarding jokes and pr0n forwarded to themselves. Some even use them
> for business and run LibreOffice to create snail mail, manuscripts and other
> things a mouse cannot create, and various other apps to create such mundane
> things as web content.
>

This is true, most people type, and most people in front of a computer
are dolts.  Honestly when was the last time you met an intelligent
person on the Internet?  Answer me that question.  Uh huh.  You ain't
never seen it, 'cause everybody on the Internet is dumb[1].

Honestly I just find the outward motions easier than the inward
motions.  Inward motions seem to put a lot more physical stress on
joints and tendons.  Then again, if I rest my arm straight out to the
side and bend my elbow at 90 degrees for a starting position, many
mouse movements are much closer to baseline; any other position
(including the positions used at work[2] and at home--where my
computer is on the floor) seems to create difficulties.  So, keyboard
slide-out tray with mouse on the right marginalizes these complaints.

Also for the touch pad guy, those things are FAST going up-right and
down-left!  Thumb or index finger on the pad.  Middle finger on the
pad.  Raise thumb/index finger.  Mouse jumps up-right (if you're right
handed).  They're not multi-touch and so they register this as a fast,
long movement.

[1]http://xkcd.com/386/
[2]http://img826.imageshack.us/img826/6742/img20120809105855.jpg

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Re: Are UI developers all left handed?

[Felix Miata]

On 2012/08/09 10:37 (GMT-0300) Conscious User composed:


So the point only seems mostly relevant in two situations: when the
person has just arrived on the computer and when the person was
typing. The first case does not seem to be statistically significant.
The second is valid, but prioritizing it seems strange since a very
common argument against Unity and Shell is "ZOMG YOU ARE
FORCING ME TO TYPE AND TYPING IS FOR NERDY GEEKY DORKS
AND NORMAL PEOPLE NEVER TYPE ANYTHING, EVER EVER EVER".


Dolts make that argument. People shop and bank online, and fill out other web 
forms as well. No small number create email rather than just reading it or 
re-forwarding jokes and pr0n forwarded to themselves. Some even use them for 
business and run LibreOffice to create snail mail, manuscripts and other 
things a mouse cannot create, and various other apps to create such mundane 
things as web content.

--
"The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant
words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation)

 Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks!

Felix Miata  ***  http://fm.no-ip.com/

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Re: Are UI developers all left handed?

[Kyrillos Mossad]

Can we really not just making this an option? Instead of arguing against
it? Make controversial stuff like this dynamic. This is exactly what
Android does to keep its masses happy from version to version.

I don't think anyone needs to be forced to deal with something if it
doesn't work for them and hinders productivity.

On Thu, Aug 9, 2012 at 9:37 AM, Conscious User wrote:

>
> Em 08-08-2012 12:01, John Moser escreveu:
>
>  Why do UI designers insist on designing interfaces for left handed people?
>>
>
> I'm late to the discussion but would like to give my two cents.
>
> There seems to be a fundamental flaw in the main argument of this
> thread: it considers what happens when you reach out for the mouse,
> but most of the times you don't have to reach out for the mouse:
> your hand is already there.
>
> As David Klasinc pointed out, once your hand is already there, you
> only make subtle movements, you don't row a boat.
>
> So the point only seems mostly relevant in two situations: when the
> person has just arrived on the computer and when the person was
> typing. The first case does not seem to be statistically significant.
> The second is valid, but prioritizing it seems strange since a very
> common argument against Unity and Shell is "ZOMG YOU ARE
> FORCING ME TO TYPE AND TYPING IS FOR NERDY GEEKY DORKS
> AND NORMAL PEOPLE NEVER TYPE ANYTHING, EVER EVER EVER".
>
> So while I can't give strong physical arguments in favor of left (and
> I'd guess that the history behind this choice has more to do with
> LTR reading than anything physical), I don't think your arguments
> in favor of right are strong, either.
>
>
>
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Re: Are UI developers all left handed?

[Conscious User]

Em 08-08-2012 12:01, John Moser escreveu:

Why do UI designers insist on designing interfaces for left handed people?


I'm late to the discussion but would like to give my two cents.

There seems to be a fundamental flaw in the main argument of this
thread: it considers what happens when you reach out for the mouse,
but most of the times you don't have to reach out for the mouse:
your hand is already there.

As David Klasinc pointed out, once your hand is already there, you
only make subtle movements, you don't row a boat.

So the point only seems mostly relevant in two situations: when the
person has just arrived on the computer and when the person was
typing. The first case does not seem to be statistically significant.
The second is valid, but prioritizing it seems strange since a very
common argument against Unity and Shell is "ZOMG YOU ARE
FORCING ME TO TYPE AND TYPING IS FOR NERDY GEEKY DORKS
AND NORMAL PEOPLE NEVER TYPE ANYTHING, EVER EVER EVER".

So while I can't give strong physical arguments in favor of left (and
I'd guess that the history behind this choice has more to do with
LTR reading than anything physical), I don't think your arguments
in favor of right are strong, either.


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Re: Are UI developers all left handed?

[John Moser]

On Thu, Aug 9, 2012 at 8:25 AM, Tom H  wrote:
> On Wed, Aug 8, 2012 at 1:52 PM, John Moser  wrote:
>> And Apple with MacOSX, which Unity mimics.
>
> The default OS X Dock position is at the bottom of the screen and the
> Dock can be moved to the left or to the right of the screen. So
> Unity's Launcher doesn't quite mimic it. If it did, I'd move the
> Launcher to the bottom with auto-hide. As it is, I just look at
> switching back and forth between OS X and Unity as a "test/game;" on
> OS X "go down for the Dock" and on Unity "go left for the Launcher."
>

You're right, of course.  I actually have no idea what MacOSX looks
like; the last MacOS I used was system 7.

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Re: Are UI developers all left handed?

[Tom H]

On Wed, Aug 8, 2012 at 3:12 PM, John Moser  wrote:
> On Wed, Aug 8, 2012 at 3:06 PM, Tom H  wrote:
>> On Wed, Aug 8, 2012 at 11:25 AM, Phillip Susi  wrote:
>>> On 8/8/2012 11:01 AM, John Moser wrote:

 Put your mouse pointer in the middle of the screen.

 Put your mouse somewhere you can grab it.

 Now reach out and grab the mouse.

 Where does the pointer end up?
>>>
>>> It ends up in the middle of the screen; if you pick up the mouse off
>>> of the pad, it isn't going to move.
>>
>> AFAIU he means that the momentum of the right hand reaching for the
>> mouse moves the pointer to the top right of the screen - or at least
>> moves the pointer in that direction.
>
> Indeed, and the implication that away and out is the natural
> direction.  Swinging my arm inward and pulling it toward me seems to
> put stress on tendons in the shoulder; when the arm is closer, it
> pushes against the torso; an inward wrist movement seems more
> stressful than an outward one; extending the fingers pushes the mouse
> away (and lowers the hand, straightening the wrist), curling them to
> pull is more awkward but also common (and tilts the hand upward,
> creating a sharp angle at the wrist and increasing stress throughout
> the motion).
>
> Though the fact that the fastest and most natural movement when
> initially grabbing for the mouse seems to be out and away does seem
> significant.

The movement is in the opposite direction for a right-handed user with
a trackpad...

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Re: Are UI developers all left handed?

[Tom H]

On Wed, Aug 8, 2012 at 1:52 PM, John Moser  wrote:
> On Wed, Aug 8, 2012 at 1:15 PM, Jordon Bedwell  wrote:
>>
>> It has a lot of bearing for people.  Proper usability testing would have
>> pointed that out, and Canonicals decision not to allow the toolbar to be
>> on the right if users wanted is completely ignorant, more ignorant then
>> the joke of a Usability test Canonical did...
>
> And Gnome with the Activities button
>
> And Apple with MacOSX, which Unity mimics.

The default OS X Dock position is at the bottom of the screen and the
Dock can be moved to the left or to the right of the screen. So
Unity's Launcher doesn't quite mimic it. If it did, I'd move the
Launcher to the bottom with auto-hide. As it is, I just look at
switching back and forth between OS X and Unity as a "test/game;" on
OS X "go down for the Dock" and on Unity "go left for the Launcher."

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Re: Are UI developers all left handed?

[Silvan Marco Fin]

Am 08.08.2012 17:01, schrieb John Moser:

Put your mouse pointer in the middle of the screen.


 Which resembles in most cases the starting point of the mouse pointer 
at the beginning of a session.



Where does the pointer end up?


 At the end of a session it ends up where the logout button is located.

 Lets assume for simplicity, that mouse pointer starting position is 
exactly centered on the logout button, without further specifing, where 
this button is to be found on the screen:


 How many distance in screen resolution does a mouse pointer travel to 
the left and to the right during a session? If you summ up you might 
find out, that the overall distance in both directions is exactly the 
same since you have to go back to the logout button, which is about at 
the mouse pointer starting position.


 What was your point again?

 Kind regards,
  Silvan

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Adolf-Reichwein-Str. 2
57076 Siegen
Telefon: +49 271 740-4092
E-Mail: silvan@uni-siegen.de



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Re: Are UI developers all left handed?

[David Klasinc]

On 08/08/2012 08:15 PM, Dale Amon wrote:

On Wed, Aug 08, 2012 at 01:52:45PM -0400, John Moser wrote:

I hate Unity but I think I'd have trouble making a decent argument,
given the above.  Really I just want to know why EVERYTHING except
Windows (which doesn't do anything useful in the first place) puts the
useful stuff in the top left when it's ergonomically and
biomechanically [B-B-B-BUZZWORD C-C-C-COMBO!] easier to move your hand
away and outward from your body.  I don't think we can really blame
Canonical for that.


I can tell you the historical reasons. All windowing systems
began with their coordinate systems with 0,0 in the upper left
because that is where the scan lines begin. Lines are written
from left to right, top to bottom.


Why the top left corner? I believe that even those historical reasons 
are there for a, hehe, reason.


It has nothing to do with the hand movement and in which direction it is 
easier to move the mouse. Honestly, moving mouse to the left or to the 
right feels pretty much the same to me. We're moving a relatively small 
and light mouse, we're not rowing a boat.


Focus is the key here. We are more focused on the top left corner 
because (most of us) read from left to right and from top to bottom. 
That is why putting everything in that corner is completely natural and 
most ergonomic.


It really has nothing to do with the hand movement.

Regards,
David


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Re: Are UI developers all left handed?

[Jordon Bedwell]

On 08/08/2012 07:08 PM, decle...@nuxwin.com wrote:
> Please,
> 
> You are not happy with Unity? So, I recommend you to simply move back to
> gnome or any other UI of your choice, and then set up your launcher
> where and as you want but please, stop to scare/annoy all Ubuntu
> developers! You do not feel very good or what? Unity is an ambitious UI
> and any suggestion for improvement is welcome but in constructive way !
> To resume, stop to cry now. I get all your mail and I lost a lot of time
> because you ! ! !

This email is ironic.


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Re: Are UI developers all left handed?

[Dmitrijs Ledkovs]

On 08/08/12 23:49, Scott Kitterman wrote:
> On Wednesday, August 08, 2012 02:35:00 PM Felix Miata wrote:
>> On 2012/08/08 12:16 (GMT-0400) Phillip Susi composed:
>>> Felix Miata wrote:
  You're under 40, right? Under 30 too? 20?
>>>
>>> 33 actually, though I don't see what that has to do with the price of
>>> tea in China.
>>
>> Sadly obvious. If you've not studiously watched people over 50 or 80 try to
>> use a computer you should. Then you should be able to discover some
>> important realities about UI usability.
>>
  We all must navigate to a clicking point before clicking. You seem
  to be assuming moving a mouse pointer is always easy. It isn't. Put
  on your carpal tunnel or arthritis gloves and try it. Even just
  using the wrong hand might give you some idea. Maybe the Windows 8
  devs have discovered what the OP is getting at.
>>>
>>> I am not aware of CTS or arthritis having a bias towards one side or
>>> the other.  I assume only that whether you must move to the left or
>>> the right, either is equally hard or easy.
>>
>> A natural proclivity on grasping it to send the pointer away from most
>> likely targets is unhelpful, and even more so when CTS or arthritis makes
>> every mouse movement difficult. According to the OP, toward upper right is
>> the natural proclivity of a right-hander, while toward upper left is the
>> natural proclivity of a left-hander, making natural proclivity helpful to
>> left-handers and detrimental to right-handers who use Unity and Gnome Shell.
>> My point is it is even more detrimental for those for whom mouse movement
>> is difficult.
> 
> Speaking as an almost 50, left-handed-but-got-forced-to-start-right-handed-
> with-mice-because-that-is-how-the-worked-back-then, occasional RSI sufferer 
> who 
> now switches the mouse from one side to the other as needed when the RSI 
> starts to act up ...
> 
> I've never felt like the U/I design of any computer was left handed or right 
> handed.  The LTR aspects of the design work because of the sequence people 
> read in.  It should be (and I thought was) reversed in RTL languages.
> 
> Being someone with a reasonable amount of experience using a mouse with both 
> hands, I can't say I've ever noticed a difference other than it takes a bit 
> of 
> getting used to whenever I switch.
> 
> On the KDE plasma-netbook interface you can switch windows either by hitting 
> the upper left corner or clicking on the right most widget on the panel 
> (which 
> is at the top).  In that case, where I could do equivalent actions either 
> way, 
> I found myself going to the top right, even though it was slightly harder 
> (requires a click) because that was how I started doing it.
> 
> My conclusion is that this is most a matter of habit and experience and none 
> of us can generalize from our individual experiences about what is intuitive. 
>  
> The only way to discover that is find someone who's never used a computer 
> before.  For people with any experience at all, they work best with something 
> like what they've used before.
> 
> Scott K
> 

Speaking as an almost 24, right-handed, snowboarding leading leg regular
(left). Worked a lot with poor laptop keyboards and touchpads, started
to feel wrist pain and now switched to Microsoft Ergonomic Desktop 7000
wireless keyboard and mouse. With regards to hand position the mouse is
semi-vertical, that is my wrist is holding the mouse as if I am about to
shake somebody's hand.

I have been using ubuntu netbook remix, through early unity and still
using unity with quantal. If I grab the mouse from default location, the
pointer may move slightly upwards or not at all. (gotta love the heavy
ergonomic mouse).

I agree that movement to the right is more impulsive (faster), while
movement to the left requires a decision (slower). But to me this is
organisation bias, rather than LTR / RTF issue per se.

Things I do quickly/impulsively and on the right:
- start / stop music
- change wifi hot spots
- logout, suspend, shutdown

Things I do on the left:
- I keep my dash always visible, medium size and I only have 8
applications on it, so i often switch between them by clicking on it.
Other times I use alt-tab alt-` (switching between windows of the same
app). All apps are always maximized. I rarely close apps.
- some toolbar buttons like 1 or 2 in a couple applications.
- I didn't use menus much, and now that they are hidden I use them even less

Things I do on the keyboard:
- Everything else (I am an emacs user/lover as well)

It would be interested to do a mirror test (switch everything LTR to
RTL). My gut feeling after a dip of productivity, I will be back to same
speed. I cannot afford a productivity dip, so I will not test this. I am
not sure how to do a double blind test, cause self-reported results can
be easily spoofed/faked.

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Re: Are UI developers all left handed?

[decle...@nuxwin.com]

Le 09/08/2012 00:21, Alexandre Strube a écrit :
Perhaps you could, instead of resorting to offense, show, by 
numbers/video/anything why you want something changed.


Seriously.

Most people here are quite protective of what they have, but no one is 
stupid. Prove yourself right, and the world will go with you.


The first example was very anedoctal, and, to be honest, I didn't get 
the point, being left-handed. I asked two colleagues of mine to read 
your email, both left-handed as well, and no one understood your 
complain. So I have an anedoctal fact of three left-handed who don't 
agree with you.


I should say that all of us, besides being left-handed, use the mouse 
on the right hand. For different reasons, from VERY different cultural 
backgrounds (brazilian, german, belarusian).


So, please, get calm, and explain better, and - if possible - prove - 
your point. People WILL listen to you.


2012/8/8 Jordon Bedwell >


On 08/08/2012 01:27 PM, Phillip Susi wrote:
> Constructive criticism identifies a problem, explains why it is a
> problem, and suggests what can be done to fix it.  Complaining about
> what was done in the past, and how it was done, often with little
> basis in reality, is ranting.  See the difference?

I said criticism, I said nothing about constructive, you seem to be
under the impression that all criticism must be constructive, this
isn't
grade school, I'm not here to tell you how to do your job, or to teach
you how to do it. I just throw the trash out when I don't like it and
move after criticising it.  I've no time to sit down and do what you
guys should have done right, which step one would have been a /real/
usability test.  A 15 person sample group made up of unequal
numbers and
a somewhat biased requirement list is far from anything considered
good.

Actually you know, to be honest, I wouldn't even criticise Unity
if some
people at Canonical weren't so keen/sure on implying it being good and
usable to all and being perfect and having tasteful design decisions.
Or if they would have admitted the Usability test was dodgy.  I would
just consider it another environment I do not like and move on
without a
word, but the way past tickets were handled changed that.

> If you want to have a productive discussion, then you should
focus on
> explaining why it is any harder for a right handed person to
move the
> mouse to the left than to the right, rather than insult me.

Who said I wanted to be productive for you guys? People far higher you
have already established they don't really give a crap about what
users
want because it's not tasteful to them. With that said, I've adopted a
criticise, throw out the trash and walk away attitude towards anything
included in Ubuntu now.  That is what's great about Linux, there
are so
many ways to make it your own and you get to be selective about where
you give back to opensource.

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Alexandre Strube
su...@ubuntu.com 



Please,

You are not happy with Unity? So, I recommend you to simply move back to 
gnome or any other UI of your choice, and then set up your launcher 
where and as you want but please, stop to scare/annoy all Ubuntu 
developers! You do not feel very good or what? Unity is an ambitious UI 
and any suggestion for improvement is welcome but in constructive way ! 
To resume, stop to cry now. I get all your mail and I lost a lot of time 
because you ! ! !


--

Laurent Declercq
iHMS project manager

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Re: Are UI developers all left handed?

[Scott Kitterman]

On Wednesday, August 08, 2012 02:35:00 PM Felix Miata wrote:
> On 2012/08/08 12:16 (GMT-0400) Phillip Susi composed:
> > Felix Miata wrote:
> >>  You're under 40, right? Under 30 too? 20?
> > 
> > 33 actually, though I don't see what that has to do with the price of
> > tea in China.
> 
> Sadly obvious. If you've not studiously watched people over 50 or 80 try to
> use a computer you should. Then you should be able to discover some
> important realities about UI usability.
> 
> >>  We all must navigate to a clicking point before clicking. You seem
> >>  to be assuming moving a mouse pointer is always easy. It isn't. Put
> >>  on your carpal tunnel or arthritis gloves and try it. Even just
> >>  using the wrong hand might give you some idea. Maybe the Windows 8
> >>  devs have discovered what the OP is getting at.
> > 
> > I am not aware of CTS or arthritis having a bias towards one side or
> > the other.  I assume only that whether you must move to the left or
> > the right, either is equally hard or easy.
> 
> A natural proclivity on grasping it to send the pointer away from most
> likely targets is unhelpful, and even more so when CTS or arthritis makes
> every mouse movement difficult. According to the OP, toward upper right is
> the natural proclivity of a right-hander, while toward upper left is the
> natural proclivity of a left-hander, making natural proclivity helpful to
> left-handers and detrimental to right-handers who use Unity and Gnome Shell.
> My point is it is even more detrimental for those for whom mouse movement
> is difficult.

Speaking as an almost 50, left-handed-but-got-forced-to-start-right-handed-
with-mice-because-that-is-how-the-worked-back-then, occasional RSI sufferer who 
now switches the mouse from one side to the other as needed when the RSI 
starts to act up ...

I've never felt like the U/I design of any computer was left handed or right 
handed.  The LTR aspects of the design work because of the sequence people 
read in.  It should be (and I thought was) reversed in RTL languages.

Being someone with a reasonable amount of experience using a mouse with both 
hands, I can't say I've ever noticed a difference other than it takes a bit of 
getting used to whenever I switch.

On the KDE plasma-netbook interface you can switch windows either by hitting 
the upper left corner or clicking on the right most widget on the panel (which 
is at the top).  In that case, where I could do equivalent actions either way, 
I found myself going to the top right, even though it was slightly harder 
(requires a click) because that was how I started doing it.

My conclusion is that this is most a matter of habit and experience and none 
of us can generalize from our individual experiences about what is intuitive.  
The only way to discover that is find someone who's never used a computer 
before.  For people with any experience at all, they work best with something 
like what they've used before.

Scott K

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Re: Are UI developers all left handed?

[Alexandre Strube]

Perhaps you could, instead of resorting to offense, show, by
numbers/video/anything why you want something changed.

Seriously.

Most people here are quite protective of what they have, but no one is
stupid. Prove yourself right, and the world will go with you.

The first example was very anedoctal, and, to be honest, I didn't get the
point, being left-handed. I asked two colleagues of mine to read your
email, both left-handed as well, and no one understood your complain. So I
have an anedoctal fact of three left-handed who don't agree with you.

I should say that all of us, besides being left-handed, use the mouse on
the right hand. For different reasons, from VERY different cultural
backgrounds (brazilian, german, belarusian).

So, please, get calm, and explain better, and - if possible - prove - your
point. People WILL listen to you.

2012/8/8 Jordon Bedwell 

> On 08/08/2012 01:27 PM, Phillip Susi wrote:
> > Constructive criticism identifies a problem, explains why it is a
> > problem, and suggests what can be done to fix it.  Complaining about
> > what was done in the past, and how it was done, often with little
> > basis in reality, is ranting.  See the difference?
>
> I said criticism, I said nothing about constructive, you seem to be
> under the impression that all criticism must be constructive, this isn't
> grade school, I'm not here to tell you how to do your job, or to teach
> you how to do it. I just throw the trash out when I don't like it and
> move after criticising it.  I've no time to sit down and do what you
> guys should have done right, which step one would have been a /real/
> usability test.  A 15 person sample group made up of unequal numbers and
> a somewhat biased requirement list is far from anything considered good.
>
> Actually you know, to be honest, I wouldn't even criticise Unity if some
> people at Canonical weren't so keen/sure on implying it being good and
> usable to all and being perfect and having tasteful design decisions.
> Or if they would have admitted the Usability test was dodgy.  I would
> just consider it another environment I do not like and move on without a
> word, but the way past tickets were handled changed that.
>
> > If you want to have a productive discussion, then you should focus on
> > explaining why it is any harder for a right handed person to move the
> > mouse to the left than to the right, rather than insult me.
>
> Who said I wanted to be productive for you guys? People far higher you
> have already established they don't really give a crap about what users
> want because it's not tasteful to them. With that said, I've adopted a
> criticise, throw out the trash and walk away attitude towards anything
> included in Ubuntu now.  That is what's great about Linux, there are so
> many ways to make it your own and you get to be selective about where
> you give back to opensource.
>
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>



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Re: Are UI developers all left handed?

[Felix Miata]

On 2012/08/08 16:56 (GMT-0400) Phillip Susi composed:


Felix Miata wrote:



 If you've not studiously watched people over 50 or
 80 try to use a computer you should. Then you should be able to
 discover some important realities about UI usability.



I have watched people that age use a computer, and never noticed any
difficulty moving the mouse to the right compared to the left.


Are you purposely being obstreperous? It's not about right compared to left. 
It's about moving at all, and in the context of predisposition to move away 
from the global hot spot.



Again, I have never noticed any natural proclivity for moving to the
right, so some evidence that this is so would be helpful.


Again, you, have not noticed, unlike the OP and I.
--
"The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant
words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation)

 Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks!

Felix Miata  ***  http://fm.no-ip.com/

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Re: Are UI developers all left handed?

[Benjamin Drung]

Am Mittwoch, den 08.08.2012, 15:29 -0500 schrieb Jordon Bedwell:
> On 08/08/2012 01:27 PM, Phillip Susi wrote:
> > Constructive criticism identifies a problem, explains why it is a
> > problem, and suggests what can be done to fix it.  Complaining about
> > what was done in the past, and how it was done, often with little
> > basis in reality, is ranting.  See the difference?
> 
> I said criticism, I said nothing about constructive, you seem to be
> under the impression that all criticism must be constructive, this isn't
> grade school, I'm not here to tell you how to do your job, or to teach
> you how to do it. I just throw the trash out when I don't like it and
> move after criticising it.

We will read your criticism and move on. Constructive criticism can lead
to improvements.

> I've no time to sit down and do what you
> guys should have done right, which step one would have been a /real/
> usability test.

You think that Unity is unusable. I think that Unity is quite usable.
Other people have different opinions. Having a usable UI doesn't mean
that every single person finds it usable. My opinion about the usability
of a UI doesn't need to be the general opinion and so is yours.

> A 15 person sample group made up of unequal numbers and
> a somewhat biased requirement list is far from anything considered good.
> 
> Actually you know, to be honest, I wouldn't even criticise Unity if some
> people at Canonical weren't so keen/sure on implying it being good and
> usable to all and being perfect and having tasteful design decisions.
> Or if they would have admitted the Usability test was dodgy.  I would
> just consider it another environment I do not like and move on without a
> word, but the way past tickets were handled changed that.
> 
> > If you want to have a productive discussion, then you should focus on
> > explaining why it is any harder for a right handed person to move the
> > mouse to the left than to the right, rather than insult me.
> 
> Who said I wanted to be productive for you guys?

You decrease our productivity by taking our time to read your mails and
by demotivating some of us.

Now it's time for me to do something productive.

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Debian & Ubuntu Developer


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Re: Are UI developers all left handed?

[Phillip Susi]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

On 8/8/2012 2:35 PM, Felix Miata wrote:
> Sadly obvious. If you've not studiously watched people over 50 or
> 80 try to use a computer you should. Then you should be able to
> discover some important realities about UI usability.

I have watched people that age use a computer, and never noticed any
difficulty moving the mouse to the right compared to the left.
Explaining why this would be so and pointing to some evidence of it
would be far more productive than "you just don't understand".

> A natural proclivity on grasping it to send the pointer away from
> most likely targets is unhelpful, and even more so when CTS or
> arthritis makes every mouse movement difficult. According to the
> OP, toward upper right is the natural proclivity of a right-hander,
> while toward upper left is the natural proclivity of a left-hander,
> making natural proclivity helpful to left-handers and detrimental
> to right-handers who use Unity and Gnome Shell. My point is it is
> even more detrimental for those for whom mouse movement is
> difficult.

Again, I have never noticed any natural proclivity for moving to the
right, so some evidence that this is so would be helpful.


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Re: Are UI developers all left handed?

[Jordon Bedwell]

On 08/08/2012 01:27 PM, Phillip Susi wrote:
> Constructive criticism identifies a problem, explains why it is a
> problem, and suggests what can be done to fix it.  Complaining about
> what was done in the past, and how it was done, often with little
> basis in reality, is ranting.  See the difference?

I said criticism, I said nothing about constructive, you seem to be
under the impression that all criticism must be constructive, this isn't
grade school, I'm not here to tell you how to do your job, or to teach
you how to do it. I just throw the trash out when I don't like it and
move after criticising it.  I've no time to sit down and do what you
guys should have done right, which step one would have been a /real/
usability test.  A 15 person sample group made up of unequal numbers and
a somewhat biased requirement list is far from anything considered good.

Actually you know, to be honest, I wouldn't even criticise Unity if some
people at Canonical weren't so keen/sure on implying it being good and
usable to all and being perfect and having tasteful design decisions.
Or if they would have admitted the Usability test was dodgy.  I would
just consider it another environment I do not like and move on without a
word, but the way past tickets were handled changed that.

> If you want to have a productive discussion, then you should focus on
> explaining why it is any harder for a right handed person to move the
> mouse to the left than to the right, rather than insult me.

Who said I wanted to be productive for you guys? People far higher you
have already established they don't really give a crap about what users
want because it's not tasteful to them. With that said, I've adopted a
criticise, throw out the trash and walk away attitude towards anything
included in Ubuntu now.  That is what's great about Linux, there are so
many ways to make it your own and you get to be selective about where
you give back to opensource.

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Re: Are UI developers all left handed?

[John Moser]

On Wed, Aug 8, 2012 at 3:06 PM, Tom H  wrote:
> On Wed, Aug 8, 2012 at 11:25 AM, Phillip Susi  wrote:
>> On 8/8/2012 11:01 AM, John Moser wrote:
>>>
>>> Put your mouse pointer in the middle of the screen.
>>>
>>> Put your mouse somewhere you can grab it.
>>>
>>> Now reach out and grab the mouse.
>>>
>>> Where does the pointer end up?
>>
>> It ends up in the middle of the screen; if you pick up the mouse off
>> of the pad, it isn't going to move.
>
> AFAIU he means that the momentum of the right hand reaching for the
> mouse moves the pointer to the top right of the screen - or at least
> moves the pointer in that direction.

Indeed, and the implication that away and out is the natural
direction.  Swinging my arm inward and pulling it toward me seems to
put stress on tendons in the shoulder; when the arm is closer, it
pushes against the torso; an inward wrist movement seems more
stressful than an outward one; extending the fingers pushes the mouse
away (and lowers the hand, straightening the wrist), curling them to
pull is more awkward but also common (and tilts the hand upward,
creating a sharp angle at the wrist and increasing stress throughout
the motion).

Though the fact that the fastest and most natural movement when
initially grabbing for the mouse seems to be out and away does seem
significant.
>
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Re: Are UI developers all left handed?

[Tom H]

On Wed, Aug 8, 2012 at 11:25 AM, Phillip Susi  wrote:
> On 8/8/2012 11:01 AM, John Moser wrote:
>>
>> Put your mouse pointer in the middle of the screen.
>>
>> Put your mouse somewhere you can grab it.
>>
>> Now reach out and grab the mouse.
>>
>> Where does the pointer end up?
>
> It ends up in the middle of the screen; if you pick up the mouse off
> of the pad, it isn't going to move.

AFAIU he means that the momentum of the right hand reaching for the
mouse moves the pointer to the top right of the screen - or at least
moves the pointer in that direction.

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Re: Are UI developers all left handed?

[John Moser]

On Wed, Aug 8, 2012 at 2:15 PM, Dale Amon  wrote:
> On Wed, Aug 08, 2012 at 01:52:45PM -0400, John Moser wrote:
>> I hate Unity but I think I'd have trouble making a decent argument,
>> given the above.  Really I just want to know why EVERYTHING except
>> Windows (which doesn't do anything useful in the first place) puts the
>> useful stuff in the top left when it's ergonomically and
>> biomechanically [B-B-B-BUZZWORD C-C-C-COMBO!] easier to move your hand
>> away and outward from your body.  I don't think we can really blame
>> Canonical for that.
>
> I can tell you the historical reasons. All windowing systems
> began with their coordinate systems with 0,0 in the upper left
> because that is where the scan lines begin. Lines are written
> from left to right, top to bottom.
>
> It was more difficult to correctly set the position of the upper
> right corner because there was not always a good way to get that
> info. And if your key controls were at (XMAX,0) and you got the
> screen size wrong, you were stuffed.
>

Hush kids, this is actually interesting.  You all can continue your
little spat in a minute, the grown-ups are talking about old computers
they programmed when Linus was still in diapers.

Anyway that's all very fascinating, but how does that translate to the
"Activities" menu in Gnome Shell getting up there?  Or Canonical
deliberately moving the control box to the top-left, Apple style?
Your explanation seems satisfactory for Apple, since it's been running
MacOS on a top-left control box scheme since inception.

While we're reminiscing about the past, you know what's funny?  I used
Windows 3.0 and DOS and all, and I didn't even know the X worked until
Windows 95.  Didn't get Windows 95 until 1996 either.  I was taught
that you double-clicked the "-" button (top left corner in Windows
3.1, drops a menu of sorts when clicked) to close a window and never
figured out what the control box did.  It was quickly forgotten after
I learned to maximize and minimize (and close!) windows years later.

> Dale Amon
> Who once in a time long ago and far away
> worked on a windowing system for a display
> graphic terminal output controlled by PDP-11
> assembly code.
>
>

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Re: Are UI developers all left handed?

[Felix Miata]

On 2012/08/08 12:16 (GMT-0400) Phillip Susi composed:


Felix Miata wrote:



 You're under 40, right? Under 30 too? 20?



33 actually, though I don't see what that has to do with the price of
tea in China.


Sadly obvious. If you've not studiously watched people over 50 or 80 try to 
use a computer you should. Then you should be able to discover some important 
realities about UI usability.



 We all must navigate to a clicking point before clicking. You seem
 to be assuming moving a mouse pointer is always easy. It isn't. Put
 on your carpal tunnel or arthritis gloves and try it. Even just
 using the wrong hand might give you some idea. Maybe the Windows 8
 devs have discovered what the OP is getting at.



I am not aware of CTS or arthritis having a bias towards one side or
the other.  I assume only that whether you must move to the left or
the right, either is equally hard or easy.


A natural proclivity on grasping it to send the pointer away from most likely 
targets is unhelpful, and even more so when CTS or arthritis makes every 
mouse movement difficult. According to the OP, toward upper right is the 
natural proclivity of a right-hander, while toward upper left is the natural 
proclivity of a left-hander, making natural proclivity helpful to 
left-handers and detrimental to right-handers who use Unity and Gnome Shell. 
My point is it is even more detrimental for those for whom mouse movement is 
difficult.

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Re: Are UI developers all left handed?

[Phillip Susi]

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Hash: SHA1

On 8/8/2012 2:11 PM, Jordon Bedwell wrote:
> Speaking of useless.  And because critiscm is ranting... oh yeah
> that is usually the go to word for people now everything is either
> a rant or a troll now days.  Don't expect me to throw on the
> training wheels old chap.  Do something useful.. go move around
> your arm until you figure out the simplest thing about it.

Constructive criticism identifies a problem, explains why it is a
problem, and suggests what can be done to fix it.  Complaining about
what was done in the past, and how it was done, often with little
basis in reality, is ranting.  See the difference?

If you want to have a productive discussion, then you should focus on
explaining why it is any harder for a right handed person to move the
mouse to the left than to the right, rather than insult me.


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Re: Are UI developers all left handed?

[Dale Amon]

On Wed, Aug 08, 2012 at 01:52:45PM -0400, John Moser wrote:
> I hate Unity but I think I'd have trouble making a decent argument,
> given the above.  Really I just want to know why EVERYTHING except
> Windows (which doesn't do anything useful in the first place) puts the
> useful stuff in the top left when it's ergonomically and
> biomechanically [B-B-B-BUZZWORD C-C-C-COMBO!] easier to move your hand
> away and outward from your body.  I don't think we can really blame
> Canonical for that.

I can tell you the historical reasons. All windowing systems
began with their coordinate systems with 0,0 in the upper left
because that is where the scan lines begin. Lines are written
from left to right, top to bottom.

It was more difficult to correctly set the position of the upper
right corner because there was not always a good way to get that
info. And if your key controls were at (XMAX,0) and you got the
screen size wrong, you were stuffed.

Dale Amon
Who once in a time long ago and far away 
worked on a windowing system for a display 
graphic terminal output controlled by PDP-11 
assembly code.



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Re: Are UI developers all left handed?

[Jordon Bedwell]

On 08/08/2012 12:34 PM, Phillip Susi wrote:
> If you actually explained how it has any bearing, rather than going on
> a useless rant, your message might have some value to this list.

Speaking of useless.  And because critiscm is ranting... oh yeah that is
usually the go to word for people now everything is either a rant or a
troll now days.  Don't expect me to throw on the training wheels old
chap.  Do something useful.. go move around your arm until you figure
out the simplest thing about it.

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Re: Are UI developers all left handed?

[John Moser]

On Wed, Aug 8, 2012 at 1:15 PM, Jordon Bedwell  wrote:

> It has a lot of bearing for people.  Proper usability testing would have
> pointed that out, and Canonicals decision not to allow the toolbar to be
> on the right if users wanted is completely ignorant, more ignorant then
> the joke of a Usability test Canonical did...

And Gnome with the Activities button

And Apple with MacOSX, which Unity mimics; though if I wanted to go on
a tirade about Unity specifically, I'd say something about menus at
the top of the screen (which has become relevant with 26 inch wide
screen displays at 1920x1080, where maximizing things is ridiculous
and so windows float around on the screen... 2 clicks to open "File"
on that window over there instead of 1).

UI design is something everyone's an expert in and nobody gets right.
Focus groups and thick tomes on "User Interface Design Principles" and
they still bring out ridiculousness.

GNOME2 for example is so great precisely because it's familiar and
sensible--it looks kind of like everything else, though with the panel
at the top that's new territory for a Windows guy... but at least the
menus are organized in a sensible way.

Gnome Shell is closer.  Tap Activities, everything is there.  Start
typing, it searches through programs.  Mouse on the right side, play
with virtual desktops.  Drag and drop to move windows around,
seriously point and grab.  Seems like everything is in perfect context
and works so obviously well... ... But then when you start trying to
muck about with the stuff at the bottom right (notification icons),
they don't always work as expected.  Sometimes you get kicked back out
to the desktop for unknown reasons trying to get information out of
'em.  The notification at the bottom of the screen covers a third of
it, in the center, but prevents mouse clicks from going through on
that entire horizontal area (plug in a USB drive?  The bottom 3 inches
of your screen are unusable until you dismiss the pop-up!).

Windows is a mess.  Windows 7 is an even bigger mess, to the point
that I can't figure out where stuff is.  Now apparently I have
Documents and Downloads and Pictures, I'm not sure where it all goes,
some of this is new, some of it moved.  I appear to have a Home folder
now that CONTAINS Documents, and some stuff randomly saves there
instead of "My Documents" ... oh, and inside there I have two folders
named Desktop, two folders named "My Documents", "My Music", "My
Pictures", etc.. but only one "Contacts" or "Downloads" or "Favorites"
folder.  And they split these things that are "Mine" up between
"Favorites" (Desktop, Downloads) and "Libraries" (Documents, Music,
Pictures) on the navigation pane in Explorer, instead of just calling
it all MY FREAKING STUFF.

I hate Unity but I think I'd have trouble making a decent argument,
given the above.  Really I just want to know why EVERYTHING except
Windows (which doesn't do anything useful in the first place) puts the
useful stuff in the top left when it's ergonomically and
biomechanically [B-B-B-BUZZWORD C-C-C-COMBO!] easier to move your hand
away and outward from your body.  I don't think we can really blame
Canonical for that.

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Re: Are UI developers all left handed?

[Phillip Susi]

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Hash: SHA1

On 8/8/2012 1:15 PM, Jordon Bedwell wrote:
> It has a lot of bearing for people.  Proper usability testing would
> have pointed that out, and Canonicals decision not to allow the
> toolbar to be on the right if users wanted is completely ignorant,
> more ignorant then the joke of a Usability test Canonical did...
> more of a joke then a requirement of a Usability test requiring
> users to be as they put it "employed full-time or to be full-time
> student"...  Or that you even bothered to ask about design when you
> were testing usability which should have focused on usability, not
> "isn't this purrty."

If you actually explained how it has any bearing, rather than going on
a useless rant, your message might have some value to this list.


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Re: Are UI developers all left handed?

[Jordon Bedwell]

On 08/08/2012 10:25 AM, Phillip Susi wrote:
>> GNOME SHELL.  The thing you have to hit to do anything is in the
>> top left corner.  Want to log out?  That's in the top right,
>> fastest thing you'll be able to hit ever.
> 
> Which hand you prefer to hold the mouse with has no bearing on how
> fast you can click anything on the screen, nor does where it is on the
> screen.  Moving the cursor to the left or to the right is done with
> equal ease no matter which hand you favor.

It has a lot of bearing for people.  Proper usability testing would have
pointed that out, and Canonicals decision not to allow the toolbar to be
on the right if users wanted is completely ignorant, more ignorant then
the joke of a Usability test Canonical did... more of a joke then a
requirement of a Usability test requiring users to be as they put it
"employed full-time or to be full-time student"...  Or that you even
bothered to ask about design when you were testing usability which
should have focused on usability, not "isn't this purrty."

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Re: Are UI developers all left handed?

[Phillip Susi]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

On 8/8/2012 11:43 AM, Felix Miata wrote:
> You're under 40, right? Under 30 too? 20?

33 actually, though I don't see what that has to do with the price of
tea in China.

> We all must navigate to a clicking point before clicking. You seem
> to be assuming moving a mouse pointer is always easy. It isn't. Put
> on your carpal tunnel or arthritis gloves and try it. Even just
> using the wrong hand might give you some idea. Maybe the Windows 8
> devs have discovered what the OP is getting at.

I am not aware of CTS or arthritis having a bias towards one side or
the other.  I assume only that whether you must move to the left or
the right, either is equally hard or easy.


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Re: Are UI developers all left handed?

[Daniel Hollocher]

If this conversation is to be had, can we take it in a direction that
isn't a flame war?

On Wed, Aug 8, 2012 at 11:43 AM, Felix Miata  wrote:
> On 2012/08/08 11:25 (GMT-0400) Phillip Susi composed:
>
>
>> On 8/8/2012 11:01 AM, John Moser wrote:
>
>
>>>  Put your mouse pointer in the middle of the screen.
>
>
>>>  Put your mouse somewhere you can grab it.
>
>
>>>  Now reach out and grab the mouse.
>
>
>>>  Where does the pointer end up?
>
>
>> It ends up in the middle of the screen; if you pick up the mouse off
>> of the pad, it isn't going to move.
>
>
>>>  If it winds up in the top right of your screen, it seems you're
>>>  right handed.  Your arm just goes that way, and your wrist
>>>  straightens to support the movement.  It flexes outward more easily
>>>  than inward, too.
>
>
>> What are you talking about?  If you are left handed, then you will
>> want to put the mouse on the left of the keyboard where you can hold
>> it with your left hand.
>
>
> You're under 40, right? Under 30 too? 20?
>
>
>>>  UNITY.  Puts the control box (close, minimize, etc) in the top
>>>  left. Of the entire screen.
>
>
>>>  GNOME SHELL.  The thing you have to hit to do anything is in the
>>>  top left corner.  Want to log out?  That's in the top right,
>>>  fastest thing you'll be able to hit ever.
>
>
>> Which hand you prefer to hold the mouse with has no bearing on how
>> fast you can click anything on the screen, nor does where it is on the
>> screen.  Moving the cursor to the left or to the right is done with
>> equal ease no matter which hand you favor.
>
>
> We all must navigate to a clicking point before clicking. You seem to be
> assuming moving a mouse pointer is always easy. It isn't. Put on your carpal
> tunnel or arthritis gloves and try it. Even just using the wrong hand might
> give you some idea. Maybe the Windows 8 devs have discovered what the OP is
> getting at.
> --
> "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant
> words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation)
>
>  Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks!
>
> Felix Miata  ***  http://fm.no-ip.com/
>
>
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Re: Are UI developers all left handed?

[Felix Miata]

On 2012/08/08 11:25 (GMT-0400) Phillip Susi composed:


On 8/8/2012 11:01 AM, John Moser wrote:



 Put your mouse pointer in the middle of the screen.



 Put your mouse somewhere you can grab it.



 Now reach out and grab the mouse.



 Where does the pointer end up?



It ends up in the middle of the screen; if you pick up the mouse off
of the pad, it isn't going to move.



 If it winds up in the top right of your screen, it seems you're
 right handed.  Your arm just goes that way, and your wrist
 straightens to support the movement.  It flexes outward more easily
 than inward, too.



What are you talking about?  If you are left handed, then you will
want to put the mouse on the left of the keyboard where you can hold
it with your left hand.


You're under 40, right? Under 30 too? 20?


 UNITY.  Puts the control box (close, minimize, etc) in the top
 left. Of the entire screen.



 GNOME SHELL.  The thing you have to hit to do anything is in the
 top left corner.  Want to log out?  That's in the top right,
 fastest thing you'll be able to hit ever.



Which hand you prefer to hold the mouse with has no bearing on how
fast you can click anything on the screen, nor does where it is on the
screen.  Moving the cursor to the left or to the right is done with
equal ease no matter which hand you favor.


We all must navigate to a clicking point before clicking. You seem to be 
assuming moving a mouse pointer is always easy. It isn't. Put on your carpal 
tunnel or arthritis gloves and try it. Even just using the wrong hand might 
give you some idea. Maybe the Windows 8 devs have discovered what the OP is 
getting at.

--
"The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant
words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation)

 Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks!

Felix Miata  ***  http://fm.no-ip.com/

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Re: Are UI developers all left handed?

[Phillip Susi]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

On 8/8/2012 11:01 AM, John Moser wrote:
> Put your mouse pointer in the middle of the screen.
> 
> Put your mouse somewhere you can grab it.
> 
> Now reach out and grab the mouse.
> 
> Where does the pointer end up?

It ends up in the middle of the screen; if you pick up the mouse off
of the pad, it isn't going to move.

> If it winds up in the top right of your screen, it seems you're
> right handed.  Your arm just goes that way, and your wrist
> straightens to support the movement.  It flexes outward more easily
> than inward, too.

What are you talking about?  If you are left handed, then you will
want to put the mouse on the left of the keyboard where you can hold
it with your left hand.

> UNITY.  Puts the control box (close, minimize, etc) in the top
> left. Of the entire screen.
> 
> GNOME SHELL.  The thing you have to hit to do anything is in the
> top left corner.  Want to log out?  That's in the top right,
> fastest thing you'll be able to hit ever.

Which hand you prefer to hold the mouse with has no bearing on how
fast you can click anything on the screen, nor does where it is on the
screen.  Moving the cursor to the left or to the right is done with
equal ease no matter which hand you favor.


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Are UI developers all left handed?

[John Moser]

Put your mouse pointer in the middle of the screen.

Put your mouse somewhere you can grab it.

Now reach out and grab the mouse.

Where does the pointer end up?

If it winds up in the top right of your screen, it seems you're right
handed.  Your arm just goes that way, and your wrist straightens to
support the movement.  It flexes outward more easily than inward, too.

UNITY.  Puts the control box (close, minimize, etc) in the top left.
Of the entire screen.

GNOME SHELL.  The thing you have to hit to do anything is in the top
left corner.  Want to log out?  That's in the top right, fastest thing
you'll be able to hit ever.

EVERYTHING puts menus left to right (the Help menu used to be on the
far right, separate from all other menus, in Windows 3.1), but that's
probably more for left-to-right text flow than anything.  Also it
keeps "File" from being too damn close to the big evil [X] button, but
it's still slow and inconvenient.

Why do UI designers insist on designing interfaces for left handed people?

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