Re: Removal of PulseAudio from Ubuntu
On Fri, May 14, 2010 at 6:53 PM, I.E.G. wrote: > Sorry for the rambling , non technical dissertation but I felt we the > users(if I dare speak for more than myself) needed to be heard . For a long time I have felt that there is an artificial disconnect between "users" and "developers". Since when are developers not users? Of course people want things to Just Work and will choose the path of least resistance, but it's worth pointing out that in the case of Linux audio the paths are neither straight nor understandable. In the case of stuttering audio on modern laptops and desktops, a fix was committed upstream last Tuesday. It may be integrated into Lucid's kernel after sufficient testing. Certainly it will land for Maverick. The best path forward is to file a bug against the alsa-driver source package in Launchpad so that we have your specific hardware information to effect workarounds and/or fixes. Best, -Dan -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Removal of PulseAudio from Ubuntu
On Fri, May 14, 2010 at 3:53 PM, I.E.G. wrote: > … > Gentlemen and Ladies I have not had any success in total or in part with > PulseAudio . I have had a single trip to youtube for instance inactivate all > audio on my system(s) . I have had VLC not only fail to produce any audio > but seg_fault . I have experienced the aforementioned halting stutter and > "latency" in web stream , VLC , MoviePlayer and asterisk based softphones . > Suffice to say I didn't bother fixing or configuring it I just found the > least path of resistance to audio and deleted , disabled or otherwise worked > around it . I still to this moment as a step in installation of even, Lucid > stop just after all updates are installed and find some way to eradicate > PulseAudio. > > I just thought a response from the every day user (since 6.04) that has no > political nor development agenda might have some small use . If it works I > use it . If it doesn't I google it . If google turns up dissension and > wildly conflicting oping as to the cause of the malfunction I punt on third > down and in this case revert to ALSA which I have had success with . > … I may be misunderstanding you here, but when was the last Ubuntu release where you gave Pulse a try before removing it? It sounds like you were very very quick to do so with Lucid. However, things have changed a lot lately (given that PulseAudio is being developed extremely actively). The software works considerably better in Lucid than it did in Karmic. Dylan -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Removal of PulseAudio from Ubuntu
Great can you please provide a detailed bug report that points to this actually being Pulseaudio then it can be resolved. Thank you On Fri, 2010-05-14 at 15:53 -0700, I.E.G. wrote: > By introduction I'm a hack of a user and not all that aware of the ins > and outs of posting to this list let alone the development , > configuration , and liabilities of PulseAudio . None of that is the > point of my attempting to post . (we'll see if this works ) . > > I have gone out of my way to search for methods to remove and or > disable PluseAudio . My first attempt removed the entire Gnome desktop > through my own inattention. You may have seen like cases where > "packages to be removed" in synaptic includes the gnome desktop and > dummies like me click through . Oh well lesson learned . Subsequent > efforts to disable and or remove PulseAudio have been more successful > and far less traumatic because I am able to RTFM and learn from > mistakes . I however am something more than a casual plug and play > user . I am competent if not occasionally dangerous at the command > line . I have skills acquired in the early days of *BSD and Solaris . > I am not afraid to tinker . > > I am stating this history to make the point that for a common user > that barely knows what a bug report is let alone files one .. > Is a plug and play(pray) new Ubuntu user as an alternative to M$ and > just wants it to work > is capable of understanding the GUI and using software sources and > synaptic as well as the update manager > and can regularly tie their own shoes with out undo help . > > Gentlemen and Ladies I have not had any success in total or in part > with PulseAudio . I have had a single trip to youtube for instance > inactivate all audio on my system(s) . I have had VLC not only fail to > produce any audio but seg_fault . I have experienced the > aforementioned halting stutter and "latency" in web stream , VLC , > MoviePlayer and asterisk based softphones . > Suffice to say I didn't bother fixing or configuring it I just found > the least path of resistance to audio and deleted , disabled or > otherwise worked around it . I still to this moment as a step in > installation of even, Lucid stop just after all updates are installed > and find some way to eradicate PulseAudio. > > I just thought a response from the every day user (since 6.04) that > has no political nor development agenda might have some small use . If > it works I use it . If it doesn't I google it . If google turns up > dissension and wildly conflicting oping as to the cause of the > malfunction I punt on third down and in this case revert to ALSA which > I have had success with . > > Sorry for the rambling , non technical dissertation but I felt we the > users(if I dare speak for more than myself) needed to be heard . > > Thank You all for your time and patience > > ~Dennis > > one of these days I will have an internet connection faster than my > computer -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Removal of PulseAudio from Ubuntu
By introduction I'm a hack of a user and not all that aware of the ins and outs of posting to this list let alone the development , configuration , and liabilities of PulseAudio . None of that is the point of my attempting to post . (we'll see if this works ) . I have gone out of my way to search for methods to remove and or disable PluseAudio . My first attempt removed the entire Gnome desktop through my own inattention. You may have seen like cases where "packages to be removed" in synaptic includes the gnome desktop and dummies like me click through . Oh well lesson learned . Subsequent efforts to disable and or remove PulseAudio have been more successful and far less traumatic because I am able to RTFM and learn from mistakes . I however am something more than a casual plug and play user . I am competent if not occasionally dangerous at the command line . I have skills acquired in the early days of *BSD and Solaris . I am not afraid to tinker . I am stating this history to make the point that for a common user that barely knows what a bug report is let alone files one .. Is a plug and play(pray) new Ubuntu user as an alternative to M$ and just wants it to work is capable of understanding the GUI and using software sources and synaptic as well as the update manager and can regularly tie their own shoes with out undo help . Gentlemen and Ladies I have not had any success in total or in part with PulseAudio . I have had a single trip to youtube for instance inactivate all audio on my system(s) . I have had VLC not only fail to produce any audio but seg_fault . I have experienced the aforementioned halting stutter and "latency" in web stream , VLC , MoviePlayer and asterisk based softphones . Suffice to say I didn't bother fixing or configuring it I just found the least path of resistance to audio and deleted , disabled or otherwise worked around it . I still to this moment as a step in installation of even, Lucid stop just after all updates are installed and find some way to eradicate PulseAudio. I just thought a response from the every day user (since 6.04) that has no political nor development agenda might have some small use . If it works I use it . If it doesn't I google it . If google turns up dissension and wildly conflicting oping as to the cause of the malfunction I punt on third down and in this case revert to ALSA which I have had success with . Sorry for the rambling , non technical dissertation but I felt we the users(if I dare speak for more than myself) needed to be heard . Thank You all for your time and patience ~Dennis one of these days I will have an internet connection faster than my computer -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Removal of PulseAudio from Ubuntu
On Thu, May 13, 2010 at 1:16 PM, Darren Albers wrote: > For what it is worth add me to the list of people happy with > PulseAudio. In my opinion we are better off fixing the remaining > issues than ripping it out and replacing it with something else. And on that note, I have performed a trivial update of allegro4.2. You can find the package here: https://launchpad.net/~chogydan/+archive/gnome-session/ I tested with opensonic and open-invaders. Gets the sound working. Someone should probably do a more formal update request with ubuntu/debian. Regarding this discussion, I think it would make sense that in the future when someone else complains about pulseaudio being in Ubuntu, we should ask for bug reports. Dan -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Removal of PulseAudio from Ubuntu
For what it is worth add me to the list of people happy with PulseAudio. In my opinion we are better off fixing the remaining issues than ripping it out and replacing it with something else. It feels like this is a case of the few having issues and the resulting noise distracting from a real success. This is not to diminish their frustrations since those are legit but threads like this do not solve anything. On 5/12/10, Flávio Etrusco wrote: > On Wed, May 12, 2010 at 3:38 AM, Luke Yelavich wrote: >> On Wed, May 12, 2010 at 06:06:10AM CEST, Shentino wrote: >>> Also, I question the wisdom of having audio specific bluetooth support. >>> >>> My hunches tell me that a proper bluetooth support layer would be better. >> >> What do you mean by proper bluetooth support layer? We already have that, >> and it does a good job of managing bluetooth. While it is possible to use >> bluetooth devices with ALSA, there is no good UI for managing this easily, >> and the interface itslf is clunky. PulseAudio elps a lot by talking >> directly to bluez, the support layer for bluetooth. It is then very easy >> to use bluetooth devices from a user perspective, with a good UI to manage >> things. >> >> Luke > > Ditto. > PulseAudio developers and maintainers maintain (oops) that sound > skipping now is almost always caused be alsa driver issues and these > will be fleshed out - and I tend to agree. > I used to be a big PA hater, but now it's working beautifully for all > but one machine I've tried. (And bluetooth support is fantastic) > Will we just stop this thread, please? > > Best regards, > Flávio > > -- > Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list > Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com > Modify settings or unsubscribe at: > https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss > -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Removal of PulseAudio from Ubuntu
On Wed, May 12, 2010 at 3:38 AM, Luke Yelavich wrote: > On Wed, May 12, 2010 at 06:06:10AM CEST, Shentino wrote: >> Also, I question the wisdom of having audio specific bluetooth support. >> >> My hunches tell me that a proper bluetooth support layer would be better. > > What do you mean by proper bluetooth support layer? We already have that, and > it does a good job of managing bluetooth. While it is possible to use > bluetooth devices with ALSA, there is no good UI for managing this easily, > and the interface itslf is clunky. PulseAudio elps a lot by talking directly > to bluez, the support layer for bluetooth. It is then very easy to use > bluetooth devices from a user perspective, with a good UI to manage things. > > Luke Ditto. PulseAudio developers and maintainers maintain (oops) that sound skipping now is almost always caused be alsa driver issues and these will be fleshed out - and I tend to agree. I used to be a big PA hater, but now it's working beautifully for all but one machine I've tried. (And bluetooth support is fantastic) Will we just stop this thread, please? Best regards, Flávio -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Removal of PulseAudio from Ubuntu
On Wed, May 12, 2010 at 06:06:10AM CEST, Shentino wrote: > Also, I question the wisdom of having audio specific bluetooth support. > > My hunches tell me that a proper bluetooth support layer would be better. What do you mean by proper bluetooth support layer? We already have that, and it does a good job of managing bluetooth. While it is possible to use bluetooth devices with ALSA, there is no good UI for managing this easily, and the interface itslf is clunky. PulseAudio elps a lot by talking directly to bluez, the support layer for bluetooth. It is then very easy to use bluetooth devices from a user perspective, with a good UI to manage things. Luke -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Removal of PulseAudio from Ubuntu
Also, I question the wisdom of having audio specific bluetooth support. My hunches tell me that a proper bluetooth support layer would be better. 2010/5/11 Shentino > I would just like to throw my two cents in and express my own disapproval > of PulseAudio. > > It's clunky and hard to configure, and personally I think it rather tries > to do too much at once, and by so doing is latent. > > I would not miss it if it were removed from Ubuntu in favor of something > more simple. > > 2010/5/7 Flávio Etrusco > > On Fri, May 7, 2010 at 9:21 PM, Chris Jones >> wrote: >> > >> > >>Date: Thu, 6 May 2010 20:17:04 -0400 >> > >>From: Daniel Chen >> > >> >> > >>(Grr, Android mail clients) >> > >> >> > >>Have you filed a bug report against the alsa-driver source (or >> alsa-base >> > >>binary) package? >> > >> >> > >> > Why on earth would I file a bug for alsa-driver when alsa is the driver >> that is working. Pulse is what I'm having issues with. Perhaps you >> misread/misunderstood my post. >> >> I had this conversation with Daniel in pvt. Well, with a somewhat >> different words ;-) >> >> > On May 6, 2010 8:52 PM, "Flávio Etrusco" >> wrote: >> >> If VLC is working with the ALSA emulation, isn't it more likely a bug >> >> in the VLC plugin for PA? >> >> > It is no more or less likely. For hardware bugs, you start at the bottom >> of the >> > stack for debugging, not the top. The fact that early requests mode >> works >> > implies that the buffering semantics are incorrect, which could be the >> > pulse output plugin for vlc *or* the driver. >> >> Actually, it was a stupid question on my part. VLC is working fine in >> my desktop and notebook so, indeed, it may/must be related to the >> "real" alsa driver. >> >> Best regards, >> Flávio >> >> -- >> Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list >> Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com >> Modify settings or unsubscribe at: >> https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss >> > > -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Removal of PulseAudio from Ubuntu
I would just like to throw my two cents in and express my own disapproval of PulseAudio. It's clunky and hard to configure, and personally I think it rather tries to do too much at once, and by so doing is latent. I would not miss it if it were removed from Ubuntu in favor of something more simple. 2010/5/7 Flávio Etrusco > On Fri, May 7, 2010 at 9:21 PM, Chris Jones > wrote: > > > > >>Date: Thu, 6 May 2010 20:17:04 -0400 > > >>From: Daniel Chen > > >> > > >>(Grr, Android mail clients) > > >> > > >>Have you filed a bug report against the alsa-driver source (or > alsa-base > > >>binary) package? > > >> > > > > Why on earth would I file a bug for alsa-driver when alsa is the driver > that is working. Pulse is what I'm having issues with. Perhaps you > misread/misunderstood my post. > > I had this conversation with Daniel in pvt. Well, with a somewhat > different words ;-) > > > On May 6, 2010 8:52 PM, "Flávio Etrusco" > wrote: > >> If VLC is working with the ALSA emulation, isn't it more likely a bug > >> in the VLC plugin for PA? > > > It is no more or less likely. For hardware bugs, you start at the bottom > of the > > stack for debugging, not the top. The fact that early requests mode works > > implies that the buffering semantics are incorrect, which could be the > > pulse output plugin for vlc *or* the driver. > > Actually, it was a stupid question on my part. VLC is working fine in > my desktop and notebook so, indeed, it may/must be related to the > "real" alsa driver. > > Best regards, > Flávio > > -- > Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list > Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com > Modify settings or unsubscribe at: > https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss > -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Removal of PulseAudio from Ubuntu
On Fri, May 7, 2010 at 9:21 PM, Chris Jones wrote: > > >>Date: Thu, 6 May 2010 20:17:04 -0400 > >>From: Daniel Chen > >> > >>(Grr, Android mail clients) > >> > >>Have you filed a bug report against the alsa-driver source (or alsa-base > >>binary) package? > >> > > Why on earth would I file a bug for alsa-driver when alsa is the driver that > is working. Pulse is what I'm having issues with. Perhaps you > misread/misunderstood my post. I had this conversation with Daniel in pvt. Well, with a somewhat different words ;-) > On May 6, 2010 8:52 PM, "Flávio Etrusco" wrote: >> If VLC is working with the ALSA emulation, isn't it more likely a bug >> in the VLC plugin for PA? > It is no more or less likely. For hardware bugs, you start at the bottom of > the > stack for debugging, not the top. The fact that early requests mode works > implies that the buffering semantics are incorrect, which could be the > pulse output plugin for vlc *or* the driver. Actually, it was a stupid question on my part. VLC is working fine in my desktop and notebook so, indeed, it may/must be related to the "real" alsa driver. Best regards, Flávio -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
RE: Removal of PulseAudio from Ubuntu
>>Date: Thu, 6 May 2010 20:17:04 -0400 >>From: Daniel Chen >> >>(Grr, Android mail clients) >> >>Have you filed a bug report against the alsa-driver source (or alsa-base >>binary) package? >> Why on earth would I file a bug for alsa-driver when alsa is the driver that is working. Pulse is what I'm having issues with. Perhaps you misread/misunderstood my post. -- Chris Jones Photographic Imaging Professional and Graphic Designer ABN: 98 317 740 240 Photo Resolutions Web: http://photoresolutions.freehostia.com Email: -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Removal of PulseAudio from Ubuntu
> > My experiences are from Karmic not Hardy. It is pathetic that these > problems were still there after a year and a half. The fact that the > OpenSonic FAQs have removing PulseAudio as a recommandation (though > there is an involved workaround involving editing text files if you > want to keep PulseAudio) suggests that this is a wide-spread problem. > It is likely faced mostly by new users, the very people who won't > speak up, as most Linux developers and long time users have likely > given up on running games (including emulators) on Linux. I know this > is the case with several users I have spoken too. They have accepted > that it just does not work, and that is sad. > This is the case but only because projects choose not to upgrade to something more compatible. Many of the issues stem from poorly integrated SDL features that just make things fail, even with pasuspender. They cite the following reason that you've given: > Games need lower-level access to the sound hardware then PulseAudio ever > can provide. > The problem is, this is just a plain lie. For all its faults, latency is * not* an issue with PulseAudio for anybody but recording studios. The proof? All the native and emulated games (and apps) that work perfectly with PulseAudio.. There are lots. Fact is, your wish won't be granted. At least not until there's something completely feature compatible with PA because Shuttleworth wants per-application volume controls on every window. You can't do that with something like OSS4, at least, not without a huge battle. At this stage, it's easier to fix the broken things than it is overhauling the entire thing. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: RE: Removal of PulseAudio from Ubuntu
(Grr, Android mail clients) Have you filed a bug report against the alsa-driver source (or alsa-base binary) package? On May 6, 2010 8:11 PM, "Chris Jones" wrote: Since upgrading to Lucid, I can no longer use Pulse audio with VLC as it skips beyond use. I have to configure VLC to putput to ALSA as an alternative which works perfectly. Up until Lucid's release, I've had no real big issues with Pulseaudio. -- Chris Jones Photographic Imaging Professional and Graphic Designer ABN: 98 317 740 240 Photo Resolutions Web: http://photoresolutions.freehostia.com Email: -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: RE: Removal of PulseAudio from Ubuntu
On May 6, 2010 8:11 PM, "Chris Jones" wrote: Since upgrading to Lucid, I can no longer use Pulse audio with VLC as it skips beyond use. I have to configure VLC to putput to ALSA as an alternative which works perfectly. Up until Lucid's release, I've had no real big issues with Pulseaudio. -- Chris Jones Photographic Imaging Professional and Graphic Designer ABN: 98 317 740 240 Photo Resolutions Web: http://photoresolutions.freehostia.com Email: -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
RE: Removal of PulseAudio from Ubuntu
Since upgrading to Lucid, I can no longer use Pulse audio with VLC as it skips beyond use. I have to configure VLC to putput to ALSA as an alternative which works perfectly. Up until Lucid's release, I've had no real big issues with Pulseaudio. -- Chris Jones Photographic Imaging Professional and Graphic Designer ABN: 98 317 740 240 Photo Resolutions Web: http://photoresolutions.freehostia.com Email: -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Removal of PulseAudio from Ubuntu
On Thu, 2010-05-06 at 22:05 +0200, Mario Vukelic wrote: > I did question whether Skype will work on your distro, I did *not* question .. Sorry. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Removal of PulseAudio from Ubuntu
On Thu, 2010-05-06 at 02:27 -0400, Ryan Oram wrote: > Skype will work on infinityOS and on any audio system that I propose > Ubuntu should adopt. Skype works fully on the pure ALSA system > employed currently by infinityOS as I use it personally. I did question whether Skype will work on your distro, but intended to use it as a popular example application that many users will want a bluetooth headset for. And even if other systems are really better, it does not change the fact that many people use bluetooth. > I highly suggest, based > on my own personal experience, that you do not deploy Bluetooth > headsets at your workplace. We are sometimes not stupid :) and of course are testing before we deploy. 150 users at the helpdesk have been using bluetooth headsets for months without encountering significant amounts of the issues you describe. > Bluetooth support will be in what ever audio layer infinityOS uses (or > anything I support Ubuntu to use) or at the very least be on the > roadmap. Game support is, however, just a plain higher priority, as it > is required by home users You are of course free to prioritize in your distro any way you want, I just don't buy that it's clear cut that games are a higher priority than simple bluetooth audio connectivity. Also games are required by *some* home users. And in fact not that many people play sophisticated PC games, believe it or not. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Removal of PulseAudio from Ubuntu
On Thu, May 6, 2010 at 1:19 AM, Ryan Oram wrote: > Until the implementation of OSS4 is ready and tested, infinityOS will > continue to use pure ALSA. How will you determine that "the implementation of OSS4 is ready and tested?" Best, -Dan -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Removal of PulseAudio from Ubuntu
On Thu, 6 May 2010 00:58:36 -0400, Ryan Oram wrote: > > I apologize if I was frank, but problem with PulseAudio is that it > does not always work with existing code. > Yes, this is true. But again, the problem is with the existing code, not PulseAudio. If we are going to simply give up whenever new code breaks existing broken code, I don't know how we are going to meet the challenge of keeping up with Windows and Mac OS X. > Before OSS4 is implemented in infinityOS, I will make sure that > everything works out of the box with the OSS4 audio system. I still don't understand why you would think that OSS4 is going to be able to deliver the same functionality as PulseAudio without the bug burden. But, as others have said, feel free to try it in your own distribution. - Ben -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Removal of PulseAudio from Ubuntu
>On Thu, 2010-05-06 at 05:54 +, Mario Vukelic wrote: >Many companies are switching their internal phone systems to VoIP. The >company I work for (15,000 seats, half of the users mobile with laptops) >just finished this transition, and the next step will be a migration to >PC-based phones for those who prefer it. Bluetooth headsets, certainly. > >Also, there is this little application called Skype that I hear people >are using. > >I don't see the point of the false dichotomy "either bluetooth headset >support *or* proper game support", either. I do not own a traditional phone and use Skype to make all of my calls. The $3 a month plan is god send compared to traditional POTS service for a starving student. Skype will work on infinityOS and on any audio system that I propose Ubuntu should adopt. Skype works fully on the pure ALSA system employed currently by infinityOS as I use it personally. However, Bluetooth headsets are a giant mess. I bought a Nokia one to use with my computer and it was always a pain to get working and connected (this was on Mac OS X and Windows). I highly suggest, based on my own personal experience, that you do not deploy Bluetooth headsets at your workplace. Bluetooth is a half-baked technology that barely works when it does work. Hell, half the time your headset will randomly decide to connect to your phone instead of your computer for an arbitrary reason. Bluetooth support will be in what ever audio layer infinityOS uses (or anything I support Ubuntu to use) or at the very least be on the roadmap. Game support is, however, just a plain higher priority, as it is required by home users while you can choose to use a different headset (such as USB or RF wireless) to work better on Linux (or just plain work better in general, Bluetooth is nothing but problems). Ryan -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Removal of PulseAudio from Ubuntu
On Thu, May 6, 2010 at 1:08 AM, Daniel Chen wrote: > Such is the pain of new code. We face this continually in ALSA and > PulseAudio alike, and I don't see how any new framework can be devoid > of such pain. Until the implementation of OSS4 is ready and tested, infinityOS will continue to use pure ALSA. > What are your test plans for forward compatibility (which is the > single largest pain for ALSA)? We will track Ubuntu and Debian development and make changes to our implementation to maintain compatibility. If this is determined to not be possible, we will stick with ALSA. > Leaving aside the nontrivial decision of selecting which PPAs to > maintain compatibility with, it's worth noting that you'll be facing a > moving target. Which Ubuntu releases do you intend to support in terms > of compatibility? Right now, infinityOS 1.0 Marvin is binary compatible with Karmic. We will be looking to move over to the Lucid codebase in two months with infinityOS 2.0 Zaphod. Maverick will likely be skipped because of the late release schedule with Zaphod and that Ubuntu will likely be moving to Gnome 3.0 with Maverick, a move that will likely comprise stability in upstream for the short-term. We are seriously considering only maintaining binary compatibility with every other Ubuntu release (including each LTS), but we'll see how things go. Thanks, Ryan -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Removal of PulseAudio from Ubuntu
On Thu, May 6, 2010 at 12:58 AM, Ryan Oram wrote: > I apologize if I was frank, but problem with PulseAudio is that it > does not always work with existing code. Such is the pain of new code. We face this continually in ALSA and PulseAudio alike, and I don't see how any new framework can be devoid of such pain. > Before OSS4 is implemented in infinityOS, I will make sure that > everything works out of the box with the OSS4 audio system. It will be What are your test plans for forward compatibility (which is the single largest pain for ALSA)? > subject to a considerable amount of testing. This is partly to > maintain 100% binary compatibility with Ubuntu. I wish for infinityOS > to continue to work with the Ubuntu repos and PPAs as I feel > duplication of effort is unnecessary. Leaving aside the nontrivial decision of selecting which PPAs to maintain compatibility with, it's worth noting that you'll be facing a moving target. Which Ubuntu releases do you intend to support in terms of compatibility? Finally, maintaining 100% compatibility is unrealistic. By virtue of using OSS instead of ALSA, you've already increased the test surface enormously such that you'll need to modify certain base packages (if you intend to do things in a manner consistent with Debian Policy). Best, -Dan -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Removal of PulseAudio from Ubuntu
On Thu, May 6, 2010 at 12:46 AM, Daniel Chen wrote: > On Wed, May 5, 2010 at 7:13 PM, Ryan Oram wrote: >> It is 2 years old, but the facts in the article above are still >> completely true. PulseAudio has made essentially zero progress in the >> last 2 years, which is why it should be abandoned. > > I feel I am at least somewhat qualified to speak on this subject, > having been involved in the (ill?) integration of PA in Ubuntu many > releases ago and for x86 driver quirking many years prior and since. > > "Zero progress" really is stunningly ill-informed. Yes, there remain > problems with BIOS vendors, mainboard integrators, audio drivers, > alsa-lib, PulseAudio, application integration, and so on, but to claim > zero progress for any part of the audio stack is quite off the mark. > The fact of the matter is that audio deficiencies in any popular Linux > distribution raise polemics, none of which is truly on-mark. Perhaps I > can do a better job of documenting efforts to combat deficiencies, so > this thread is as good a place as any to continue. > > Put another way: there are plenty people who decry the sinkhole, but > who's actually fixing the structural problems that led to the > sinkhole? > > For the past ten years I have seen similar cycles of specifications > being published (along with errata) and OEMs leaping to implement > attractive features at the expense of doing a good job documenting > their quirks (much less implementing standard quirk interfaces -- and > vendors of usb components are only slightly less worse than pci > components). This leads to spaghetti code in audio drivers, some of > which are marginally less hair-loss-inducing than others. The > traditional ALSA driver semantics are interrupt-based. PulseAudio, > with its emphasis on preventing excessive power consumption through > timer-based buffering, expects the underlying driver to duly provide > precise and accurate information. For the past three years this > approach has utterly destroyed any semblance of "stability" in the > audio stack -- for good reason: the drivers incorrectly assumed the > underlying hardware duly acted precisely and accurately. We've been > fixing these drivers as such symptoms appear, and we're by no means > finished -- nor do I expect we'll ever reach such a milestone. > > What happens when you have hardware or a driver that acts imprecisely > and/or inaccurately? You get some utterly disappointing results as > exposed through PulseAudio's glitch-free (standard in Karmic and > Lucid) mode. Does this mean that PA is faultless? Of course not; we > should do a better job, among many things, by reverting to the > traditional interrupt mode. Does this mean that the driver should be > fixed? Absolutely. Does replacing ALSA wholesale with OSS resolve the > issue? No; we'd only replace one problem domain with another, and we'd > still need to maintain all versions with ALSA support *and* continue > forward with hardware enablement. This means that you now have to sets > of mouths to feed. Various upstream developers of programs > incorporated in Ubuntu don't necessarily address the complexities of > having *supported* derivatives that deviate from Ubuntu's base, and > this issue is particularly telling with respect to the audio stack. > > Canonical has/will recently brought/bring on board knowledgeable audio > hackers. I expect the situation to improve, not worsen. While I > applaud your efforts to bring a more usable audio experience > out-of-box to casual users, I cannot help but muse that our > (volunteer) efforts are better spent improving parts of the stack that > most need help: ALSA driver and either PulseAudio or Jack Audio > Connection Kit. > >> Open up any emulator program on Ubuntu and it will skip like mad. Same >> with many native games such as Lincity-ng or OpenSonic. This is as >> most games on Linux depend on sound timing, which the high latency >> nature of PulseAudio messes up. > > PA is happy to grant high latency by default because doing so is more > friendly to lower power consumption. Various pulse clients (whether > frameworks like SDL or OpenAL-soft) have been fixed to properly > specify latency requirements and act accordingly. > > I cannot emphasize enough the need to fix the underlying drivers. > >> A good possible solution would be switching to OSS4 and writing an >> audio wrapper for it to make it easier for developers to use. OSS4 is >> much more simplistic and (arguably) cleaner designed then ALSA, which >> would likely made this an easier task. > > Your distribution seems like a great place to test such a hypothesis. > Please test backward compatibility with native ALSA and PulseAudio > applications, too! > > Best, > -Dan > I apologize if I was frank, but problem with PulseAudio is that it does not always work with existing code. Before OSS4 is implemented in infinityOS, I will make sure that everything works out of the box with the OSS4 audio system. It will be subject to a
Re: Removal of PulseAudio from Ubuntu
On Wed, 2010-05-05 at 20:49 -0400, Ryan Oram wrote: > How many users actually use Bluetooth headsets with their computers or > mute their browsers? > > I feel that being able to play games without having to edit text files > or install alternate packages is much important to the average user > then the above features. > > Chances are people who want to use Bluetooth headsets and to mute > browsers will know how to configure Linux to do so anyways. Many companies are switching their internal phone systems to VoIP. The company I work for (15,000 seats, half of the users mobile with laptops) just finished this transition, and the next step will be a migration to PC-based phones for those who prefer it. Bluetooth headsets, certainly. Also, there is this little application called Skype that I hear people are using. I don't see the point of the false dichotomy "either bluetooth headset support *or* proper game support", either. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Removal of PulseAudio from Ubuntu
On Wed, May 5, 2010 at 7:13 PM, Ryan Oram wrote: > It is 2 years old, but the facts in the article above are still > completely true. PulseAudio has made essentially zero progress in the > last 2 years, which is why it should be abandoned. I feel I am at least somewhat qualified to speak on this subject, having been involved in the (ill?) integration of PA in Ubuntu many releases ago and for x86 driver quirking many years prior and since. "Zero progress" really is stunningly ill-informed. Yes, there remain problems with BIOS vendors, mainboard integrators, audio drivers, alsa-lib, PulseAudio, application integration, and so on, but to claim zero progress for any part of the audio stack is quite off the mark. The fact of the matter is that audio deficiencies in any popular Linux distribution raise polemics, none of which is truly on-mark. Perhaps I can do a better job of documenting efforts to combat deficiencies, so this thread is as good a place as any to continue. Put another way: there are plenty people who decry the sinkhole, but who's actually fixing the structural problems that led to the sinkhole? For the past ten years I have seen similar cycles of specifications being published (along with errata) and OEMs leaping to implement attractive features at the expense of doing a good job documenting their quirks (much less implementing standard quirk interfaces -- and vendors of usb components are only slightly less worse than pci components). This leads to spaghetti code in audio drivers, some of which are marginally less hair-loss-inducing than others. The traditional ALSA driver semantics are interrupt-based. PulseAudio, with its emphasis on preventing excessive power consumption through timer-based buffering, expects the underlying driver to duly provide precise and accurate information. For the past three years this approach has utterly destroyed any semblance of "stability" in the audio stack -- for good reason: the drivers incorrectly assumed the underlying hardware duly acted precisely and accurately. We've been fixing these drivers as such symptoms appear, and we're by no means finished -- nor do I expect we'll ever reach such a milestone. What happens when you have hardware or a driver that acts imprecisely and/or inaccurately? You get some utterly disappointing results as exposed through PulseAudio's glitch-free (standard in Karmic and Lucid) mode. Does this mean that PA is faultless? Of course not; we should do a better job, among many things, by reverting to the traditional interrupt mode. Does this mean that the driver should be fixed? Absolutely. Does replacing ALSA wholesale with OSS resolve the issue? No; we'd only replace one problem domain with another, and we'd still need to maintain all versions with ALSA support *and* continue forward with hardware enablement. This means that you now have to sets of mouths to feed. Various upstream developers of programs incorporated in Ubuntu don't necessarily address the complexities of having *supported* derivatives that deviate from Ubuntu's base, and this issue is particularly telling with respect to the audio stack. Canonical has/will recently brought/bring on board knowledgeable audio hackers. I expect the situation to improve, not worsen. While I applaud your efforts to bring a more usable audio experience out-of-box to casual users, I cannot help but muse that our (volunteer) efforts are better spent improving parts of the stack that most need help: ALSA driver and either PulseAudio or Jack Audio Connection Kit. > Open up any emulator program on Ubuntu and it will skip like mad. Same > with many native games such as Lincity-ng or OpenSonic. This is as > most games on Linux depend on sound timing, which the high latency > nature of PulseAudio messes up. PA is happy to grant high latency by default because doing so is more friendly to lower power consumption. Various pulse clients (whether frameworks like SDL or OpenAL-soft) have been fixed to properly specify latency requirements and act accordingly. I cannot emphasize enough the need to fix the underlying drivers. > A good possible solution would be switching to OSS4 and writing an > audio wrapper for it to make it easier for developers to use. OSS4 is > much more simplistic and (arguably) cleaner designed then ALSA, which > would likely made this an easier task. Your distribution seems like a great place to test such a hypothesis. Please test backward compatibility with native ALSA and PulseAudio applications, too! Best, -Dan -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Removal of PulseAudio from Ubuntu
I want my distribution to work out of the box with existing code. PulseAudio does not, so it will not be included. It is Ubuntu/Canonical's choice which path they wish to take. This is not the first difference between infinityOS and Ubuntu. infinityOS uses a hybrid of Gnome and Xfce. I will keep in contact with upstream. There is no hard feelings. ;P Ryan On Wed, May 5, 2010 at 11:54 PM, Jonathan Blackhall wrote: > On Wed, May 5, 2010 at 10:32 PM, Ryan Oram wrote: >> I am seriously considering implementing OSS4 as an alternative to >> PulseAudio/ALSA in the next major version of infinityOS. I would like >> it if users of Ubuntu could have the same benefits in terms of >> functionality, but at the very least my users will have (and do have) >> a sound system that works out of the box for games. >> > > I have to reiterate what other people are saying. PA has been working > well for me at LEAST since Karmic, if not Jaunty or before. I was able > to buy World of Goo (for linux) and Portal (via Wine), and the sound > worked for both of them without any configuring. Not to mention that > I can chat on Skype with a bluetooth headset now. As Ben said, if > you're having a problem it sounds like there's a good chance it's on > the game's end. Just because one or a few games that you want aren't > working right, it doesn't mean we should throw out the whole system. > > Jonathan > -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Removal of PulseAudio from Ubuntu
I am seriously considering implementing OSS4 as an alternative to PulseAudio/ALSA in the next major version of infinityOS. I would like it if users of Ubuntu could have the same benefits in terms of functionality, but at the very least my users will have (and do have) a sound system that works out of the box for games. Ryan On Wed, May 5, 2010 at 11:28 PM, Ben Gamari wrote: > On Wed, 5 May 2010 21:52:25 -0400, Ryan Oram wrote: >> Emulators are a subset of games. They use the same libraries and >> frameworks. If they do not work, games will not likely not work. >> > If they do not work, it is more likely that the game is broken in its > usage of the underlying hardware than PulseAudio. PulseAudio does things > with audio that older (i.e. broken) applications do not expect. If there > are issues, this is probably the result of applications making invalid > assumptions about the nature of the underlying device (now > PulseAudio). > > Audio has worked perfectly on all my hardware with day-to-day > applications for the last several (>= 2) releases. Certainly, the > transition to PulseAudio was a little rough (which distributions deserve > a little blame for), but almost all of the issues have since been fixed, > even on broken hardware. Without PulseAudio, Ubuntu would be entirely > unable to compete with Windows or OS X on the basis of its audio > subsystem. > >> Besides, do I have to configure my sound system to play a game on >> Windows or Mac OS X? No. >> > No, if you have issues, bring it up with the game's/library's > upstream. If your game needs to be working today, use pasuspender as a > temporary workaround. But please, this discussion has been had dozens of > times before in various forms; PulseAudio is here to stay for the > benefit of us all. If you have issues, stop whining and help fix them. > > - Ben > -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Removal of PulseAudio from Ubuntu
On Wed, 5 May 2010 21:52:25 -0400, Ryan Oram wrote: > Emulators are a subset of games. They use the same libraries and > frameworks. If they do not work, games will not likely not work. > If they do not work, it is more likely that the game is broken in its usage of the underlying hardware than PulseAudio. PulseAudio does things with audio that older (i.e. broken) applications do not expect. If there are issues, this is probably the result of applications making invalid assumptions about the nature of the underlying device (now PulseAudio). Audio has worked perfectly on all my hardware with day-to-day applications for the last several (>= 2) releases. Certainly, the transition to PulseAudio was a little rough (which distributions deserve a little blame for), but almost all of the issues have since been fixed, even on broken hardware. Without PulseAudio, Ubuntu would be entirely unable to compete with Windows or OS X on the basis of its audio subsystem. > Besides, do I have to configure my sound system to play a game on > Windows or Mac OS X? No. > No, if you have issues, bring it up with the game's/library's upstream. If your game needs to be working today, use pasuspender as a temporary workaround. But please, this discussion has been had dozens of times before in various forms; PulseAudio is here to stay for the benefit of us all. If you have issues, stop whining and help fix them. - Ben -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Removal of PulseAudio from Ubuntu
> On Thu, 2010-05-06 at 01:34 +0100, > ubuntu-devel-discuss-request at lists.ubuntu.com wrote: > Pulseaudio has become considerably better since Ubuntu 8.04. Most > people's first exposure to Pulseaudio was in 8.04 and it was not a > pleasant experience. My experiences are from Karmic not Hardy. It is pathetic that these problems were still there after a year and a half. The fact that the OpenSonic FAQs have removing PulseAudio as a recommandation (though there is an involved workaround involving editing text files if you want to keep PulseAudio) suggests that this is a wide-spread problem. It is likely faced mostly by new users, the very people who won't speak up, as most Linux developers and long time users have likely given up on running games (including emulators) on Linux. I know this is the case with several users I have spoken too. They have accepted that it just does not work, and that is sad. I would be happy if these issues were solved in Lucid, as I have not given Lucid extensive testing, but this is highly unlikely as these problem seem to stem from design. Games need lower-level access to the sound hardware then PulseAudio ever can provide. This is the case with many apps as PulseAudio only support 70% of ALSA functions and routines by design. The library that was supposed implement the other 30%, Libsydney, never became more than vapourware. Games are one of the core applications used by your average user. If Ubuntu and furthermore Linux is ever adopted by the masses, games would have to work out of the box as on Windows and Mac OS X. No configuration should be necessary. Games should just work and currently they do not on distributions with PulseAudio. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Removal of PulseAudio from Ubuntu
On Thu, 2010-05-06 at 01:34 +0100, ubuntu-devel-discuss-requ...@lists.ubuntu.com wrote: > A great overview of the problems with PulseAudio: > http://www.webcitation.org/5kcZfOb4l > > It is 2 years old, but the facts in the article above are still > completely true. PulseAudio has made essentially zero progress in the > last 2 years, which is why it should be abandoned. Pulseaudio has become considerably better since Ubuntu 8.04. Most people's first exposure to Pulseaudio was in 8.04 and it was not a pleasant experience. > Open up any emulator program on Ubuntu and it will skip like mad. Same > with many native games such as Lincity-ng or OpenSonic. This is as > most games on Linux depend on sound timing, which the high latency > nature of PulseAudio messes up. Since when? I haven't played Lincity-ng, but I do play OpenSonic and it works fine with Pulseaudio. Come to think of it, I've been playing quite a few native Linux games without any audio problems. > I have already removed PulseAudio completely from my distribution > because I have found it greatly interferes with multimedia playback > and gaming. I have received no complaints from my users, in fact, many > of them have switched over to infinityOS specifically because I do not > include PulseAudio. The fact that I hadn't heard of your distribution before today indicates that Pulseaudio is not as common a problem as you think. Perhaps you can't remember how bad sound was for EVERYBODY before Pulseaudio came along? I've also been on Ubuntu Forums and seen the people there with sound troubles - someone always suggests removing Pulseaudio, the person tries it, and reports back that they are still having issues even on pure ALSA. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Removal of PulseAudio from Ubuntu
Emulators are a subset of games. They use the same libraries and frameworks. If they do not work, games will not likely not work. Besides, do I have to configure my sound system to play a game on Windows or Mac OS X? No. Why should I have to on Linux? Ryan On Wed, May 5, 2010 at 9:44 PM, Dmitrijs Ledkovs wrote: > On 6 May 2010 02:31, Ryan Oram wrote: >> On Wed, May 5, 2010 at 9:13 PM, Dmitrijs Ledkovs >> wrote: >>> Generalisation. I know plenty of people who play games and do not >>> know how to edit *plain* text files. >> >> In order to get most emulators (which at this point sadly are what > > what is an emulator? i play games on facebook & xbox. > >> people are going to be using to play games) and native games to work > > yofrankie works fine so does skype here. > >> on Ubuntu, you have to remove PulseAudio, install aoss and, if the >> emulator/games uses SDL, libsdl1.2debian-oss as SDL seems to have >> timing problems with ALSA (especially with games made using the >> Allegro library/toolkit). >> >> It is broken to the point that the OpenSonic FAQ recommends that you >> remove PulseAudio when installing. >> http://opensnc.sourceforge.net/wiki/index.php/FAQ#The_game_has_no_sound.21_.28Linux.29 >> > > you lost me at installing "emulator" i play games & listen music in my > kitchen. > >>> I don't know how to configure Linux to do that. I use the PA sliders. >>> Thanks to avahi I was able to stream music to my kitchen without >>> editing any textfiles. >>> >>> I would not be able to do this without PA. >> >> Is your average user is going to be streaming audio to his kitchen? >> > > In US & Canada a lot of people do. > >> I think Ubuntu should be focusing on getting its audio system to work >> out of the box for common usage situations. Playing native games and >> emulators is much more common usage situation then Bluetooth headsets >> (hell I gave mine up as it was much more of a pain on any OS then a >> corded/RF headset) and streaming audio to another computer. >> > > > We got streaming audio & bluetooth audio for free. I don't see any > "emulators" in ubuntu main so I don't understand why should it be a > focus for ubuntu. As for games the default set of games & more > advanced like yofrankie work fine. > > >> Less common situations can be addressed by FAQs and documentation. > > For me "emulators" is a niche situation. And so is for all of my > hosemates and family. Only a few of us are gamers and they use xbox. > >> Chances are if a user wants to stream audio to his kitchen or use a >> bluetooth headset, he will be looking online for documentation and >> help anyways. >> > > On Mac & Windows streaming audio and using bluetooth headsets is dead > simple using manufacturer cd (which everyone installs) and using > iTunes for streaming. > > Why should one look up documentation & help on Ubuntu when it's > painlessly done on a Mac? > > > How *easy* is it to setup "emulators" on windows? > >> A user will not expect to have to configure his audio system to play >> games. He will expect it to work by default. >> > > Default games work. > > > You have operating system already. Work on, it make it unique, profit. > >> Ryan >> >> -- >> Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list >> Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com >> Modify settings or unsubscribe at: >> https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss >> > -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Removal of PulseAudio from Ubuntu
On 6 May 2010 02:31, Ryan Oram wrote: > On Wed, May 5, 2010 at 9:13 PM, Dmitrijs Ledkovs > wrote: >> Generalisation. I know plenty of people who play games and do not >> know how to edit *plain* text files. > > In order to get most emulators (which at this point sadly are what what is an emulator? i play games on facebook & xbox. > people are going to be using to play games) and native games to work yofrankie works fine so does skype here. > on Ubuntu, you have to remove PulseAudio, install aoss and, if the > emulator/games uses SDL, libsdl1.2debian-oss as SDL seems to have > timing problems with ALSA (especially with games made using the > Allegro library/toolkit). > > It is broken to the point that the OpenSonic FAQ recommends that you > remove PulseAudio when installing. > http://opensnc.sourceforge.net/wiki/index.php/FAQ#The_game_has_no_sound.21_.28Linux.29 > you lost me at installing "emulator" i play games & listen music in my kitchen. >> I don't know how to configure Linux to do that. I use the PA sliders. >> Thanks to avahi I was able to stream music to my kitchen without >> editing any textfiles. >> >> I would not be able to do this without PA. > > Is your average user is going to be streaming audio to his kitchen? > In US & Canada a lot of people do. > I think Ubuntu should be focusing on getting its audio system to work > out of the box for common usage situations. Playing native games and > emulators is much more common usage situation then Bluetooth headsets > (hell I gave mine up as it was much more of a pain on any OS then a > corded/RF headset) and streaming audio to another computer. > We got streaming audio & bluetooth audio for free. I don't see any "emulators" in ubuntu main so I don't understand why should it be a focus for ubuntu. As for games the default set of games & more advanced like yofrankie work fine. > Less common situations can be addressed by FAQs and documentation. For me "emulators" is a niche situation. And so is for all of my hosemates and family. Only a few of us are gamers and they use xbox. > Chances are if a user wants to stream audio to his kitchen or use a > bluetooth headset, he will be looking online for documentation and > help anyways. > On Mac & Windows streaming audio and using bluetooth headsets is dead simple using manufacturer cd (which everyone installs) and using iTunes for streaming. Why should one look up documentation & help on Ubuntu when it's painlessly done on a Mac? How *easy* is it to setup "emulators" on windows? > A user will not expect to have to configure his audio system to play > games. He will expect it to work by default. > Default games work. You have operating system already. Work on, it make it unique, profit. > Ryan > > -- > Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list > Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com > Modify settings or unsubscribe at: > https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss > -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Removal of PulseAudio from Ubuntu
On Wed, May 5, 2010 at 9:13 PM, Dmitrijs Ledkovs wrote: > Generalisation. I know plenty of people who play games and do not > know how to edit *plain* text files. In order to get most emulators (which at this point sadly are what people are going to be using to play games) and native games to work on Ubuntu, you have to remove PulseAudio, install aoss and, if the emulator/games uses SDL, libsdl1.2debian-oss as SDL seems to have timing problems with ALSA (especially with games made using the Allegro library/toolkit). It is broken to the point that the OpenSonic FAQ recommends that you remove PulseAudio when installing. http://opensnc.sourceforge.net/wiki/index.php/FAQ#The_game_has_no_sound.21_.28Linux.29 > I don't know how to configure Linux to do that. I use the PA sliders. > Thanks to avahi I was able to stream music to my kitchen without > editing any textfiles. > > I would not be able to do this without PA. Is your average user is going to be streaming audio to his kitchen? I think Ubuntu should be focusing on getting its audio system to work out of the box for common usage situations. Playing native games and emulators is much more common usage situation then Bluetooth headsets (hell I gave mine up as it was much more of a pain on any OS then a corded/RF headset) and streaming audio to another computer. Less common situations can be addressed by FAQs and documentation. Chances are if a user wants to stream audio to his kitchen or use a bluetooth headset, he will be looking online for documentation and help anyways. A user will not expect to have to configure his audio system to play games. He will expect it to work by default. Ryan -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Removal of PulseAudio from Ubuntu
On 6 May 2010 01:49, Ryan Oram wrote: > How many users actually use Bluetooth headsets with their computers or > mute their browsers? > This one time in bandcamp when you fool around with a cool cellphone accessories > I feel that being able to play games without having to edit text files > or install alternate packages is much important to the average user > then the above features. > Generalisation. I know plenty of people who play games and do not know how to edit *plain* text files. > Chances are people who want to use Bluetooth headsets and to mute > browsers will know how to configure Linux to do so anyways. > I don't know how to configure Linux to do that. I use the PA sliders. Thanks to avahi I was able to stream music to my kitchen without editing any textfiles. I would not be able to do this without PA. > Thanks, > Ryan Oram > > On Wed, May 5, 2010 at 8:09 PM, Dylan McCall wrote: >> On Wed, May 5, 2010 at 4:13 PM, Ryan Oram wrote: >>> A great overview of the problems with PulseAudio: >>> http://www.webcitation.org/5kcZfOb4l >>> >>> It is 2 years old, but the facts in the article above are still >>> completely true. PulseAudio has made essentially zero progress in the >>> last 2 years, which is why it should be abandoned. >> >> I fail to see how diverging from upstream Gnome and switching audio >> systems AGAIN would solve any problems. As it is we have gained a lot >> from PulseAudio (eg: Bluetooth audio that we can actually expect end >> users to use), it is quite widely adopted and it is neatly integrated >> at this point. >> >> Now, granted, most things (gstreamer, canberra) are flexible and have >> (or could have) OSS4 support, but there is some significant energy >> required to swap these kinds of components. I think energy would be >> better spent sorting out the higher level APIs that application >> developers are actually meant to be using. We seem to have hundreds of >> these bouncing around, and they are all compatible with a different >> subset of audio frameworks. We can change underlying systems all we >> want, but those diagrams of the audio stack will still look awful >> because of all those libraries. >> >> You mention PulseAudio's high latency. I haven't followed this, but >> does anyone know what became of rtkit? Personally I've had an >> excellent audio experience in Lucid thus far (except for that funny >> issue with the balance slider and indicator-sound) and I believe rtkit >> has been merged into the kernel, but I could be mistaken about whether >> it's being used (or useful to begin with). >> >> Disclaimer: I'm also quite attached to positional event sounds :) >> >> >> Dylan >> > > -- > Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list > Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com > Modify settings or unsubscribe at: > https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss > -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Removal of PulseAudio from Ubuntu
How many users actually use Bluetooth headsets with their computers or mute their browsers? I feel that being able to play games without having to edit text files or install alternate packages is much important to the average user then the above features. Chances are people who want to use Bluetooth headsets and to mute browsers will know how to configure Linux to do so anyways. Thanks, Ryan Oram On Wed, May 5, 2010 at 8:09 PM, Dylan McCall wrote: > On Wed, May 5, 2010 at 4:13 PM, Ryan Oram wrote: >> A great overview of the problems with PulseAudio: >> http://www.webcitation.org/5kcZfOb4l >> >> It is 2 years old, but the facts in the article above are still >> completely true. PulseAudio has made essentially zero progress in the >> last 2 years, which is why it should be abandoned. > > I fail to see how diverging from upstream Gnome and switching audio > systems AGAIN would solve any problems. As it is we have gained a lot > from PulseAudio (eg: Bluetooth audio that we can actually expect end > users to use), it is quite widely adopted and it is neatly integrated > at this point. > > Now, granted, most things (gstreamer, canberra) are flexible and have > (or could have) OSS4 support, but there is some significant energy > required to swap these kinds of components. I think energy would be > better spent sorting out the higher level APIs that application > developers are actually meant to be using. We seem to have hundreds of > these bouncing around, and they are all compatible with a different > subset of audio frameworks. We can change underlying systems all we > want, but those diagrams of the audio stack will still look awful > because of all those libraries. > > You mention PulseAudio's high latency. I haven't followed this, but > does anyone know what became of rtkit? Personally I've had an > excellent audio experience in Lucid thus far (except for that funny > issue with the balance slider and indicator-sound) and I believe rtkit > has been merged into the kernel, but I could be mistaken about whether > it's being used (or useful to begin with). > > Disclaimer: I'm also quite attached to positional event sounds :) > > > Dylan > -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Removal of PulseAudio from Ubuntu
On Wed, May 5, 2010 at 4:13 PM, Ryan Oram wrote: > A great overview of the problems with PulseAudio: > http://www.webcitation.org/5kcZfOb4l > > It is 2 years old, but the facts in the article above are still > completely true. PulseAudio has made essentially zero progress in the > last 2 years, which is why it should be abandoned. I fail to see how diverging from upstream Gnome and switching audio systems AGAIN would solve any problems. As it is we have gained a lot from PulseAudio (eg: Bluetooth audio that we can actually expect end users to use), it is quite widely adopted and it is neatly integrated at this point. Now, granted, most things (gstreamer, canberra) are flexible and have (or could have) OSS4 support, but there is some significant energy required to swap these kinds of components. I think energy would be better spent sorting out the higher level APIs that application developers are actually meant to be using. We seem to have hundreds of these bouncing around, and they are all compatible with a different subset of audio frameworks. We can change underlying systems all we want, but those diagrams of the audio stack will still look awful because of all those libraries. You mention PulseAudio's high latency. I haven't followed this, but does anyone know what became of rtkit? Personally I've had an excellent audio experience in Lucid thus far (except for that funny issue with the balance slider and indicator-sound) and I believe rtkit has been merged into the kernel, but I could be mistaken about whether it's being used (or useful to begin with). Disclaimer: I'm also quite attached to positional event sounds :) Dylan -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Removal of PulseAudio from Ubuntu
Hm, i brought this up last year: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel-discuss/2009-June/008813.html After reading this post on Insane Coding< > http://insanecoding.blogspot.com/2009/06/state-of-sound-in-linux-not-so-sorry.html>(via > Slashdot< > http://linux.slashdot.org/story/09/06/19/1937210/State-of-Sound-Development-On-Linux-Not-So-Sorry-After-All?from=rss>) > it seems that PulseAudio is actually a very bad choice in the long term due > to horrible latency and lower sound quality, and that we should work to use > OSS v4. It's a long read but seems to be worth it. What do others think > about this? On Wed, May 5, 2010 at 19:13, Ryan Oram wrote: > A great overview of the problems with PulseAudio: > http://www.webcitation.org/5kcZfOb4l > > It is 2 years old, but the facts in the article above are still > completely true. PulseAudio has made essentially zero progress in the > last 2 years, which is why it should be abandoned. > > Open up any emulator program on Ubuntu and it will skip like mad. Same > with many native games such as Lincity-ng or OpenSonic. This is as > most games on Linux depend on sound timing, which the high latency > nature of PulseAudio messes up. > > I am greatly concerned that the non-functionality of PulseAudio is > hampering the beginning of a commercial game industry on Linux. > Developers need working APIs to make applications. They will not > tolerate game development using a half-working API. I feel that there > never be a wide spread game industry on Linux as long as PulseAudio is > in widespread use. > > I have nothing against the ideals and theories behind PulseAudio. It > is just their implementation does not work and it seems it will never > actually work as intended. Libsydney has never come to be. It is time > we look at alternatives. > > A good possible solution would be switching to OSS4 and writing an > audio wrapper for it to make it easier for developers to use. OSS4 is > much more simplistic and (arguably) cleaner designed then ALSA, which > would likely made this an easier task. > > I have already removed PulseAudio completely from my distribution > because I have found it greatly interferes with multimedia playback > and gaming. I have received no complaints from my users, in fact, many > of them have switched over to infinityOS specifically because I do not > include PulseAudio. > > Let's not waste any more effort on a failure. > > Thanks, > Ryan Oram > > -- > Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list > Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com > Modify settings or unsubscribe at: > https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss > -- .danny ☮♥Ⓐ - http://www.google.com/profiles/danny.piccirillo Every (in)decision matters. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Removal of PulseAudio from Ubuntu
A great overview of the problems with PulseAudio: http://www.webcitation.org/5kcZfOb4l It is 2 years old, but the facts in the article above are still completely true. PulseAudio has made essentially zero progress in the last 2 years, which is why it should be abandoned. Open up any emulator program on Ubuntu and it will skip like mad. Same with many native games such as Lincity-ng or OpenSonic. This is as most games on Linux depend on sound timing, which the high latency nature of PulseAudio messes up. I am greatly concerned that the non-functionality of PulseAudio is hampering the beginning of a commercial game industry on Linux. Developers need working APIs to make applications. They will not tolerate game development using a half-working API. I feel that there never be a wide spread game industry on Linux as long as PulseAudio is in widespread use. I have nothing against the ideals and theories behind PulseAudio. It is just their implementation does not work and it seems it will never actually work as intended. Libsydney has never come to be. It is time we look at alternatives. A good possible solution would be switching to OSS4 and writing an audio wrapper for it to make it easier for developers to use. OSS4 is much more simplistic and (arguably) cleaner designed then ALSA, which would likely made this an easier task. I have already removed PulseAudio completely from my distribution because I have found it greatly interferes with multimedia playback and gaming. I have received no complaints from my users, in fact, many of them have switched over to infinityOS specifically because I do not include PulseAudio. Let's not waste any more effort on a failure. Thanks, Ryan Oram -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
