Re: I'm stopping contributing

[Svetlana Belkin]

On 06/06/2017 07:51 PM, C de-Avillez wrote:

Let me be clear on this: I*know*  the Reporting Bugs is a mess. I
*agree*  the pages have to be re-organised, cleaned up, re-written


Sorry if this is a useless plug and/or wrong place but I don't follow 
the bug mailing list.  Having that said, instead of the wiki, after it's 
re-written to make more sense, would be worth it to have those pages on 
community.u.c or help.u.c?  Just a thought here.

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Odp: Re: I'm stopping contributing

[Marcin Xc]

As I wrote in my previous message Alberto though You shouldn't record movies, I 
support You with all my heart. Some developer told me once "Unity was intuitive 
and was tested". My answer was: give a Mate desktop to a 5year old child which 
can't read and tell him to start a game. No problem in Mate, mission impossible 
in Unity. I slowed down my contribution for Ubuntu with the 12.04 release cause 
I'm like a good market player who sees which company/project is worth 
investing. It was clear for me that Unity will not succeed.
Ubuntu 11.xx was one of the first and last releases where Bluetooth used to 
work correctly and without problems with all devices. Someone decided to 
replace that working packages with new ones: bug reports for this decision are 
open till today and Ubuntu payed for that a few months ago with Ubuntu Touch 
project. Someone wanted to built convergence devices without working Bluetooth. 
"First things first"! I know development is needed to not finish the way Nokia 
did but I support with all my heart Alberto: someone make thoughtless decisions 
who makes system unreliable and unstable. I caused that many people stoped 
using Windows and started using Linux but if I had installed them Ubuntu 
version from 12.04 they would have come back to Windows. I do not agree with 
Your Greenpeace comparison but I can confirm that Ubuntu as a system for people 
is dead. Ubuntu is a system for playing developers who show their fantasy 
without respect for an end user. I thank God that there are still people like 
guys from Ubuntu Mate who just show respect for end users.
Cheers
Marcin


 
 
  Dnia śr., cze 7, 2017 o 1:03, Alberto Salvia Novella 
napisał:   Speaking about the Roman's king, I have just received this email 
from a 
familiar which I have installed Ubuntu:

Cousin:
 > It gets worse every time, especially at start-up, it hangs and
 > needs to restart.


Other mentions in the latests two months:

Father:
 > It usually hangs at start-up, and mouse stops working from time to
 > time.

Friend:
 > Ubuntu was no longer booting up. I needed it for my end of career
 > work, so you know what I did? Removed it and installed Windows 10.


So it seems that all of these happens nearly all of the time:
(https://askubuntu.com/questions/760934/graphics-issues-after-while-installing-ubuntu-16-04-16-10-with-nvidia-graphics)

Root cause: nobody is reporting bugs and nobody is triaging them, as 
it's too hard to read the manuals. And people won't allow the needed 
change because of:

(https://plus.google.com/+AlbertoSalviaNovella/posts/6fmD4E2vKfP)

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Re: I'm stopping contributing

[C de-Avillez]

On Tue, 6 Jun 2017 21:57:55 +0200
Alberto Salvia Novella  wrote:

> Speaking about the Roman's king, I have just received this email from
> a familiar which I have installed Ubuntu:
> 
> Cousin:
>  > It gets worse every time, especially at start-up, it hangs and
>  > needs to restart.  
> 
> 
> Other mentions in the latests two months:
> 
> Father:
>  > It usually hangs at start-up, and mouse stops working from time to
>  > time.  
> 
> Friend:
>  > Ubuntu was no longer booting up. I needed it for my end of career
>  > work, so you know what I did? Removed it and installed Windows
>  > 10.  

So would you open a bug with the following description:

"it gets worse every time, specially at start-up, it hangs and needs to
restart"

What are we supposed to do with this bug?

> So it seems that all of these happens nearly all of the time:
> (https://askubuntu.com/questions/760934/graphics-issues-after-while-installing-ubuntu-16-04-16-10-with-nvidia-graphics)

Ah. So these are all symptoms of a nVidia driver issue? I agree this is
a bug. The problem -- specifically for nVidia -- is: who fixes it? It is
closed source, so we cannot; or it depends (as what happened on 16.04
release) on a future kernel support, at the time to be coded, tested,
and released (perhaps some of us would be able to code it in; I am not,
though.

I also do not know if this has been solved, I left nVida a
long time ago because I was tired of their crappy coding and
continuous bugs.

I am pretty sure there are already many nVidia bugs recorded in LP,
still open. I wonder what having more of them (supposing all new bugs
are clearly set against nVidia, not against Ubuntu, or other wrong
package) would help.

> Root cause: nobody is reporting bugs and nobody is triaging them, as 
> it's too hard to read the manuals.

Wrong root cause, but let's move on.

So, by all means, let's re-write the Reporting Bugs wiki and related
pages.

But keep in mind my point, throughout this series of email threads: it
does NOT help triagers and maintainers to have a LOT of badly-reported
bugs. We need *good quality* bugs. 

[A good start on re-writing, perhaps, would be adding a list of
high-impact bugs, that people can look at and add a "me too" if their
bug fits). For whatever definition of "high-impact".]

But what you proposed is not a good re-write, as far as I can see it.
You proposed to simplify to such a point the reporting bugs could as
well be written as "go to LP and write whatever you want". There. One
single line (if you replace "LP" by the correct link). Which is BAD bug
reporting, but so what?

> And people won't allow the needed 
> change because of:
> 
> (https://plus.google.com/+AlbertoSalviaNovella/posts/6fmD4E2vKfP)

[Now I am completely lost. What does political correctness have to do
with good reporting of bugs? Anyway.]

For the record, "people won't allow the needed change" is wrong in a
few points:

* you have the power to re-write the wiki. Other people *also* have the
  power to undo what they perceive as wrong. The same right you have
  others have. If this escalates, some with more power will take
  whatever actions deemed necessary to stop the write/re-write cycle.

* or, perhaps, you want those that did not agree with you *NOT* to be
  able to do so?

* nobody prohibited you on working on the re-write. Many did not agree
  with it, I grant. But you were NOT, by a long shot, prohibited from
  giving a new view.

* what once happened was you changing a wiki page *without* a proposal,
  and doing it in a way that some that were working with it disagreed.
  This was, indeed, *your* fault: you do not, unilaterally, change
  something that is used by a lot of people. You *propose* your
  changes, and reach a consensus.

* but you do not seem to want a consensus. You want *your* way, or the
  highway. This is not how a community, be it a democracy or
  meritocracy, works. This is, on the other hand, how dictatorships
  work.

So what you have experienced is /not/ people not allowing the "needed
change", it was people -- community members just like you -- disagreeing
with your proposed changes.

Let me be clear on this: I *know* the Reporting Bugs is a mess. I
*agree* the pages have to be re-organised, cleaned up, re-written. I
*disagree* with your approach, for reasons already discussed ad nauseam.

But this is *my* view. OK, I agree it is biased by my years of
technical support. But it is still my view. Personal. I do not speak,
formally,  for the project -- I have no authority to do so. But I *do*
speak in the community based on my personal interest in bugs and
triaging. After all, I am a member of this community -- which, by the
way, would be as true if I were not to be an official Ubuntu member(as
you also are).

Cheers,

..C..




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Re: I'm stopping contributing

[Alberto Salvia Novella]

Speaking about the Roman's king, I have just received this email from a 
familiar which I have installed Ubuntu:


Cousin:
> It gets worse every time, especially at start-up, it hangs and
> needs to restart.


Other mentions in the latests two months:

Father:
> It usually hangs at start-up, and mouse stops working from time to
> time.

Friend:
> Ubuntu was no longer booting up. I needed it for my end of career
> work, so you know what I did? Removed it and installed Windows 10.


So it seems that all of these happens nearly all of the time:
(https://askubuntu.com/questions/760934/graphics-issues-after-while-installing-ubuntu-16-04-16-10-with-nvidia-graphics)

Root cause: nobody is reporting bugs and nobody is triaging them, as 
it's too hard to read the manuals. And people won't allow the needed 
change because of:


(https://plus.google.com/+AlbertoSalviaNovella/posts/6fmD4E2vKfP)


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Re: I'm stopping contributing

[Omer Akram]

Alberto, I have been following you closely for the past few years and
have always admired you for the fact that you have tried to keep the
bug control scene alive and have actively proposed new ideas.

Thank your for contributing and helping to make Ubuntu better.

On Sun, Jun 4, 2017 at 8:16 AM, Alberto Salvia Novella
 wrote:
> https://youtu.be/c7Vzg0svBXI
>
>
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