Re: I'm stopping contributing

[Alberto Salvia Novella]

Jono Bacon:
it is low bandwidth, you can access it on mobile phones, blind people 
can understand it with screen readers, multiple clients support it, you 
can do machine translation on it, etc.


Thanks for your input. I think this conversation has went a little 
through the roof, and better stepped away a little bit to regain 
perspective.


Right now I simply think text is better at those things, but only 
slightly better in practice. Not to make a choice based on it.


I just liked to have a way of communication which has the benefits of 
hangouts, while keeping some from email. Face to face, briefness, and 
the possibility to communicate when it better fits you.


Furthermore I think that's the future, and the way I liked to 
communicate and make business with anyone online.


We saw a jump from reading articles on the Internet to getting the same 
information through video, and I think the next logical step is having 
the same for communications. Just bandwidth wasn't good enough till 
recently to enable it, so still no software really supports that.


The jump will be from the social web to the interactive web. People 
instead of posting contents for others to consume, will interact through 
contents themselves. Because that's what really people is looking for, 
not spam from others but to interact with them.


Just my thoughts. Have a nice day.


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Re: I'm stopping contributing

[Jono Bacon]

Hi Alberto,

Thanks for the interesting discussion, and all the best in your future
endeavors!

Thanks,

On Thu, Jun 8, 2017 at 4:46 PM, Alberto Salvia Novella <
es204904...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Jono Bacon:
>
>> it is low bandwidth, you can access it on mobile phones, blind people can
>> understand it with screen readers, multiple clients support it, you can do
>> machine translation on it, etc.
>>
>
> Thanks for your input. I think this conversation has went a little through
> the roof, and better stepped away a little bit to regain perspective.
>
> Right now I simply think text is better at those things, but only slightly
> better in practice. Not to make a choice based on it.
>
> I just liked to have a way of communication which has the benefits of
> hangouts, while keeping some from email. Face to face, briefness, and the
> possibility to communicate when it better fits you.
>
> Furthermore I think that's the future, and the way I liked to communicate
> and make business with anyone online.
>
> We saw a jump from reading articles on the Internet to getting the same
> information through video, and I think the next logical step is having the
> same for communications. Just bandwidth wasn't good enough till recently to
> enable it, so still no software really supports that.
>
> The jump will be from the social web to the interactive web. People
> instead of posting contents for others to consume, will interact through
> contents themselves. Because that's what really people is looking for, not
> spam from others but to interact with them.
>
> Just my thoughts. Have a nice day.
>
>
>


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Re: I'm stopping contributing

[Alberto Salvia Novella]

Jono Bacon:
There is though a practicality issue of how people respond to content in 
a video.


Okay, text.


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Re: I'm stopping contributing

[Jono Bacon]

On Thu, Jun 8, 2017 at 12:43 PM, Alberto Salvia Novella <
es204904...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Alberto:
>
>> Okay, text.
>>
>
> Well, I really don't feel like it's something I wanted to do any more.
> Apart from if it practically makes sense or not.
>
> Simply I spend a big part of my time alone writing in front of a computer,
> and the latest thing that appeals to me is relating with people through
> text. More of the same thing.
>
> I simply don't see myself spending years and years like that, it's dull.
> Probably I would end avoiding the conversations. In fact this is what has
> been happening till now.
>
> As I said these emails takes me plenty of time to write. Moreover they
> make me worry if people are getting what I mean or not. So I tend to write
> longer and longer and longer, till the point the conversation no longer
> makes sense.
>
> In fact most people outside of this conjuncture says that they feel
> flattened when I took the time to answer like that. Probably we are
> reaching the tunnel effect, and close to make a quantum jump to a new
> dimension.
>
>
I also agree that sometimes writing text can be a little dull, but there
are two things to consider here: (1) what is the most effective way for an
individual to collaborate (what do you prefer), and (2) what is the most
effective way for a community to collaborate (what is the best thing for us
all together).

In many cases, the preference of the individual is not the preferred method
for the community. Speaking personally, I don't particularly enjoy mailing
list discussions. I get loads of email anyway, and I find doing yet more
email frustrating. I also enjoy 1-on-1 discussion via in-person meetings,
hangouts, and calls. The problem is, those in-person meetings and calls
simply don't scale.

Communities are a many-to-many entity. We have lots of people talking with
lots of other people, and what this results in is mediums that support a
many-to-many approach. Text is the most efficient way for people to
communicate in this manner for many reasons - it is low bandwidth, you can
access it on mobile phones, blind people can understand it with screen
readers, multiple clients support it, you can do machine translation on it,
etc. I entirely agree with you that it might not be as quick and accessible
and filming a video, but that is the compromise me make in a collaborative
community.

So, in summary, I agree with your frustrations with text, but as I said,
this is the compromise we make to ensure we have accessible forms of
communication for everyone. When someone comes up with something as
accessible as text which works for everyone, I will be the first to join!
:-)

Thanks,



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Re: I'm stopping contributing

[Alberto Salvia Novella]

Alberto:

Okay, text.


Well, I really don't feel like it's something I wanted to do any more. 
Apart from if it practically makes sense or not.


Simply I spend a big part of my time alone writing in front of a 
computer, and the latest thing that appeals to me is relating with 
people through text. More of the same thing.


I simply don't see myself spending years and years like that, it's dull. 
Probably I would end avoiding the conversations. In fact this is what 
has been happening till now.


As I said these emails takes me plenty of time to write. Moreover they 
make me worry if people are getting what I mean or not. So I tend to 
write longer and longer and longer, till the point the conversation no 
longer makes sense.


In fact most people outside of this conjuncture says that they feel 
flattened when I took the time to answer like that. Probably we are 
reaching the tunnel effect, and close to make a quantum jump to a new 
dimension.



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Re: I'm stopping contributing

[Ralph Figueroa]

Currently another so called lurker, sometime contributor here:

I am not for watching videos. If you have to do videos, that is fine: submit 
the transcriptions to the thread.   Most of us read emails in seconds and we 
can respond just as quick.

My thoughts.

Ralph aka 'RedWar'‎ , aka 'thegreatspace'

Sent from my BlackBerry 10 smartphone.
  Original Message  
From: Jeffrey Lane
Sent: Thursday, June 8, 2017 1:57 PM
To: Ian Bruntlett
Cc: Ubuntu Community Team; Ubuntu Quality Team; Ubuntu BugSquad; Jono Bacon
Subject: Re: I'm stopping contributing

On Thu, Jun 8, 2017 at 1:35 PM, Ian Bruntlett  wrote:
> Hi Jono,
>
> On 8 June 2017 at 17:22, Jono Bacon  wrote:
>
>> There is a huge amount of value in video communication, and it can be an
>> easier form of communication for non native-English speakers too.
>>
> Yes, I appreciate that. My point of view is that, whilst I would like to
> make time available to watch YouTube messages, I don't have the time.

This is my concern as well (my only concern). I simply don't have time
to devote to watching videos that range anywhere from 30 seconds to 30
minutes, when I could easily read/skim an email in a matter of
seconds.

My opinion may be a bit moot, as I'm more a lurker on mailing lists
these days, but I do try to follow interesting threads to stay current
on what's going on in the community, and there's a big discord for me
on this topic because I can only really see half the conversation.

Otherwise, as Jono says, live and let live.

> BW,
>
>
> Ian
>
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> -- My writing - https://sites.google.com/site/ianbruntlett/
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Re: I'm stopping contributing

[Jeffrey Lane]

On Thu, Jun 8, 2017 at 1:35 PM, Ian Bruntlett  wrote:
> Hi Jono,
>
> On 8 June 2017 at 17:22, Jono Bacon  wrote:
>
>> There is a huge amount of value in video communication, and it can be an
>> easier form of communication for non native-English speakers too.
>>
> Yes, I appreciate that. My point of view is that, whilst I would like to
> make time available to watch YouTube messages, I don't have the time.

This is my concern as well (my only concern). I simply don't have time
to devote to watching videos that range anywhere from 30 seconds to 30
minutes,  when I could easily read/skim an email in a matter of
seconds.

My opinion may be a bit moot, as I'm more a lurker on mailing lists
these days, but I do try to follow interesting threads to stay current
on what's going on in the community, and there's a big discord for me
on this topic because I can only really see half the conversation.

Otherwise, as Jono says, live and let live.

> BW,
>
>
> Ian
>
> --
> -- ACCU - Professionalism in programming - http://www.accu.org
> -- My writing - https://sites.google.com/site/ianbruntlett/
> -- Free Software page -
> https://sites.google.com/site/ianbruntlett/home/free-software
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Re: I'm stopping contributing

[Ian Bruntlett]

Hi Jono,

On 8 June 2017 at 17:22, Jono Bacon  wrote:

> There is a huge amount of value in video communication, and it can be an
> easier form of communication for non native-English speakers too.
>
Yes, I appreciate that. My point of view is that, whilst I would like to
make time available to watch YouTube messages, I don't have the time.

BW,


Ian

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Re: I'm stopping contributing

[Jono Bacon]

There is a huge amount of value in video communication, and it can be an
easier form of communication for non native-English speakers too.

This is though, a mailing list. It is a medium designed for *text*
discussion and collaboration. The purpose of a mailing list is to discuss
ideas, approaches, and problems in a way that the threads of the discussion
can be easily connected. When you throw in another medium (such as video,
audio, PDFs, presentation decks etc), it makes discussion (referencing and
responding to sub-points) way more complicated than it needs to be.

Trust me, I can't stand it when people are overly prescriptive about
communication...I am a firm believer in a "live and let live" approach in
how we communicate and share. As an example, note how I am top-posting. ;-)
There is though a practicality issue of how people respond to content in a
video. If Alberto makes a valid and salient point in one of his videos
(which he indeed has), it is difficult to reference and discuss that part
of that video. Sure, people could provide timestamps, but that will get
messy quickly.: one thing I have learned is that if people are expected to
include too much meta-data in their work (such as timestamps), it just
won't happen.

My take is this: people should feel free to post videos of on-topic videos
to this mailing list, but if you are expecting a discussion of the concepts
in that video, it isn't going to happen. If you want a discussion, post
text to the mailing list and you will more likely get some good discussion
and debate.

Thanks,

On Wed, Jun 7, 2017 at 8:58 PM, Alberto Salvia Novella <
es204904...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Stephen Kellat:
> > Within the strains of my civil service posting, even machine
> > translated text is easier for me to approach than video.
>
> Before I made video-responses widespread I wanted to warrant it wouldn’t
> exclude too much people.
>
> So I picked up a web-site which was English written, but had a wide
> diversity of people from around the world, and made this poll:
>
> (http://girlsaskguys.com/education-career/q2272280-do-you-
> understand-spoken-english)
>
> It throws that about 92% of people in an English written website will also
> be able to understand spoken English well.
>
>
> Also the web-media format is incredible efficient at compressing videos,
> and watching a video response will only take as much as visualising a 6MP
> photo.
>
> At that point we can discuss that videos are longer to pay attention to,
> but that's only if you choose to do a long explanation versus a minimal one.
>
>
> The idea of making video responses came out because I realised that most
> arguments which happen online, on a text basis, would never occur in a face
> to face manner.
>
> After sending around a hundred of messages in a questions and answers
> board, where you can usually find political extremists and social justice
> warriors, it shown that very little people would answer my video-messages
> in a rude manner. Even when they usually did when interacting with other
> users, and my points were as upfront as usual.
>
> So even when text has some obvious advantages, those things suggests me
> that video has hidden benefits. And perhaps it's far better suited for
> having discussions with people you are working with than plain text or a
> hangout, which is by far longer.
>
> Not to say these emails takes me long time to write, compared with just
> shooting a quick video. Instead of working, I find myself spending the time
> trying to convince people of details that doesn't really matter.
>
>
> Lately, when answering my latest message, I could had taken into account
> that it would be rejected anyway if it was on video. But that particular
> explanation had been way harder to understand on text, as it was about the
> disposition of elements in an interface.
>
> I'm usually only showing you the tip of the iceberg. That something is
> short, unorthodox or casual doesn't mean it isn't well designed.
>
> The papercuts logo, that circle with a heart origami in the middle, took
> me 30 hours to design. Imagine if I had to discuss its design in depth with
> someone. Take this email as specimen, took me 2 hours to write. I need my
> life!
>
>
>
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>


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Re: Odp: Re: I'm stopping contributing

[Benjamin Kerensa]

It really continues to be inappropriate for people to police how you choose
to communicate and express yourself Alberta.

While using a video may be unorthodox it doesn't violate any community
rules and those who dislike it are free to scroll past.

On Jun 7, 2017 7:00 PM, "Alberto Salvia Novella" 
wrote:

> Marcin Xc:
>
>> "Why" are You still ignoring people who told You that a mailing list is
>> not a right place for links and videos? Especially 10 or 20 minutes long.
>>
>
> I understand that people suspect I'm doing things on resistance.
> Understand me when I choose to point an UI issue actually seeing the UI.
>
>
>
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Re: Odp: Re: I'm stopping contributing

[Nathan Haines]

On 06/07/2017 07:09 PM, Benjamin Kerensa wrote:
> It really continues to be inappropriate for people to police how you
> choose to communicate and express yourself Alberta.

It is not inappropriate to let someone know that he is acting in a way 
that prevents his communication from being received and understood by 
the majority of his audience.


> While using a video may be unorthodox it doesn't violate any community
> rules and those who dislike it are free to scroll past.

These mailing lists are for text discussion, not promotion of his social 
media channels.  If he truly does wish to communicate with the people on 
these mailing lists, then he should do so on these mailing lists.


Empty emails with blind links to videos or social media with no context 
are unlikely to be followed by many.


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Re: Odp: Re: I'm stopping contributing

[José Antonio Rey]

Benjamin, I think that what we are raising here was never a policing,
but instead asking for etiquette to be followed. He is sending an email
to a mailing list and all those involved in them want to participate in
the discussion. By having those videos sent, he disables people to
follow on the discussion as expected on a mailing list.

If Alberto chooses to keep on sending videos, I will have to stop
discussing the matter, since it is impossible for me to carefully watch
those videos and express an opinion, contrary to what I could've done if
there was written text.

I have the best of intentions on trying to get this matter solved, so
that no one, even Alberto, feel left out of the discussion and community
in general.

I don't want to keep on with this useless discussion (since it doesn't
provide any benefit to keep on passing the ball like this), so if
Alberto keeps on sending those videos, I have nothing further to say on
the matter. And I think several other have expressed the same.

Sorry.


On 06/07/2017 09:09 PM, Benjamin Kerensa wrote:
> It really continues to be inappropriate for people to police how you
> choose to communicate and express yourself Alberta.
> 
> While using a video may be unorthodox it doesn't violate any community
> rules and those who dislike it are free to scroll past.
> 
> On Jun 7, 2017 7:00 PM, "Alberto Salvia Novella"  > wrote:
> 
> Marcin Xc:
> 
> "Why" are You still ignoring people who told You that a mailing
> list is not a right place for links and videos? Especially 10 or
> 20 minutes long.
> 
> 
> I understand that people suspect I'm doing things on resistance.
> Understand me when I choose to point an UI issue actually seeing the UI.
> 
> 
> 
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> 
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> 
> 
> 

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Re: I'm stopping contributing

[Alberto Salvia Novella]

Stephen Kellat:
> Within the strains of my civil service posting, even machine
> translated text is easier for me to approach than video.

Before I made video-responses widespread I wanted to warrant it wouldn’t 
exclude too much people.


So I picked up a web-site which was English written, but had a wide 
diversity of people from around the world, and made this poll:


(http://girlsaskguys.com/education-career/q2272280-do-you-understand-spoken-english)

It throws that about 92% of people in an English written website will 
also be able to understand spoken English well.



Also the web-media format is incredible efficient at compressing videos, 
and watching a video response will only take as much as visualising a 
6MP photo.


At that point we can discuss that videos are longer to pay attention to, 
but that's only if you choose to do a long explanation versus a minimal one.



The idea of making video responses came out because I realised that most 
arguments which happen online, on a text basis, would never occur in a 
face to face manner.


After sending around a hundred of messages in a questions and answers 
board, where you can usually find political extremists and social 
justice warriors, it shown that very little people would answer my 
video-messages in a rude manner. Even when they usually did when 
interacting with other users, and my points were as upfront as usual.


So even when text has some obvious advantages, those things suggests me 
that video has hidden benefits. And perhaps it's far better suited for 
having discussions with people you are working with than plain text or a 
hangout, which is by far longer.


Not to say these emails takes me long time to write, compared with just 
shooting a quick video. Instead of working, I find myself spending the 
time trying to convince people of details that doesn't really matter.



Lately, when answering my latest message, I could had taken into account 
that it would be rejected anyway if it was on video. But that particular 
explanation had been way harder to understand on text, as it was about 
the disposition of elements in an interface.


I'm usually only showing you the tip of the iceberg. That something is 
short, unorthodox or casual doesn't mean it isn't well designed.


The papercuts logo, that circle with a heart origami in the middle, took 
me 30 hours to design. Imagine if I had to discuss its design in depth 
with someone. Take this email as specimen, took me 2 hours to write. I 
need my life!



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Re: Odp: Re: I'm stopping contributing

[Alberto Salvia Novella]

Marcin Xc:
"Why" are You still ignoring people who told You that a mailing list is 
not a right place for links and videos? Especially 10 or 20 minutes long.


I understand that people suspect I'm doing things on resistance. 
Understand me when I choose to point an UI issue actually seeing the UI.



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