Re: Ubuntu Testing

[Phill Whiteside]

Hi David,

welcome to ubuntu-quality, we do not bite :) As has been suggested, please
have a read through the wiki area and do please let us know how we can
improve it.

Regards,

Phill.

On 4 January 2013 00:57, Jackson Doak  wrote:

> welcome david, all the things that apply to chris apply to you. please
> join #ubuntu-quality on irc.freenode.net .
> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Testing/ should fill you in.
>
>
> On Fri, Jan 4, 2013 at 11:54 AM, David Wildgoose <
> david.wildgo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Hey everyone! My name is David Wildgoose. Like Chris Wagner I'm new to
>> testing but don't mind helping out.
>>
>> --
>> Sincerely,
>>
>> David Wildgoose
>>
>>
>>
>> --
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>>
>>
>
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Re: Ubuntu Quality Assurance (testing and bug triage)

[Sergio Meneses]

Welcome on board Chris!

Maybe these links can help you:

https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QATeam
https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QATeam/Overview




Sergio Meneses
Linux User: #478743
Ubuntu User: #24056


On Thu, Jan 3, 2013 at 7:50 PM, Jackson Doak  wrote:

> welcome chris, you seem to have joined at the perfect time, we have
> classroom sessions for ubuntu testing in the next two weeks. have you got
> an irc client? if so i will talk you you there.
>
> Noskcaj
>
>
> On Fri, Jan 4, 2013 at 11:47 AM, chris wagner wrote:
>
>> I am Christopher Wagner and i dont have much expertise in this areah but
>> i will be as helpfull as i possably can.
>>
>> --
>> lovin life hating haters
>> --
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>>
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Re: Ubuntu Testing

[Sergio Meneses]

Hi David!

Welcome! it is great that more people get involve with the testing team, I
think this link can help you:
https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QATeam



Sergio Meneses
Linux User: #478743
Ubuntu User: #24056


On Thu, Jan 3, 2013 at 7:54 PM, David Wildgoose
wrote:

> Hey everyone! My name is David Wildgoose. Like Chris Wagner I'm new to
> testing but don't mind helping out.
>
> --
> Sincerely,
>
> David Wildgoose
>
>
>
> --
> Ubuntu-quality mailing list
> Ubuntu-quality@lists.ubuntu.com
> Modify settings or unsubscribe at:
> https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-quality
>
>
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Re: Ubuntu Testing

[Jackson Doak]

welcome david, all the things that apply to chris apply to you. please join
#ubuntu-quality on irc.freenode.net . https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Testing/ should
fill you in.


On Fri, Jan 4, 2013 at 11:54 AM, David Wildgoose
wrote:

> Hey everyone! My name is David Wildgoose. Like Chris Wagner I'm new to
> testing but don't mind helping out.
>
> --
> Sincerely,
>
> David Wildgoose
>
>
>
> --
> Ubuntu-quality mailing list
> Ubuntu-quality@lists.ubuntu.com
> Modify settings or unsubscribe at:
> https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-quality
>
>
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Re: Ubuntu Quality Assurance (testing and bug triage)

[Jackson Doak]

welcome chris, you seem to have joined at the perfect time, we have
classroom sessions for ubuntu testing in the next two weeks. have you got
an irc client? if so i will talk you you there.

Noskcaj


On Fri, Jan 4, 2013 at 11:47 AM, chris wagner wrote:

> I am Christopher Wagner and i dont have much expertise in this areah but i
> will be as helpfull as i possably can.
>
> --
> lovin life hating haters
> --
> Ubuntu-quality mailing list
> Ubuntu-quality@lists.ubuntu.com
> Modify settings or unsubscribe at:
> https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-quality
>
>
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Ubuntu Quality Assurance (testing and bug triage)

[chris wagner]

I am Christopher Wagner and i dont have much expertise in this areah but i
will be as helpfull as i possably can.

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Re: [Lubuntu-qa] Chromium eating memory

[Phill Whiteside]

Hi Micah and Chad,

We are seeing an issue with Chromium on low RAM systems where we get "It's
dead Jim" issues. At first I believed this to be a Chromium memory leak,
but it does not affect all web pages [1]. I have tried to report this via
[2] which errorred out with 'mal formed request', trying to use the 'learn
more' and trying to report an error in the failed window also resulted in
the same. Even more odd (to me) was that leaving the tabs open ended up in
them giving the "It's dead Jim" error on the tab. Just as a check in my own
logic, I opened up a launchpad bug tab for a bug. This tab, over several
days & resets of other tabs that had to be reset never once failed.

Apologies for the long introduction. Is there anything I can add to the
system to try and get some details for you guys to work off? gdb I have
been intimated at, is not really suited for a memory leak; but as I don't
think it is a memory leak and Chromium still runs with the tabs still
'alive' would it be of use to use gdb to trace back an PiD?

Assuming you don't have a machine that you can pull memory chips out of,
until you have 512Mb of RAM (The guys with these machines are the ones who
1st reported it)..

1. Create a VM with 512 Mb RAM
2. Install Lubuntu (I suggest using alternate at such low RAM) [3] - I've
also tried this with Raring
3. Open a couple of tabs, e.g. BBC News [4] and a bug report [5] - Well, it
was a chromium bug :)
4. Open a couple of other tabs for sites you know to be stable - Remember,
you are on a low-RAM system, nothing too exotic!
5. Wait.
6. Tabs will report "It's dead Jim".. - This may take several hours - Tab
opened with [5] will stay working.

Us testers are stuck to try to progress and any help you can give to help
log the bug correctly in order that it can be progressed is needed. I've
tried installing the dev chromium instead of the 'new' chromium in the
repos, the effect is the same.

Regards,

Phill.
1. http://imagebin.org/241095
2. https://code.google.com/p/chromium/issues/list
3. https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Lubuntu/Alternate_ISO
4. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/
5. https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/chromium-browser/+bug/1084852
On 30 December 2012 20:22, Lars Noodén  wrote:

> On 12/30/2012 06:31 PM, Phill Whiteside wrote:
> > Hi Lars,
> >
> > just checked the VM...
> >
> > http://imagebin.org/241095
> >
> > I think that says it all!
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Phill.
>
> Yep.  I get that too, but it's probably a separate.  When I have a lot
> of tabs open it is not uncommon for most to be dead.  What does top (or
> anything else) say about system resources and swap?
>
> Regards,
> /Lars
>
>


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Re: Proposal to merge #ubuntu-quality and #ubuntu-bugs

[C de-Avillez]

On Thursday, January 03, 2013 18:14:53 Omer Akram wrote:
> Hi All
> 
> Just recently there started a discussion on Ubuntu bug squad list about
> less people getting involved in bug triage along the discussion there were
> a few points raised which let me to put the idea of merging #ubuntu-quality
> and #ubuntu-bugs into one. Ultimately both have the same goal that is
> talking about quality in Ubuntu.

As said already elsewhere, joining -bugs and -quality is not ideal. Bugs (and 
triaging) is a subset of quality, and has specific issues; conflating both 
together is prone to generate more noise, with very specific discussions 
derailing the overall view of quality control/assurance.

Perhaps it would be more productive to review the whole process of bugs, 
triaging, etc.

For example:

* lack of quality/detail/references on bugs. A lot of bugs do not state the 
bare minimum needed (like Ubuntu version, package version, etc). Many, even 
when set to triaged, lack details on how to reproduce.

* lack of responsible parties. We should have teams/groups/whatever-you-want-
to-call-them that are responsible for triaging, tagging, raising attention on 
"areas of interest". One such area of interest could be, for example, the 
Ubuntu version (bugs that affect Lucid, or Precise, etc), another could be 
technology (email clients, email servers, browsers, KDE, Gnome (both under the 
Gnome shell and under Unity)), and so on.

* expanding apport hook usage. A *lot* of packages do not have apport hooks. 
The infrastructure is there, we need to use it.

* reviewing the bug work processes, and re-adjusting them. Bugs are technical 
reports of problems, and should be looked at, and worked on, as such. So, 
bugs.lp.net should not be the entry point for an user having a problem -- 
perhaps, answers.ubuntu.com should be it, and bugs would then be "promoted" 
from a.u.c.

And so on.

But -- let it be clear -- I agree with Omer: we have to do something.

Cheers,

..C..



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Re: Proposal to merge #ubuntu-quality and #ubuntu-bugs

[Brendan Donegan]

On 03/01/13 16:44, Charlie Kravetz wrote:

On Thu, 3 Jan 2013 21:08:44 +0500
Omer Akram  wrote:


I would say that then the word ubuntu-quality is a bit too broad than its
actual purpose, i should have researched more but i did think they were not
limited to ISO testing only. As you stated that's not the case then its a
bit of misunderstanding about #ubuntu-quality on my end.


On Thu, Jan 3, 2013 at 9:01 PM, Thomas Ward  wrote:


On Thu, Jan 3, 2013 at 9:40 AM, Micah Gersten  wrote:

On 01/03/2013 07:14 AM, Omer Akram wrote:

Hi All

Just recently there started a discussion on Ubuntu bug squad list
about less people getting involved in bug triage along the discussion
there were a few points raised which let me to put the idea of merging
#ubuntu-quality and #ubuntu-bugs into one. Ultimately both have the
same goal that is talking about quality in Ubuntu.

At time people testing Ubuntu ISO will raise their bugs in
#ubuntu-quality and discussions may take place there. People may or
may not be available in both channels but since I believe people do
talk mostly about bug reports in those channels (though
#ubuntu-quality do have other topics as well) but I think merging them
will make a few things easier one will be that there will be mostly a
unified place for people to talk about bugs (i know people may talk in
#ubuntu+1 or #ubuntu-desktop as well but those channels have their own
reasons for exisitance)

Here I might not have a lot of point to argue plus I am never great
with words but the overall notion is that I believe that it will
result in a benefit for Ubuntu due to having a concentrated place to
talk bugs.

Thoughts/Suggestions/Pros/Cons all welcome and appreciated

Thanks!


I'm not sure I agree with this.  #ubuntu-bugs is specifically for bug
triage, whereas #ubuntu-quality seems to not have a defined topic.
Whereas I'm likely to watch #ubuntu-bugs for people who need help with
triage, I'm not necessarily interested in most of what happens with
image testing and the issues that arise from it.  This is not to say
that I don't care, rather that I'm not necessarily going to commit my
time to such issues.
You could in theory condense #ubuntu-devel, -desktop, and -release into
quality as well as the goal is quality, but I don't see that as being
productive.
Thanks,
Micah

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I am in full agreement with Micah, what #ubuntu-quality does is ISO
testing and other ISO/image related testing, and not necessarily bug
triage.  I lurk in both #ubuntu-bugs and #ubuntu-quality.  The
channels have separate goals.  And in #ubuntu-bugs, I'm also more than
happy to help out with bug triaging, but I don't want to see ISO
testing bugs and related stuff in #ubuntu-bugs either.

Since not everyone's responding to both the BugSquad and
ubuntu-quality lists, I've sent this response to both.

--
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Ubuntu BugSquad Member

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I was against the name change for testing to quality when it happened,
and I still believe the main results is confusion. quality in most
places is short for "quality assurance" or "quality control". Neither
applies to ubuntu testing alone.
In the case of this list, '-quality' definitely expands to 'quality 
assurance' - as most of us know it was only 2 months ago that the list 
was called 'ubuntu-qa' standing for just that :) That being the case, if 
we are not doing 'quality assurance' then we definitely should be. The 
meaning of quality assurance is a set of procedures that *in theory* can 
provide a level of assurance that the product is of good quality. 
Conflating that with all software development practices which could 
impact on quality leads to far too broad a definition. If you like, QA 
tells you how your software is broken and bug triage is part of the 
process of fixing it.

However, in Ubuntu, ubuntu-quality is
simply a new name for testing. It is not a name to cover all quality of
the product.

With this definition in mind, to combine both quality and bug-triage
would be wrong, since triage and testing do not mean the same things.
Until Canonical decides once again that Quality means more than testing
a product, this can not happen.




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Re: Proposal to merge #ubuntu-quality and #ubuntu-bugs

[Charlie Kravetz]

On Thu, 3 Jan 2013 21:08:44 +0500
Omer Akram  wrote:

> I would say that then the word ubuntu-quality is a bit too broad than its
> actual purpose, i should have researched more but i did think they were not
> limited to ISO testing only. As you stated that's not the case then its a
> bit of misunderstanding about #ubuntu-quality on my end.
> 
> 
> On Thu, Jan 3, 2013 at 9:01 PM, Thomas Ward  wrote:
> 
> > On Thu, Jan 3, 2013 at 9:40 AM, Micah Gersten  wrote:
> > > On 01/03/2013 07:14 AM, Omer Akram wrote:
> > >> Hi All
> > >>
> > >> Just recently there started a discussion on Ubuntu bug squad list
> > >> about less people getting involved in bug triage along the discussion
> > >> there were a few points raised which let me to put the idea of merging
> > >> #ubuntu-quality and #ubuntu-bugs into one. Ultimately both have the
> > >> same goal that is talking about quality in Ubuntu.
> > >>
> > >> At time people testing Ubuntu ISO will raise their bugs in
> > >> #ubuntu-quality and discussions may take place there. People may or
> > >> may not be available in both channels but since I believe people do
> > >> talk mostly about bug reports in those channels (though
> > >> #ubuntu-quality do have other topics as well) but I think merging them
> > >> will make a few things easier one will be that there will be mostly a
> > >> unified place for people to talk about bugs (i know people may talk in
> > >> #ubuntu+1 or #ubuntu-desktop as well but those channels have their own
> > >> reasons for exisitance)
> > >>
> > >> Here I might not have a lot of point to argue plus I am never great
> > >> with words but the overall notion is that I believe that it will
> > >> result in a benefit for Ubuntu due to having a concentrated place to
> > >> talk bugs.
> > >>
> > >> Thoughts/Suggestions/Pros/Cons all welcome and appreciated
> > >>
> > >> Thanks!
> > >>
> > > I'm not sure I agree with this.  #ubuntu-bugs is specifically for bug
> > > triage, whereas #ubuntu-quality seems to not have a defined topic.
> > > Whereas I'm likely to watch #ubuntu-bugs for people who need help with
> > > triage, I'm not necessarily interested in most of what happens with
> > > image testing and the issues that arise from it.  This is not to say
> > > that I don't care, rather that I'm not necessarily going to commit my
> > > time to such issues.
> > > You could in theory condense #ubuntu-devel, -desktop, and -release into
> > > quality as well as the goal is quality, but I don't see that as being
> > > productive.
> > > Thanks,
> > > Micah
> > >
> > > --
> > > Ubuntu-bugsquad mailing list
> > > ubuntu-bugsq...@lists.ubuntu.com
> > > https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugsquad
> >
> > I am in full agreement with Micah, what #ubuntu-quality does is ISO
> > testing and other ISO/image related testing, and not necessarily bug
> > triage.  I lurk in both #ubuntu-bugs and #ubuntu-quality.  The
> > channels have separate goals.  And in #ubuntu-bugs, I'm also more than
> > happy to help out with bug triaging, but I don't want to see ISO
> > testing bugs and related stuff in #ubuntu-bugs either.
> >
> > Since not everyone's responding to both the BugSquad and
> > ubuntu-quality lists, I've sent this response to both.
> >
> > --
> > Thomas
> > Ubuntu BugSquad Member
> >
> > --
> > Ubuntu-bugsquad mailing list
> > ubuntu-bugsq...@lists.ubuntu.com
> > https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugsquad
> >

I was against the name change for testing to quality when it happened,
and I still believe the main results is confusion. quality in most
places is short for "quality assurance" or "quality control". Neither
applies to ubuntu testing alone. However, in Ubuntu, ubuntu-quality is
simply a new name for testing. It is not a name to cover all quality of
the product.

With this definition in mind, to combine both quality and bug-triage
would be wrong, since triage and testing do not mean the same things.
Until Canonical decides once again that Quality means more than testing
a product, this can not happen.

-- 
Charlie Kravetz 
Linux Registered User Number 425914  [http://counter.li.org/]
Never let anyone steal your DREAM.   [http://keepingdreams.com]

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Re: Proposal to merge #ubuntu-quality and #ubuntu-bugs

[Nicholas Skaggs]

Thanks for the lovely chat on irc Omer. I wish you the best on your 
efforts to help the bug squad. As we spoke about, while our end goals 
are similar (as with all the ubuntu teams), our focus is different and 
should remain separate to allow us to work effectively.


Cheers,

Nicholas

On 01/03/2013 11:08 AM, Omer Akram wrote:
I would say that then the word ubuntu-quality is a bit too broad than 
its actual purpose, i should have researched more but i did think they 
were not limited to ISO testing only. As you stated that's not the 
case then its a bit of misunderstanding about #ubuntu-quality on my end.



On Thu, Jan 3, 2013 at 9:01 PM, Thomas Ward > wrote:


On Thu, Jan 3, 2013 at 9:40 AM, Micah Gersten mailto:mic...@ubuntu.com>> wrote:
> On 01/03/2013 07:14 AM, Omer Akram wrote:
>> Hi All
>>
>> Just recently there started a discussion on Ubuntu bug squad list
>> about less people getting involved in bug triage along the
discussion
>> there were a few points raised which let me to put the idea of
merging
>> #ubuntu-quality and #ubuntu-bugs into one. Ultimately both have the
>> same goal that is talking about quality in Ubuntu.
>>
>> At time people testing Ubuntu ISO will raise their bugs in
>> #ubuntu-quality and discussions may take place there. People may or
>> may not be available in both channels but since I believe people do
>> talk mostly about bug reports in those channels (though
>> #ubuntu-quality do have other topics as well) but I think
merging them
>> will make a few things easier one will be that there will be
mostly a
>> unified place for people to talk about bugs (i know people may
talk in
>> #ubuntu+1 or #ubuntu-desktop as well but those channels have
their own
>> reasons for exisitance)
>>
>> Here I might not have a lot of point to argue plus I am never great
>> with words but the overall notion is that I believe that it will
>> result in a benefit for Ubuntu due to having a concentrated
place to
>> talk bugs.
>>
>> Thoughts/Suggestions/Pros/Cons all welcome and appreciated
>>
>> Thanks!
>>
> I'm not sure I agree with this.  #ubuntu-bugs is specifically
for bug
> triage, whereas #ubuntu-quality seems to not have a defined topic.
> Whereas I'm likely to watch #ubuntu-bugs for people who need
help with
> triage, I'm not necessarily interested in most of what happens with
> image testing and the issues that arise from it.  This is not to say
> that I don't care, rather that I'm not necessarily going to
commit my
> time to such issues.
> You could in theory condense #ubuntu-devel, -desktop, and
-release into
> quality as well as the goal is quality, but I don't see that as
being
> productive.
> Thanks,
> Micah
>
> --
> Ubuntu-bugsquad mailing list
> ubuntu-bugsq...@lists.ubuntu.com

> https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugsquad

I am in full agreement with Micah, what #ubuntu-quality does is ISO
testing and other ISO/image related testing, and not necessarily bug
triage.  I lurk in both #ubuntu-bugs and #ubuntu-quality.  The
channels have separate goals.  And in #ubuntu-bugs, I'm also more than
happy to help out with bug triaging, but I don't want to see ISO
testing bugs and related stuff in #ubuntu-bugs either.

Since not everyone's responding to both the BugSquad and
ubuntu-quality lists, I've sent this response to both.

--
Thomas
Ubuntu BugSquad Member

--
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Re: Proposal to merge #ubuntu-quality and #ubuntu-bugs

[Thomas Ward]

On Thu, Jan 3, 2013 at 9:40 AM, Micah Gersten  wrote:
> On 01/03/2013 07:14 AM, Omer Akram wrote:
>> Hi All
>>
>> Just recently there started a discussion on Ubuntu bug squad list
>> about less people getting involved in bug triage along the discussion
>> there were a few points raised which let me to put the idea of merging
>> #ubuntu-quality and #ubuntu-bugs into one. Ultimately both have the
>> same goal that is talking about quality in Ubuntu.
>>
>> At time people testing Ubuntu ISO will raise their bugs in
>> #ubuntu-quality and discussions may take place there. People may or
>> may not be available in both channels but since I believe people do
>> talk mostly about bug reports in those channels (though
>> #ubuntu-quality do have other topics as well) but I think merging them
>> will make a few things easier one will be that there will be mostly a
>> unified place for people to talk about bugs (i know people may talk in
>> #ubuntu+1 or #ubuntu-desktop as well but those channels have their own
>> reasons for exisitance)
>>
>> Here I might not have a lot of point to argue plus I am never great
>> with words but the overall notion is that I believe that it will
>> result in a benefit for Ubuntu due to having a concentrated place to
>> talk bugs.
>>
>> Thoughts/Suggestions/Pros/Cons all welcome and appreciated
>>
>> Thanks!
>>
> I'm not sure I agree with this.  #ubuntu-bugs is specifically for bug
> triage, whereas #ubuntu-quality seems to not have a defined topic.
> Whereas I'm likely to watch #ubuntu-bugs for people who need help with
> triage, I'm not necessarily interested in most of what happens with
> image testing and the issues that arise from it.  This is not to say
> that I don't care, rather that I'm not necessarily going to commit my
> time to such issues.
> You could in theory condense #ubuntu-devel, -desktop, and -release into
> quality as well as the goal is quality, but I don't see that as being
> productive.
> Thanks,
> Micah
>
> --
> Ubuntu-bugsquad mailing list
> ubuntu-bugsq...@lists.ubuntu.com
> https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugsquad

I am in full agreement with Micah, what #ubuntu-quality does is ISO
testing and other ISO/image related testing, and not necessarily bug
triage.  I lurk in both #ubuntu-bugs and #ubuntu-quality.  The
channels have separate goals.  And in #ubuntu-bugs, I'm also more than
happy to help out with bug triaging, but I don't want to see ISO
testing bugs and related stuff in #ubuntu-bugs either.

Since not everyone's responding to both the BugSquad and
ubuntu-quality lists, I've sent this response to both.

--
Thomas
Ubuntu BugSquad Member

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Re: Proposal to merge #ubuntu-quality and #ubuntu-bugs

[Micah Gersten]

On 01/03/2013 07:14 AM, Omer Akram wrote:
> Hi All
>
> Just recently there started a discussion on Ubuntu bug squad list
> about less people getting involved in bug triage along the discussion
> there were a few points raised which let me to put the idea of merging
> #ubuntu-quality and #ubuntu-bugs into one. Ultimately both have the
> same goal that is talking about quality in Ubuntu. 
>
> At time people testing Ubuntu ISO will raise their bugs in
> #ubuntu-quality and discussions may take place there. People may or
> may not be available in both channels but since I believe people do
> talk mostly about bug reports in those channels (though
> #ubuntu-quality do have other topics as well) but I think merging them
> will make a few things easier one will be that there will be mostly a
> unified place for people to talk about bugs (i know people may talk in
> #ubuntu+1 or #ubuntu-desktop as well but those channels have their own
> reasons for exisitance)
>
> Here I might not have a lot of point to argue plus I am never great
> with words but the overall notion is that I believe that it will
> result in a benefit for Ubuntu due to having a concentrated place to
> talk bugs.
>
> Thoughts/Suggestions/Pros/Cons all welcome and appreciated
>
> Thanks!
>
I'm not sure I agree with this.  #ubuntu-bugs is specifically for bug
triage, whereas #ubuntu-quality seems to not have a defined topic. 
Whereas I'm likely to watch #ubuntu-bugs for people who need help with
triage, I'm not necessarily interested in most of what happens with
image testing and the issues that arise from it.  This is not to say
that I don't care, rather that I'm not necessarily going to commit my
time to such issues.
You could in theory condense #ubuntu-devel, -desktop, and -release into
quality as well as the goal is quality, but I don't see that as being
productive.
Thanks,
Micah

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Re: Proposal to merge #ubuntu-quality and #ubuntu-bugs

[Omer Akram]

I would say that then the word ubuntu-quality is a bit too broad than its
actual purpose, i should have researched more but i did think they were not
limited to ISO testing only. As you stated that's not the case then its a
bit of misunderstanding about #ubuntu-quality on my end.


On Thu, Jan 3, 2013 at 9:01 PM, Thomas Ward  wrote:

> On Thu, Jan 3, 2013 at 9:40 AM, Micah Gersten  wrote:
> > On 01/03/2013 07:14 AM, Omer Akram wrote:
> >> Hi All
> >>
> >> Just recently there started a discussion on Ubuntu bug squad list
> >> about less people getting involved in bug triage along the discussion
> >> there were a few points raised which let me to put the idea of merging
> >> #ubuntu-quality and #ubuntu-bugs into one. Ultimately both have the
> >> same goal that is talking about quality in Ubuntu.
> >>
> >> At time people testing Ubuntu ISO will raise their bugs in
> >> #ubuntu-quality and discussions may take place there. People may or
> >> may not be available in both channels but since I believe people do
> >> talk mostly about bug reports in those channels (though
> >> #ubuntu-quality do have other topics as well) but I think merging them
> >> will make a few things easier one will be that there will be mostly a
> >> unified place for people to talk about bugs (i know people may talk in
> >> #ubuntu+1 or #ubuntu-desktop as well but those channels have their own
> >> reasons for exisitance)
> >>
> >> Here I might not have a lot of point to argue plus I am never great
> >> with words but the overall notion is that I believe that it will
> >> result in a benefit for Ubuntu due to having a concentrated place to
> >> talk bugs.
> >>
> >> Thoughts/Suggestions/Pros/Cons all welcome and appreciated
> >>
> >> Thanks!
> >>
> > I'm not sure I agree with this.  #ubuntu-bugs is specifically for bug
> > triage, whereas #ubuntu-quality seems to not have a defined topic.
> > Whereas I'm likely to watch #ubuntu-bugs for people who need help with
> > triage, I'm not necessarily interested in most of what happens with
> > image testing and the issues that arise from it.  This is not to say
> > that I don't care, rather that I'm not necessarily going to commit my
> > time to such issues.
> > You could in theory condense #ubuntu-devel, -desktop, and -release into
> > quality as well as the goal is quality, but I don't see that as being
> > productive.
> > Thanks,
> > Micah
> >
> > --
> > Ubuntu-bugsquad mailing list
> > ubuntu-bugsq...@lists.ubuntu.com
> > https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugsquad
>
> I am in full agreement with Micah, what #ubuntu-quality does is ISO
> testing and other ISO/image related testing, and not necessarily bug
> triage.  I lurk in both #ubuntu-bugs and #ubuntu-quality.  The
> channels have separate goals.  And in #ubuntu-bugs, I'm also more than
> happy to help out with bug triaging, but I don't want to see ISO
> testing bugs and related stuff in #ubuntu-bugs either.
>
> Since not everyone's responding to both the BugSquad and
> ubuntu-quality lists, I've sent this response to both.
>
> --
> Thomas
> Ubuntu BugSquad Member
>
> --
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> https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugsquad
>
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Re: Proposal to merge #ubuntu-quality and #ubuntu-bugs

[Gema Gomez]

On 03/01/13 13:14, Omer Akram wrote:
> Hi All
> 
> Just recently there started a discussion on Ubuntu bug squad list about
> less people getting involved in bug triage along the discussion there
> were a few points raised which let me to put the idea of merging
> #ubuntu-quality and #ubuntu-bugs into one. Ultimately both have the same
> goal that is talking about quality in Ubuntu. 
> 

Why don't you propose to them to simplify the process of joining the
team? Have they done that lately?

Gema


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Re: Proposal to merge #ubuntu-quality and #ubuntu-bugs

[Adolfo Jayme Barrientos]

On Thu, Jan 3, 2013 at 7:14 AM, Omer Akram  wrote:
> Just recently there started a discussion on Ubuntu bug squad list about less
> people getting involved in bug triage along the discussion there were a few
> points raised which let me to put the idea of merging #ubuntu-quality and
> #ubuntu-bugs into one. Ultimately both have the same goal that is talking
> about quality in Ubuntu.

Yeah, why not?

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Re: Proposal to merge #ubuntu-quality and #ubuntu-bugs

[Gema Gomez]

On 03/01/13 13:14, Omer Akram wrote:
> Hi All
> 
> Just recently there started a discussion on Ubuntu bug squad list about
> less people getting involved in bug triage along the discussion there
> were a few points raised which let me to put the idea of merging
> #ubuntu-quality and #ubuntu-bugs into one. Ultimately both have the same
> goal that is talking about quality in Ubuntu. 
> 
> At time people testing Ubuntu ISO will raise their bugs in
> #ubuntu-quality and discussions may take place there. People may or may
> not be available in both channels but since I believe people do talk
> mostly about bug reports in those channels (though #ubuntu-quality do
> have other topics as well) but I think merging them will make a few
> things easier one will be that there will be mostly a unified place for
> people to talk about bugs (i know people may talk in #ubuntu+1 or
> #ubuntu-desktop as well but those channels have their own reasons for
> exisitance)
> 
> Here I might not have a lot of point to argue plus I am never great with
> words but the overall notion is that I believe that it will result in a
> benefit for Ubuntu due to having a concentrated place to talk bugs.
> 
> Thoughts/Suggestions/Pros/Cons all welcome and appreciated
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> 

Hi Omer,

thanks for raising this point, I think it is important to keep in mind
why those two lists are separated and why they should stay separated, in
my opinion. I remember when I started to do Ubuntu QA, back in Oneiric,
we used to have a common meeting where bugs and QA were discussed
together because it seemed to "make sense" but I don't think it did, let
me try to explain why.

I agree that we all want to raise the quality of Ubuntu, but you could
use that same argument to merge ubuntu-devel into ubuntu-quality because
developers are fixing the bugs we find to make Ubuntu better... right?
But surely that doesn't resonate so well with you and I am sure it
wouldn't with most people in ubuntu-devel either.

I think both groups, quality and bug squad, have different aims and
different working practices and they need to be kept apart even if some
people from both groups have interests in both and want to keep up with
both areas, they are compatible, but not to be confused with each other.

Our job is to make sure Ubuntu works well under all sorts of conditions
and whenever necessary raise good bugs that the ubuntu squad can route
to the right developers for them to be fixed. Their job is prioritize
the bugs and make them visible to the developers so that they get fixed.
I'd argue that is not always happening, but then there are so many bugs
in launchpad that it is by no means and easy task.

In my view, two completely separate interests and aims: we should be
creating new, better test cases as we go, they should be finding new,
better ways to classify and manage bugs so that they get the right
attention and get diligently fixed.

Bug management falls closer to development than to QA, or maybe just in
between the two of them. Both important tasks, both very different in
nature. If they don't have a lot of people to do bug triaging, maybe we
could help them refocus their efforts by scheduling a meeting to hear
the concerns and problems and suggest solutions, but I don't think
merging the two groups again will fix their issues or ours.

Thanks,
Gema
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Ubuntu QA Team   https://launchpad.net/~gema.gomez
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Re: Proposal to merge #ubuntu-quality and #ubuntu-bugs

[Mikhail Sobolev]

Hi,

On Thu, Jan 03, 2013 at 06:14:53PM +0500, Omer Akram wrote:
> Just recently there started a discussion on Ubuntu bug squad list about
> less people getting involved in bug triage along the discussion there were
> a few points raised which let me to put the idea of merging #ubuntu-quality
> and #ubuntu-bugs into one. Ultimately both have the same goal that is
> talking about quality in Ubuntu.
As long as the "merge" results in ubuntu-quality, I'd agree.  Yes, the
goal seems to be the same, however "quality" has a bit broader meaning
than just "bugs".

My 0.02 [euro]cents, "quality" aims to define how the things can be made
the best, while "bugs" show whether the way of doing it has any
deficiencies (and, yes, testing is one of the possible ways to not only
find discrepancies in the actual software but also to identify what's
missing from "the way" to ensure that the result of the anticipated
quality).

> Here I might not have a lot of point to argue plus I am never great with
> words but the overall notion is that I believe that it will result in a
> benefit for Ubuntu due to having a concentrated place to talk bugs.
I agree that a "concentrated place" to talk about _quality_ would be
of a better value as people would be able not only to see what's not
working as expected, but also to generalise and suggest how to avoid
that in future.

--
Misha


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Proposal to merge #ubuntu-quality and #ubuntu-bugs

[Omer Akram]

Hi All

Just recently there started a discussion on Ubuntu bug squad list about
less people getting involved in bug triage along the discussion there were
a few points raised which let me to put the idea of merging #ubuntu-quality
and #ubuntu-bugs into one. Ultimately both have the same goal that is
talking about quality in Ubuntu.

At time people testing Ubuntu ISO will raise their bugs in #ubuntu-quality
and discussions may take place there. People may or may not be available in
both channels but since I believe people do talk mostly about bug reports
in those channels (though #ubuntu-quality do have other topics as well) but
I think merging them will make a few things easier one will be that there
will be mostly a unified place for people to talk about bugs (i know people
may talk in #ubuntu+1 or #ubuntu-desktop as well but those channels have
their own reasons for exisitance)

Here I might not have a lot of point to argue plus I am never great with
words but the overall notion is that I believe that it will result in a
benefit for Ubuntu due to having a concentrated place to talk bugs.

Thoughts/Suggestions/Pros/Cons all welcome and appreciated

Thanks!
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