Re: LibreOffice Install and Use Problems
Oliver Grawert schreef op 28-09-2016 13:29: beyond this how do you know the bug is not caused by a (possibly) patched libboost, a gtk patch mint applies, held back upgrades or some weird filesystem mangling the mint installer does ... there are millions of possibilities you can not take into account without deeply knowing what mint does. it doesnt matter if it is a packaging problem or not as long as there is a possibility of something non-standard in the system causing it. if the mint support can nail it down with evidence to be an ubuntu problem, then yes, there is no issue at all with filing it on launchpad. Intuition ;-). Any root-owned-based-issues are not going to be related to libraries or GTK-issues. I cannot attest to held-back upgrades because the command line "apt" system functions as I am used to from Ubuntu and even though my system is configured to not install kernel upgrades (from their GUI) I just saw a new kernel being installed through apt. The latest version of LibreOffice was installed on that system on 11th of July. That's the current version. The system was installed on June, 28. As far as apt history tells me .. well it was caused by apt-upgrade, not synaptic, so it would have installed everything. It is a long list and I have no clue what updates would have been held back by the "safe" system. But that covers the span of June 28 to July 11. I consider it almost impossible that not upgrading the kernel since the ISO version of Sarah would have created any trouble. It was probably the first upgrade... the installer must have run the commands of june 28. apt-get --force-yes --yes upgrade, apt-get --force-yes --yes dist-upgrade, and then a long list of specified package on the command line 4 minutes later. Anyway. June 28 was ISO install. July 11 was internet upgrade. How likely that LibreOffice would not have worked if only it had been upgraded? + dependencies. Further the likelyhood of Linux Mint pushing broken packages and holding back upgrades in something as predominant as LibreOffice and no one noticing until 2½ months later someone noticing is just... The problems the user indicated were of the file-ownership kind and before a repository issue or a synaptic issue. On a fresh Sarah install libreoffice is installed by default. So either this is an older installation (and this is not a bug in the LibreOffice package) (not even against current Mint) or the person had installed LibreOffice before and mangled things up prior. I doubt that, but who knows. It seems to be an out of date system but at least it is clear from this that the current Mint does not suffer any such thing. So that strengthens my conclusion that neither Ubuntu (packages) nor Mint (system) is to blame and indeed the person should report to Mint forums or something of the kind but the idea that this is a present day problem in Mint and would be caused by present day Mint alterations to the Ubuntu base system (if anything) is just not the conclusion of greatest likelihood here. Sarah upgrades from older versions of Mint suffer frequent problems and in general is completely disregarded as a viable path; the entire dist-upgrade feature for Mint causes even many more problems than it has on Ubuntu. For this reason I simply wonder what kind of system the user has; even though possible, it is doubtful it is a fresh install of Sarah? Regardless, the quick assumption that it must be something to do with Mint an sich and its alterations just doesn't seem very viable. The only reason I was writing this is that I can understand your point of view (Mint goes to Mint first, this is a user support question and has nothing to do straight away with ubuntu-devel-discuss) but also that of the OP (if it is a package issue, it is not unfair to report it against ubuntu). From my point of view it can be reconciled by saying: - It is understandable to use the email address you see in the package; because where else can you turn to so rapidly, I don't think has a strong presence in direct (email) customer support, in that sense. - It is understandable that as a user you could or would have no clue as to what is causing this issue. - If it /were/ a proper package issue you would be welcome here but given everything we know this is just not likely. - I'm sorry, but even if you fall into a support gap because of this your place is at Mint - Perhaps the system needs better tools to directly query the experience of other people, such as being able to (automatically) report statistics on correct and incorrect installs, works for me doesn't work for me, etc. Suppose we had a system of maybe 4 tiers of simple binary statements: - installs / doesn't install - runs / doesn't run (works / doesn't work) - works well / doesn't work well (I can get it to work and it does as advertized) - content / not content. People never like giving information as a default
Re: LibreOffice Install and Use Problems
hi, On Mi, 2016-09-28 at 13:00 +0200, Xen wrote: > > I simply think the likelyhood of there actually being a problem with > the > Ubuntu package in a Mint system is going to be *very* slim and if it > existed, more people would experience it, as you have indicated on > Ubuntu's side. well, tell that to the developers that spent countless hours on launchpad trying to verify mint bugs (without knowing mint is underneath). in LP we have the general rule to send mint users back to the mint bug tracker/forums etc. which the OP seemingly already experienced. > > So it just seems more prudent to 'misdirect' this support request on > the > grounds of it not being fit for a bug report against a package (ie. > it > is just a user support request and should be treated as such first > before treated as a bug against anything) and not on the grounds that > it > is against the wrong distribution; as a user support request it needs > to > go to Linux Mint, but if it actually /were/ a package issue (no > matter > how slim) it would not be that much of a problem to report it > against > Ubuntu. Or Ubuntu-devel-discuss, I mean. It's just that this user is > wrong, probably, about the nature of the issue -- sorry to offend > anyone. well, first of all this is not a support list, it exists because ubuntu-devel is developers only and there needs to be a forum where users can discuss development related issues with developers when needed ... the support list would be ubuntu-users ... beyond this how do you know the bug is not caused by a (possibly) patched libboost, a gtk patch mint applies, held back upgrades or some weird filesystem mangling the mint installer does ... there are millions of possibilities you can not take into account without deeply knowing what mint does. it doesnt matter if it is a packaging problem or not as long as there is a possibility of something non-standard in the system causing it. if the mint support can nail it down with evidence to be an ubuntu problem, then yes, there is no issue at all with filing it on launchpad. in general though i was reacting to: "The last time I tried to report a bug in this package, someone told me I was in the wrong place. I am not sure how talking to the package maintainers could be the wrong place!" ... "Unless I am mistaken, you are the package maintainers, so it does not matter what Linux system it is installed on, it should work, right?" it *does* matter a lot and the way the mint developers picked to create their distro plays a big role here. if you picked mint and it broke you simply gotta keep the pieces and solve it with mint support in the first place ... ciao oli signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: LibreOffice Install and Use Problems
Oliver Grawert schreef op 28-09-2016 11:38:
whatever results from this is definitely not supportable on an ubuntu
list ... mint isnt a flavour like {x,k,l,ed}ubuntu{-mate} where distro
changes are collaboratively made in the archive and used by everyone
with the same results, there are modifications in mint nobody but the
mint team knows about.
this is similar to mixing pure debian binary packages without re-
building against the libs with ubuntu, the result is a matter of luck
and nobody at debian would be able support this either if you came to a
debian list asking about the probs you have with such a setup.
it is fine if a mint user can actually track down the issue to an
ubuntu error to then file a bug in launchpad, no doubt. but first you
have to make sure the downstream changes have not caused the issue and
this is beyond the scope of this list.
Sure but I can definitely attest that my random 32-bit Linux Mint Sarah
system has no problems whatsoever with LibreOffice.
So it just seems prudent to direct this as a user-support question
(destined for Mint) and not necessarily as a call to never report
anything against Ubuntu; but it simply isn't a package problem as far as
I can tell (or anyone could tell from this, probably) at least not
against this package of LibreoOffice (or any of the kind) and I am
running the same version as this user and have offered my help, although
I don't know about 32-64 bit but it should never be an issue in a
package that is generated without regard of the bit-width in that sense.
I simply think the likelyhood of there actually being a problem with the
Ubuntu package in a Mint system is going to be *very* slim and if it
existed, more people would experience it, as you have indicated on
Ubuntu's side.
So it just seems more prudent to 'misdirect' this support request on the
grounds of it not being fit for a bug report against a package (ie. it
is just a user support request and should be treated as such first
before treated as a bug against anything) and not on the grounds that it
is against the wrong distribution; as a user support request it needs to
go to Linux Mint, but if it actually /were/ a package issue (no matter
how slim) it would not be that much of a problem to report it against
Ubuntu. Or Ubuntu-devel-discuss, I mean. It's just that this user is
wrong, probably, about the nature of the issue -- sorry to offend
anyone.
I'm just saying you should send him away because it cannot be a package
problem and not because it is against the wrong flavour of the species
;-).
And to find out you would first require regular Mint support, you are
right about that, it is just not all "that" far out to come to the idea
that "hey, it's an ubuntu package, let's report it to ubuntu" (Ubuntu)
-- that's not a crazed idea, it's just hard to tell where the issue is
for a regular person.
Sorry for the length, I guess we are saying the same thing at this
point.
Regards.
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Re: LibreOffice Install and Use Problems
hi,
Am Dienstag, den 27.09.2016, 22:29 +0200 schrieb Xen:
>
> I furthermore doubt it is even possible, even remotely possible, that
> it
> would be a problem with the libreoffice packages. But Mint is so
> similar
> that it is also unlikely that the package itself would cause
> problems.
> They are just not that different I think.
>
> However, who knows. If you cannot report it on the Linux Mint
> forums,
> I'm not sure there is a way to get help. Regards.
>
linux mint patches a bunch of core libraries without re-building the
dependencies on top (gtk for example), they also hold back a bunch of
updates by default and mark them "dangerous" to the user (kernel, xorg,
grub etc).
whatever results from this is definitely not supportable on an ubuntu
list ... mint isnt a flavour like {x,k,l,ed}ubuntu{-mate} where distro
changes are collaboratively made in the archive and used by everyone
with the same results, there are modifications in mint nobody but the
mint team knows about.
this is similar to mixing pure debian binary packages without re-
building against the libs with ubuntu, the result is a matter of luck
and nobody at debian would be able support this either if you came to a
debian list asking about the probs you have with such a setup.
it is fine if a mint user can actually track down the issue to an
ubuntu error to then file a bug in launchpad, no doubt. but first you
have to make sure the downstream changes have not caused the issue and
this is beyond the scope of this list.
ciao
oi
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Re: LibreOffice Install and Use Problems
Oliver Grawert schreef op 27-09-2016 18:35: hi, Am Dienstag, den 27.09.2016, 08:51 -0700 schrieb paulwhee...@cox.net: Package info: Version: 1:5.1.4-0ubuntu1 (xenial-updates) Unless I am mistaken, you are the package maintainers, so it does not matter what Linux system it is installed on, it should work, right? yes, these are ubuntu packages, developed and tested against a specific ubuntu release, against ubuntu libraries and ubuntu installations ... they do not get tested against mint installs, modified mint libraries or mint desktops ... you should talk to the mint maintainers why an ubuntu package does not work on your mint install. your assumption that it does not matter which linux sytem a binary that was built against a specific set of dependencies of a specific distro runs on is wrong. it matters a lot, especially if you use a package with a lot of dependencies like libreoffice. try asking the mint guys. in case you or they can track your breakage down to a specific ubuntu related issue, feel free to file an ubuntu bug on launchpad ... I must say I consider it unlikely that a great number of Mint users would have the issue also. I have never witnessed any such issue on Mint with any package, but I have not used it that long. However the error seems to indicate (or would remind one of) having run a software package /while being root/ using sudo instead of gksudo or whatever the equivalent is these days. This would typically overwrite user home files with root-owned equivalents and I think we are all familiar with that. I furthermore doubt it is even possible, even remotely possible, that it would be a problem with the libreoffice packages. But Mint is so similar that it is also unlikely that the package itself would cause problems. They are just not that different I think. However, who knows. If you cannot report it on the Linux Mint forums, I'm not sure there is a way to get help. Regards. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: LibreOffice Install and Use Problems
On Tue, 2016-09-27 at 08:51 -0700, paulwhee...@cox.net wrote: > I attempted to install LibreOffice (office productivity suite > (metapackage)) on my mint Linux system. > 1. Synaptic said the package was broken - Image 1. I changed > repositories and got it to install. > 2. However, it would not start. Found that it had been installed as a > file owned by root, so user could not run it. - Image 2. I changed > owner to user. > 3. I tried to start it, again, and got message 3. > > The last time I tried to report a bug in this package, someone told me > I was in the wrong place. I am not sure how talking to the package > maintainers could be the wrong place! I think you're misunderstanding the complexity of the F/OSS ecosystem. For a software package like LibreOffice, there are upstream maintainers who actually write the code. They provide source code to users. Some of those maintainers also provide binary packages that can be installed; LibreOffice does this for example: https://www.libreoffice.org/download/libreoffice-fresh/ However, most upstream maintainers don't do this, they only provide source code. Then there are the distributions: Ubuntu, Debian, Red Hat, Gentoo, Arch, etc. They take the source code from upstream maintainers for all the different packages that make up a complete GNU/Linux system, compile them to create packages that are appropriate for their particular distribution (and do a huge amount of other work involved with constructing a usable and useful system from a bunch of component parts). So you can't (generally) install a Red Hat package on a Debian system, or a Gentoo package on a CentOS system, etc. You have to get the package that was built for your particular distribution. That's why people are telling you that you're in the wrong place: problems with the installation of packages are specific to the distribution you're using, and you're using Linux Mint, not Ubuntu--this mailing list is for people using the Ubuntu distribution. Linux Mint in particular is a "derived distribution", which means it is created by taking the results of another distribution (in this case Ubuntu and Debian), and adding its own set of packages on top of that. So, a large number of the packages in Linux Mint _are_ straightforward Ubuntu packages, unmodified. But, not all of them, and the package management on Mint is not identical to Ubuntu (as I understand it), which means problems in package installation may not be related to Ubuntu. I'm sure that if people using Ubuntu were having this problem installing LibreOffice on their systems we'd know about it by now, so presumably the problem is specific to Linux Mint. You'll have more luck asking on one of the forums here: https://www.linuxmint.com/links.php It may be that after discussion there you'll find that there really is a problem with the Ubuntu packaging, but it seems unlikely as LibreOffice is hugely popular. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: LibreOffice Install and Use Problems
hi, Am Dienstag, den 27.09.2016, 08:51 -0700 schrieb paulwhee...@cox.net: > > Package info: Version: 1:5.1.4-0ubuntu1 (xenial-updates) > > > Unless I am mistaken, you are the package maintainers, so it does not > matter what Linux system it is installed on, it should work, right? yes, these are ubuntu packages, developed and tested against a specific ubuntu release, against ubuntu libraries and ubuntu installations ... they do not get tested against mint installs, modified mint libraries or mint desktops ... you should talk to the mint maintainers why an ubuntu package does not work on your mint install. your assumption that it does not matter which linux sytem a binary that was built against a specific set of dependencies of a specific distro runs on is wrong. it matters a lot, especially if you use a package with a lot of dependencies like libreoffice. try asking the mint guys. in case you or they can track your breakage down to a specific ubuntu related issue, feel free to file an ubuntu bug on launchpad ... ciao oli signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
