Re: Apache2 in default Ubuntu install

[Evan]

On Fri, Aug 13, 2010 at 3:05 PM, Louis Simard  wrote:
> At 2010-08-13 08:39 GMT, Joshua Timberman  wrote:
>> Hello!
>>
>> On Aug 13, 2010, at 12:37 AM, Micah Gersten wrote:
>>
>>> Because sensible defaults are necessary.  You get your choice of Apache
>>> or something else.  If you selected another httpd on install and php5
>>> dragged in apache, that might qualify as a bug.  If you selected
>>> nothing, well you get the sensible default which is Apache.
>>
>>
>> Why not have the depends something like:
>>
>> Depends: ... apache2 | lighthttpd | nginx | otherhttpserverphpworkswith ...
>>
>> So that if one of the others is installed, php5 doesn't try to install 
>> apache2?
>>
>> --
>> Opscode, Inc
>> Joshua Timberman, Technical Evangelist
>> C: 720.334.RUBY E: jos...@opscode.com
>>
>>
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>
> Or, perhaps more future-proof, have php5-cgi "Depend" on a new virtual
> package called http-server or something, and make
> apache/nginx/lighttpd/... "Provide" http-server.
>
> However, I don't know how one would go about making the php5-cgi
> package install the proper library (like libapache2-mod-php5) for the
> specific httpd that's actually installed, upon installing php5-cgi
> itself... except via Suggests/Recommends + the user opting to install
> the proper one afterwards :)

What would really be useful here would be some sort
of dpkg co-depends field. So php5 co-depends on
apache-mod-php with apache, it co-depends on lighttpd-php
(or whatever the package is) with lighttpd, etc.

Probably too complex to ever get into Debian, but an
interesting idea none-the-less.

Evan

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Re: Apache2 in default Ubuntu install

[Louis Simard]

At 2010-08-13 08:39 GMT, Joshua Timberman  wrote:
> Hello!
>
> On Aug 13, 2010, at 12:37 AM, Micah Gersten wrote:
>
>> Because sensible defaults are necessary.  You get your choice of Apache
>> or something else.  If you selected another httpd on install and php5
>> dragged in apache, that might qualify as a bug.  If you selected
>> nothing, well you get the sensible default which is Apache.
>
>
> Why not have the depends something like:
>
> Depends: ... apache2 | lighthttpd | nginx | otherhttpserverphpworkswith ...
>
> So that if one of the others is installed, php5 doesn't try to install 
> apache2?
>
> --
> Opscode, Inc
> Joshua Timberman, Technical Evangelist
> C: 720.334.RUBY E: jos...@opscode.com
>
>
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Or, perhaps more future-proof, have php5-cgi "Depend" on a new virtual
package called http-server or something, and make
apache/nginx/lighttpd/... "Provide" http-server.

However, I don't know how one would go about making the php5-cgi
package install the proper library (like libapache2-mod-php5) for the
specific httpd that's actually installed, upon installing php5-cgi
itself... except via Suggests/Recommends + the user opting to install
the proper one afterwards :)

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Re: Apache2 in default Ubuntu install

[Joshua Timberman]

Hello!

On Aug 13, 2010, at 12:37 AM, Micah Gersten wrote:

> Because sensible defaults are necessary.  You get your choice of Apache 
> or something else.  If you selected another httpd on install and php5 
> dragged in apache, that might qualify as a bug.  If you selected 
> nothing, well you get the sensible default which is Apache.


Why not have the depends something like:

Depends: ... apache2 | lighthttpd | nginx | otherhttpserverphpworkswith ...

So that if one of the others is installed, php5 doesn't try to install apache2?

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C: 720.334.RUBY E: jos...@opscode.com


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Re: Apache2 in default Ubuntu install

[Micah Gersten]

Ccing the list back

On 08/13/2010 02:31 AM, Harry Strongburg wrote:
> On Fri, Aug 13, 2010 at 3:23 AM, Micah Gersten  > wrote:
>
> On 08/13/2010 02:06 AM, Harry Strongburg wrote:
>  > On Fri, Aug 13, 2010 at 6:00 AM, Martin
> Pittmailto:martin.p...@ubuntu.com>>  wrote:
>  >> php5 installs everything related to PHP, which includes the web
> server
>  >> module. If you only want the command line interpreter, but none
> of the
>  >> web stuff, just install php5-cli instead. But I dare to claim that
>  >> most people who want PHP actually want it as a web server platform.
>  >
>  > Apache is not the only httpd in the world that supports PHP-CGI!
> PHP can be run with most httpds.
>  > Bundling the php5 package to install Apache is like selling
> T-Shirts along with jeans, but packaged together. There's a large
> chance that the end-user will use the pants that were sold with the
> T-Shirt, but why package them together? The end-user should have
> more options, not less!
>  > (It's a bad example, but it's all I can think of at 4 AM :))
>
> Which would probably explain why php5-cgi doesn't pull in apache:
>
>
> Still doesn't change the fact that the package "php5", which most users
> will install (and includes both -cli and -cgi), is forcing an Apache
> install. Call me a lighttpd fanboy, but I just fail to see why Apache is
> a dependency for php5, because it is not. It's the most popular httpd,
> but that is no reason to make it a dependency on the php5 package. At
> least give the user at time of install the option to chose what httpd
> they want, if any? More is always better than none or limited choices.

Because sensible defaults are necessary.  You get your choice of Apache 
or something else.  If you selected another httpd on install and php5 
dragged in apache, that might qualify as a bug.  If you selected 
nothing, well you get the sensible default which is Apache.
apt-cache show php5
Package: php5

Depends: libapache2-mod-php5 (>= 5.3.2-1ubuntu4.2) | 
libapache2-mod-php5filter (>= 5.3.2-1ubuntu4.2) | php5-cgi (>= 
5.3.2-1ubuntu4.2), php5-common (>= 5.3.2-1ubuntu4.2)

Description: server-side, HTML-embedded scripting language (metapackage)
  This package is a metapackage that, when installed, guarantees that you
  have at least one of the three server-side versions of the PHP5 
interpreter
  installed. Removing this package won't remove PHP5 from your system, 
however
  it may remove other packages that depend on this one.


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Re: Apache2 in default Ubuntu install

[Micah Gersten]

On 08/13/2010 02:06 AM, Harry Strongburg wrote:
> On Fri, Aug 13, 2010 at 6:00 AM, Martin Pitt  wrote:
>> php5 installs everything related to PHP, which includes the web server
>> module. If you only want the command line interpreter, but none of the
>> web stuff, just install php5-cli instead. But I dare to claim that
>> most people who want PHP actually want it as a web server platform.
>
> Apache is not the only httpd in the world that supports PHP-CGI! PHP can be 
> run with most httpds.
> Bundling the php5 package to install Apache is like selling T-Shirts along 
> with jeans, but packaged together. There's a large chance that the end-user 
> will use the pants that were sold with the T-Shirt, but why package them 
> together? The end-user should have more options, not less!
> (It's a bad example, but it's all I can think of at 4 AM :))

Which would probably explain why php5-cgi doesn't pull in apache:
apt-cache show php5-cgi
Package: php5-cgi

Depends: libbz2-1.0, libc6 (>= 2.11), libcomerr2 (>= 1.01), libdb4.8, 
libgssapi-krb5-2 (>= 1.6.dfsg.2), libk5crypto3 (>= 1.6.dfsg.2), 
libkrb5-3 (>= 1.6.dfsg.2), libpcre3 (>= 7.7), libssl0.9.8 (>= 0.9.8k-1), 
libxml2 (>= 2.7.4), zlib1g (>= 1:1.1.4), mime-support, php5-common (= 
5.3.2-1ubuntu4.2), libmagic1, ucf, tzdata
Suggests: php-pear

Description: server-side, HTML-embedded scripting language (CGI binary)
  This package provides the /usr/lib/cgi-bin/php5 CGI interpreter built
  for use in Apache 2 with mod_actions, or any other CGI httpd that
  supports a similar mechanism.  Note that MOST Apache users probably
  want the libapache2-mod-php5 package.
  The following extensions are built in: bcmath bz2 calendar Core ctype date
   dba dom ereg exif fileinfo filter ftp gettext hash iconv json libxml
   mbstring mhash openssl pcre Phar posix Reflection session shmop SimpleXML
   soap sockets SPL standard sysvmsg sysvsem sysvshm tokenizer wddx xml
   xmlreader xmlwriter zip zlib.
  .
  PHP5 is an HTML-embedded scripting language. Much of its syntax is 
borrowed
  from C, Java and Perl with a couple of unique PHP-specific features thrown
  in. The goal of the language is to allow web developers to write 
dynamically
  generated pages quickly. This version of PHP5 was built with the 
Suhosin patch.


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Re: Apache2 in default Ubuntu install

[Harry Strongburg]

On Fri, Aug 13, 2010 at 6:00 AM, Martin Pitt  wrote:
> php5 installs everything related to PHP, which includes the web server
> module. If you only want the command line interpreter, but none of the
> web stuff, just install php5-cli instead. But I dare to claim that
> most people who want PHP actually want it as a web server platform.

Apache is not the only httpd in the world that supports PHP-CGI! PHP can be run 
with most httpds.
Bundling the php5 package to install Apache is like selling T-Shirts along with 
jeans, but packaged together. There's a large chance that the end-user will use 
the pants that were sold with the T-Shirt, but why package them together? The 
end-user should have more options, not less!
(It's a bad example, but it's all I can think of at 4 AM :))

On Fri, Aug 13, 2010 at 07:46:01AM +0100, Phillip Whiteside wrote:
> In Harry's defence I'd like to point out that using tasksel for a LAMP
> installation does at least give you a choice of apache2 or lightpd. So, php
> should not really be dragging anything in as a 'depends'. Those wishing to
> install LAMP can do so quite easily.

Exactly! Can also add in nginx, cherokee, and any other similar httpds that 
would work with PHP?


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Re: Apache2 in default Ubuntu install

[Phillip Whiteside]

Although,

In Harry's defence I'd like to point out that using tasksel for a LAMP
installation does at least give you a choice of apache2 or lightpd. So, php
should not really be dragging anything in as a 'depends'. Those wishing to
install LAMP can do so quite easily.

Regards,

Phill.

On Fri, Aug 13, 2010 at 6:00 AM, Martin Pitt  wrote:

> Hello Harry,
>
> Harry Strongburg [2010-08-13  4:55 +]:
> > I found out why though, it's packaged with php5, which is also
> > pretty stupid to do. If a user installs PHP, they should also
> > install any httpd they want. Not Apache automatically.
>
> php5 installs everything related to PHP, which includes the web server
> module. If you only want the command line interpreter, but none of the
> web stuff, just install php5-cli instead. But I dare to claim that
> most people who want PHP actually want it as a web server platform.
>
> Martin
>
> --
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> Ubuntu Developer (www.ubuntu.com)  | Debian Developer  (www.debian.org)
>
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Re: Apache2 in default Ubuntu install

[Martin Pitt]

Hello Harry,

Harry Strongburg [2010-08-13  4:55 +]:
> I found out why though, it's packaged with php5, which is also
> pretty stupid to do. If a user installs PHP, they should also
> install any httpd they want. Not Apache automatically.

php5 installs everything related to PHP, which includes the web server
module. If you only want the command line interpreter, but none of the
web stuff, just install php5-cli instead. But I dare to claim that
most people who want PHP actually want it as a web server platform.

Martin

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Ubuntu Developer (www.ubuntu.com)  | Debian Developer  (www.debian.org)

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Re: Apache2 in default Ubuntu install

[Harry Strongburg]

On Fri, Aug 13, 2010 at 03:55:24AM +0100, Phillip Whiteside wrote:
> Not wishing to get involved in arguments, but an LTS is just that. As apache
> is the major market of hhtp [1] it is imprortant for LTS that it will be
> able to be supported for five years. This would not be possible with
> apache1.
> > Why is apache2 in the default Ubuntu install?
> >
> > I upgraded from 9.10 to 10.04 LTS today, and the upgrade procedure
> > installed Apache2 onto my box, even though I have had it autoremoved for a
> > long time.
> > It also did this on another server I upgraded, and that server runs
> > lighttpd too!
> >
> > >Selecting previously deselected package apache2.2-bin.
> > >Unpacking apache2.2-bin (from .../apache2.2-bin_2.2.14-5ubuntu8_i386.deb)
> > ...
> > >Selecting previously deselected package apache2-utils.
> > >Unpacking apache2-utils (from .../apache2-utils_2.2.14-5ubuntu8_i386.deb)
> > ...
> > >Selecting previously deselected package apache2.2-common.
> > >Unpacking apache2.2-common (from
> > .../apache2.2-common_2.2.14-5ubuntu8_i386.deb) ...
> > >Selecting previously deselected package apache2-mpm-prefork.
> > >Unpacking apache2-mpm-prefork (from
> > .../apache2-mpm-prefork_2.2.14-5ubuntu8_i386.deb) ...
> >
> > Why do you do this, Ubuntu developers? Apache2 isn't required for an Ubuntu
> > install, and heck, it SHOULDN'T be in a default install. If a user wants to
> > run a httpd, they can install it themselves.

You missed the point. I am *not* suggesting apache1 be added instead of 
apache2, I am saying NO apache *at all* should be installed "out-of-the-box".
I found out why though, it's packaged with php5, which is also pretty stupid to 
do. If a user installs PHP, they should also install any httpd they want. Not 
Apache automatically.

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Re: Apache2 in default Ubuntu install

[Scott Kitterman]

"Harry Strongburg"  wrote:

>On Thu, Aug 12, 2010 at 09:34:24PM -0400, Scott Kitterman wrote:
>> It's not in the default install.  Look at the output of aptitude why 
>> apache2-mpm-prefork to see what pulled it in.
>
>So it just happened to have been auto-installed on all the boxes I upgraded 
>from 9.10 to 10.04? That's weird.
>
>How do I find out why it was installed?

Read the second sentence of my last message. 

Scott K

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Re: Apache2 in default Ubuntu install

[Phillip Whiteside]

Hi,

Not wishing to get involved in arguments, but an LTS is just that. As apache
is the major market of hhtp [1] it is imprortant for LTS that it will be
able to be supported for five years. This would not be possible with
apache1.

Regards,
Phill
[1]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apache_HTTP_Server

On Fri, Aug 13, 2010 at 1:07 AM, Harry Strongburg wrote:

> Why is apache2 in the default Ubuntu install?
>
> I upgraded from 9.10 to 10.04 LTS today, and the upgrade procedure
> installed Apache2 onto my box, even though I have had it autoremoved for a
> long time.
> It also did this on another server I upgraded, and that server runs
> lighttpd too!
>
> >Selecting previously deselected package apache2.2-bin.
> >Unpacking apache2.2-bin (from .../apache2.2-bin_2.2.14-5ubuntu8_i386.deb)
> ...
> >Selecting previously deselected package apache2-utils.
> >Unpacking apache2-utils (from .../apache2-utils_2.2.14-5ubuntu8_i386.deb)
> ...
> >Selecting previously deselected package apache2.2-common.
> >Unpacking apache2.2-common (from
> .../apache2.2-common_2.2.14-5ubuntu8_i386.deb) ...
> >Selecting previously deselected package apache2-mpm-prefork.
> >Unpacking apache2-mpm-prefork (from
> .../apache2-mpm-prefork_2.2.14-5ubuntu8_i386.deb) ...
>
> Why do you do this, Ubuntu developers? Apache2 isn't required for an Ubuntu
> install, and heck, it SHOULDN'T be in a default install. If a user wants to
> run a httpd, they can install it themselves.
>
> Thanks.
>
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Re: Apache2 in default Ubuntu install

[Harry Strongburg]

On Thu, Aug 12, 2010 at 09:34:24PM -0400, Scott Kitterman wrote:
> It's not in the default install.  Look at the output of aptitude why 
> apache2-mpm-prefork to see what pulled it in.

So it just happened to have been auto-installed on all the boxes I upgraded 
from 9.10 to 10.04? That's weird.

How do I find out why it was installed?

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Re: Apache2 in default Ubuntu install

[Scott Kitterman]

"Harry Strongburg"  wrote:

>Why is apache2 in the default Ubuntu install?
>
>I upgraded from 9.10 to 10.04 LTS today, and the upgrade procedure installed 
>Apache2 onto my box, even though I have had it autoremoved for a long time.
>It also did this on another server I upgraded, and that server runs lighttpd 
>too!
>
>>Selecting previously deselected package apache2.2-bin.
>>Unpacking apache2.2-bin (from .../apache2.2-bin_2.2.14-5ubuntu8_i386.deb) ...
>>Selecting previously deselected package apache2-utils.
>>Unpacking apache2-utils (from .../apache2-utils_2.2.14-5ubuntu8_i386.deb) ...
>>Selecting previously deselected package apache2.2-common.
>>Unpacking apache2.2-common (from 
>>.../apache2.2-common_2.2.14-5ubuntu8_i386.deb) ...
>>Selecting previously deselected package apache2-mpm-prefork.
>>Unpacking apache2-mpm-prefork (from 
>>.../apache2-mpm-prefork_2.2.14-5ubuntu8_i386.deb) ...
>
>Why do you do this, Ubuntu developers? Apache2 isn't required for an Ubuntu 
>install, and heck, it SHOULDN'T be in a default install. If a user wants to 
>run a httpd, they can install it themselves.
>
It's not in the default install.  Look at the output of aptitude why 
apache2-mpm-prefork to see what pulled it in.

Scott K

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Re: Apache2 in default Ubuntu install

[Krenar Qehaja]

On Fri, Aug 13, 2010 at 2:07 AM, Harry Strongburg wrote:

> Why is apache2 in the default Ubuntu install?
>

It is not AFAIK.

I upgraded from 9.10 to 10.04 LTS today, and the upgrade procedure installed
> Apache2 onto my box, even though I have had it autoremoved for a long time.
>

You might have had the apache2 metapackage installed.

Cheers,
Krenar Qehaja
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