RE: Proposal to delay release of Precise Pangolin
A lot of stuff is going to need to be backported. Here's a phoronix link that tells of 50 power patches from Intel that landed this morning in 3.3 kernel. Not to mention graphics related stuff that 3.3 gains. http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_itempx=MTA0NDE Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2011 14:24:38 +1100 From: them...@ubuntu.com To: ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Subject: Re: Proposal to delay release of Precise Pangolin On Tue, Dec 13, 2011 at 01:33:11PM EST, nick rundy wrote: Here's a link to a thread that was posted today on Ubuntu Forums arguing that Precise Pangolin should be delayed long enough to incorporate the 3.3 Linux kernel into the release. The argument being that the 3.3 kernel will resolve many more graphical and power bugs than the 3.2 kernel can. http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1894436 In such circumstances, the Ubuntu kernel team often backports patches it feels are important for a release. Since we do have some focus on power usage this cycle, I am sure all useful and relevant patches will be backported from 3.3, since this is an LTS release cycle. Luke -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Proposal to delay release of Precise Pangolin
On Wed, Oct 19, 2011 at 3:15 AM, nick rundy nru...@hotmail.com wrote: Canonical/Ubuntu, please don't feel obligated to release Precise Pangolin in April 2012. A delayed release would strengthen stability and allow more bugs to be fixed in both Unity and GNOME 3.2. Considering the long-lived nature of an LTS release, it would be preferable if Precise Pangolin was delayed a month or two (or more) than for it to be released on time with visible bugs. There are so many bugs that plague Oneiric. Many exist in GNOME 3.2. Perhaps Precise could be delayed a month or two and Ubuntu developers could fix some of the minor bugs plaguing GNOME 3.2? After reading the following posts i wanted to raise the release issue. It seems that staff are under a lot of pressure to deliver the 6 month releases as well as LTS. I've been using Ubuntu for about 5 yrs and it seems that quality varies between releases likely due to the pressure staff are under. Would it not be better for all to produce an annual version that's allowed time for testing and bug fixing. LTS is ok but second year and one is starting to find quite a few apps that have been updated and a six month release simply doesn't give adequate time for staff. If you're wondering what i do... i'm an april updater james -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Proposal to delay release of Precise Pangolin
On 12/13/2011 12:11 AM, James Freer wrote: After reading the following posts i wanted to raise the release issue. It seems that staff are under a lot of pressure to deliver the 6 month releases as well as LTS. I've been using Ubuntu for about 5 yrs and it seems that quality varies between releases likely due to the pressure staff are under. Would it not be better for all to produce an annual version that's allowed time for testing and bug fixing. LTS is ok but second year and one is starting to find quite a few apps that have been updated and a six month release simply doesn't give adequate time for staff. If you're wondering what i do... i'm an april updater A release cycle that's twice as long doesn't really give you more time to test changes, it just gives you twice as many changes to test. And it makes some kinds of changes much more difficult, because they need to be staged over multiple releases for a smooth transition. Here's a good post (short): http://jroller.com/thuss/entry/there_are_pros_and_cons But if you have time, I recommend reading Martin Michlmayr's full Doctoral dissertation. http://www.cyrius.com/publications/michlmayr-phd.html From the conclusion: == In contrast to traditional software development which is feature-driven, the goal of time based release management is to produce high quality releases according to a specific release interval. This dissertation has shown that feature based release management in FOSS projects is often associated with lack of planning, which leads to problems, such as delays and low levels of quality. [...] Time based releases are associated with two factors that act as important coordination mechanisms: 1. Regularity: the production of releases according to a specific interval allows projects to create regular reference points which show contributors what kind of changes other members of the project have made. Regularity also contributes to familiarity with the release process, and it leads to more disciplined processes. 2. Schedules: by using time rather than features as the orientation for a release, planning becomes possible in voluntary projects. Time based projects can create schedules which describes important deadlines and which contains dependency information between different work items and actors. Together, these mechanism reduce the degree of active coordination required in a project. Developers can work on self-assigned work items independently and with the help of the schedule integrate them into the project in time for the release. As such, the time based release strategy is a means of dealing with the complexity found in geographically distributed volunteer projects with hundreds of contributors. == Allison -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Proposal to delay release of Precise Pangolin
On Tue, Dec 13, 2011 at 9:20 AM, Allison Randal alli...@canonical.com wrote: On 12/13/2011 12:11 AM, James Freer wrote: After reading the following posts i wanted to raise the release issue. It seems that staff are under a lot of pressure to deliver the 6 month releases as well as LTS. I've been using Ubuntu for about 5 yrs and it seems that quality varies between releases likely due to the pressure staff are under. Would it not be better for all to produce an annual version that's allowed time for testing and bug fixing. LTS is ok but second year and one is starting to find quite a few apps that have been updated and a six month release simply doesn't give adequate time for staff. If you're wondering what i do... i'm an april updater A release cycle that's twice as long doesn't really give you more time to test changes, it just gives you twice as many changes to test. And it makes some kinds of changes much more difficult, because they need to be staged over multiple releases for a smooth transition. Here's a good post (short): http://jroller.com/thuss/entry/there_are_pros_and_cons But if you have time, I recommend reading Martin Michlmayr's full Doctoral dissertation. http://www.cyrius.com/publications/michlmayr-phd.html From the conclusion: == In contrast to traditional software development which is feature-driven, the goal of time based release management is to produce high quality releases according to a specific release interval. This dissertation has shown that feature based release management in FOSS projects is often associated with lack of planning, which leads to problems, such as delays and low levels of quality. [...] Time based releases are associated with two factors that act as important coordination mechanisms: 1. Regularity: the production of releases according to a specific interval allows projects to create regular reference points which show contributors what kind of changes other members of the project have made. Regularity also contributes to familiarity with the release process, and it leads to more disciplined processes. 2. Schedules: by using time rather than features as the orientation for a release, planning becomes possible in voluntary projects. Time based projects can create schedules which describes important deadlines and which contains dependency information between different work items and actors. Together, these mechanism reduce the degree of active coordination required in a project. Developers can work on self-assigned work items independently and with the help of the schedule integrate them into the project in time for the release. As such, the time based release strategy is a means of dealing with the complexity found in geographically distributed volunteer projects with hundreds of contributors. == Allison Allison... WOW I really do appreciate your reply. I didn't fully understand time based releases and should really have done some research... all seemed 'above my head'. I have downloaded Martins' dissertation but it's going to take me a few days to 'read and digest'. thanks james -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
RE: Proposal to delay release of Precise Pangolin
Here's a link to a thread that was posted today on Ubuntu Forums arguing that Precise Pangolin should be delayed long enough to incorporate the 3.3 Linux kernel into the release. The argument being that the 3.3 kernel will resolve many more graphical and power bugs than the 3.2 kernel can. http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1894436 -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Proposal to delay release of Precise Pangolin
On Tue, Dec 13, 2011 at 01:33:11PM EST, nick rundy wrote: Here's a link to a thread that was posted today on Ubuntu Forums arguing that Precise Pangolin should be delayed long enough to incorporate the 3.3 Linux kernel into the release. The argument being that the 3.3 kernel will resolve many more graphical and power bugs than the 3.2 kernel can. http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1894436 In such circumstances, the Ubuntu kernel team often backports patches it feels are important for a release. Since we do have some focus on power usage this cycle, I am sure all useful and relevant patches will be backported from 3.3, since this is an LTS release cycle. Luke -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Proposal to delay release of Precise Pangolin
2011/10/19 Dustin Kirkland kirkl...@ubuntu.com: The 12.04.1 (the first of the dot releases) is scheduled for 23 August 2012, which is about 4 months after the 12.04 release (26 April 2012). The dot release is, in fact, a bug-fix and hardware-enablement only release cycle. Realistically, some enterprise server and corporate desktop users won't upgrade until that first dot release. Actually since Update Manager only starts offering 10.04 LTS - 12.04 LTS around the .1 time frame, most of the LTS users won't upgrade until then. I think that's great and precisely like it should be. Most of the current 11.10 users will upgrade to 12.04 earlier, and already get a lot more polished release than the usual half-yearly. Then the LTS users should get a really smooth experience in August with the additional fixes. -Timo -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
RE: Proposal to delay release of Precise Pangolin
I appreciate your e-mail, Martin :) * These types of bugs are too big/complex for quick patches and too small or unimportant for critical attention. This is what I'm getting at. I don't doubt this is true. However, fixing this stuff is what's going to make a critical difference in users coming to, enjoying, and staying with Ubuntu. Put the rapid release schedule on hold temporarily and make an LTS that fixes this stuff. Then the LTS can last a long time as the face of Ubuntu. The status quo has become new releases perpetuating old bugs that are years old. The LTS releases up to this point are better than the 6-months but they still contain these bugs. I'm proposing that if bug #1 is going to be Fix Released, the current full speed ahead rapid-release approach has to at least take a break for a cycle and address this stuff. NOW is an appropriate time because of Unity and GNOME 3.2. There's a lot of stuff that needs fixing in Unity and GNOME 3.2. *The gnome programmer deals with bugs as he feels like it and expects patches. Is there anything to prevent Ubuntu developers from saying, Hey, is it okay if I take this and fix this bug? * No one answered the question 'did you try compact layout' Compact Layout works to some extent. But what about use scenarios where the user needs the increased zoom only available in Icon View? I understand your point Nick, I'd really like a cycle that focuses _only_ on bug fixing and nothing else. But I'd also like a cycle that took everyone off coding to train a 100 new kernel hackers and 50 new xorg slaves. Perhaps this should be done? Delay the release of Precise Pangolin and really refine it. Then miss a 6-month release or two and spend the time training 100 new kernel hackers and 50 new xorg slaves. With a strong, refined LTS, Ubuntu will be fine for 2-3 years. To use an analogy from athletics: when you've been training hard for a long time, taking some time off will help you make gains because it gives the body time to grow from the training. Let Ubuntu grow into Unity and GNOME 3.2 bug-free. Unity was an awesome accomplishment IMHO. I'm proposing that NOW is the time to pull it all together by making an ultra-refined bug-free LTS product that can truly begin to tackle Bug #1. It's going to be an LTS that takes on Windows, not one of the 6-month releases. Subject: Re: Proposal to delay release of Precise Pangolin From: docto...@gmail.com To: nru...@hotmail.com CC: ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 23:27:01 -0400 On Tue, 2011-10-18 at 22:15 -0400, nick rundy wrote: Yet the bug has existed for more than 3 years. Sadly, the same can be said for many other bugs. To be fair to the bug: * No one answered the question 'did you try compact layout' * Nautilus is a 'special' codebase which I wouldn't want to touch again this side of the 21st century, ugly and duplicative spaghetti. * Anything to do with how something looks, workflow or speed is not going to get fixed by the fire fighters or cathedral builders. * These types of bugs are too big/complex for quick patches and too small or unimportant for critical attention. * No user continues to pay for bug fixes, no economics and no other relationship between programmer and user. The gnome programmer deals with bugs as he feels like it and expects patches. I understand your point Nick, I'd really like a cycle that focuses _only_ on bug fixing and nothing else. But I'd also like a cycle that took everyone off coding to train a 100 new kernel hackers and 50 new xorg slaves. If wishes could be put in dishes the world would be delicious. Best Regards, Martin Owens -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Proposal to delay release of Precise Pangolin
Hi Joseph On 11-10-19 12:21 AM, Joseph Toppi wrote: Because no one else seemed willing to check, compact view does remove the needless amount of margin, but also switches to a more list-like look and changes the scrolling to horizontal. I checked in Nautilus 2.32.2.1 the version that ships with 11.04 with all updates applied. What kind of QA process is there before a release, how can I help with that? The QA team can always use some more hands, there's even a dedicated QA site where you can get all the information you need: http://qa.ubuntu.com/ It seems that the Desktop testing program is of particular interest to you: http://qa.ubuntu.com/testing/desktop-testing-program/ -Jonathan -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Proposal to delay release of Precise Pangolin
On Wed, Oct 19, 2011 at 9:27 AM, Jonathan Carter (highvoltage) jonat...@ubuntu.com wrote: Hi Joseph On 11-10-19 12:21 AM, Joseph Toppi wrote: Because no one else seemed willing to check, compact view does remove the needless amount of margin, but also switches to a more list-like look and changes the scrolling to horizontal. I checked in Nautilus 2.32.2.1 the version that ships with 11.04 with all updates applied. What kind of QA process is there before a release, how can I help with that? The QA team can always use some more hands, there's even a dedicated QA site where you can get all the information you need: http://qa.ubuntu.com/ It seems that the Desktop testing program is of particular interest to you: http://qa.ubuntu.com/testing/desktop-testing-program/ The QA team is already doing a fantastic job from my perspective :) More to the point, they're not in desperate need of extra help (although I'm sure they wouldn't say no to it). It seems to me that we need more developers fixing bugs, not more people trying to find bugs. We're already finding more bugs than we fix. Just my two cents, Evan -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Proposal to delay release of Precise Pangolin
On Tue, Oct 18, 2011 at 9:15 PM, nick rundy nru...@hotmail.com wrote: Canonical/Ubuntu, please don't feel obligated to release Precise Pangolin in April 2012. A delayed release would strengthen stability and allow more bugs to be fixed in both Unity and GNOME 3.2. Considering the long-lived nature of an LTS release, it would be preferable if Precise Pangolin was delayed a month or two (or more) than for it to be released on time with visible bugs. There are so many bugs that plague Oneiric. Many exist in GNOME 3.2. Perhaps Precise could be delayed a month or two and Ubuntu developers could fix some of the minor bugs plaguing GNOME 3.2? Although ranked as minor, some of these bugs have existed for years and really hurt the usability of Ubuntu. For example, please see bug https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=552093 and take a look at the screenshots posted by the bug's commentators. John Strandberg recently posted a screenshot of Oneiric that highlights how much this bug hurts productivity. Yet the bug has existed for more than 3 years. Sadly, the same can be said for many other bugs. I love Oneiric, but it has too many bugs. Please consider delaying release and having Ubuntu developers fix as many bugs as possible for Precise, even if it means fixing bugs that GNOME themselves should be fixing. I feel confident that the community will have no problem with a delay, even if it means skipping a 6 month release for once. The integrity of the LTS is worth it. https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PrecisePangolin/ReleaseSchedule So that sort of happens, with the LTS dot releases :-) The 12.04.1 (the first of the dot releases) is scheduled for 23 August 2012, which is about 4 months after the 12.04 release (26 April 2012). The dot release is, in fact, a bug-fix and hardware-enablement only release cycle. Realistically, some enterprise server and corporate desktop users won't upgrade until that first dot release. For those interested in stabilization and quality assurance of Ubuntu 12.04, we'd very much invite you to get involved with your friendly Ubuntu QA, SRU, and LTS dot release teams! Cheers, -- :-Dustin Dustin Kirkland Ubuntu Core Developer -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
RE: Proposal to delay release of Precise Pangolin
On mié, 2011-10-19 at 09:02 -0400, nick rundy wrote: I appreciate your e-mail, Martin :) * These types of bugs are too big/complex for quick patches and too small or unimportant for critical attention. This is what I'm getting at. I don't doubt this is true. However, fixing this stuff is what's going to make a critical difference in users coming to, enjoying, and staying with Ubuntu. Put the rapid release schedule on hold temporarily and make an LTS that fixes this stuff. Then the LTS can last a long time as the face of Ubuntu. The status quo has become new releases perpetuating old bugs that are years old. The LTS releases up to this point are better than the 6-months but they still contain these bugs. I'm proposing that if bug #1 is going to be Fix Released, the current full speed ahead rapid-release approach has to at least take a break for a cycle and address this stuff. NOW is an appropriate time because of Unity and GNOME 3.2. There's a lot of stuff that needs fixing in Unity and GNOME 3.2. I really think a bit more of time between the GNOME releases and the Ubuntu final release would help a lot in cleaning lots of these bugs. Usually, the x.x.1 release of GNOME is much better, since it includes lots of fixes for lots of issues as people start using the final stable release in their distros. So, getting x.x.1 in the final Ubuntu release would help a lot. Of course, not saying all bugs would get fixed, but it would help in having more of this kind of bugs fixed. Also, still talking about GNOME, the desktop team doesn't have enough man power to fix Ubuntu and GNOME upstream bugs, so yes, we also need 25/50 more desktop developers :) -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Proposal to delay release of Precise Pangolin
On Wed, Oct 19, 2011 at 10:43 AM, Rodrigo Moya rodrigo.m...@canonical.com wrote: I really think a bit more of time between the GNOME releases and the Ubuntu final release would help a lot in cleaning lots of these bugs. Usually, the x.x.1 release of GNOME is much better, since it includes lots of fixes for lots of issues as people start using the final stable release in their distros. So, getting x.x.1 in the final Ubuntu release would help a lot. In this case, the LTS release will be after the x.x.1 release of GNOME, but not by much. GNOME 3.4.1 is scheduled for April 18th [0]. 12.04 is scheduled for April 26th, but the Release Candidate is scheduled for April 19th [1]. Of course, this is mostly a moot point for Precise. It's still under discussion, but it seems like we're not going to have 3.4 in Precise. According to the desktop team list the plan seem to be to stick with 3.2.x. [0] https://live.gnome.org/action/show/ThreePointThree [1] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PrecisePangolin/ReleaseSchedule -- Andrew Starr-Bochicchio Ubuntu Developer https://launchpad.net/~andrewsomething Debian Maintainer http://qa.debian.org/developer.php?login=a.starr.b%40gmail.com PGP/GPG Key ID: D53FDCB1 -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Proposal to delay release of Precise Pangolin
On 19 October 2011 10:58, Andrew Starr-Bochicchio a.star...@gmail.com wrote: In this case, the LTS release will be after the x.x.1 release of GNOME, but not by much. GNOME 3.4.1 is scheduled for April 18th [0]. 12.04 is scheduled for April 26th, but the Release Candidate is scheduled for April 19th [1]. Of course, this is mostly a moot point for Precise. It's still under discussion, but it seems like we're not going to have 3.4 in Precise. According to the desktop team list the plan seem to be to stick with 3.2.x. My unscientific prediction is that we'll have at least half of 3.4 in Precise. The question is more about how many and what specific apps we want to hold back to 3.2 to focus packaging and bugfixing efforts for the best quality by release time. Even in Oneiric's case, we held back Totem (3.2 seems to require working 3D graphics), Epiphany (confusion about whether new WebKit would be stable in time), and GDM (lack of manpower/attention). Jeremy Bicha -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
RE: Proposal to delay release of Precise Pangolin
Le mercredi 19 octobre 2011 à 16:43 +0200, Rodrigo Moya a écrit : Usually, the x.x.1 release of GNOME is much better, since it includes lots of fixes for lots of issues as people start using the final stable release in their distros. To be fair we always had our schedule adapted to include .1 until 10.10, then the schedule got shifted to accomodate 10.10.10 and stayed shifted, we should probably revisit and go back to what we were doing... -- Sebastien Bacher -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Proposal to delay release of Precise Pangolin
On Tue, 2011-10-18 at 22:15 -0400, nick rundy wrote: Yet the bug has existed for more than 3 years. Sadly, the same can be said for many other bugs. To be fair to the bug: * No one answered the question 'did you try compact layout' * Nautilus is a 'special' codebase which I wouldn't want to touch again this side of the 21st century, ugly and duplicative spaghetti. * Anything to do with how something looks, workflow or speed is not going to get fixed by the fire fighters or cathedral builders. * These types of bugs are too big/complex for quick patches and too small or unimportant for critical attention. * Nouser continues to pay for bug fixes, no economics and no other relationship between programmer and user. The gnome programmer deals with bugs as he feels like it and expects patches. I understand your point Nick, I'd really like a cycle that focuses _only_ on bug fixing and nothing else. But I'd also like a cycle that took everyone off coding to train a 100 new kernel hackers and 50 new xorg slaves. If wishes could be put in dishes the world would be delicious. Best Regards, Martin Owens -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Proposal to delay release of Precise Pangolin
I really do think bugs will hurt the long term health of the project. Up through 11.04 I had always gotten a few bugfixes with each upgrade. I had a few random bugs that I was living with, but for the most part everything worked. I had 3d acceleration with my nvidia card, I could use a second monitor, I could close the lid to suspend the machine, and in general it just behaved as expected. With 11.10 I lost the ability to suspend (now the machine becomes non-responsive when I close the lid), I gained a 3d rendering bug that was originally reported a month after 11.04 that affects my second monitor, I cannot even rely on the pixmaps for my icons loading because sometimes I get just get blank little rectangles. If I wanted mysterious bugs I would have stuck with windows, most Linux advocates tout stability however I cannot see doing that with 11.10. By any measure Gentoo was more stable than this release :( . Because no one else seemed willing to check, compact view does remove the needless amount of margin, but also switches to a more list-like look and changes the scrolling to horizontal. I checked in Nautilus 2.32.2.1 the version that ships with 11.04 with all updates applied. What kind of QA process is there before a release, how can I help with that? On Tue, Oct 18, 2011 at 10:27 PM, Martin Owens docto...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, 2011-10-18 at 22:15 -0400, nick rundy wrote: Yet the bug has existed for more than 3 years. Sadly, the same can be said for many other bugs. To be fair to the bug: * No one answered the question 'did you try compact layout' * Nautilus is a 'special' codebase which I wouldn't want to touch again this side of the 21st century, ugly and duplicative spaghetti. * Anything to do with how something looks, workflow or speed is not going to get fixed by the fire fighters or cathedral builders. * These types of bugs are too big/complex for quick patches and too small or unimportant for critical attention. * Nouser continues to pay for bug fixes, no economics and no other relationship between programmer and user. The gnome programmer deals with bugs as he feels like it and expects patches. I understand your point Nick, I'd really like a cycle that focuses _only_ on bug fixing and nothing else. But I'd also like a cycle that took everyone off coding to train a 100 new kernel hackers and 50 new xorg slaves. If wishes could be put in dishes the world would be delicious. Best Regards, Martin Owens -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss -- - Joe Toppi (402) 714-7539 top...@gmail.com -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
