Re: Non-MOTU as MOTU Mentors and bad advice
On Mon, 2008-11-10 at 22:39 -0500, Scott Kitterman wrote: > This is a stunningly bad idea and should stop. I just finished trying > to help > a novice mentee who was trying to upgrade his system to Jaunty because > his > mentor told him too. No, that's not, i completely disgree with that. Most of the MOTU's have already strong technical skills and they can mentor someone for his MOTU journey, but if you take a closer look to the programme it has been splited in 2 "stages", the first one the junior mentor program, which is basically for starters who wish to became UUC and the senior program which is for people wanting to became a MOTU. With that schema we can say that for new starters what is most needed is an overview of the tools we use (ubuntu-dev-scripts, pbuilder, launchpad, ubuntuwire, etc...) more than a hard technical guide, that's why the senior program is for, and for that program mentors need to be experienced MOTU's. I also agree that upgrading to jaunty was to much, so i will be really grateful if you send more information to the us (the mentoring receptions team) to work on that issues and fix stuff for the future instead of opening a big conversation on the public lists, as in security is better to talk with the people that can fix the issues before they are public. -- Nicolas Valcárcel Security Engineer Custom Engineering Solutions Group Canonical OEM Services Mobile: +51 1 99429 3200 Key fingerprint = BCE4 27A0 D03E 55DE DA2D BE06 891D 8DEE 6545 97FE gpg --keyserver keyserver.ubuntu.com --recv-keys 654597FE signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part -- Ubuntu-motu mailing list Ubuntu-motu@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-motu
Re: Non-MOTU as MOTU Mentors and bad advice
I am speaking here as the mentoring receptionist. On Tue, Nov 11, 2008 at 4:39 AM, Scott Kitterman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I will confess that I don't pay as much attention to the Mentors program as I > probably should. I had no idea we were allowing people who weren't MOTU to > act formally as mentors. Currently people allowed to mentors are: -> for the junior program : Ubuntu Universe Contributors, Motus, Core dev -> for the senior program : Motus, Core dev > > This is a stunningly bad idea and should stop. I just finished trying to help > a novice mentee who was trying to upgrade his system to Jaunty because his > mentor told him too. As I said on the IRC, I will contact the mentor to understand his point of view. (and I have to mention that ScottK was more than OK with that, since he pointed out that he didn't have both side of the stroy). > > Unless you really know what you are doing, running Jaunty right now is > insanity. It's also completely unnecessary to learn and do packaging work > for Jaunty. I think it is a general good sense advice. Not only limited to the mentoring program... > > The individual is an UCD, and I suspect that is the basis on which it was > considered appropriate. This is a complete misuse of UCD. UCD is a measure > of community participation and involvement. There is no particular technical > expertise needed to be a UCD. I really thing you have spotted the main problem : what is exactly the requirements needed in order to become a Ubuntu Universe Contributors ? After some discussions on IRC, apparently it is only granted on a development interaction, while for many people (myself included) there is a low technical review (of course nothing compared to the review done for MOTUship). I think looking at the applications of the various uuc (that have been granted so far), is a good exemple of that. >From my point of view (Ubuntu Universe Contributor myself, not a MOTU yet, for those of you who don't know me), I really think that someone who has completed the first step (junior part) of the mentoring program can guide someone in the junior step. Let's have a look at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/Mentoring/NewModel, where you can find the details for the mentoring program (in our case were are focussing on the junior program). There is a rought list of some points that a mentee have to deal with before applying to uuc I agree that having done so, is not a review of technical expertise, but I really think these are the common basics that are needed to start in our community. And an uuc can lead someone in the junior program (may be not the day he has been granted but after some time...). And we all know that teaching, is one of the best way to improve yourself... > > I know there aren't enough mentors, but I seriously think no mentor is better > than one who doesn't know what he's doing. Of course we lack mentors... and the shortage of mentors in the junior program is a real problem that we are facing... > > I'm not sure if this needs a policy decision at a MOTU meeting to change. If > it does, consider this the starting gun for the discussion. Thanks for starting discussion Scott. To sum up, I really think there is a misunderstanding on the requirements to become uuc. If being around without doing much for some time is enough to become uuc, then I agree uuc shouldn't be able to mentor. But I really think that all applications received by the MC, and everyone who have finished the junior process (or who will in the next future) have the necessary background to take care of a junior mentor... It might be an important point to clarify... and then after of course we will refine the mentoring program... Chris -- Ma vie | Mes recettes | http://www.reponses.net Mes images | -- Ubuntu-motu mailing list Ubuntu-motu@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-motu
Re: Non-MOTU as MOTU Mentors and bad advice
On Tuesday 11 November 2008 10:26, Emmet Hikory wrote: > Charliej wrote: > > On Mon, 2008-11-10 at 22:39 -0500, Scott Kitterman wrote: > >> I will confess that I don't pay as much attention to the Mentors program > >> as I probably should. I had no idea we were allowing people who weren't > >> MOTU to act formally as mentors. > > > > It is my understanding that UUC's are only allowed to mentor in the > > junior program. The senior program is strictly for MOTU as these are > > MOTU hopefuls > > > >> This is a stunningly bad idea and should stop. I just finished trying > >> to help a novice mentee who was trying to upgrade his system to Jaunty > >> because his mentor told him too. > > > > IMHO (this is only my opinion and may not be the opinion of the MOTU > > Mentoring Reception Team) I disagree! > > As much as I agree with Scott that in this case the provided advice > was flat-out wrong, and that the value of having those who have not > received technical review being recommended as mentors for development > is at best highly questionable, I wonder if establishing some set of > criteria by which mentors are judged (whether it be they being MOTU or > something else) is perhaps solving the wrong issue. > > The Mentoring Program page (1) states that a mentor in the Junior > Mentoring Program will "guide the new contributor (mentee) to find > his/her way into the community, present the different teams and guide > him/her through: [stunningly large list of technical tasks elided]". If > we are granting those without technical review the opportunity to act as > a Mentor, would it not be better to focus on the social aspects > (introduction to community, IRC best practices, team organisations, > common useful resources, etc.), and then concentrate the technical > training collaboratively in the #ubuntu-motu channel? > > By having each mentor individually lead each mentee through this > vast list of activities, we're surely creating a lot of duplicated > training activity, which would probably be better concentrated in one > place. This has the advantages that many people can learn from each > explanation, those more junior can feel comfortable giving advice > knowing those more senior will provide additional detail if required, > and each new person gains greater familiarity with each of the > participating developers, increasing the strength of the team. > > Further, with such regular discussions of technical tips & tricks, > those MOTU who may have forgotten some detail will have it refreshed, > and those providing training can build practice to better participate in > MOTU School sessions. > > To me, the important part of the mentoring process is that any > mentee has someone to turn to as a last resort when other resources are > insufficient, and someone who can provide advice as to possible avenues > for them to investigate. By structuring the program to encourage more > communication using existing channels, and encouraging mentors to > provide good links to useful shared documentation, we accomplish these > goals, while also improving our shared knowledge, building stronger > relationships, and sorting out much of the documentation that is > suffering from bitrot. > > Ideally, except with dealing with social issues, or helping find > something to do, or other relatively personal matters, most mentors > should be directing their mentees to high-quality shared documentation > explaining the concepts in question, and encouraging them to use typical > communications fora to explore any questions or concerns that may be > raised. In such an environment, I don't see any issue with trusting any > Ubuntu Member to provide useful guidance, as there is some reasonable > assurance that the provided advice matches current best practices and > that further discussion forms part of the shared culture that makes us > so effective. I think this is an excellent proposal. It gives UUC a role appropriate to what they are vetted for and works to bring people to our community, not separate people from it. Scott K -- Ubuntu-motu mailing list Ubuntu-motu@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-motu
Re: Non-MOTU as MOTU Mentors and bad advice
Charliej wrote: > On Mon, 2008-11-10 at 22:39 -0500, Scott Kitterman wrote: >> I will confess that I don't pay as much attention to the Mentors program as >> I >> probably should. I had no idea we were allowing people who weren't MOTU to >> act formally as mentors. > > It is my understanding that UUC's are only allowed to mentor in the > junior program. The senior program is strictly for MOTU as these are > MOTU hopefuls >> This is a stunningly bad idea and should stop. I just finished trying to >> help >> a novice mentee who was trying to upgrade his system to Jaunty because his >> mentor told him too. > > IMHO (this is only my opinion and may not be the opinion of the MOTU > Mentoring Reception Team) I disagree! As much as I agree with Scott that in this case the provided advice was flat-out wrong, and that the value of having those who have not received technical review being recommended as mentors for development is at best highly questionable, I wonder if establishing some set of criteria by which mentors are judged (whether it be they being MOTU or something else) is perhaps solving the wrong issue. The Mentoring Program page (1) states that a mentor in the Junior Mentoring Program will "guide the new contributor (mentee) to find his/her way into the community, present the different teams and guide him/her through: [stunningly large list of technical tasks elided]". If we are granting those without technical review the opportunity to act as a Mentor, would it not be better to focus on the social aspects (introduction to community, IRC best practices, team organisations, common useful resources, etc.), and then concentrate the technical training collaboratively in the #ubuntu-motu channel? By having each mentor individually lead each mentee through this vast list of activities, we're surely creating a lot of duplicated training activity, which would probably be better concentrated in one place. This has the advantages that many people can learn from each explanation, those more junior can feel comfortable giving advice knowing those more senior will provide additional detail if required, and each new person gains greater familiarity with each of the participating developers, increasing the strength of the team. Further, with such regular discussions of technical tips & tricks, those MOTU who may have forgotten some detail will have it refreshed, and those providing training can build practice to better participate in MOTU School sessions. To me, the important part of the mentoring process is that any mentee has someone to turn to as a last resort when other resources are insufficient, and someone who can provide advice as to possible avenues for them to investigate. By structuring the program to encourage more communication using existing channels, and encouraging mentors to provide good links to useful shared documentation, we accomplish these goals, while also improving our shared knowledge, building stronger relationships, and sorting out much of the documentation that is suffering from bitrot. Ideally, except with dealing with social issues, or helping find something to do, or other relatively personal matters, most mentors should be directing their mentees to high-quality shared documentation explaining the concepts in question, and encouraging them to use typical communications fora to explore any questions or concerns that may be raised. In such an environment, I don't see any issue with trusting any Ubuntu Member to provide useful guidance, as there is some reasonable assurance that the provided advice matches current best practices and that further discussion forms part of the shared culture that makes us so effective. -- Emmet HIKORY -- Ubuntu-motu mailing list Ubuntu-motu@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-motu
Re: Non-MOTU as MOTU Mentors and bad advice
On Tuesday 11 November 2008 09:13, Nicolas Valcárcel wrote: > On Mon, 2008-11-10 at 22:39 -0500, Scott Kitterman wrote: > > This is a stunningly bad idea and should stop. I just finished trying > > to help > > a novice mentee who was trying to upgrade his system to Jaunty because > > his > > mentor told him too. > > No, that's not, i completely disgree with that. Most of the MOTU's have > already strong technical skills and they can mentor someone for his MOTU > journey, but if you take a closer look to the programme it has been > splited in 2 "stages", the first one the junior mentor program, which is > basically for starters who wish to became UUC and the senior program > which is for people wanting to became a MOTU. I understand the two part process. I disagree that people with no particular technical skills are suitable to be mentors. > With that schema we can say that for new starters what is most needed is > an overview of the tools we use (ubuntu-dev-scripts, pbuilder, > launchpad, ubuntuwire, etc...) more than a hard technical guide, that's > why the senior program is for, and for that program mentors need to be > experienced MOTU's. Well we need some standard of technical experience for mentors. Currently the only group we have that has met some standard of review for technical experience is MOTU. > I also agree that upgrading to jaunty was to much, so i will be really > grateful if you send more information to the us (the mentoring > receptions team) to work on that issues and fix stuff for the future > instead of opening a big conversation on the public lists, as in > security is better to talk with the people that can fix the issues > before they are public. I sent it to the reception list already (waiting moderation AFAIK). The current situation is broken by design. Assigning mentors with no standard of technical capability to provide competent mentoring is just flat wrong and should be stopped. I've sent the information in private about who it was so the specific individual can be counselled, but the discussion about changing the rules needs to be in public. Scott K -- Ubuntu-motu mailing list Ubuntu-motu@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-motu
Re: Non-MOTU as MOTU Mentors and bad advice
On Tue, 11 Nov 2008 06:14:49 -0600 Charliej <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >On Mon, 2008-11-10 at 22:39 -0500, Scott Kitterman wrote: >> I will confess that I don't pay as much attention to the Mentors program as I >> probably should. I had no idea we were allowing people who weren't MOTU to >> act formally as mentors. > >It is my understanding that UUC's are only allowed to mentor in the >junior program. The senior program is strictly for MOTU as these are >MOTU hopefuls I now understand that. I believe it is wrong and should be changed. I'm not trying to say this assignment was done out of process, but that I believe the current process is wrong. >> >> This is a stunningly bad idea and should stop. I just finished trying to help >> a novice mentee who was trying to upgrade his system to Jaunty because his >> mentor told him too. > >IMHO (this is only my opinion and may not be the opinion of the MOTU >Mentoring Reception Team) I disagree! No doubt. >One question though, was the offending UUC included in the discussions >and shown the error in his/her ways? People do make mistakes, and on >occasion show bad judgment. No the mentor was no where around and the hapless mentee was looking for help. This isn't so much about this single mistake, but about the concept. It took this mistake for me to notice is all. >> >> Unless you really know what you are doing, running Jaunty right now is >> insanity. It's also completely unnecessary to learn and do packaging work >> for Jaunty. > >Agreed!! >> >> The individual is an UCD, and I suspect that is the basis on which it was >> considered appropriate. This is a complete misuse of UCD. UCD is a measure >> of community participation and involvement. There is no particular >> technical >> expertise needed to be a UCD. > >Would you please provide the MOTU Mentoring Reception Team with this >UUC's name on the Mentoring Reception Teams ML so we may reevaluate this >UUC's participation in the program? This is a private list. >[EMAIL PROTECTED] Done. >What would you propose as a possible skill set needed for UUC's to >participate in the junior program? Become MOTU. As I said before, UUC/UCD (which is it anyway) is a distinction of community involvement, not technical capability. The notion that UUC/UCD have any particular set of technical skills that make them particularly suited to mentor new people is fundamentally flawed. Helping someone productively, correctly, and enjoyably take their first steps in packaging/bug fixing/etc can be complex. Part of the problem is that this conversation took place in private with no one to watch and give guidance. If this had not been a mentor/mentee discussion it would have been much more likely to be on #ubuntu-motu where someone more experienced would have been able to provide oversight. This kind of hidden communication is part of why I think the mentors program is fundamentally flawed. >> >> I know there aren't enough mentors, but I seriously think no mentor is better >> than one who doesn't know what he's doing. > >Old and New MOTU's are always *welcome* to participate in the mentoring >program!! > Of course. I would encourage people to ask and answer questions on #ubuntu-motu or this ML. In a way we're all mentors. Scott K -- Ubuntu-motu mailing list Ubuntu-motu@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-motu
Re: Non-MOTU as MOTU Mentors and bad advice
On Mon, 2008-11-10 at 22:39 -0500, Scott Kitterman wrote: > I will confess that I don't pay as much attention to the Mentors program as I > probably should. I had no idea we were allowing people who weren't MOTU to > act formally as mentors. It is my understanding that UUC's are only allowed to mentor in the junior program. The senior program is strictly for MOTU as these are MOTU hopefuls > > This is a stunningly bad idea and should stop. I just finished trying to > help > a novice mentee who was trying to upgrade his system to Jaunty because his > mentor told him too. IMHO (this is only my opinion and may not be the opinion of the MOTU Mentoring Reception Team) I disagree! One question though, was the offending UUC included in the discussions and shown the error in his/her ways? People do make mistakes, and on occasion show bad judgment. > > Unless you really know what you are doing, running Jaunty right now is > insanity. It's also completely unnecessary to learn and do packaging work > for Jaunty. Agreed!! > > The individual is an UCD, and I suspect that is the basis on which it was > considered appropriate. This is a complete misuse of UCD. UCD is a measure > of community participation and involvement. There is no particular technical > expertise needed to be a UCD. Would you please provide the MOTU Mentoring Reception Team with this UUC's name on the Mentoring Reception Teams ML so we may reevaluate this UUC's participation in the program? This is a private list. [EMAIL PROTECTED] What would you propose as a possible skill set needed for UUC's to participate in the junior program? > > I know there aren't enough mentors, but I seriously think no mentor is better > than one who doesn't know what he's doing. Old and New MOTU's are always *welcome* to participate in the mentoring program!! Charlie MOTU Mentoring Reception Team -- Ubuntu-motu mailing list Ubuntu-motu@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-motu
Re: Non-MOTU as MOTU Mentors and bad advice
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Scott Kitterman schrieb: > Unless you really know what you are doing, running Jaunty right now is > insanity. It's also completely unnecessary to learn and do packaging work > for Jaunty. For using the development release safely, please take a look at: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment/UsingDevelopmentReleases Regarding the Mentoring Programme: I'm not sure we need to discuss it on the MOTU Council list. The MOTU list should be enough for now. - From https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/Mentoring/NewModel "The majority of new contributors are unsure on how to begin when starting out in Ubuntu development. Most only need an overview of basic tools, processes, and to become familiar with available Ubuntu Teams and community members. Experienced developers have (in most cases) a busy agenda and often can't dedicate a lot of time to new contributors, which may make those contributors lose their interest in contributing. On the other hand, experienced contributors (Ubuntu Members or Universe Contributors) may also have the time and energy needed for such a work. Also, helping new contributors will push senior ones to learn and investigate more on the fields they don't know already." I'm not involved in the Mentoring programme as a coordinator anymore, but I personally think this is a good idea. I expect everybody who made it into the Universe Contributors team to help out with advice in the team. Granted, upgrading to Jaunty is a bit much, but I feel this is one of the few occasions where things went wrong. In this specific case anybody could have given the advice to run jaunty, being a mentor or not, so I'm not sure that discussing a mentoring programme change helps much. I think I'd prefer a discussion about how we can make good information on the wiki more prominent. Pages like https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment/KnowledgeBase (which includes the link above) should be used much more and the first thing that come to our minds. Have a nice day, Daniel -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iEYEARECAAYFAkkZLX8ACgkQRjrlnQWd1eutBwCdFE2PA+oFxmXXwExjDLGyAuRT QjUAn2/8b4AG3aZCWdWaHMxCsl0859bX =qW5i -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- Ubuntu-motu mailing list Ubuntu-motu@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-motu
Re: Non-MOTU as MOTU Mentors and bad advice
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 I was also unaware that UCDs are allowed to be mentors, and this seems very very wrong for me. If this is actually the case, I feel that we need to change it so only MOTU or greater can be mentors. Jaunty is in really not usable at all for day to day work, unless your willing to deal with loads of breakage, just yesterday we had a bug (resolved now) that would cause pulseaudio to be uninstalled if you tried to dist-upgrade! Michael -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) Comment: http://getfiregpg.org iEYEARECAAYFAkkZCNAACgkQpblTBJ2i2psZ1QCdGITSJrlNpxSB3bySP3Z6QLJK jOoAnjzZRnVEDjuo98Xsh26Zk2ffQddr =1klt -END PGP SIGNATURE- On Mon, Nov 10, 2008 at 10:39 PM, Scott Kitterman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I will confess that I don't pay as much attention to the Mentors program as I > probably should. I had no idea we were allowing people who weren't MOTU to > act formally as mentors. > > This is a stunningly bad idea and should stop. I just finished trying to help > a novice mentee who was trying to upgrade his system to Jaunty because his > mentor told him too. > > Unless you really know what you are doing, running Jaunty right now is > insanity. It's also completely unnecessary to learn and do packaging work > for Jaunty. > > The individual is an UCD, and I suspect that is the basis on which it was > considered appropriate. This is a complete misuse of UCD. UCD is a measure > of community participation and involvement. There is no particular technical > expertise needed to be a UCD. > > I know there aren't enough mentors, but I seriously think no mentor is better > than one who doesn't know what he's doing. > > I'm not sure if this needs a policy decision at a MOTU meeting to change. If > it does, consider this the starting gun for the discussion. > > > Scott K > > -- > Motu-council mailing list > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Modify settings or unsubscribe at: > https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/motu-council > -- Ubuntu-motu mailing list Ubuntu-motu@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-motu
Non-MOTU as MOTU Mentors and bad advice
I will confess that I don't pay as much attention to the Mentors program as I probably should. I had no idea we were allowing people who weren't MOTU to act formally as mentors. This is a stunningly bad idea and should stop. I just finished trying to help a novice mentee who was trying to upgrade his system to Jaunty because his mentor told him too. Unless you really know what you are doing, running Jaunty right now is insanity. It's also completely unnecessary to learn and do packaging work for Jaunty. The individual is an UCD, and I suspect that is the basis on which it was considered appropriate. This is a complete misuse of UCD. UCD is a measure of community participation and involvement. There is no particular technical expertise needed to be a UCD. I know there aren't enough mentors, but I seriously think no mentor is better than one who doesn't know what he's doing. I'm not sure if this needs a policy decision at a MOTU meeting to change. If it does, consider this the starting gun for the discussion. Scott K -- Ubuntu-motu mailing list Ubuntu-motu@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-motu
