Re: [Ubuntu-PH] SJVN reports that Ubuntu changes its desktop from GNOME to Unity
Ah, Then why don't you call Linux an OS for geeks and Windows an OS for everybody else (who knows how to spell English) Ron Speers Balibago, Angeles City --- On Tue, 10/26/10, hard wyrd hardw...@gmail.com wrote: From: hard wyrd hardw...@gmail.com Subject: Re: [Ubuntu-PH] SJVN reports that Ubuntu changes its desktop from GNOME to Unity To: Mailing List para sa Ubuntu Pilipinas (Philippines) ubuntu-ph@lists.ubuntu.com Date: Tuesday, October 26, 2010, 5:36 PM On Tue, Oct 26, 2010 at 4:29 PM, JC John Sese Cuneta jcjohn.sesecun...@laibcoms.com wrote: Marked with :: :: It's not really deception per se. You have to consider where they're coming from and where they're standing at. For us geeks, it's a no-brainer. For them, it isn't. Our brains function way differently than the non-geeks. And most of the time, we geeks are willing to spend more time into reading, experimenting, learning, asking questions, finding solutions, etc. They are not and they will never be. Mimicking a UI of one OS is technically deception. And instead of letting those users get familiar with a Linux user interface, they'll continue on with the same thing from Windows. It is exactly this thinking - users will never be experimenting, learning, and asking questions - that made a lot of people call system administrators as BOFH in the first place. As tech people - knowledgeable in the systems - i believe it's the tech's responsibility to educate them, show them the hoops, guide them through the ropes a little. Yes they do experiment, yes they do ask questions, and yes they do find solutions as long as we are not so uptight about stuff and give them a little lee way to explore (within bounds). Honestly, they're just so damn afraid that they'll break something and afraid to earn the ire of the techs. :: You see, if we ever want them to migrate, especially offices, we need to see things from their eyes, from their perspective. We need to think like them. We can not just go to them, present and demo our superior product, and tell them every little and big thing that we can think of why they need to migrate to Linux all we want. But if we can not address their needs, not ours but theirs, then they will never bite. They won't even bother trying it out. Exactly. Under a consultant's point of view, it's bad form to just jump in without knowing what they want. But then again, when offering a Linux-based solution, make sure that they know it _is_ Linux with UI that's reminiscent of Linux and not some knock off of another OS, because that is definitely misleading. :: Personally, I have more success in converting people to use Linux, or to be exact, Ubuntu, by presenting it to them based on what they need and what they are looking for in an OS. I first try to find out more about them. Their habbits, what are their primary, secondary, and tertiary purposes of using a PC, and their outlook in this matter. Then when the time is right (or they gave the schedule), everything that comes out of my mouth has been catered to them. Totally different from the mimicked UI we were discussing a few paragraphs back. But I agree on you on this part. That's what I do to clients as well. But I make sure I let them know it's Linux, Ubuntu, whatever, and I keep the UI as it is. But that's me. :). :: It isn't perfect, and it is harder in office evironments. But I have better success in that method than presenting GNU/Linux and Ubuntu as-is. It is far from being a deception. We want to present GNU/Linux as a product for them, not for geeks. Ubuntu is already usable as it is. Why change the UI to look like Windows? So changing the desktop to Unity default, based on our experience, will further make the Windows users to _not_ to migrate, nor even try. Unity for desktop as default will not break that ice. For netbook, sure, it _is_ a netbook after all, we need space and speed. But for a desktop as default? It's a bad decision. I don't quite think so. It requires relearning - yes. Relearning was not a barrier to Windows users who purchased Macs. They just have to learn the ins and outs. Sadly, a lot of users want to be spoon fed. I've been there. :: Well, Mac users are better than Windows users, they always have been. In what way were Mac users better than Windows users? Mac and GNU/Linux have the lowest share vs. Windows. So our side obviously can learn Windows much easier because our thinking has been molded different already. Windows users are not, as you have said, spoon fed. And to add to that, Microsoft has a strong marketing department. Actually we have
Re: [Ubuntu-PH] SJVN reports that Ubuntu changes its desktop from GNOME to Unity
Who gets to decide that there's enough diversity? :P I think Gnome will push even without Canonical mostly behind them. It is more likely that Unity or its design ideas will get pushed back to more conventional desktop environments, as I heard last time that Unity is for the Netbook Edition. On Oct 26, 2010 10:55 PM, Ian Dexter R. Marquez iandex...@gmail.com wrote: Still, Shuttleworth's pronouncement was pretty sensational. ;) Some would regard this decision (Unity vs GNOME Shell) as ultimately a fork, an idea that further (IMHO) exacerbates the perception that Canonical is not contributing enough to core GNOME functionality. GNOME's focus right now is to revamp the desktop experience, and with Canonical working essentially on their own on Unity, GNOME will be losing the much-needed feedback from Ubuntu's user base, and skills from Canonical's experienced engineers. (I don't want this to boil down to an us vs them debate -- anyone miss KDE vs GNOME vs Xfce vs whatever? Didn't think so.) Bottom line: it was a business decision for Canonical. They want market differentiation for the Ubuntu brand, and it's well within their right to decide what's best for their users. In the end, the free software community would have to decide which to support more. Diversity is good, but not too much. :) On Tue, Oct 26, 2010 at 18:11, Zak B. Elep zak...@gmail.com wrote: That's sjvn for you. He just loves to sensationalize. On Oct 26, 2010 12:05 PM, Allan E. Registos allan.regis...@smpc.steniel.com.ph wrote: Actually as one commentator pointed this out, the title is SJVN's article is misleading, it is not a departure from GNOME which is the desktop, but from the default shell of Gnome. Unity can be understood as a counterpart or another alternative of Gnome Shell which runs on top of Gnome. - Original Message - From: Stephen Piana stephen.pi...@gmail.com To: Mailing List para sa Ubuntu Pilipinas (Philippines) ubuntu-ph@lists.ubuntu.com Sent: Monday, October 25, 2010 9:15:21 PM Subject: Re: [Ubuntu-PH] SJVN reports that Ubuntu changes its desktop from GNOME to Unity update found this: http://www.jonobacon.org/2010/10/25/ubuntu-11-04-to-ship-unity/ :D On Tue, Oct 26, 2010 at 9:08 AM, Stephen Piana stephen.pi...@gmail.com wrote: Hhhhmm... users want Unity as their primary desktop.? now that's funny. :p On Tue, Oct 26, 2010 at 8:56 AM, Allan E. Registos allan.regis...@smpc.steniel.com.ph wrote: At least for the 11.04 release. Here is the link: http://blogs.computerworld.com/17224/ubuntu_changes_its_desktop_from_gnome_to_unity Any thoughts? -- ubuntu-ph mailing list ubuntu-ph@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-ph -- Don't Mess With The TeNsAi!!! -- Don't Mess With The TeNsAi!!! -- ubuntu-ph mailing list ubuntu-ph@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-ph -- ubuntu-ph mailing list ubuntu-ph@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-ph -- Ian Dexter R. Marquez http://iandexter.com -- ubuntu-ph mailing list ubuntu-ph@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-ph -- ubuntu-ph mailing list ubuntu-ph@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-ph
Re: [Ubuntu-PH] SJVN reports that Ubuntu changes its desktop from GNOME to Unity
On Tuesday, 26 October, 2010 08:56 AM, Allan E. Registos wrote: At least for the 11.04 release. Here is the link: http://blogs.computerworld.com/17224/ubuntu_changes_its_desktop_from_gnome_to_unity Any thoughts? Developers of Gnome attack Canonical’s Ubuntu decision http://www.cebuntu.com/?p=450 -- Erick John Cuevas - Ubuntu user number # 30996 http://ubuntucounter.geekosophical.net -- ubuntu-ph mailing list ubuntu-ph@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-ph
Re: [Ubuntu-PH] SJVN reports that Ubuntu changes its desktop from GNOME to Unity
On Tue, Oct 26, 2010 at 5:05 PM, Stephen Piana stephen.pi...@gmail.comwrote: as long as support for the current UI is still available then the new move is fine with me. :D but it's weird for a desktop to act/look like the netbook remix. Something that's new will always be weird :). A radical approach will always be weird :). -- - Penguin, penguin, and more penguin ! www.madforubuntu.com baudizm.blogsome.com -- ubuntu-ph mailing list ubuntu-ph@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-ph
Re: [Ubuntu-PH] SJVN reports that Ubuntu changes its desktop from GNOME to Unity
On Tuesday, 26 October, 2010 04:03 PM, Allan E. Registos wrote: So changing the desktop to Unity default, based on our experience, will further make the Windows users to _not_ to migrate, nor even try. Unity for desktop as default will not break that ice. For netbook, sure, it _is_ a netbook after all, we need space and speed. But for a desktop as default? It's a bad decision. Its too early to decide, whether its bad or good, but I will go for the good one, since I voted a +1 for this move. :: My question is, why Unity? Why not gnome3? Other than the fact that it is not yet released quality… Unity is good for netbooks, that I'm full support. :: But regardless, I'm not against Unity-desktop as default. My concern is coming from the marketing/sales side of it. We geeks can install Unity easily, the non-geeks, as I've said, doesn't think the way you and I think. And then the question, is it time? Couldn't it have waited until 11.10 or after the next LTS? :: Oh, and since you're a team member :p My gripe with Unity (as out-of-the-box) is a locked panel. I'm sure it will be unlocked for the desktop? Or not? (Again for netbooks it is understandable…) This clearly tells me that Canonical is done with the come Windows users try us out phase. The recent decisions, from Jaunty onwards, were all signs to me that they have a new vision and a new objective. They are now treating Ubuntu as an independent OS. A product worthy to be called an Operating System in and of itself. Ubuntu is Ubuntu. Ubuntu _is_ _the_ OS. I am hoping that the recent attack against Ubuntu as a mere packaging company does not inspire us to say that Canonical wants her OS to be apart from the Linux core. Ubuntu may not contributing more to upstream developers, but the distro is my default desktop when migrating large number of users to Linux, they have done a wonderful job of creating a user friendly desktop. :: Not sure about that, I didn't even know there were new ones again. I actually care less about the attacks on Canonical. Canonical is there and it is for the good of the Ubuntu product, so let them attack Canonical all they want, sooner or later they will see the value of Canonical being there at the back and at the top of Ubuntu. :: Also, I don't quite got the idea about Canonical being a mere packaing company. What was that all about? :: My analysis is not related in any way whatsoever with those attacks and views. And I am only coming from the marketing/sales side of it. Right now, the popular OS are: Mac (for Unix, lolz), Windows, and Linux. Most are mis-informed about the name/brand Linux but not with Ubuntu. I only hope that the good reputation they have built behind the brand Ubuntu will bring the product to greater heights and success with the new path and future they want to bring it to. This is NOT Ubuntu/Canonical's fault for creating a bad name for Linux as an OS. Whose fault? The last time I check, this is my list: Asus, Acer and Lenovo. Lenovo's linux got pre-installed on some of their notebooks is junk and unusable (CLI). Acer's inclusion of Android as a dual-boot with Win7 (Another linux-based) is horrible. Asus' EEE line of netbooks got quickly replaced with Windows XP. At least Ubuntu offers the default Gnome(A Unix DE). :: Meh, I did not say it was anybody's fault, and not even talking about whose fault it was ^_^ I was in fact in favor of Ubuntu there, re-positioning Ubuntu from being just another distro with a Linux OS to being the Ubuntu or should I say, the OS. Maybe one day it will be like this: Mac, Windows, and Ubuntu. ^_^ One day, most applications are web-based, and the looks of Mac and Windows are irrelevant to the user as long as their is a Web browser that will run their applications. :: One day. And for that one day to arrive, our net connection quality and reliability should be at par with our northern neighbors. :) My opinion. The inclusion of Unity for the next release to my opinion is a welcome one. We do have a lot of DEs in Linux, but none of them even close to mainstream adoption not because the fault is on their side, but to me, it is because the application support. Many ISVs today, as I noticed, were supporting Ubuntu in tandem with RHEL and other popular Linux distros. The more applications that will run on top of GNU/Linux, the more hardware manufacturers will support GNU/Linux. Also, I believe we are in a transition period i.e., from traditional desktop to web-based apps, and at that time, Windows Desktop Environment becomes irrelevant, since the most important thing is the browser. :: I hope so. And that transition period will be a very long one. Our own country alone is far from being ready to go web-based, and even more far to go cloud-based. :: I don't know. And I'm sorry. I just see things from a different perspective. I like Ubuntu, no, I _love_ Ubuntu more than any other
Re: [Ubuntu-PH] SJVN reports that Ubuntu changes its desktop from GNOME to Unity
On Tuesday, 26 October, 2010 05:36 PM, hard wyrd wrote: Mimicking a UI of one OS is technically deception. And instead of letting those users get familiar with a Linux user interface, they'll continue on with the same thing from Windows. It is exactly this thinking - users will never be experimenting, learning, and asking questions - that made a lot of people call system administrators as BOFH in the first place. As tech people - knowledgeable in the systems - i believe it's the tech's responsibility to educate them, show them the hoops, guide them through the ropes a little. Yes they do experiment, yes they do ask questions, and yes they do find solutions as long as we are not so uptight about stuff and give them a little lee way to explore (within bounds). Honestly, they're just so damn afraid that they'll break something and afraid to earn the ire of the techs. Exactly. Under a consultant's point of view, it's bad form to just jump in without knowing what they want. But then again, when offering a Linux-based solution, make sure that they know it _is_ Linux with UI that's reminiscent of Linux and not some knock off of another OS, because that is definitely misleading. :: Of course they know it _is_ Linux, they wouldn't ask for a demo if it is not. ;) Seriously, no kidding (I'm not being sarcastic or anything). :: You're taking the UI as something that will kill Linux off. A UI is just that, a UI. They can customize it all they want, make it look like LCARS (Star Trek interface) if they want to, it's just a UI. And if a Windows mock-up will get them interested with Linux (Ubuntu to be exact), then why not? Secondly, when you demo Linux, you make sure you show them at least two UIs, be it GNOME or KDE, or in our case with other groups, GNOME and Windows mock-up. :: So I will still disagree, it is not a deception at all, not even technically, because they know what it is all about. That's what and why there is a demo, a presentation. Deception is not telling them what they need to know right there and then, no we'll tell them next time. Totally different from the mimicked UI we were discussing a few paragraphs back. But I agree on you on this part. That's what I do to clients as well. But I make sure I let them know it's Linux, Ubuntu, whatever, and I keep the UI as it is. But that's me. :). :: It isn't perfect, and it is harder in office evironments. But I have better success in that method than presenting GNU/Linux and Ubuntu as-is. It is far from being a deception. We want to present GNU/Linux as a product for them, not for geeks. Ubuntu is already usable as it is. Why change the UI to look like Windows? :: So it won't be too much for them? Or they will have an even more opened mind? Or because they asked to? Or because we want to give them options or show the freedom they can have with Linux? :: I don't know. Should there be deep and fundamental reasons to why or why not we should include a presentation/demo of Ubuntu with a Windows UI theme? It's catered to them, we knew the kind of people there are in the organization beforehand (or the individual). ^_^ In what way were Mac users better than Windows users? :: Most of them already have an open mind, re: other OS. But I misunderstood you there, I switched the scenario, I thought I read Macs to Windows This clearly tells me that Canonical is done with the come Windows users try us out phase. The recent decisions, from Jaunty onwards, were all signs to me that they have a new vision and a new objective. They are now treating Ubuntu as an independent OS. A product worthy to be called an Operating System in and of itself. Ubuntu is Ubuntu. Ubuntu _is_ _the_ OS. I don't think they're going to drop Linux because it still is a Linux distribution. To me the recent decisions were to make it a bit more recognizable than just another Linux distro. How will it distinguish itself from the rest? It's still Linux but something will need to be done as far as risks and bold moves are concerned. :: No, I wasn't referring to dropping Linux, it won't run without it. And if you meant name, they never used Ubuntu Linux, not that I remember. Regardless, that's what I was talking about. They're looking at the product to become a household name. Instead of Linux, it will be Ubuntu. It is still Linux underneath, but the non-geeks know it by Ubuntu. Mac is Unix underneath. But do people refer to it as Unix? I think this is semantics :) :: Exactly my point ^_^ Positioning Ubuntu to where Mac is positioned. And that _is_ a good strategy, I am all behind it. If my analysis is correct and that is where they see Ubuntu is going or will be in the future. :: For us, we care so much about correctness of terminologies, like GNU/Linux vs. Linux.
Re: [Ubuntu-PH] SJVN reports that Ubuntu changes its desktop from GNOME to Unity
Still, Shuttleworth's pronouncement was pretty sensational. ;) Some would regard this decision (Unity vs GNOME Shell) as ultimately a fork, an idea that further (IMHO) exacerbates the perception that Canonical is not contributing enough to core GNOME functionality. GNOME's focus right now is to revamp the desktop experience, and with Canonical working essentially on their own on Unity, GNOME will be losing the much-needed feedback from Ubuntu's user base, and skills from Canonical's experienced engineers. (I don't want this to boil down to an us vs them debate -- anyone miss KDE vs GNOME vs Xfce vs whatever? Didn't think so.) Bottom line: it was a business decision for Canonical. They want market differentiation for the Ubuntu brand, and it's well within their right to decide what's best for their users. In the end, the free software community would have to decide which to support more. Diversity is good, but not too much. :) On Tue, Oct 26, 2010 at 18:11, Zak B. Elep zak...@gmail.com wrote: That's sjvn for you. He just loves to sensationalize. On Oct 26, 2010 12:05 PM, Allan E. Registos allan.regis...@smpc.steniel.com.ph wrote: Actually as one commentator pointed this out, the title is SJVN's article is misleading, it is not a departure from GNOME which is the desktop, but from the default shell of Gnome. Unity can be understood as a counterpart or another alternative of Gnome Shell which runs on top of Gnome. - Original Message - From: Stephen Piana stephen.pi...@gmail.com To: Mailing List para sa Ubuntu Pilipinas (Philippines) ubuntu-ph@lists.ubuntu.com Sent: Monday, October 25, 2010 9:15:21 PM Subject: Re: [Ubuntu-PH] SJVN reports that Ubuntu changes its desktop from GNOME to Unity update found this: http://www.jonobacon.org/2010/10/25/ubuntu-11-04-to-ship-unity/ :D On Tue, Oct 26, 2010 at 9:08 AM, Stephen Piana stephen.pi...@gmail.com wrote: Hhhhmm... users want Unity as their primary desktop.? now that's funny. :p On Tue, Oct 26, 2010 at 8:56 AM, Allan E. Registos allan.regis...@smpc.steniel.com.ph wrote: At least for the 11.04 release. Here is the link: http://blogs.computerworld.com/17224/ubuntu_changes_its_desktop_from_gnome_to_unity Any thoughts? -- ubuntu-ph mailing list ubuntu-ph@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-ph -- Don't Mess With The TeNsAi!!! -- Don't Mess With The TeNsAi!!! -- ubuntu-ph mailing list ubuntu-ph@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-ph -- ubuntu-ph mailing list ubuntu-ph@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-ph -- Ian Dexter R. Marquez http://iandexter.com -- ubuntu-ph mailing list ubuntu-ph@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-ph
Re: [Ubuntu-PH] SJVN reports that Ubuntu changes its desktop from GNOME to Unity
Actually as one commentator pointed this out, the title is SJVN's article is misleading, it is not a departure from GNOME which is the desktop, but from the default shell of Gnome. Unity can be understood as a counterpart or another alternative of Gnome Shell which runs on top of Gnome. - Original Message - From: Stephen Piana stephen.pi...@gmail.com To: Mailing List para sa Ubuntu Pilipinas (Philippines) ubuntu-ph@lists.ubuntu.com Sent: Monday, October 25, 2010 9:15:21 PM Subject: Re: [Ubuntu-PH] SJVN reports that Ubuntu changes its desktop from GNOME to Unity update found this: http://www.jonobacon.org/2010/10/25/ubuntu-11-04-to-ship-unity/ :D On Tue, Oct 26, 2010 at 9:08 AM, Stephen Piana stephen.pi...@gmail.com wrote: Hhhhmm... users want Unity as their primary desktop.? now that's funny. :p On Tue, Oct 26, 2010 at 8:56 AM, Allan E. Registos allan.regis...@smpc.steniel.com.ph wrote: At least for the 11.04 release. Here is the link: http://blogs.computerworld.com/17224/ubuntu_changes_its_desktop_from_gnome_to_unity Any thoughts? -- ubuntu-ph mailing list ubuntu-ph@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-ph -- Don't Mess With The TeNsAi!!! -- Don't Mess With The TeNsAi!!! -- ubuntu-ph mailing list ubuntu-ph@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-ph -- ubuntu-ph mailing list ubuntu-ph@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-ph
