RE: Feature suggestions: optionally placing home folder into separate partition during ubuntu install
Hello Evan, Thank you for your comments and clarifications. It's interesting to know that Ubuntu already takes care during a reinstall of the home folder as well as user settings, when these already exist on the partition. Thinking about the motivation I had to move the home folder to a separate partition, I see that there could be several reasons why having the home folder on a separate partition might still be useful. 1. data safety -- in case the user by mistake formats the main partition during the installation process. 2. simplicity of reformatting -- in case the use wants to reformat the main partition while keeping the user partition intact. 3. simplicity of hard disk exchange -- in case the home folder resides on a separate hard disk, 4. I think there is also a psychological factor here. Currently, the user needs to trust the Ubuntu reinstall process, that it doesn't touch the user data and settings, with the data tucked away on a separate partition, it is easier to trust Ubuntu that the data wouldn't be touched. 5. install of other Linux instead or in addition to Ubuntu could benefit from having a home folder either shared or untouched. Will let you know if I can figure out some more motivations :-) Re: Preserving packages after reinstall You are right. Thinking about it again, I wanted to clean up my installation, and also thought it might improve performance. Perhaps a reinstall could offer a list of already installed packages, and the user can select the subset of packages he/she wants to again include. Thank you, Daniel -Original Message- From: ubuntu-devel-discuss-boun...@lists.ubuntu.com [mailto:ubuntu-devel-discuss-boun...@lists.ubuntu.com] On Behalf Of Evan Huus Sent: Thursday, October 28, 2010 4:23 AM To: ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Subject: Re: Feature suggestions: optionally placing home folder into separate partition during ubuntu install On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 8:01 PM, Daniel Gross daniel.gr...@utoronto.ca wrote: Hello, I have finally taken the plunge and installed the latest Ubuntu instead of Windows XP (while still running Windows xp in a VM). Congrats :) It would be great if a tool existed that supports moving the home folder from the boot partition to a data partition. Ideally, the tool would support creating a data partition by resizing the boot partition, as well as recommending a minimum size for the data partition based on the size of the home folder. Ideally, i think, such a setup could already be suggested during the Ubuntu installation process. Perhaps, under an advanced setup heading -- removing the need to move the home partition. The main benefit for such a setup, is that it allows reinstalling Ubuntu without loosing the users data, which would be safely sitting in a separate data partition. Putting it on a separate partition isn't actually necessary. Currently when Ubuntu is directed to install to a partition which previously had Ubuntu on it, it reinstalls only what is necessary, leaving things such as user settings intact. So this is effectively already done, just without the necessity for multiple partitions. Also, during (re)installation, Ubuntu could recognize the existence of a data partition that includes a home folder, and suggest configuring itself accordingly. This is an interesting idea. I'm not sure what we currently suggest when another Ubuntu is already installed, but a kind of reinstall/upgrade option would probably be useful. Again, we'd only need the one partition for it though. Taking this idea a step further, perhaps its possible to also preserve the packages that were installed, so that these remain intact in the data partition also. Perhaps a better name for the data partition could be User partition, which includes all user configured, tailored, created data. As opposed to the System partition which includes the base OS only, and that can be reinstalled at will. Technically, every part of Ubuntu (including the base OS) is considered just an installed package, so doing this wouldn't be simple. I'm also having trouble seeing the use case for this - most people (in my experience) reinstall Ubuntu as a way to clean up cruft (or apparent cruft - a fresh install often feels faster just by placebo effect). Presumably they would want such packages removed, else why would they reinstall? They're may be something I'm missing, but I can't see reinstalling while keeping current packages to be a common desire. You've raised some very interesting points, all of which merit further discussion. Enjoy your shiny new Ubuntu :) Cheers, Evan -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Feature suggestions: optionally placing home folder into separate partition during ubuntu install
Phillip Susi schreef op zo 26-12-2010 om 10:55 [-0500]: This is what manual partitioning is for. Also /home can not be on NTFS since it does not support ownership and permissions. Actually, NTFS does support ownership permissions, but it's somewhat complicated to configure/use it like that. -- Jan Claeys -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Feature suggestions: optionally placing home folder into separate partition during ubuntu install
On 1/7/2011 12:46 PM, Jan Claeys wrote: Actually, NTFS does support ownership permissions, but it's somewhat complicated to configure/use it like that. MS reserved space to hold a posix uid/gid and mode so they can run an NFS server, but it is not supported by the Linux driver. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Feature suggestions: optionally placing home folder into separate partition during ubuntu install
Phillip Susi schreef op vr 07-01-2011 om 15:30 [-0500]: On 1/7/2011 12:46 PM, Jan Claeys wrote: Actually, NTFS does support ownership permissions, but it's somewhat complicated to configure/use it like that. MS reserved space to hold a posix uid/gid and mode so they can run an NFS server, but it is not supported by the Linux driver. Since some time ntfs-3g supports mapping between Windows and POSIX users and permissions though: http://www.tuxera.com/ntfs/release-ntfs-3g-2009-11-14/ -- Jan Claeys -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Feature suggestions: optionally placing home folder into separate partition during ubuntu install
On 01/07/2011 09:38 PM, Jan Claeys wrote: Since some time ntfs-3g supports mapping between Windows and POSIX users and permissions though: http://www.tuxera.com/ntfs/release-ntfs-3g-2009-11-14/ Oh, neat. If you set up these mapping tables, then maybe you COULD use NTFS for /home or even /. I wonder if anyone has tried to do that? -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Feature suggestions: optionally placing home folder into separate partition during ubuntu install
On Tue, Dec 28, 2010 at 6:38 PM, Daniel Gross daniel.gr...@utoronto.cawrote: Hello Phill, I think you can compare the benefit of having user folder on a separate partition to users having a backup. Most of the time a user does not need the backup. But when the unforeseen event occurs that requires a restore, then those users who have a backup will clearly benefit. Similarly, those users who loose access to the boot partition (such as due to a hard disk crash) will clearly benefit from having the data on a separate partition. At last in my case i could have restored a working system much more easily without data loss. In the future when bandwidth will increase and off site backup of all data stored on a, say, 300 GB hard drive become common, then i guess a separate data partition will lose its necessity. thanks, Daniel Daniel, having a separate partition for /home does not not improve data protection in any way, it does not provide backups and the data access is not isolated. Your case would not be better with a different partition, whatever caused you the ext4 corruption could happen to your home partition as well, or both. For disaster situations like yours (unrecoverable file system corruption) a proper solution is to have backups. -- João Luís Marques Pinto GetDeb Team Leader http://www.getdeb.net http://blog.getdeb.net -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Feature suggestions: optionally placing home folder into separate partition during ubuntu install
Hi, I've read the article on Theregister and I did not like how he made his point, it's journalism. Any way for the separate partition thing there is some points. 1. Where is you D drive? 2. What if the user wanted to change the OS? 3. Which get broken more often, file-system or Hard-drive? 4. What about block size? For 1, People who works in PC maintenance know that most users prefer to have two partitions at least. Users (by experience*) know that in case of troubles C could be erased with D untouched. So they already put valuable things on D. Home partition is similar to D. For 2, What if a user wanted to change her system to Distro X or Z or even some proprietary OS? how much troubles she will have if she just wanted to keep her data untouched? Would the other systems detect her home folder and put it in a safe place while they are being installed? or does she have to buy a 500G external Hard disk* while she has a plenty of free space and healthy hard disk? For 3, I think it's better to have two separate file systems for the obvious reason of which get corrupted more often. For 4, Last time I checked I remember that a bigger partition means bigger block size and more wasted space. small benefit maybe but an advantage. Sure there is workaround for almost every point here but Ubuntu usually make things more simple and direct. -- * though an external hard disk is a good choice for backup Usama Akkad On Wed, 2010-12-29 at 22:23 +, Joao Pinto wrote: On Tue, Dec 28, 2010 at 6:38 PM, Daniel Gross daniel.gr...@utoronto.ca wrote: Hello Phill, I think you can compare the benefit of having user folder on a separate partition to users having a backup. Most of the time a user does not need the backup. But when the unforeseen event occurs that requires a restore, then those users who have a backup will clearly benefit. Similarly, those users who loose access to the boot partition (such as due to a hard disk crash) will clearly benefit from having the data on a separate partition. At last in my case i could have restored a working system much more easily without data loss. In the future when bandwidth will increase and off site backup of all data stored on a, say, 300 GB hard drive become common, then i guess a separate data partition will lose its necessity. thanks, Daniel Daniel, having a separate partition for /home does not not improve data protection in any way, it does not provide backups and the data access is not isolated. Your case would not be better with a different partition, whatever caused you the ext4 corruption could happen to your home partition as well, or both. For disaster situations like yours (unrecoverable file system corruption) a proper solution is to have backups. -- João Luís Marques Pinto GetDeb Team Leader http://www.getdeb.net http://blog.getdeb.net -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Feature suggestions: optionally placing home folder into separate partition during ubuntu install
Hello João, Thank you for your response. I agree with you that ultimately having proper backup is THE solution for data loss. At the same time there are many factors that mitigate data loss. Keep in mind that data loss is a probabilistic event, and you want to increase the odds in your favor. For example, the ext4 file system format is newer than ext3. Having the boot partition run on ext4 while keeping the data partition on ext3 may for example increase the odds that data on the ext3 partition is more recoverable than on an ext4 partition. Having home on a separate partition thus allows you to vary file system formats to meet such needs. Also, the problem that i had was related to physical sectors becoming unavailable on the boot partition, which corrupted data in such a way that the partition became inaccessible. A second partition on the same physical hard disk continued to work error-free. If i had my home partition on the second partition i could have mounted it without error using a live CD. So, what i am saying is, data loss can be mitigated by certain kinds of setups, and thats, essentially, what we all try to do. Ideally, as i said, is having all off-site managed professionally at a data center where data is backed up in such a way that the odds are very much in your favor (but even there data can still be lost when very unusual events occur). thanks, Daniel On Wed, 2010-12-29 at 22:23 +, Joao Pinto wrote: On Tue, Dec 28, 2010 at 6:38 PM, Daniel Gross daniel.gr...@utoronto.ca wrote: Hello Phill, I think you can compare the benefit of having user folder on a separate partition to users having a backup. Most of the time a user does not need the backup. But when the unforeseen event occurs that requires a restore, then those users who have a backup will clearly benefit. Similarly, those users who loose access to the boot partition (such as due to a hard disk crash) will clearly benefit from having the data on a separate partition. At last in my case i could have restored a working system much more easily without data loss. In the future when bandwidth will increase and off site backup of all data stored on a, say, 300 GB hard drive become common, then i guess a separate data partition will lose its necessity. thanks, Daniel Daniel, having a separate partition for /home does not not improve data protection in any way, it does not provide backups and the data access is not isolated. Your case would not be better with a different partition, whatever caused you the ext4 corruption could happen to your home partition as well, or both. For disaster situations like yours (unrecoverable file system corruption) a proper solution is to have backups. -- João Luís Marques Pinto GetDeb Team Leader http://www.getdeb.net http://blog.getdeb.net -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Feature suggestions: optionally placing home folder into separate partition during ubuntu install
Hiyas Daniel, I'd also like to see the simple ability to make (and recommend) a /home partion rather than ask a n00b to delve into the tender mercies of manual partitioning. Hopefully, one day the dev team may catch their breath and incorporate it. :) Regards, Phill. On 26 December 2010 13:20, Daniel Gross daniel.gr...@utoronto.ca wrote: Hello I just had a really bad experience while working with Ubuntu 10.10, which suggested to me another reason for having a separate home folder. My ext4 boot partition with all my data became inaccessible -- not mountable, not checkable, only accessible via dd or ddrescue, but the data coming out is very partial (the image i am getting claims to be of type ext2, for some reason, so can't be checked either). I had just started a new virtual machine, and then the hard drive started spinning at full speed, with the computer not responding. After a while I felt that the only way out is a hard reset. Unfortunately, either the spinning out of control, or the hard reset, or both, have damaged the ext4 partition in a significant way. Interestingly, a second NTFS partition (with my preinstalled windows xp pro on it) wasn't affected, and i was able to boot windows xp without problems, but not able to access the ext4 partition, also not with a special ext4 file system utility. After much trial and error i still can not properly access the ext4 partition, getting a drive exclusively in use by other process or mounted error?. I happened to have another 320 SATA drive around, which i am not freshly installing with ubuntu 10.10. To avoid such problems with the boot partition in the future, I decided to the the following partitioning scheme. Ubuntu Boot partition -- 40 GB, ext4 Primary NTFS partition of size 220 GB, mounted at /windows Primary NTFS partition of size 60 GB, not mounted. My plan is to move my home directory to the 220GB partition. Like this if the ubuntu ext4 boot partition fails again, i will hopefully be able to access all my data from both windows and ubuntu rescue facilities. So, the reason to move the home directory to a different partition (and file system type), relates to not putting all your files in one ext4 boot partition basket. Daniel On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 8:01 PM, Daniel Gross daniel.gross at utoronto.ca https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss wrote: * Hello, ** ** I have finally taken the plunge and installed the latest Ubuntu instead ** of Windows XP (while still running Windows xp in a VM). * Congrats :) * It would be great if a tool existed that supports moving the home folder ** from the boot partition to a data partition. Ideally, the tool would ** support creating a data partition by resizing the boot partition, as ** well as recommending a minimum size for the data partition based on the ** size of the home folder. ** ** Ideally, i think, such a setup could already be suggested during the ** Ubuntu installation process. Perhaps, under an advanced setup heading ** -- removing the need to move the home partition. ** ** The main benefit for such a setup, is that it allows reinstalling Ubuntu ** without loosing the users data, which would be safely sitting in a ** separate data partition. * Putting it on a separate partition isn't actually necessary. Currently when Ubuntu is directed to install to a partition which previously had Ubuntu on it, it reinstalls only what is necessary, leaving things such as user settings intact. So this is effectively already done, just without the necessity for multiple partitions. * Also, during (re)installation, Ubuntu could recognize the existence of a ** data partition that includes a home folder, and suggest configuring ** itself accordingly. * This is an interesting idea. I'm not sure what we currently suggest when another Ubuntu is already installed, but a kind of reinstall/upgrade option would probably be useful. Again, we'd only need the one partition for it though. * Taking this idea a step further, perhaps its possible to also preserve ** the packages that were installed, so that these remain intact in the ** data partition also. Perhaps a better name for the data partition could ** be User partition, which includes all user configured, tailored, ** created data. As opposed to the System partition which includes the base ** OS only, and that can be reinstalled at will. * Technically, every part of Ubuntu (including the base OS) is considered just an installed package, so doing this wouldn't be simple. I'm also having trouble seeing the use case for this - most people (in my experience) reinstall Ubuntu as a way to clean up cruft (or apparent cruft - a fresh install often feels faster just by placebo effect). Presumably they would want such packages removed, else why would they reinstall? They're may be something I'm missing, but I can't see reinstalling
Re: Feature suggestions: optionally placing home folder into separate partition during ubuntu install
On 26 December 2010 10:55, Phillip Susi ps...@cfl.rr.com wrote: This is what manual partitioning is for. Also /home can not be on NTFS since it does not support ownership and permissions. Well, yes and no: manual partitioning is for advanced users who know what they are doing. The fact that it's the only way you can install Ubuntu with a separate /home partition isn't easy for the average user, who doesn't know what the benefits of a separate /home are in the first place. What would help is a simple option such as Install Ubuntu on the whole disk using separate partitions for user and operating system files, which would choose sensible defaults for /, swap and /home and create the partitions accordingly. A look at other distros that already do that could help as highlighted in this review from The Register: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2010/10/11/ubuntu_10_10_review/ Bruno -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Feature suggestions: optionally placing home folder into separate partition during ubuntu install
On Tue, Dec 28, 2010 at 3:07 PM, Evan Huus eapa...@gmail.com wrote: This is an important point. The 'average' user isn't going to be able to take advantage of a separate home partition, even if the installer does it automatically for them. Reinstalling while preserving user data is already possible with a single / partition, and more complicated recovery operations (such as the one which started this thread) are not going to occur to someone who doesn't know enough to manually partition in the first place. Admittedly, the installer could make it easier for power-users to divide up their partitions without specifying every detail manually, but I don't think it would provide any functional benefit, just usability benefit. Evan And let's not forget that for those who don't need/understand what is a separate home partition, choosing to do so is likely to become a problem in the future when the partition sizing is found to be incorrect/insufficient. IMHO for 'regular' users the ability to reinstall without wiping the /home surpasses most of the benefits of using an isolated partition. -- João Luís Marques Pinto GetDeb Team Leader http://www.getdeb.net http://blog.getdeb.net -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Feature suggestions: optionally placing home folder into separate partition during ubuntu install
Hi Joao, the same would apply to the option of encrypting their home area, which is on the install CD and causes no end of grief on support. They get the option of that, but not a seperate /home partition? Bearing in mind we are dealing mostly with Windows users, is the encryption part really needed as a default question - or only available in advanced? Regards, Phill. On 28 December 2010 15:54, Joao Pinto joao.pi...@getdeb.net wrote: On Tue, Dec 28, 2010 at 3:07 PM, Evan Huus eapa...@gmail.com wrote: This is an important point. The 'average' user isn't going to be able to take advantage of a separate home partition, even if the installer does it automatically for them. Reinstalling while preserving user data is already possible with a single / partition, and more complicated recovery operations (such as the one which started this thread) are not going to occur to someone who doesn't know enough to manually partition in the first place. Admittedly, the installer could make it easier for power-users to divide up their partitions without specifying every detail manually, but I don't think it would provide any functional benefit, just usability benefit. Evan And let's not forget that for those who don't need/understand what is a separate home partition, choosing to do so is likely to become a problem in the future when the partition sizing is found to be incorrect/insufficient. IMHO for 'regular' users the ability to reinstall without wiping the /home surpasses most of the benefits of using an isolated partition. -- João Luís Marques Pinto GetDeb Team Leader http://www.getdeb.net http://blog.getdeb.net -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss -- https://wiki.ubuntu.com/phillw -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Feature suggestions: optionally placing home folder into separate partition during ubuntu install
On Tue, Dec 28, 2010 at 4:23 PM, Phill Whiteside phi...@ubuntu.com wrote: Hi Joao, the same would apply to the option of encrypting their home area, which is on the install CD and causes no end of grief on support. They get the option of that, but not a seperate /home partition? Bearing in mind we are dealing mostly with Windows users, is the encryption part really needed as a default question - or only available in advanced? Regards, Phill. Hi Phill, I don't have data to support this, but a significant part of today's devices are mobile devices. I truly believe that the risk of keeping unencrypted data on a mobile device is so high that encryption more than an option should be a default. Encryption provides a clear and unarguable benefit for most users. I am not sure to which support problems are you referring to, unless you are doing low level file management (advanced user), home encryption is transparent. I am sorry but I am unable to identify any clear benefit for most users to keep the data on a different partition. -- João Luís Marques Pinto GetDeb Team Leader http://www.getdeb.net http://blog.getdeb.net -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Feature suggestions: optionally placing home folder into separate partition during ubuntu install
Hello Phill, I think you can compare the benefit of having user folder on a separate partition to users having a backup. Most of the time a user does not need the backup. But when the unforeseen event occurs that requires a restore, then those users who have a backup will clearly benefit. Similarly, those users who loose access to the boot partition (such as due to a hard disk crash) will clearly benefit from having the data on a separate partition. At last in my case i could have restored a working system much more easily without data loss. In the future when bandwidth will increase and off site backup of all data stored on a, say, 300 GB hard drive become common, then i guess a separate data partition will lose its necessity. thanks, Daniel On Tue, 2010-12-28 at 18:11 +, Joao Pinto wrote: On Tue, Dec 28, 2010 at 4:23 PM, Phill Whiteside phi...@ubuntu.com wrote: Hi Joao, the same would apply to the option of encrypting their home area, which is on the install CD and causes no end of grief on support. They get the option of that, but not a seperate /home partition? Bearing in mind we are dealing mostly with Windows users, is the encryption part really needed as a default question - or only available in advanced? Regards, Phill. Hi Phill, I don't have data to support this, but a significant part of today's devices are mobile devices. I truly believe that the risk of keeping unencrypted data on a mobile device is so high that encryption more than an option should be a default. Encryption provides a clear and unarguable benefit for most users. I am not sure to which support problems are you referring to, unless you are doing low level file management (advanced user), home encryption is transparent. I am sorry but I am unable to identify any clear benefit for most users to keep the data on a different partition. -- João Luís Marques Pinto GetDeb Team Leader http://www.getdeb.net http://blog.getdeb.net -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Feature suggestions: optionally placing home folder into separate partition during ubuntu install
This is what manual partitioning is for. Also /home can not be on NTFS since it does not support ownership and permissions. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Feature suggestions: optionally placing home folder into separate partition during ubuntu install
Hi, I think the Idea is great. Ubuntu already create a separate partition for swap. in case of troubles it's much easier to recover your data. On Sun, Dec 26, 2010 at 6:55 PM, Phillip Susi ps...@cfl.rr.com wrote: This is what manual partitioning is for. Also /home can not be on NTFS since it does not support ownership and permissions. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Feature suggestions: optionally placing home folder into separate partition during ubuntu install
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Daniel Hollocher wrote on 05/11/10 15:20: That is a common misconception. Reinstalling Ubuntu on the same partition doesn't lose the user's data either. A problem that is both real and more interesting, is working out why so many people have that misconception, and how we can correct it. ... I imagine you would have to make it part of the gui of whatever installer supports it if you wanted more people to use the feature. Otherwise, it is a bit too complicated to communicate to people. ... That's a good point. Up till now, to get this effect, you had to use the advanced partitioning step, choose to use the existing root partition, but choose not to format it. That was pretty obscure. Today Evan Dandrea, the installer maintainer, has been working on making in-place reinstallation one of the basic installation options. - -- Matthew Paul Thomas http://mpt.net.nz/ -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.10 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAkzbFQYACgkQ6PUxNfU6ecrGeACfZojcSBSPTlQg3PoV3tnIff9X kiwAn1+MuCD93MGX5ytiozkVzuq/h32i =vM74 -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Feature suggestions: optionally placing home folder into separate partition during ubuntu install
On my former Lenovo notebook windows xp pro installation, Lenovo added a feature called rejuvenate system, which restores windows xp to a baseline installation (the first backup snapshot of the system taken), while keeping all data files intact --presumably whatever is stored in My documents. Is this the kind of feature you mean with in place re-installation? thanks, Daniel On Wed, 2010-11-10 at 21:56 +, Matthew Paul Thomas wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Daniel Hollocher wrote on 05/11/10 15:20: That is a common misconception. Reinstalling Ubuntu on the same partition doesn't lose the user's data either. A problem that is both real and more interesting, is working out why so many people have that misconception, and how we can correct it. ... I imagine you would have to make it part of the gui of whatever installer supports it if you wanted more people to use the feature. Otherwise, it is a bit too complicated to communicate to people. ... That's a good point. Up till now, to get this effect, you had to use the advanced partitioning step, choose to use the existing root partition, but choose not to format it. That was pretty obscure. Today Evan Dandrea, the installer maintainer, has been working on making in-place reinstallation one of the basic installation options. - -- Matthew Paul Thomas http://mpt.net.nz/ -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.10 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAkzbFQYACgkQ6PUxNfU6ecrGeACfZojcSBSPTlQg3PoV3tnIff9X kiwAn1+MuCD93MGX5ytiozkVzuq/h32i =vM74 -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Feature suggestions: optionally placing home folder into separate partition during ubuntu install
On Sun, Nov 7, 2010 at 1:36 AM, Daniel Gross daniel.gr...@utoronto.ca wrote: Hello Matthew, I wonder whether the definition of user data is well understood. Does it include all configuration data of installed packages? Does it include data stored in non-standard locations? What about user data stored by different applications? Do all applications behave and place their data in hidden home folders? I guess what i am getting at is that a commitment to preserve user data needs a clear and visible definition what is and what is not included, and thus reasonably preserved. There's a freedesktop standard for that: http://standards.freedesktop.org/basedir-spec/latest/index.html I'm not sure if it's exactly what you're looking for, since it also covers things like the location of cache files and such, but I'm sure it could be adapted (or just a subset of it taken) for this purpose. Cheers, Evan thanks, Daniel On Thu, 2010-11-04 at 16:24 +, Matthew Paul Thomas wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Daniel Gross wrote on 28/10/10 01:01: ... It would be great if a tool existed that supports moving the home folder from the boot partition to a data partition. Ideally, the tool would support creating a data partition by resizing the boot partition, as well as recommending a minimum size for the data partition based on the size of the home folder. Ideally, i think, such a setup could already be suggested during the Ubuntu installation process. Perhaps, under an advanced setup heading -- removing the need to move the home partition. The main benefit for such a setup, is that it allows reinstalling Ubuntu without loosing the users data, which would be safely sitting in a separate data partition. ... That is a common misconception. Reinstalling Ubuntu on the same partition doesn't lose the user's data either. A problem that is both real and more interesting, is working out why so many people have that misconception, and how we can correct it. - -- Matthew Paul Thomas http://mpt.net.nz/ -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.10 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAkzS3lEACgkQ6PUxNfU6ecoFyQCgi293WgfunRFjLNEumIqEFvZE 8fMAn29Q09tBn+onl0ni3/fgtHQp4XG+ =InlV -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Feature suggestions: optionally placing home folder into separate partition during ubuntu install
On Thu, 2010-11-04 at 16:24 +, Matthew Paul Thomas wrote: A problem that is both real and more interesting, is working out why so many people have that misconception, and how we can correct it. Add to ubiquity the information when it sees an existing ubuntu installation. Right now the warning goes something like Existing install detected! So we're going to delete a whole bunch of stuff before we continue and isn't exactly reassuring that it's not going to delete your home folder. Martin, -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Feature suggestions: optionally placing home folder into separate partition during ubuntu install
Hello Matthew, I wonder whether the definition of user data is well understood. Does it include all configuration data of installed packages? Does it include data stored in non-standard locations? What about user data stored by different applications? Do all applications behave and place their data in hidden home folders? I guess what i am getting at is that a commitment to preserve user data needs a clear and visible definition what is and what is not included, and thus reasonably preserved. thanks, Daniel On Thu, 2010-11-04 at 16:24 +, Matthew Paul Thomas wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Daniel Gross wrote on 28/10/10 01:01: ... It would be great if a tool existed that supports moving the home folder from the boot partition to a data partition. Ideally, the tool would support creating a data partition by resizing the boot partition, as well as recommending a minimum size for the data partition based on the size of the home folder. Ideally, i think, such a setup could already be suggested during the Ubuntu installation process. Perhaps, under an advanced setup heading -- removing the need to move the home partition. The main benefit for such a setup, is that it allows reinstalling Ubuntu without loosing the users data, which would be safely sitting in a separate data partition. ... That is a common misconception. Reinstalling Ubuntu on the same partition doesn't lose the user's data either. A problem that is both real and more interesting, is working out why so many people have that misconception, and how we can correct it. - -- Matthew Paul Thomas http://mpt.net.nz/ -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.10 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAkzS3lEACgkQ6PUxNfU6ecoFyQCgi293WgfunRFjLNEumIqEFvZE 8fMAn29Q09tBn+onl0ni3/fgtHQp4XG+ =InlV -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Feature suggestions: optionally placing home folder into separate partition during ubuntu install
That is a common misconception. Reinstalling Ubuntu on the same partition doesn't lose the user's data either. A problem that is both real and more interesting, is working out why so many people have that misconception, and how we can correct it. Is this really a misconception? I thought there was a point in time that you did need to have a separate /home for what we are talking about. You needed a separate home for that until Hardy, if memory servers. So it's not an ancient feature, but it's not exactly new at this point either. Also, do you know how widespread the policy is? ie, is it Ubuntu only, debian based distros, or all of linux? I have no idea. I imagine it's part of Ubiquity, not debian-installer, which would make it Ubuntu-specific. I imagine you would have to make it part of the gui of whatever installer supports it if you wanted more people to use the feature. Otherwise, it is a bit too complicated to communicate to people. You can't really expect people to follow every precise direction you give them, and in this case if they don't, they could loose their data. Maybe you could put a button that offers to reuse an existing partition layout, clean installing but saving use data. The button could go next to the install side by side and use entire disk options and maybe scan fstab for the partition layout. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Feature suggestions: optionally placing home folder into separate partition during ubuntu install
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Daniel Gross wrote on 28/10/10 01:01: ... It would be great if a tool existed that supports moving the home folder from the boot partition to a data partition. Ideally, the tool would support creating a data partition by resizing the boot partition, as well as recommending a minimum size for the data partition based on the size of the home folder. Ideally, i think, such a setup could already be suggested during the Ubuntu installation process. Perhaps, under an advanced setup heading -- removing the need to move the home partition. The main benefit for such a setup, is that it allows reinstalling Ubuntu without loosing the users data, which would be safely sitting in a separate data partition. ... That is a common misconception. Reinstalling Ubuntu on the same partition doesn't lose the user's data either. A problem that is both real and more interesting, is working out why so many people have that misconception, and how we can correct it. - -- Matthew Paul Thomas http://mpt.net.nz/ -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.10 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAkzS3lEACgkQ6PUxNfU6ecoFyQCgi293WgfunRFjLNEumIqEFvZE 8fMAn29Q09tBn+onl0ni3/fgtHQp4XG+ =InlV -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Feature suggestions: optionally placing home folder into separate partition during ubuntu install
You're right, I had no idea that feature existed. Why doesn't it just reinstall when you go to upgrade? On Thu, Nov 4, 2010 at 11:24 AM, Matthew Paul Thomas m...@canonical.comwrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Daniel Gross wrote on 28/10/10 01:01: ... It would be great if a tool existed that supports moving the home folder from the boot partition to a data partition. Ideally, the tool would support creating a data partition by resizing the boot partition, as well as recommending a minimum size for the data partition based on the size of the home folder. Ideally, i think, such a setup could already be suggested during the Ubuntu installation process. Perhaps, under an advanced setup heading -- removing the need to move the home partition. The main benefit for such a setup, is that it allows reinstalling Ubuntu without loosing the users data, which would be safely sitting in a separate data partition. ... That is a common misconception. Reinstalling Ubuntu on the same partition doesn't lose the user's data either. A problem that is both real and more interesting, is working out why so many people have that misconception, and how we can correct it. - -- Matthew Paul Thomas http://mpt.net.nz/ -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.10 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAkzS3lEACgkQ6PUxNfU6ecoFyQCgi293WgfunRFjLNEumIqEFvZE 8fMAn29Q09tBn+onl0ni3/fgtHQp4XG+ =InlV -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Feature suggestions: optionally placing home folder into separate partition during ubuntu install
That is a common misconception. Reinstalling Ubuntu on the same partition doesn't lose the user's data either. A problem that is both real and more interesting, is working out why so many people have that misconception, and how we can correct it. Is this really a misconception? I thought there was a point in time that you did need to have a separate /home for what we are talking about. Also, do you know how widespread the policy is? ie, is it Ubuntu only, debian based distros, or all of linux? -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Feature suggestions: optionally placing home folder into separate partition during ubuntu install
On Thu, Nov 4, 2010 at 2:27 PM, Daniel Hollocher danielholloc...@gmail.com wrote: That is a common misconception. Reinstalling Ubuntu on the same partition doesn't lose the user's data either. A problem that is both real and more interesting, is working out why so many people have that misconception, and how we can correct it. Is this really a misconception? I thought there was a point in time that you did need to have a separate /home for what we are talking about. You needed a separate home for that until Hardy, if memory servers. So it's not an ancient feature, but it's not exactly new at this point either. Also, do you know how widespread the policy is? ie, is it Ubuntu only, debian based distros, or all of linux? I have no idea. I imagine it's part of Ubiquity, not debian-installer, which would make it Ubuntu-specific. Cheers, Evan -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Feature suggestions: optionally placing home folder into separate partition during ubuntu install
On Thu, 2010-11-04 at 16:24 +, Matthew Paul Thomas wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Daniel Gross wrote on 28/10/10 01:01: ... It would be great if a tool existed that supports moving the home folder from the boot partition to a data partition. Ideally, the tool would support creating a data partition by resizing the boot partition, as well as recommending a minimum size for the data partition based on the size of the home folder. Ideally, i think, such a setup could already be suggested during the Ubuntu installation process. Perhaps, under an advanced setup heading -- removing the need to move the home partition. The main benefit for such a setup, is that it allows reinstalling Ubuntu without loosing the users data, which would be safely sitting in a separate data partition. ... That is a common misconception. Reinstalling Ubuntu on the same partition doesn't lose the user's data either. It sure is if I choose to format the partition -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Feature suggestions: optionally placing home folder into separate partition during ubuntu install
On Thu, Nov 04, 2010 at 01:39:09PM -0700, George Farris wrote: On Thu, 2010-11-04 at 16:24 +, Matthew Paul Thomas wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Daniel Gross wrote on 28/10/10 01:01: ... It would be great if a tool existed that supports moving the home folder from the boot partition to a data partition. Ideally, the tool would support creating a data partition by resizing the boot partition, as well as recommending a minimum size for the data partition based on the size of the home folder. Ideally, i think, such a setup could already be suggested during the Ubuntu installation process. Perhaps, under an advanced setup heading -- removing the need to move the home partition. The main benefit for such a setup, is that it allows reinstalling Ubuntu without loosing the users data, which would be safely sitting in a separate data partition. ... That is a common misconception. Reinstalling Ubuntu on the same partition doesn't lose the user's data either. It sure is if I choose to format the partition As you would if you chose to do a fresh install or to install a different distro. -- Bob Holtzman Key ID: 8D549279 If you think you're getting free lunch, check the price of the beer signature.asc Description: Digital signature -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Feature suggestions: optionally placing home folder into separate partition during ubuntu install
On Thu, 4 Nov 2010 14:45:48 -0700 Robert Holtzman hol...@cox.net wrote: On Thu, Nov 04, 2010 at 01:39:09PM -0700, George Farris wrote: On Thu, 2010-11-04 at 16:24 +, Matthew Paul Thomas wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Daniel Gross wrote on 28/10/10 01:01: ... It would be great if a tool existed that supports moving the home folder from the boot partition to a data partition. Ideally, the tool would support creating a data partition by resizing the boot partition, as well as recommending a minimum size for the data partition based on the size of the home folder. Ideally, i think, such a setup could already be suggested during the Ubuntu installation process. Perhaps, under an advanced setup heading -- removing the need to move the home partition. The main benefit for such a setup, is that it allows reinstalling Ubuntu without loosing the users data, which would be safely sitting in a separate data partition. ... That is a common misconception. Reinstalling Ubuntu on the same partition doesn't lose the user's data either. It sure is if I choose to format the partition As you would if you chose to do a fresh install or to install a different distro. I believe the default now is to not format on a fresh install. You have to actually tell it to do the format, otherwise, it simply erases the /etc and other root partitions and runs the install on top of the installed release. That way /home does not get erased. -- Charlie Kravetz Linux Registered User Number 425914 [http://counter.li.org/] Never let anyone steal your DREAM. [http://keepingdreams.com] signature.asc Description: PGP signature -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Feature suggestions: optionally placing home folder into separate partition during ubuntu install
On Thu, 4 Nov 2010 16:19:54 -0600 Charlie Kravetz c...@teamcharliesangels.com wrote: On Thu, 4 Nov 2010 14:45:48 -0700 Robert Holtzman hol...@cox.net wrote: On Thu, Nov 04, 2010 at 01:39:09PM -0700, George Farris wrote: On Thu, 2010-11-04 at 16:24 +, Matthew Paul Thomas wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Daniel Gross wrote on 28/10/10 01:01: ... It would be great if a tool existed that supports moving the home folder from the boot partition to a data partition. Ideally, the tool would support creating a data partition by resizing the boot partition, as well as recommending a minimum size for the data partition based on the size of the home folder. Ideally, i think, such a setup could already be suggested during the Ubuntu installation process. Perhaps, under an advanced setup heading -- removing the need to move the home partition. The main benefit for such a setup, is that it allows reinstalling Ubuntu without loosing the users data, which would be safely sitting in a separate data partition. ... That is a common misconception. Reinstalling Ubuntu on the same partition doesn't lose the user's data either. It sure is if I choose to format the partition As you would if you chose to do a fresh install or to install a different distro. I believe the default now is to not format on a fresh install. You have to actually tell it to do the format, otherwise, it simply erases the /etc and other root partitions and runs the install on top of the installed release. That way /home does not get erased. Well, bad wording here. it does not erase partitions, but rather, it erases directories. At least, on the installs I tested with Ubuntu and Xubuntu 10.10. -- Charlie Kravetz Linux Registered User Number 425914 [http://counter.li.org/] Never let anyone steal your DREAM. [http://keepingdreams.com] signature.asc Description: PGP signature -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Feature suggestions: optionally placing home folder into separate partition during ubuntu install
On Thu, Nov 04, 2010 at 04:19:54PM -0600, Charlie Kravetz wrote: On Thu, 4 Nov 2010 14:45:48 -0700 Robert Holtzman hol...@cox.net wrote: .snip. As you would if you chose to do a fresh install or to install a different distro. I believe the default now is to not format on a fresh install. You have to actually tell it to do the format, otherwise, it simply erases the /etc and other root partitions and runs the install on top of the installed release. That way /home does not get erased. Is that unique to ubuntu or to debian based distros or to all linux distros? -- Bob Holtzman Key ID: 8D549279 If you think you're getting free lunch, check the price of the beer signature.asc Description: Digital signature -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Feature suggestions: optionally placing home folder into separate partition during ubuntu install
2010/10/28 Aurélien Naldi aurelien.na...@gmail.com Hi, On Thu, Oct 28, 2010 at 4:34 AM, 李白|字一日 calid...@gmail.com wrote: 2010/10/28 Evan Huus eapa...@gmail.com On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 8:01 PM, Daniel Gross daniel.gr...@utoronto.ca wrote: The main benefit for such a setup, is that it allows reinstalling Ubuntu without loosing the users data, which would be safely sitting in a separate data partition. Putting it on a separate partition isn't actually necessary. Currently when Ubuntu is directed to install to a partition which previously had Ubuntu on it, it reinstalls only what is necessary, leaving things such as user settings intact. So this is effectively already done, just without the necessity for multiple partitions. I think it is why another partition is necessary. sometimes users don't know which program causes their problems. they want a clear reinstall except for their home folders. and it is helpful to give a option to remove previous configurations in the home folder. I may be wrong but this feature during the install only keeps the home folder (and other well-known data places?) and removes the rest so it should not leave random extra files or system configuration. yes, and it is safe to keep data even if the system is not possible to recover. Anyway, I have been using a separate home partition for quite a while as it is a nice way to switch between different OSs (including stable and devel ubuntu). It is always possible to do so using the manual partitionner, which is arguably a power-user tool. :) Taking this idea a step further, perhaps its possible to also preserve the packages that were installed, so that these remain intact in the data partition also. Perhaps a better name for the data partition could be User partition, which includes all user configured, tailored, created data. As opposed to the System partition which includes the base OS only, and that can be reinstalled at will. Technically, every part of Ubuntu (including the base OS) is considered just an installed package, so doing this wouldn't be simple. I'm also having trouble seeing the use case for this - most people (in my experience) reinstall Ubuntu as a way to clean up cruft (or apparent cruft - a fresh install often feels faster just by placebo effect). Presumably they would want such packages removed, else why would they reinstall? They're may be something I'm missing, but I can't see reinstalling while keeping current packages to be a common desire. If you want to keep installed packages, you can upgrade instead of installing from scratch (if you don't skip a version or if you go from LTS to LTS, otherwise it may be painful). If you do not fear to fiddle with the command line, some of Debian's package management tools can help to reinstall the same selection of packages on your new system: see dpkg --get/set-selection for a rough approach and debfoster to build a list of packages you want to keep; taking dependancies into account. Of course it only works for packages that are available from apt repositories and is not so user friendly but I guess one could build a GUI based on the same principle. Alternatively, you can keep a list of packages you want and install them from the command-line. making it easier to build such lists and to apply them would make a nice feature for the software-center ;) Best regards. -- Aurélien Naldi -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Feature suggestions: optionally placing home folder into separate partition during ubuntu install
On Thu, 28 Oct 2010 07:33:30 +0200, Aur?lien Naldi aurelien.na...@gmail.com wrote: If you want to keep installed packages, you can upgrade instead of installing from scratch (if you don't skip a version or if you go from LTS to LTS, otherwise it may be painful). I'd like to just raise a paw here: the only reason I got to see the new (and very slick!) installer is because my upgrade went pear-shaped. As far as I can figure, one of the packages that was being upgraded was asking a question about replacing a conf file (or something similar) so the upgrade dialog just hung until I killed it and all the apt/dpkg processes I could find and started again manually. I'm assuming this created some bad juju on my machine because after the upgrade, I would get hard hangs after a few idle hours on the machine. A clean install doesn't exhibit the problem. Unfortunately, this kind of thing has happened to me in the past (the upgrade dialog stalling and when I manage to force things to start again in a console, I see that the first package to be upgraded is asking a question about overwriting a modified conf file). This is just the first time (9.04-9.10-10.04-10.10) where the end result was unusable. If anyone can point me in the right direction, I'd like to log a bug report -- I honestly don't know what package to choose as the victim though. I would also add a me too to the OP. I keep my /home on another partition for all the same common reasons and it would be neat if that were offered as an easier option for newer users -- which would make re-installs when they break the system due to learning slightly less painful, for example. -- -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- The competent programmer is fully aware of the limited size of his own skull. He therefore approaches his task with full humility, and avoids clever tricks like the plague. - Djikstra. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Feature suggestions: optionally placing home folder into separate partition during ubuntu install
On Thu, Oct 28, 2010 at 7:54 AM, Davyd McColl dav...@gmail.com wrote: On Thu, 28 Oct 2010 07:33:30 +0200, Aur?lien Naldi aurelien.na...@gmail.com wrote: If you want to keep installed packages, you can upgrade instead of installing from scratch (if you don't skip a version or if you go from LTS to LTS, otherwise it may be painful). I'd like to just raise a paw here: the only reason I got to see the new (and very slick!) installer is because my upgrade went pear-shaped. As far as I can figure, one of the packages that was being upgraded was asking a question about replacing a conf file (or something similar) so the upgrade dialog just hung until I killed it and all the apt/dpkg processes I could find and started again manually. I'm assuming this created some bad juju on my machine because after the upgrade, I would get hard hangs after a few idle hours on the machine. A clean install doesn't exhibit the problem. Unfortunately, this kind of thing has happened to me in the past (the upgrade dialog stalling and when I manage to force things to start again in a console, I see that the first package to be upgraded is asking a question about overwriting a modified conf file). This is just the first time (9.04-9.10-10.04-10.10) where the end result was unusable. If anyone can point me in the right direction, I'd like to log a bug report -- I honestly don't know what package to choose as the victim though. I'm not 100% sure, but I would imagine you'd file this against update-manager-core. When a package prompts for a conf-file, the gui is supposed to bring up a nice dialog prompt as well, not hang. If it is just hanging, the bug is in the gui, not apt or any actual package-related programs. Of course the window placement for these dialogs has been kind of weird in my experience - it's possible that the dialog was raised, but minimized on some other workspace instead of where you'd expect to see it. Still a bug imho, but I'm not sure which package in that case. Metacity/Compiz? I would also add a me too to the OP. I keep my /home on another partition for all the same common reasons and it would be neat if that were offered as an easier option for newer users -- which would make re-installs when they break the system due to learning slightly less painful, for example. Again, being able to reinstall to a single-partition Ubuntu and keep your /home intact should cover the majority of use cases here. Using a separate home to maintain settings between multiple OSes is very much a power-user thing, and not recommended as it is very dangerous (eg if the version of rhythmbox in Natty upgrades your rhythmdb.xml to a new format, then booting into Maverick after will make rhythmbox unusable). I will add my own +1 to the idea of the automatic partitioner offering to reinstall/upgrade an existing Ubuntu install though. I don't know how easy this would be (or if it already exists in the new Maverick installer?) but it would make using the CD as a recovery disk much simpler for the less technically inclined. Cheers, Evan -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Feature suggestions: optionally placing home folder into separate partition during ubuntu install
+1 2010/10/28 Daniel Gross daniel.gr...@utoronto.ca Hello, I have finally taken the plunge and installed the latest Ubuntu instead of Windows XP (while still running Windows xp in a VM). It would be great if a tool existed that supports moving the home folder from the boot partition to a data partition. Ideally, the tool would support creating a data partition by resizing the boot partition, as well as recommending a minimum size for the data partition based on the size of the home folder. Ideally, i think, such a setup could already be suggested during the Ubuntu installation process. Perhaps, under an advanced setup heading -- removing the need to move the home partition. The main benefit for such a setup, is that it allows reinstalling Ubuntu without loosing the users data, which would be safely sitting in a separate data partition. Also, during (re)installation, Ubuntu could recognize the existence of a data partition that includes a home folder, and suggest configuring itself accordingly. Taking this idea a step further, perhaps its possible to also preserve the packages that were installed, so that these remain intact in the data partition also. Perhaps a better name for the data partition could be User partition, which includes all user configured, tailored, created data. As opposed to the System partition which includes the base OS only, and that can be reinstalled at will. thanks, Daniel -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Feature suggestions: optionally placing home folder into separate partition during ubuntu install
On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 8:01 PM, Daniel Gross daniel.gr...@utoronto.ca wrote: Hello, I have finally taken the plunge and installed the latest Ubuntu instead of Windows XP (while still running Windows xp in a VM). Congrats :) It would be great if a tool existed that supports moving the home folder from the boot partition to a data partition. Ideally, the tool would support creating a data partition by resizing the boot partition, as well as recommending a minimum size for the data partition based on the size of the home folder. Ideally, i think, such a setup could already be suggested during the Ubuntu installation process. Perhaps, under an advanced setup heading -- removing the need to move the home partition. The main benefit for such a setup, is that it allows reinstalling Ubuntu without loosing the users data, which would be safely sitting in a separate data partition. Putting it on a separate partition isn't actually necessary. Currently when Ubuntu is directed to install to a partition which previously had Ubuntu on it, it reinstalls only what is necessary, leaving things such as user settings intact. So this is effectively already done, just without the necessity for multiple partitions. Also, during (re)installation, Ubuntu could recognize the existence of a data partition that includes a home folder, and suggest configuring itself accordingly. This is an interesting idea. I'm not sure what we currently suggest when another Ubuntu is already installed, but a kind of reinstall/upgrade option would probably be useful. Again, we'd only need the one partition for it though. Taking this idea a step further, perhaps its possible to also preserve the packages that were installed, so that these remain intact in the data partition also. Perhaps a better name for the data partition could be User partition, which includes all user configured, tailored, created data. As opposed to the System partition which includes the base OS only, and that can be reinstalled at will. Technically, every part of Ubuntu (including the base OS) is considered just an installed package, so doing this wouldn't be simple. I'm also having trouble seeing the use case for this - most people (in my experience) reinstall Ubuntu as a way to clean up cruft (or apparent cruft - a fresh install often feels faster just by placebo effect). Presumably they would want such packages removed, else why would they reinstall? They're may be something I'm missing, but I can't see reinstalling while keeping current packages to be a common desire. You've raised some very interesting points, all of which merit further discussion. Enjoy your shiny new Ubuntu :) Cheers, Evan -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Feature suggestions: optionally placing home folder into separate partition during ubuntu install
2010/10/28 Evan Huus eapa...@gmail.com On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 8:01 PM, Daniel Gross daniel.gr...@utoronto.ca wrote: Hello, I have finally taken the plunge and installed the latest Ubuntu instead of Windows XP (while still running Windows xp in a VM). Congrats :) It would be great if a tool existed that supports moving the home folder from the boot partition to a data partition. Ideally, the tool would support creating a data partition by resizing the boot partition, as well as recommending a minimum size for the data partition based on the size of the home folder. Ideally, i think, such a setup could already be suggested during the Ubuntu installation process. Perhaps, under an advanced setup heading -- removing the need to move the home partition. The main benefit for such a setup, is that it allows reinstalling Ubuntu without loosing the users data, which would be safely sitting in a separate data partition. Putting it on a separate partition isn't actually necessary. Currently when Ubuntu is directed to install to a partition which previously had Ubuntu on it, it reinstalls only what is necessary, leaving things such as user settings intact. So this is effectively already done, just without the necessity for multiple partitions. I think it is why another partition is necessary. sometimes users don't know which program causes their problems. they want a clear reinstall except for their home folders. and it is helpful to give a option to remove previous configurations in the home folder. Also, during (re)installation, Ubuntu could recognize the existence of a data partition that includes a home folder, and suggest configuring itself accordingly. This is an interesting idea. I'm not sure what we currently suggest when another Ubuntu is already installed, but a kind of reinstall/upgrade option would probably be useful. Again, we'd only need the one partition for it though. Taking this idea a step further, perhaps its possible to also preserve the packages that were installed, so that these remain intact in the data partition also. Perhaps a better name for the data partition could be User partition, which includes all user configured, tailored, created data. As opposed to the System partition which includes the base OS only, and that can be reinstalled at will. Technically, every part of Ubuntu (including the base OS) is considered just an installed package, so doing this wouldn't be simple. I'm also having trouble seeing the use case for this - most people (in my experience) reinstall Ubuntu as a way to clean up cruft (or apparent cruft - a fresh install often feels faster just by placebo effect). Presumably they would want such packages removed, else why would they reinstall? They're may be something I'm missing, but I can't see reinstalling while keeping current packages to be a common desire. You've raised some very interesting points, all of which merit further discussion. Enjoy your shiny new Ubuntu :) Cheers, Evan -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Feature suggestions: optionally placing home folder into separate partition during ubuntu install
Hi, On Thu, Oct 28, 2010 at 4:34 AM, 李白|字一日 calid...@gmail.com wrote: 2010/10/28 Evan Huus eapa...@gmail.com On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 8:01 PM, Daniel Gross daniel.gr...@utoronto.ca wrote: The main benefit for such a setup, is that it allows reinstalling Ubuntu without loosing the users data, which would be safely sitting in a separate data partition. Putting it on a separate partition isn't actually necessary. Currently when Ubuntu is directed to install to a partition which previously had Ubuntu on it, it reinstalls only what is necessary, leaving things such as user settings intact. So this is effectively already done, just without the necessity for multiple partitions. I think it is why another partition is necessary. sometimes users don't know which program causes their problems. they want a clear reinstall except for their home folders. and it is helpful to give a option to remove previous configurations in the home folder. I may be wrong but this feature during the install only keeps the home folder (and other well-known data places?) and removes the rest so it should not leave random extra files or system configuration. Anyway, I have been using a separate home partition for quite a while as it is a nice way to switch between different OSs (including stable and devel ubuntu). It is always possible to do so using the manual partitionner, which is arguably a power-user tool. Taking this idea a step further, perhaps its possible to also preserve the packages that were installed, so that these remain intact in the data partition also. Perhaps a better name for the data partition could be User partition, which includes all user configured, tailored, created data. As opposed to the System partition which includes the base OS only, and that can be reinstalled at will. Technically, every part of Ubuntu (including the base OS) is considered just an installed package, so doing this wouldn't be simple. I'm also having trouble seeing the use case for this - most people (in my experience) reinstall Ubuntu as a way to clean up cruft (or apparent cruft - a fresh install often feels faster just by placebo effect). Presumably they would want such packages removed, else why would they reinstall? They're may be something I'm missing, but I can't see reinstalling while keeping current packages to be a common desire. If you want to keep installed packages, you can upgrade instead of installing from scratch (if you don't skip a version or if you go from LTS to LTS, otherwise it may be painful). If you do not fear to fiddle with the command line, some of Debian's package management tools can help to reinstall the same selection of packages on your new system: see dpkg --get/set-selection for a rough approach and debfoster to build a list of packages you want to keep; taking dependancies into account. Of course it only works for packages that are available from apt repositories and is not so user friendly but I guess one could build a GUI based on the same principle. Alternatively, you can keep a list of packages you want and install them from the command-line. making it easier to build such lists and to apply them would make a nice feature for the software-center ;) Best regards. -- Aurélien Naldi -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
