Re: Question about this list

[Ben Gamari]

Excerpts from Amahdy's message of Wed Jan 27 21:19:30 -0500 2010:
> If other developers put sometime to make life easier (and faster) for us.
> There is a user interface, a browser, an email client ..etc, then only
> because I like the keyboard I'll use terminal?? I do like terminal and I use
> it many times to facilate my life through commands, but I said to "facilate"
> because I know the command and I can type it faster than mouse movement, but
> not beause I'm a terminal fan then I must do everything on it.

Of course. Always use the right tool for the job.

> So my new question here is (which probably I asked before but here is
> re-formed):
> What exactly terminal commands or program that those ppl use to read the
> list mails, maybe I'll get convienced and as I asked before I want to know
> so that I can use this list better because for me it's currently very hard
> to use.
> 
I used to be a mutt user and it worked fine for moderate email volumes.
I've since switched to sup[1] and have found that allows me to organize
my email with far greater ease than mutt would although still suffers
from some major drawbacks. I am currently putting together some patches
for asynchronous subprocess support in vim so that it can be used as a
usable frontend for notmuch[1]. When I have finished this, I'll be
switching to notmuch, which in my opinion seems to be the ideal mail
management solution.

As I mentioned in my original reply, I use procmail and spamassassin for
mail filtering and have been quite happy with it.

> One thing to mention, under windows, for example to change something in the
> taskbar without mouse: press win-logo, press it again (it will be
> activated), press tab then tab till you reach the taskbar, then press the
> right-click-input, then choose from the menu, now tell me if this is could
> be easily done (by default) under Ubuntu? indeed Ubuntu was designed to be
> very user friendly that the design lack a support for the developers who
> lover keyboard, their only alternative is commands over terminal, yet there
> is not a default shortcut-key to open the terminal.
> 
What exactly do you want to do? I only rarely find myself using the
mouse for window management. I use compiz and have it configured quite
nicely. That notwithstanding, one can perform pretty much anything using
nothing but Alt-Tab and Alt-Space. The lack of a default is intentional.
Users differ in their preferences and Ubuntu (in general) tries not to
impose any key bindings that aren't already widely accepted by users.
Keybindings are readily configurable, however, in the Keyboard Shortcuts
configuration applet.

- Ben

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Re: Question about this list

[Thorsten Wilms]

On Fri, 2010-01-29 at 18:47 -0400, Derek Broughton wrote:

> You chose digest.  I've never even encountered a mailing list where digest 
> was the default.

I'm wondering if it wouldn't be a net gain to remove digest mode from
mailing lists. Even if it doesn't cause confusion like here, it still
results in broken threads, meaningless subject lines and bad quoting
habits being even more harmful.


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Re: Question about this list

[Derek Broughton]

Amahdy wrote:

> Like many ppl, I don't want to check a lists group over an rss like gmane,

You really, desperately, need to learn terminology if you want to convince 
_anybody_ that you are right.  gmane news is _not_ in any sense an "rss".

> and the reason of checking this list over web-browser then it's because I
> don't know how a better way to see the 10 replies on my post and type a
> new one using my mail client.

Well, that certainly explains why you get no support here...
> 
> Maybe I'm missing something here (like I said in my early first post), but
> I even don't know how to set a total delivery for all messages sent here,
> I only receive a digest and there is no option to receive
> instant-notification, although I believe mailman has this option but maybe

You chose digest.  I've never even encountered a mailing list where digest 
was the default.
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Re: Question about this list

[Christopher Chan]

Amahdy,

thanks for the show. You should try irc some time.


Christopher


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Re: Question about this list

[Amahdy]

On Fri, Jan 29, 2010 at 03:31, C de-Avillez  wrote:

>
>
> Now, perhaps you do not see these lines -- which would, then, point to a
> problem with your email client (be it a real client, or Google, or
> whatever.
>
> Regards,
>
> ..C..
>
>

No I received them, I don't know why u assumed that, but generally if you
are pointing to my messages that got cut off, then again they are cut off
online on the lists.ubuntu.com website not in any of the users email clients
including GMail.


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Re: Question about this list

[C de-Avillez]

Amahdy wrote:
> Maybe I'm missing something here (like I said in my early first post), but I
> even don't know how to set a total delivery for all messages sent here, I
> only receive a digest and there is no option to receive
> instant-notification, although I believe mailman has this option but maybe
> the case here was disabled by an administrator or I'm doing something wrong
> and I can't find the way to do it... please advise?
>   
Yes, mailman has this option, and no, it was not disabled. As far as I
can remember, the default is *individual* messages. If I am correct,
then you are receiving a digest because -- at some point in time -- you
so chose.

Anyway. At the very bottom of the email you should see the following
four lines (without the hash sign on the first line):

#--
Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list
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All you need to do is follow the link on the very last line, and edit
your settings.

Now, perhaps you do not see these lines -- which would, then, point to a
problem with your email client (be it a real client, or Google, or whatever.

Regards,

..C..



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Re: Question about this list

[Amahdy]

Oh you mean I can't have digest and single delivery at the same time? ok I
think I got the problem now ... Thanks!


-- Amahdy AbdElAziz
IT & Development Manager
3D Diagnostix Inc. www.3ddx.com
http://www.linkedin.com/in/amahdyabdelaziz



On Fri, Jan 29, 2010 at 03:26, Andrew SB  wrote:

> On Thu, Jan 28, 2010 at 8:14 PM, Amahdy  wrote:
> > Maybe I'm missing something here (like I said in my early first post),
> but I
> > even don't know how to set a total delivery for all messages sent here, I
> > only receive a digest and there is no option to receive
> > instant-notification, although I believe mailman has this option but
> maybe
> > the case here was disabled by an administrator or I'm doing something
> wrong
> > and I can't find the way to do it... please advise?
>
> Well, when you subscribed you must have selected to get the digest.
> You can change your options here:
>
> https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/options/ubuntu-devel-announce
>
> -- Andrew SB
>
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Re: Question about this list

[Andrew SB]

On Thu, Jan 28, 2010 at 8:14 PM, Amahdy  wrote:
> Maybe I'm missing something here (like I said in my early first post), but I
> even don't know how to set a total delivery for all messages sent here, I
> only receive a digest and there is no option to receive
> instant-notification, although I believe mailman has this option but maybe
> the case here was disabled by an administrator or I'm doing something wrong
> and I can't find the way to do it... please advise?

Well, when you subscribed you must have selected to get the digest.
You can change your options here:

https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/options/ubuntu-devel-announce

-- Andrew SB

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Re: Question about this list

[Amahdy]

>
> 2010/1/28 Amahdy  >:
>
> >* What the problem really? when the quoted-text is collapsed and the replies
> *>* are organized together and simple navigation ... yes I can follow threads 
> at
> *>* google-groups even if it's with hundred replies, but here my thread with
> *>* about 10 replies, I opened 10 tabs to see them all and another tab to type
> *>* this reply!
> *
> So why are you doing that?
>
> Maybe I didn't understand it correctly, but I got the impression that
>
> you are reading the messages from the mailing list archives at
> lists.ubuntu.com using your web browser, which is insane if you're
> following a list daily (and don't just want to lookup a few old mail,
>
> or get a link to them for someone else's reference).
>
> The purpose of a mailing list is that you subscribe to it so that
> you'll get a copy of all mails send there, which you can then handle
> the way you want with your favorite client (be it mutt, Thunderbird or
>
> Gmail's web interface).
>
> If you don't want to subscribe, you still could use this interface:
> http://blog.gmane.org/gmane.linux.ubuntu.devel.discuss (where you get
>
> all replies to a thread in a single page, and from where you can reply
> to them with a click). Or this read-only view:
> http://news.gmane.org/gmane.linux.ubuntu.devel.discuss . Or use a
>
> newsgroup reader like someone else already mentioned.
>
> Cheers,
>
> --
> Siegfried-Angel Gevatter Pujals (RainCT)
> Free Software Developer   363DEAE3
>
>
Like many ppl, I don't want to check a lists group over an rss like gmane,
and the reason of checking this list over web-browser then it's because I
don't know how a better way to see the 10 replies on my post and type a new
one using my mail client.

Maybe I'm missing something here (like I said in my early first post), but I
even don't know how to set a total delivery for all messages sent here, I
only receive a digest and there is no option to receive
instant-notification, although I believe mailman has this option but maybe
the case here was disabled by an administrator or I'm doing something wrong
and I can't find the way to do it... please advise?



-- Amahdy AbdElAziz
IT & Development Manager
3D Diagnostix Inc. www.3ddx.com
http://www.linkedin.com/in/amahdyabdelaziz
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Re: Question about this list

[Siegfried-A. Gevatter]

2010/1/28 Amahdy :
> What the problem really? when the quoted-text is collapsed and the replies
> are organized together and simple navigation ... yes I can follow threads at
> google-groups even if it's with hundred replies, but here my thread with
> about 10 replies, I opened 10 tabs to see them all and another tab to type
> this reply!

So why are you doing that?

Maybe I didn't understand it correctly, but I got the impression that
you are reading the messages from the mailing list archives at
lists.ubuntu.com using your web browser, which is insane if you're
following a list daily (and don't just want to lookup a few old mail,
or get a link to them for someone else's reference).

The purpose of a mailing list is that you subscribe to it so that
you'll get a copy of all mails send there, which you can then handle
the way you want with your favorite client (be it mutt, Thunderbird or
Gmail's web interface).

If you don't want to subscribe, you still could use this interface:
http://blog.gmane.org/gmane.linux.ubuntu.devel.discuss (where you get
all replies to a thread in a single page, and from where you can reply
to them with a click). Or this read-only view:
http://news.gmane.org/gmane.linux.ubuntu.devel.discuss . Or use a
newsgroup reader like someone else already mentioned.

Cheers,

-- 
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Free Software Developer   363DEAE3

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Re: Question about this list

[Amahdy]

When I tell someone to migrate from Windows to Ubuntu because it's more
stable, feature, performance ... etc, the answer is: I like what I'm now and
I don't want to change it, my outlook is configured, my bookmarks are set,
and hey I use FF not IE so please leave me like that.

When I ask a Linux-adminsitrator to use Ubuntu-server, he tells me that a
server is RedHat or Suse, I already have my organized scripts, environment,
rpm's, I know how to compile PHP under Redhat easily and he prefer it more
than using the easy way that Ubuntu does, he also like to perform
configuration changes manually rather than using dpkg-rec.. or any thing ...

And when I come here to ask you guys why u r that old with a very old way of
communication, I don't receive much different answers, ppl are the same all
over the OS, a person like what he is now and don't want to change it
because simply he is afraid from try the *new* things.

I won't re-write why I said that this list is very old fashion, I have
pretty stated many of them more than once, please don't tell me that I
haven't answered the question and that I'm talking about features only, no
I'm talking about many things and what I have here that nobody yet answered
my question, or the answers are not logistic ... and I haven't said use rss
for lists, I said I suggest rss but of course Mozilla-Hackers have their
tools too, and I'm highly sure they are more advanced than yours here that's
why in December-2009 they reached in the market 52% for (FF 3.5) while 11%
for (IE 7).

It's not my google-mail problem with the cropped-email, I received it
correctly in my GMail, but it's on the website cropped, go see it yourself,
this is not a google bug but a lists-bug.

I may use mutt if I want to be different from a normal user and have a tool
that a normal user can never use, but please don't tell me that the usage of
mutt is better than gmail as an email client, or faster or anything, I may
use mutt for reading local-emails on the remote server that's the best thing
it can fit for.

>Again, I challenge you to try following a thread longer than 5 messages on
Google groups. It's simple not possible.
What the problem really? when the quoted-text is collapsed and the replies
are organized together and simple navigation ... yes I can follow threads at
google-groups even if it's with hundred replies, but here my thread with
about 10 replies, I opened 10 tabs to see them all and another tab to type
this reply!





-- Amahdy AbdElAziz
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Re: Question about this list

[Markus Schönhaber]

28.01.2010 02:26, Amahdy:

> Anybody who read my original email in the digest will notice the problem,
> the "From" has a special-char before it but I never typed it in my original
> email, I don't know why this happened too maybe somebody could explain, but
> my email is cropped at the original list website.
> 
> On Thu, Jan 28, 2010 at 03:10, Amahdy  wrote:
> 
>> Is there some kind of problem here or is it for me only? my email is never
>> continued, it cut off the rest of the email starting from the word: F - R -
>> O - M -- a - n - o - t - h - e - r  do I only have this problem or
>> what's exactly?

If that "special-char" preceding "From" you're referring to is a ">"
then it looks like MBox's ">From-quoting". In MBox format, the start of
a new message is determined by a blank line followed by a line starting
with "From "[1]. If a message itself contains a blank line followed by a
line starting with "From ", the "From " will become ">From " to indicate
that it's not the start of a new message.

If the digest uses or is somehow created from MBox, this might be an
explanation.

[1] The blank line may be missing at the start of the file, obviously.
But that's completely irrelevant here.

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Re: Question about this list

[Derek Broughton]

Amahdy wrote:

>>Because what we have works very well and doesn't rely on an external
> entity.
> 
> We all know that there is "no bug free software", so if mailman is very
> good, google-groups are -per my usage- very good too
> 
>>Mailing lists are the lifeblood of most open source projects.
> 
> Always wondering why!! why not move on to a *group*

Google didn't invent "groups".  It's just a proprietary Usenet.  If you 
prefer reading a newsgroup, you can get just about any Linux "list" via 
gmane - and those of us who prefer "groups", do: 
nntp://gmane.linux.ubuntu.devel.discuss

>>they perform their designated task far more effectively.
> 
> More effectively based on what? in our list here, open the archive, then
> choose January-2010, then choose sort by date, then open a random thread,
> then press "Next"
> The next one will be the next one "by thread" not "by date" as expected,
> this maybe a small bug (but I don't think so) or maybe it's something that
> wasn't "designated" from the beginning. and here is what I wanted to
> perform: open the list-page sorted by date and read the new threads by
> pressing next, next ... not by click, then back, then scroll, then click,

That's a client function - my newsreader and mail client both read the 
"next" message by pressing the space bar.

> then aahhh I opened this one before that ... then close the browser and I
> don't want to read anything. what if from my simple browsing I want to
> just hit reply and send, this also not in the design at all, instead I
> MUST use an email client which is oh my god I was just navigating the list
> from my mobile phone and it does not contains a multi-tab to open the
> email in another tab without loosing this page 

Again, that's in your choice of client, and nothing to do with using Google 
or not.
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Re: Question about this list

[Derek Broughton]

Amahdy wrote:

> Anybody who read my original email in the digest will notice the problem,
> the "From" has a special-char before it but I never typed it in my
> original email, I don't know why this happened too maybe somebody could
> explain, but my email is cropped at the original list website.
> 
> 
> On Thu, Jan 28, 2010 at 03:10, Amahdy  wrote:
> 
>> Is there some kind of problem here or is it for me only? my email is
>> never continued, it cut off the rest of the email starting from the word:
>> F - R - O - M -- a - n - o - t - h - e - r  do I only have this
>> problem or what's exactly?

This would be why so many vehemently oppose the use of Google - it just 
refuses to play well with others.  I doubt anybody else saw your emails "cut 
off" - we saw the whole post each time.
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Re: Question about this list

[Remco]

On Thu, Jan 28, 2010 at 03:19, Amahdy  wrote:
> One thing to mention, under windows, for example to change something in the
> taskbar without mouse: press win-logo, press it again (it will be
> activated), press tab then tab till you reach the taskbar, then press the
> right-click-input, then choose from the menu, now tell me if this is could
> be easily done (by default) under Ubuntu? indeed Ubuntu was designed to be
> very user friendly that the design lack a support for the developers who
> lover keyboard, their only alternative is commands over terminal, yet there
> is not a default shortcut-key to open the terminal.

Please find another example, because this is very easy to do:
Ctrl-Alt-Tab until you reach the bottom panel, then use the arrows to
go to the right panel item.

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Re: Question about this list

[Ben Gamari]

Excerpts from Amahdy's message of Wed Jan 27 21:40:21 -0500 2010:
> >* >Mailing lists are the lifeblood of most open source projects.
> > *>*
> > *>* Always wondering why!! why not move on to a *group*
> > *>*
> > *A better question would be why _should we_ move on to a "group." I see
> > no clear answer to this question.
> >
> If you don't want a feauture, you can disable it (like not putting external
> plugins in this mailing list and keep it that simple), google-groups offers
> to disable whatever you don't want to, but as for my suggestion to move, I
> already mentioned many of them: starting from bugs (I come here with 3 of
> them till now), and by lowering costs ... I already tried to explain many
> things yet not all of them, why u don't tell me the idea maybe I could see
> your point of view.

You still haven't answered my question. I still have yet to see a single
argument for switching away from our existing infrastructure other than
"gee whiz, look at all of these pretty features!"

I know of no bugs in mailman. It has been used by hundreds of projects
for years. If you are experiencing issues the problem is almost
certainly sitting between the chair and keyboard.

Frankly, the economic argument is anything but convincing. I've seen no
evidence to suggest that the overhead of running a mailman server is
anything resembling onerous. It takes far more CPU-hours to serve
bugzillas, wikis, and static HTML than it does to bounce a few hundred
emails a day.

> As I said, you can disable whatever you don't like as feature, google-groups
> by default is HTML-disabled and could be fixed-width font-type (which I
> prefer because it looks like the code) ... but just tell me the
> administration overhead for managing a google-group is harder than the case
> for this mailing list server??? simple task here: preventing spam, which is
> completely out of my *head* at google-groups.
>
The last thing any of us need is to worry about disabling yet more
largely undesired features. I want a mailing list engine to distribute
emails sent to it.  Nothing more and nothing less.

> 
> If you like your console, you still can receive the emails through rss, I
> don't know how you read emails now to argue but I guess (maybe I'm wrong
> here) that xml-reader will be much easier, or organized, or as I said I
> won't argue here but definitely there is a way out here. At least ask
> Mozilla hackers what they do.

I have absolutely no desire to receive email through RSS. RSS was
designed for a completely different use-case than email.
News != discussion. Again, we already have a system that pretty much
anyone can use easily and efficiently. The onus is on _you_ to
demonstrate that there is good cause to change what has worked for
literally decades.

> > As I mentioned before, I think the Google Groups archive interface is a
> > perfect example of why it shouldn't be used for technical discussion. It
> > is a user-interface nightmare.
> >
> >
> Don't know why, maybe you can say that on Yahoo-groups or any service that
> focus on design and styles but google, uuh .. ?
> 

Again, I challenge you to try following a thread longer than 5 messages
on Google groups. It's simple not possible.

- Ben

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Re: Question about this list

[Ben Gamari]

Excerpts from Amahdy's message of Wed Jan 27 21:19:30 -0500 2010:
> If other developers put sometime to make life easier (and faster) for us.
> There is a user interface, a browser, an email client ..etc, then only
> because I like the keyboard I'll use terminal?? I do like terminal and I use
> it many times to facilate my life through commands, but I said to "facilate"
> because I know the command and I can type it faster than mouse movement, but
> not beause I'm a terminal fan then I must do everything on it.

Of course. Always use the right tool for the job.

> So my new question here is (which probably I asked before but here is
> re-formed):
> What exactly terminal commands or program that those ppl use to read the
> list mails, maybe I'll get convienced and as I asked before I want to know
> so that I can use this list better because for me it's currently very hard
> to use.
> 
I used to be a mutt user and it worked fine for moderate email volumes.
I've since switched to sup[1] and have found that allows me to organize
my email with far greater ease than mutt would although still suffers
from some major drawbacks. I am currently putting together some patches
for asynchronous subprocess support in vim so that it can be used as a
usable frontend for notmuch[1]. When I have finished this, I'll be
switching to notmuch, which in my opinion seems to be the ideal mail
management solution.

As I mentioned in my original reply, I use procmail and spamassassin for
mail filtering and have been quite happy with it.

> One thing to mention, under windows, for example to change something in the
> taskbar without mouse: press win-logo, press it again (it will be
> activated), press tab then tab till you reach the taskbar, then press the
> right-click-input, then choose from the menu, now tell me if this is could
> be easily done (by default) under Ubuntu? indeed Ubuntu was designed to be
> very user friendly that the design lack a support for the developers who
> lover keyboard, their only alternative is commands over terminal, yet there
> is not a default shortcut-key to open the terminal.
> 
What exactly do you want to do? I only rarely find myself using the
mouse for window management. I use compiz and have it configured quite
nicely. That notwithstanding, one can perform pretty much anything using
nothing but Alt-Tab and Alt-Space. The lack of a default is intentional.
Users differ in their preferences and Ubuntu (in general) tries not to
impose any key bindings that aren't already widely accepted by users.
Keybindings are readily configurable, however, in the Keyboard Shortcuts
configuration applet.

- Ben

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Re: Question about this list

[Kenny Hitt]

Hi.  My problem with sites like google or yahoo for mail is accessibility.
I'm a totally blind person.  Both web sites use javascript that force me into a 
Firefox session if I want to use them.
Unfortunately, the Mozilla developers seem to put most of there recent efforts 
into Windows access while letting
Linux access get ignored.
I have no problem reading mailing lists with mutt or reading the list archives 
with elinks, so google groups is something
for me to avoid when ever possible.
Mutt is a very powerful email client.  I've tried others, but always end up 
back with mutt because it has features I've
never found in other mail clients.

I can't afford the cost of Windows or a Windows screen reader, so don't even 
suggest I use Windows!

  Kenny


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Re: Question about this list

[Amahdy]

>
> >* >Because what we have works very well and doesn't rely on an external 
> >entity.
> *>*
> *>* We all know that there is "no bug free software", so if mailman is very 
> good,
> *>* google-groups are -per my usage- very good too
> *
> Excellent. Your usage evidently differs from that of a great number of
>
> open source hackers, in that case.
>
>
That's why I asked after that "I'm always wondering why", I can't understand
it and can't find a logic answer, this describe my email-subject.

>* >Mailing lists are the lifeblood of most open source projects.
> *>*
> *>* Always wondering why!! why not move on to a *group*
> *>*
> *A better question would be why _should we_ move on to a "group." I see
> no clear answer to this question.
>
>
If you don't want a feauture, you can disable it (like not putting external
plugins in this mailing list and keep it that simple), google-groups offers
to disable whatever you don't want to, but as for my suggestion to move, I
already mentioned many of them: starting from bugs (I come here with 3 of
them till now), and by lowering costs ... I already tried to explain many
things yet not all of them, why u don't tell me the idea maybe I could see
your point of view.

>* >they perform their designated task far more effectively.
> *>*
> *>* More effectively based on what?
> *
> More effective given the criteria of being able to send email to a group
> of subscribers in a reliable and consistent fashion with little
> administrative overhead. Most subscribers have no desire to use the
>
> "features" that you mentioned above ("files storage, docs") for the same
> reason that they despise the HTML MIME attachments that accompany your
> email.  I work from a console and prefer to keep it that way whenever
>
> possible.  Breaking into a browser for me is a distraction at best and
> effectively impossible at worst (i.e. offline). The idea of a mailing
> list is quite simple: allow individuals to communicate ideas within a
> group quickly and simply. Any "features" beyond this are little more
>
> than a distraction.
>
>
As I said, you can disable whatever you don't like as feature, google-groups
by default is HTML-disabled and could be fixed-width font-type (which I
prefer because it looks like the code) ... but just tell me the
administration overhead for managing a google-group is harder than the case
for this mailing list server??? simple task here: preventing spam, which is
completely out of my *head* at google-groups.

If you like your console, you still can receive the emails through rss, I
don't know how you read emails now to argue but I guess (maybe I'm wrong
here) that xml-reader will be much easier, or organized, or as I said I
won't argue here but definitely there is a way out here. At least ask
Mozilla hackers what they do.

>* in our list here, open the archive, then choose January-2010, then
> *>* choose sort by date, then open a random thread, then press "Next"
> *
> As I mentioned before, I think the Google Groups archive interface is a
> perfect example of why it shouldn't be used for technical discussion. It
> is a user-interface nightmare.
>
>
Don't know why, maybe you can say that on Yahoo-groups or any service that
focus on design and styles but google, uuh .. ?



-- Amahdy AbdElAziz
IT & Development Manager
3D Diagnostix Inc. www.3ddx.com
http://www.linkedin.com/in/amahdyabdelaziz
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Re: Question about this list

[Amahdy]

If other developers put sometime to make life easier (and faster) for us.
There is a user interface, a browser, an email client ..etc, then only
because I like the keyboard I'll use terminal?? I do like terminal and I use
it many times to facilate my life through commands, but I said to "facilate"
because I know the command and I can type it faster than mouse movement, but
not beause I'm a terminal fan then I must do everything on it.
So my new question here is (which probably I asked before but here is
re-formed):
What exactly terminal commands or program that those ppl use to read the
list mails, maybe I'll get convienced and as I asked before I want to know
so that I can use this list better because for me it's currently very hard
to use.

One thing to mention, under windows, for example to change something in the
taskbar without mouse: press win-logo, press it again (it will be
activated), press tab then tab till you reach the taskbar, then press the
right-click-input, then choose from the menu, now tell me if this is could
be easily done (by default) under Ubuntu? indeed Ubuntu was designed to be
very user friendly that the design lack a support for the developers who
lover keyboard, their only alternative is commands over terminal, yet there
is not a default shortcut-key to open the terminal.


-- Amahdy AbdElAziz
IT & Development Manager
3D Diagnostix Inc. www.3ddx.com
http://www.linkedin.com/in/amahdyabdelaziz

Many people cannot click this or click that because they are reading and
> sending email in a terminal. Developers will tend to be keyboard users and
>
> cannot be bothered with a mouse pointer. (Although Gmail itself is very
> keyboard friendly for navigation.)
>
> Yours,
> Anzan
>
>
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Re: Question about this list

[Ben Gamari]

Excerpts from Ben Gamari's message of Wed Jan 27 20:59:36 -0500 2010:
Excerpts from Amahdy's message of Wed Jan 27 20:01:09 -0500 2010:
> >Because what we have works very well and doesn't rely on an external entity.
> 
> We all know that there is "no bug free software", so if mailman is very good,
> google-groups are -per my usage- very good too

Excellent. Your usage evidently differs from that of a great number of
open source hackers, in that case.

> >Mailing lists are the lifeblood of most open source projects.
> 
> Always wondering why!! why not move on to a *group*
> 
A better question would be why _should we_ move on to a "group." I see
no clear answer to this question.

> >they perform their designated task far more effectively.
> 
> More effectively based on what?

More effective given the criteria of being able to send email to a group
of subscribers in a reliable and consistent fashion with little
administrative overhead. Most subscribers have no desire to use the
"features" that you mentioned above ("files storage, docs") for the same
reason that they despise the HTML MIME attachments that accompany your
email.  I work from a console and prefer to keep it that way whenever
possible.  Breaking into a browser for me is a distraction at best and
effectively impossible at worst (i.e. offline). The idea of a mailing
list is quite simple: allow individuals to communicate ideas within a
group quickly and simply. Any "features" beyond this are little more
than a distraction.

> in our list here, open the archive, then choose January-2010, then
> choose sort by date, then open a random thread, then press "Next"

As I mentioned before, I think the Google Groups archive interface is a
perfect example of why it shouldn't be used for technical discussion. It
is a user-interface nightmare.

Cheers,
- Ben

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Re: Question about this list

[Amahdy]

I don't know I just sent the email like I do everytime, maybe this list
tryied to agree  what I said by its way by showing that it still contains
strange+old bugs ... I haven't did something that couldn't be handled: from
my GMail, reply to message and press send, the message is half published but
still exists in the list-database and sent it over the digest so definitely
there must be something wrong in its processing here ...



-- Amahdy AbdElAziz
IT & Development Manager
3D Diagnostix Inc. www.3ddx.com
http://www.linkedin.com/in/amahdyabdelaziz


On Thu, 28 Jan 2010 03:10:59 +0200
> Amahdy  > wrote:
>
> >* Is there some kind of problem here or is it for me only? my email is never
> *>* continued, it cut off the rest of the email starting from the word: F - R 
> -
> *>* O - M -- a - n - o - t - h - e - r  do I only have this problem or
> *>* what's exactly?
> *
>
> I don't know what is happening to your emails, but I think it is on
> your end...
>
> Here is the message before this one, which this seemed to be a reply to:
>
>
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Re: Question about this list

[Charlie Kravetz]

On Thu, 28 Jan 2010 03:01:09 +0200
Amahdy  wrote:

> >Because what we have works very well and doesn't rely on an external
> entity.
> 
> We all know that there is "no bug free software", so if mailman is very
> good, google-groups are -per my usage- very good too
> 
> >Mailing lists are the lifeblood of most open source projects.
> 
> Always wondering why!! why not move on to a *group*
> 
> >Tying your mailing list service to an external provider makes little sense
> in most cases.
> 
> That's why maybe google made something called external archive, so if you
> like you can store your emails somewhere outside Google.
> 
> >Requiring people to hand their personal information over to Google just to
> participate in a project is unreasonable.
> 
> You can use it anonymously (if the admin specified that), or else I'm still
> asked to give my info here to be registered, if I don't want to I may give
> fake one it's not a big deal, it's internet!
> 
> I do like emails of course, and also of course I know how to filter out and
> label (though at google-groups I can specify a specific filter to apply on
> delivery from the beginning), but I also want system with more feature, like
> files storage, docs, it's new tech why not use it?
> From another post I see that one way of getting some revenue, Canonical
> decided to make a deal with Yahoo, so why not as a way of lowering costs,
> use another free service instead of paying for lots of
> servers/load/bandwidth/administration ... etc
> 
> Those are just thoughts nothing more, as personal experience, we in my
> company are using a google-group as way of "development-list" and it's
> pretty excellent for us specially when I can do many many things with almost
> perfection.
> 
> Another example is, Mozilla, they actually moved to google groups, I don't
> think it's their partnership that made that or else they might move their
> source code into a google-code and in the other hand Google wouldn't coded
> their own bug-tracker and used bugzilla instead...
> 
> >they perform their designated task far more effectively.
> 
> More effectively based on what? in our list here, open the archive, then
> choose January-2010, then choose sort by date, then open a random thread,
> then press "Next"
> The next one will be the next one "by thread" not "by date" as expected,
> this maybe a small bug (but I don't think so) or maybe it's something that
> wasn't "designated" from the beginning. and here is what I wanted to
> perform: open the list-page sorted by date and read the new threads by
> pressing next, next ... not by click, then back, then scroll, then click,
> then aahhh I opened this one before that ... then close the browser and I
> don't want to read anything. what if from my simple browsing I want to just
> hit reply and send, this also not in the design at all, instead I MUST use
> an email client which is oh my god I was just navigating the list from my
> mobile phone and it does not contains a multi-tab to open the email in
> another tab without loosing this page 
> 
> 
> -- Amahdy AbdElAziz
> IT & Development Manager
> 3D Diagnostix Inc. www.3ddx.com
> http://www.linkedin.com/in/amahdyabdelaziz

Personally, I prefer claws-mail, which allows me to read and store my
mail without being in a web-browser at all.

I have used google-groups before, and the format leaves much to be
desired also, especially for those who do not use the browser on a
constant basis.

-- 
Charlie Kravetz 
Linux Registered User Number 425914  [http://counter.li.org/]
Never let anyone steal your DREAM.   [http://keepingdreams.com]

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Re: Question about this list

[Charlie Kravetz]

On Thu, 28 Jan 2010 03:10:59 +0200
Amahdy  wrote:

> Is there some kind of problem here or is it for me only? my email is never
> continued, it cut off the rest of the email starting from the word: F - R -
> O - M -- a - n - o - t - h - e - r  do I only have this problem or
> what's exactly?


I don't know what is happening to your emails, but I think it is on
your end...

Here is the message before this one, which this seemed to be a reply to:

*** AND I DON'T KNOW WHY MY EMAIL WAS NOT COMPLETELY SENT, HERE IS THE
REST OF IT ***

... it's new tech why not use it?

>From another post I see that one way of getting some revenue, Canonical
decided to make a deal with Yahoo, so why not as a way of lowering
costs, use another free service instead of paying for lots of
servers/load/bandwidth/
administration ... etc

Those are just thoughts nothing more, as personal experience, we in my
company are using a google-group as way of "development-list" and it's
pretty excellent for us specially when I can do many many things with
almost perfection.

Another example is, Mozilla, they actually moved to google groups, I
don't think it's their partnership that made that or else they might
move their source code into a google-code and in the other hand Google
wouldn't coded their own bug-tracker and used bugzilla instead...

>they perform their designated task far more effectively.

More effectively based on what? in our list here, open the archive, then
choose January-2010, then choose sort by date, then open a random
thread, then press "Next"
The next one will be the next one "by thread" not "by date" as expected,
this maybe a small bug (but I don't think so) or maybe it's something
that wasn't "designated" from the beginning. and here is what I wanted
to perform: open the list-page sorted by date and read the new threads
by pressing next, next ... not by click, then back, then scroll, then
click, then aahhh I opened this one before that ... then close the
browser and I don't want to read anything. what if from my simple
browsing I want to just hit reply and send, this also not in the design
at all, instead I MUST use an email client which is oh my god I was
just navigating the list from my mobile phone and it does not contains
a multi-tab to open the email in another tab without loosing this
page 



-- Amahdy AbdElAziz
IT & Development Manager
3D Diagnostix Inc. www.3ddx.com
http://www.linkedin.com/in/amahdyabdelaziz


I fail to see where it lost anything?


-- 
Charlie Kravetz 
Linux Registered User Number 425914  [http://counter.li.org/]
Never let anyone steal your DREAM.   [http://keepingdreams.com]

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Re: Question about this list

[Amahdy]

Anybody who read my original email in the digest will notice the problem,
the "From" has a special-char before it but I never typed it in my original
email, I don't know why this happened too maybe somebody could explain, but
my email is cropped at the original list website.



-- Amahdy AbdElAziz
IT & Development Manager
3D Diagnostix Inc. www.3ddx.com
http://www.linkedin.com/in/amahdyabdelaziz



On Thu, Jan 28, 2010 at 03:10, Amahdy  wrote:

> Is there some kind of problem here or is it for me only? my email is never
> continued, it cut off the rest of the email starting from the word: F - R -
> O - M -- a - n - o - t - h - e - r  do I only have this problem or
> what's exactly?
>
>
>
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Re: Question about this list

[Anzan Hoshin Roshi]

2010/1/27 Amahdy 

>
> More effectively based on what? in our list here, open the archive, then
> choose January-2010, then choose sort by date, then open a random thread,
> then press "Next"
> The next one will be the next one "by thread" not "by date" as expected,
> this maybe a small bug (but I don't think so) or maybe it's something that
> wasn't "designated" from the beginning. and here is what I wanted to
> perform: open the list-page sorted by date and read the new threads by
> pressing next, next ... not by click, then back, then scroll, then click,
> then aahhh I opened this one before that ... then close the browser and I
> don't want to read anything. what if from my simple browsing I want to just
> hit reply and send, this also not in the design at all, instead I MUST use
> an email client which is oh my god I was just navigating the list from my
> mobile phone and it does not contains a multi-tab to open the email in
> another tab without loosing this page 
>
>
>
Many people cannot click this or click that because they are reading and
sending email in a terminal. Developers will tend to be keyboard users and
cannot be bothered with a mouse pointer. (Although Gmail itself is very
keyboard friendly for navigation.)

Yours,
Anzan
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Re: Question about this list

[Amahdy]

Is there some kind of problem here or is it for me only? my email is never
continued, it cut off the rest of the email starting from the word: F - R -
O - M -- a - n - o - t - h - e - r  do I only have this problem or
what's exactly?
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Re: Question about this list

[Amahdy]

*** AND I DON'T KNOW WHY MY EMAIL WAS NOT COMPLETELY SENT, HERE IS THE REST
OF IT ***

... it's new tech why not use it?

>From another post I see that one way of getting some revenue, Canonical
decided to make a deal with Yahoo, so why not as a way of lowering costs,
use another free service instead of paying for lots of
servers/load/bandwidth/
administration ... etc

Those are just thoughts nothing more, as personal experience, we in my
company are using a google-group as way of "development-list" and it's
pretty excellent for us specially when I can do many many things with almost
perfection.

Another example is, Mozilla, they actually moved to google groups, I don't
think it's their partnership that made that or else they might move their
source code into a google-code and in the other hand Google wouldn't coded
their own bug-tracker and used bugzilla instead...

>they perform their designated task far more effectively.

More effectively based on what? in our list here, open the archive, then
choose January-2010, then choose sort by date, then open a random thread,
then press "Next"
The next one will be the next one "by thread" not "by date" as expected,
this maybe a small bug (but I don't think so) or maybe it's something that
wasn't "designated" from the beginning. and here is what I wanted to
perform: open the list-page sorted by date and read the new threads by
pressing next, next ... not by click, then back, then scroll, then click,
then aahhh I opened this one before that ... then close the browser and I
don't want to read anything. what if from my simple browsing I want to just
hit reply and send, this also not in the design at all, instead I MUST use
an email client which is oh my god I was just navigating the list from my
mobile phone and it does not contains a multi-tab to open the email in
another tab without loosing this page 



-- Amahdy AbdElAziz
IT & Development Manager
3D Diagnostix Inc. www.3ddx.com
http://www.linkedin.com/in/amahdyabdelaziz
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Re: Question about this list

[Amahdy]

>Because what we have works very well and doesn't rely on an external
entity.

We all know that there is "no bug free software", so if mailman is very
good, google-groups are -per my usage- very good too

>Mailing lists are the lifeblood of most open source projects.

Always wondering why!! why not move on to a *group*

>Tying your mailing list service to an external provider makes little sense
in most cases.

That's why maybe google made something called external archive, so if you
like you can store your emails somewhere outside Google.

>Requiring people to hand their personal information over to Google just to
participate in a project is unreasonable.

You can use it anonymously (if the admin specified that), or else I'm still
asked to give my info here to be registered, if I don't want to I may give
fake one it's not a big deal, it's internet!

I do like emails of course, and also of course I know how to filter out and
label (though at google-groups I can specify a specific filter to apply on
delivery from the beginning), but I also want system with more feature, like
files storage, docs, it's new tech why not use it?
>From another post I see that one way of getting some revenue, Canonical
decided to make a deal with Yahoo, so why not as a way of lowering costs,
use another free service instead of paying for lots of
servers/load/bandwidth/administration ... etc

Those are just thoughts nothing more, as personal experience, we in my
company are using a google-group as way of "development-list" and it's
pretty excellent for us specially when I can do many many things with almost
perfection.

Another example is, Mozilla, they actually moved to google groups, I don't
think it's their partnership that made that or else they might move their
source code into a google-code and in the other hand Google wouldn't coded
their own bug-tracker and used bugzilla instead...

>they perform their designated task far more effectively.

More effectively based on what? in our list here, open the archive, then
choose January-2010, then choose sort by date, then open a random thread,
then press "Next"
The next one will be the next one "by thread" not "by date" as expected,
this maybe a small bug (but I don't think so) or maybe it's something that
wasn't "designated" from the beginning. and here is what I wanted to
perform: open the list-page sorted by date and read the new threads by
pressing next, next ... not by click, then back, then scroll, then click,
then aahhh I opened this one before that ... then close the browser and I
don't want to read anything. what if from my simple browsing I want to just
hit reply and send, this also not in the design at all, instead I MUST use
an email client which is oh my god I was just navigating the list from my
mobile phone and it does not contains a multi-tab to open the email in
another tab without loosing this page 


-- Amahdy AbdElAziz
IT & Development Manager
3D Diagnostix Inc. www.3ddx.com
http://www.linkedin.com/in/amahdyabdelaziz
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Re: Question about this list

[Andrew SB]

On Wed, Jan 27, 2010 at 1:47 PM, Amahdy  wrote:
> 2- I find it always difficult to keep updated with this kind of lists, what
> type of software do you use? please share it with me, I find it very
> difficult to rely on a kind of RSS because I want to hit "reply" and "quote"
> the part of the message that I like, is there an advanced feature for that?
> 3- The OpenSource managers, why they prefer this kind of lists usually? it
> ends to be a very old fashion and not user friendly at all, or whatdya
> think?

Well, I'd say it's as user friendly as your email client, which is of
course the best tool to follow an email list.

I see you have a gmail address. If you are subscribed to the list
click "show details" and then "Filter messages from this mailing
list." You can then set up a separate folder for the list and set it
to skip your inbox so it doesn't clutter more important emails.

-- Andrew SB

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Re: Question about this list

[Ben Gamari]

Excerpts from Amahdy's message of Wed Jan 27 13:47:52 -0500 2010:
> Many Open-Source communities use this kind of mailman mailing-lists
> I feel missing something here but really wondering why? even for new
> projects like Ubuntu (founded 2004 which is new to know other alternative
> technologies)
> 
> I love the Google-groups style, if you don't like Google there was always
> Yahoo, which both of them contains bunch of features and the ease of use ...
> Also some-how, forums are *ok* but with some preservations.
> 
> Back to this email's subject, about my question, actually they are 3:
> 
> 1- Google-group has a feature to an external-archive which could be a list,
> why not move on?

Because what we have works very well and doesn't rely on an external
entity. Mailing lists are the lifeblood of most open source projects.
Tying your mailing list service to an external provider makes little
sense in most cases. Requiring people to hand their personal information
over to Google just to participate in a project is unreasonable.

Furthermore, I have still yet to see a google groups-style interface
that handles threading even remotely sanely.  Without proper threading,
technical conversations quickly turn into an unintelligible mess. Try
following the LKML on Google Groups; it's simply unusable.

Lastly, when it comes to electronic communication email is the
lowest common denominator and can be easily processed with simple tools.
This is incredibly important when it comes to sorting and processing
large quantities of communications.

> 2- I find it always difficult to keep updated with this kind of lists, what
> type of software do you use? please share it with me, I find it very
> difficult to rely on a kind of RSS because I want to hit "reply" and "quote"
> the part of the message that I like, is there an advanced feature for that?

Just use your MUA. I use sup (although I'm slowly shifting to notmuch
and vim).  Both of these applications are very well suited to dealing
with truly massive mail volumes. Many people also use mutt which also
performs admirably. Some use Thunderbird and other graphical mail
clients, although in my opinion the graphical interface makes it very
difficult to process large quantities of mail efficiently.

There are a variety of options for mail filtering and sorting.  I
personally use procmail. It is simple and does its job quite well.

> 3- The OpenSource managers, why they prefer this kind of lists usually? it
> ends to be a very old fashion and not user friendly at all, or whatdya
> think?
> 
Answered above. I would argue that while our current tools may not be as
pretty as the more "modern" alternatives, they perform their designated
task far more effectively.

- Ben

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Question about this list

[Amahdy]

Many Open-Source communities use this kind of mailman mailing-lists
I feel missing something here but really wondering why? even for new
projects like Ubuntu (founded 2004 which is new to know other alternative
technologies)

I love the Google-groups style, if you don't like Google there was always
Yahoo, which both of them contains bunch of features and the ease of use ...
Also some-how, forums are *ok* but with some preservations.

Back to this email's subject, about my question, actually they are 3:

1- Google-group has a feature to an external-archive which could be a list,
why not move on?
2- I find it always difficult to keep updated with this kind of lists, what
type of software do you use? please share it with me, I find it very
difficult to rely on a kind of RSS because I want to hit "reply" and "quote"
the part of the message that I like, is there an advanced feature for that?
3- The OpenSource managers, why they prefer this kind of lists usually? it
ends to be a very old fashion and not user friendly at all, or whatdya
think?

Thanks


-- Amahdy AbdElAziz
IT & Development Manager
3D Diagnostix Inc. www.3ddx.com
http://www.linkedin.com/in/amahdyabdelaziz
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