Re: The google custom search - perhaps it went there by itself?
On sam., 2009-07-25 at 16:45 +0200, Vincenzo Ciancia wrote: 1) on this list, nobody knows the answer. I think this is likely. Then, the custom search should be removed from firefox. Nobody knows why it is there. You seem to jump to a weird conclusion, because busy maintainers don't read your emails on a noisy discuss list you advice to drop changes? Wouldn't it make sense to rather try contacting the maintainer or the ubuntu mozilla team about the issue or to open a bug on launchpad so you can get a reply from the people doing the changes? Sebastien Bacher -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: The google custom search - perhaps it went there by itself?
2009/7/27 Sebastien Bacher seb...@ubuntu.com: Wouldn't it make sense to rather try contacting the maintainer or the ubuntu mozilla team about the issue or to open a bug on launchpad so you can get a reply from the people doing the changes? ..or read his blog post about it :) http://www.asoftsite.org/s9y/archives/162-What-is-this-Multisearch-thing-in-my-Firefox-about.html (which I can see Vincenzo already has, and has indeed commented on it [assuming that's Vincenzo]). Cheers, Al. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: The google custom search - perhaps it went there by itself?
Il 27/07/2009 10:52, Alan Pope ha scritto: ..or read his blog post about it:) http://www.asoftsite.org/s9y/archives/162-What-is-this-Multisearch-thing-in-my-Firefox-about.html (which I can see Vincenzo already has, and has indeed commented on it [assuming that's Vincenzo]). When someone can start reading my e-mail... I already explained very well that the object of the question is not the multi-search but the default search page which *has been there since hardy* and I also am perceiving this big confusion between multisearch, which is a testing feature, and the default page, which has been there since hardy, as a way to take time and not reply. Do you know anything about the custom search? If so, tell us, if not, you are confirming my theory, not the opposite. Vincenzo -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: The google custom search - perhaps it went there by itself?
Il 27/07/2009 10:46, Sebastien Bacher ha scritto: On sam., 2009-07-25 at 16:45 +0200, Vincenzo Ciancia wrote: 1) on this list, nobody knows the answer. I think this is likely. Then, the custom search should be removed from firefox. Nobody knows why it is there. You seem to jump to a weird conclusion, because busy maintainers don't read your emails on a noisy discuss list you advice to drop changes? Wouldn't it make sense to rather try contacting the maintainer or the ubuntu mozilla team about the issue or to open a bug on launchpad so you can get a reply from the people doing the changes? Sebastien Bacher Sebastian: did you notice another message that has been there for one year? I already told in previous messages that time is not an excuse for that reason, but let me link it: http://www.mail-archive.com/ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com/msg04111.html An important topic may also deserve a timely clarification, even if that other message had not been there for more than one year. We all are busy. Me too. I do real work, but sometimes I prioritize important things. Maybe this issue is just not important for ubuntu, we shall see. For me it is urgent: I need to know if it's worth keeping contributing to ubuntu or not, because if principles did not come before technical merits for me, 12 years ago, when gnome and kde did not exist, I would have stayed with windows, or perhaps I'd have gotten a mac. I contacted the ubuntu mozilla team, as you suggest, and did not get any reply. A bug does not make sense here because mine is a question, not a bug report. Do you know anything about the search page? If so, tell us, if not, you are confirming my theory, not the opposite. Vincenzo -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: The google custom search - perhaps it went there by itself?
(could you stop private copying me and reply on the list?) On lun., 2009-07-27 at 12:16 +0200, Vincenzo Ciancia wrote: Sebastian: did you notice another message that has been there for one year? How does that change the fact that the people you want to reach might not be reading the list you are posting to now? Sebastien Bacher -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: The google custom search - perhaps it went there by itself?
Il 27/07/2009 12:26, Sebastien Bacher ha scritto: (could you stop private copying me and reply on the list?) On lun., 2009-07-27 at 12:16 +0200, Vincenzo Ciancia wrote: Sebastian: did you notice another message that has been there for one year? How does that change the fact that the people you want to reach might not be reading the list you are posting to now? Sebastien Bacher That's the most universal place that I know where users and developers may meet. Certainly ubuntu-devel is not the right place (maybe it's even moderated?). How can you be sure ubuntu-mozilla developers and maybe M.S. are not reading this list? Is it possible that nobody here consider the issue important enough to eventually forward it to somebody who can know the answer? Are you a community or what? Sebastian: if you are not involved you don't need to reply at all, this message is not for you. If nobody in this list knows either an answer or cares to forward the issue, maybe the problem is hidden/buried enough to justify my concerns. V. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: The google custom search - perhaps it went there by itself?
On Mon, Jul 27, 2009 at 1:05 PM, Vincenzo Cianciacian...@di.unipi.it wrote: That's the most universal place that I know where users and developers may meet. Certainly ubuntu-devel is not the right place (maybe it's even moderated?). How can you be sure ubuntu-mozilla developers and maybe M.S. are not reading this list? Is it possible that nobody here consider the issue important enough to eventually forward it to somebody who can know the answer? Are you a community or what? Are you not part of this community? I do think nobody here knows the answer. It's something specific to one package (albeit an important one). It's probably best to get in touch with the Mozilla team directly: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MozillaTeam#Communication Remco -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: The google custom search - perhaps it went there by itself?
Are you not part of this community? No, I am not a developer. I am part of the broader community of ubuntu users (I do lots of bug reporting). If I write to ubuntu-devel-discuss maybe there is some developer on it, and maybe they can even communicate between each other. But let us stop questioning this since I am not as stupid as I may look like, therefore I also contacted the list you suggest, as I _already_ replied to Sebastien. That was only two days ago, so you can still scream that this problem is all my fault and that there is nothing bad, that I have to be patient and wait for a reply. I am NOT going to second this: lots of important people, including Mark Shuttleworth, read this list, and if nobody has been concerned with replying about that issue for more than one year, then ubuntu is not respecting the principles that lead _me_ to use and campaign for free software. Time may be still an excuse, so I am going to wait for a week more for an ubuntu-mozilla-team reply. If the issue is not important they may reply in six months or so, but for me it has become an urgent matter. It already was urgent one year ago, but I decided I could live with that. When I saw the custom page being pushed also in the firefox search box, which has the google symbol on it, and no ubuntu specific decoration, I realised I had not been doing my duties as a free software advocate and user, and decided that this time I will either get a satisfactory reply or quit. I publicly committed to the free software philosophy many times, also during my career, so for me it is vital to know if what I am working for is what I expect. I do think nobody here knows the answer. It's something specific to one package (albeit an important one). It's probably best to get in touch with the Mozilla team directly: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MozillaTeam#Communication Remco Let us not joke about this. Surely much more people than that team knows about this, I do NOT believe that it's a decision of their own, that was not discussed in a broader council. That is why I expected somebody on THIS list to know about that. The fact that I am alone in asking and, also, no developer is worried about that page, is really strange. I can't believe, for example, that ex-debian-developers may pass this under silence. That's another reason why I thought this list would have been ok. Probably philosophy does not drive free software anymore. Eventually, I will grow up and understand that free software is only about licenses, and that money drives all of us. That's a problem of my own. Vincenzo -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: The google custom search - perhaps it went there by itself?
Vincenzo Ciancia wrote: The fact that there is nobody willing to reply (I posted a similar message one year ago, so this is certainly not a matter of time) can mean only two things: 1) on this list, nobody knows the answer. I think this is likely. Then, the custom search should be removed from firefox. Nobody knows why it is there. 2) someone knows, but they are ashamed to tell the truth. This is likely too. If you just want to adopt a marketing strategy, damnit, just admit it. The majority of users including myself will continue to use ubuntu. But why silence? This is really worrying. Hi Vincenzo, With all due respect, I think you're missing a more likely possibility: Developers look at the level of bitterness in this thread, and at the ratio of people that have been attacked vs. people that have been treated respectfully, do a quick cost:benefit analysis of posting, and decide that they're better off keeping quiet. I understand that you're annoyed because you feel an issue that's important to you has been ignored for a long time, but venting your feelings to the list is never productive. You are more likely to get useful responses if you focus on constructive areas of debate, and ignore irrelevant sub-threads wherever possible. Doing so will make your thread look more attractive to potential posters. - Andrew -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: The google custom search - perhaps it went there by itself?
I understand that you're annoyed because you feel an issue that's important to you has been ignored for a long time, but venting your feelings to the list is never productive. You are more likely to get useful responses if you focus on constructive areas of debate, and ignore irrelevant sub-threads wherever possible. Doing so will make your thread look more attractive to potential posters. - Andrew This is why I asked very politely and concisely, both one year ago, and three days ago. I even posted a second message to clarify that I was not referring to the multi-search. So if you know something about the google custom search you can reply to the first message and I will not injury anyone. Being direct and being polite may live together. I know that it is easier to not reply when it can likely cause a mess. But not replying is going to cause a mess anyways because it is evident from the sole startup page that the user is not informed. Vincenzo -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: The google custom search
Il 27/07/2009 17:42, Vincenzo Ciancia ha scritto: the forms submitted to ubuntu.com The forms are not submitted to ubuntu.com so that is a non-issue. Changed the bug accordingly. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: The google custom search - perhaps it went there by itself?
[1]: http://www.techcrunch.com/2008/08/28/mozilla-extends-lucrative-deal-with-google-for-3-years/ Oli, thanks for this link. So next time I'll see some crappy microsoft search engine by default in internet explorer I will not laugh at their users anymore. V. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: The google custom search - perhaps it went there by itself?
Il 26/07/2009 03:34, Jan Claeys ha scritto: The custom search is quite annoying and intrusive. I've resorted to using the binary download. Eh, you know that you can add/remove whatever search engine you want, don't you? Jan, did you read my e-mails? It is clear to everybody that 1) we can customize firefox and 2) this is an effect of it being open source. My concerns are of a completely different nature. It seems to me that they are pushing a custom search making it look like a standard search page (even if it has an ubuntu logo). My mother (if I had not changed the start page for her) would certainly have been tricked into the thing. And wonder why on linux there are no maps or conversions. And I think that this is not acceptable in a free software distribution. At least, these are not the principles that led me to push ubuntu among people of all sort, and to help with bug reporting in my free time. V. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: The google custom search - and the invasion of the multisearch
The worst thing of it all is that whenever ubuntu touches firefox (e.g. I installed today the italian localization because when I installed karmic it was not available) it OVERWRITES MY SETTINGS WITH YOURS. I call this hammering and normally would ban the user, except that I can't yet ban ubuntu from my pc. So I wasted time to fix my own installation editing about:config, now I have to redo that. Ubuntu went way too far. Hope this will be honestly considered a bug and fixed. V. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: The google custom search - perhaps it went there by itself?
The fact that there is nobody willing to reply (I posted a similar message one year ago, so this is certainly not a matter of time) can mean only two things: 1) on this list, nobody knows the answer. I think this is likely. Then, the custom search should be removed from firefox. Nobody knows why it is there. 2) someone knows, but they are ashamed to tell the truth. This is likely too. If you just want to adopt a marketing strategy, damnit, just admit it. The majority of users including myself will continue to use ubuntu. But why silence? This is really worrying. Vincenzo -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: The google custom search - perhaps it went there by itself?
The custom search is quite annoying and intrusive. I've resorted to using the binary download. dan --- Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Open Standards! On Sat, Jul 25, 2009 at 10:45 AM, Vincenzo Cianciacian...@di.unipi.it wrote: The fact that there is nobody willing to reply (I posted a similar message one year ago, so this is certainly not a matter of time) can mean only two things: 1) on this list, nobody knows the answer. I think this is likely. Then, the custom search should be removed from firefox. Nobody knows why it is there. 2) someone knows, but they are ashamed to tell the truth. This is likely too. If you just want to adopt a marketing strategy, damnit, just admit it. The majority of users including myself will continue to use ubuntu. But why silence? This is really worrying. Vincenzo -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: The google custom search
On Fri, 2009-07-24 at 07:34 +0200, Vincenzo Ciancia wrote: Dear all, today I noticed that the consistency problem between the default ubuntu start page, which is a custom google search, and the search box at the top-right of firefox, has finally been solved. Now also the search box is a custom search. Not sure if this is what you are writing about, but you will probably want to read it: http://www.asoftsite.org/s9y/archives/162-What-is-this-Multisearch-thing-in-my-Firefox-about.html -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: The google custom search
Il 25/07/2009 17:55, Mario Vukelic ha scritto: Not sure if this is what you are writing about, but you will probably want to read it: http://www.asoftsite.org/s9y/archives/162-What-is-this-Multisearch-thing-in-my-Firefox-about.html Dear Mario, unfortunately this is not what I am talking about. The multisearch is an experimental feature. But the google custom search has been there since hardy. There is a lot of confusion about the two things. I would like to learn about the google custom search in the default page, and ideally would like to see a short text and a link in that page, that informs users they are not searching with google but with a custom search. I am really asking for a very small effort from the ubuntu mozilla team. I now emailed them directly. Vincenzo -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: The google custom search - perhaps it went there by itself?
Il 25/07/2009 17:36, dan ha scritto: The custom search is quite annoying and intrusive. I've resorted to using the binary download. Me too, but my concern is: is it worth to continue pushing ubuntu among my friends and colleagues, if they pass over such an issue without commenting? I do not want to look like I appreciate this situation which does not recall free software at all. V. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: The google custom search - perhaps it went there by itself?
Op zaterdag 25-07-2009 om 11:36 uur [tijdzone -0400], schreef dan: The custom search is quite annoying and intrusive. I've resorted to using the binary download. Eh, you know that you can add/remove whatever search engine you want, don't you? -- Jan Claeys -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: The google custom search - perhaps it went there by itself?
Yes, the search is poorly done. It looks bad. It's a simple tool on Google available to anybody to make a branded search engine and make money from it. What is trying to be done though, isn't unprecedented. The simplest and most relevant example to pull off the top of my head is Mozilla having a long-running deal with Google[1] whereby they receive $millions for people using Firefox's search area to use Google. If I could search Google without it looking like a sty (much like the Firefox-Google deal permits), I'd be more than happy for Canonical to make a few quid from me using Ubuntu. If anything this is what Canonical *should*be doing to make their cash. Transparently implemented, non-binding service agreements that the user can opt out of without any trouble. Canonical should talk directly to Google and come up with some arrangement... But Mozilla may kick up a fuss as could lose out. [1]: http://www.techcrunch.com/2008/08/28/mozilla-extends-lucrative-deal-with-google-for-3-years/ -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: The google custom search - clarification
I see that there are open bugs in launchpad about the google custom search, mostly related to the multisearch add-on. This is said to be in testing. But my e-mail is about the default firefox home page, and the necessity to push a google custom search anyways. The default page was the custom search at least in jaunty, so my e-mail has NOTHING to do with testing. This will save the list from a lot of noise I hope. Vincenzo -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: The google custom search
2009/7/24 Vincenzo Ciancia cian...@di.unipi.it: Dear all, today I noticed that the consistency problem between the default ubuntu start page, which is a custom google search, and the search box at the top-right of firefox, has finally been solved. Now also the search box is a custom search. I already tried to raise the problem that average users are not so expert to know what a custom search is, but they will certainly notice that googe in linux does not work as in windows since google will not show maps, images, and do conversions on the fly in the custom search. There is also the problem that localization is currently broken in ALL ubuntu installations except english speaking, since localised results are not returned, hence ubuntu will return english results first to my italian-only speaking mother (well she speaks some spanish, and latin too, but this does not change the problem). In the past, silence was the main answer. What I would prefer is 1) clarificaition on why this is needed, since it seems mostly a trick, and 2) some effort in localization, and in using all the google goodies by default, maps, images, conversions. Images and videos may even be questionable, even if I would rather not use google if e.g. finding inappropriate content is a concern, but maps and conversions are useful tools and people uses those every day. But if 1) and 2) can't be achieved, at least an explanation on why there are no links in the default search page (and maybe in the results) explaining what a custom search is, would be appreciated. Given that users certainly may not know what a custom search is (e.g. even if I am a computer scientist, and worked in the IT, I did not care about custom searches until ubuntu started giving me strange results), educating them by putting in-place documentation, in the form of a short sentence and a link, would be appropriate. I can understand that a custom search may bring money to canonical (correct me if I am wrong, as I said I did not care about custom searches until very recently). I think the majority of users would be happy to be able to help ubuntu by just searching the web. However, they should be made aware of the choice, instead of silently tricked into the system. Vincenzo -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss Hello, I'm curious about this as well. I guess the custom search is used because otherwise it couldn't be included in the Ubuntu Start Page and the quick search was adapted for the sake of consistency. But why are there two different custom searches? (c) and (d) Kind regards, -- Sense Hofstede http://qense.nl/ PS: Sorry for sending it only to Vincenzo first. PPS: I mean karmic, it turned out Vincenzo meant jaunty. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
