Re: [ubuntu-studio-devel] Oh no, please not that again: Desktop Agnostic, Was: Re: Gedit

2015-11-27 Thread Jonathan Aquilina 
In terms of the enlightenment team, they just released E20 and there is
lots of activity on the mailing list. I cant give you numbers but I have
seen a fair number of developers from samsung that are working with
enlightnement for the Tizen SDK and lots of new developers. Latest version
if i am not mistaken even includes support for wayland.

I get loads of emails on a daily basis from their mailing list so there is
quite a fair bit of activity going on.

Jonathan Aquilina

On Fri, Nov 27, 2015 at 12:15 PM, Ralf Mardorf 
wrote:

> Since manpower is an issue, it might be better to consider to at least
> stay with a DE/WM from an Ubuntu flavour.
>
> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuFlavors
>
> Lubuntu comes with openbox, unfortunately LXDE is tricky, regarding the
> transition to Qt.
>
> Other issues speaking against Enlightenment:
>
> The German Wiki mentions non-standard binary configurations for
> Enlightenment, https://wiki.ubuntuusers.de/Enlightenment. Is this
> wanted? How huge is the developer team?
>
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Re: [ubuntu-studio-devel] Oh no, please not that again: Desktop Agnostic, Was: Re: Gedit

2015-11-27 Thread Len Ovens 

On Fri, 27 Nov 2015, Jonathan Aquilina wrote:


In terms of the enlightenment team, they just released E20 and there is lots of
activity on the mailing list. I cant give you numbers but I have seen a fair
number of developers from samsung that are working with enlightnement for the
Tizen SDK and lots of new developers. Latest version if i am not mistaken even
includes support for wayland.
I get loads of emails on a daily basis from their mailing list so there is quite
a fair bit of activity going on.


We will not be using Enlightenment. Unless there is a team that first 
creates "Ebuntu" and has a good track record of keeping a stable ubuntu 
flavour. Studio does not have the developers to keep up a DE in the Ubuntu 
ecosystem as well as deal with the artistic software. So we will continue 
to be based on one of the well established ubuntu flavours. Any work 
beyond that will be to make the essensials of Studio work on the Ubuntu 
flavours.


As you may have noticed in pervious Emails we are actually trying to do 
less DE work not more. The Xubuntu team works quite hard at keeping xfce 
up to date and bug free. In general their theming has been just what we 
need. On any machine suited to artistic workflows the DE is a minimal 
load. Both xfce and kde (not sure about unity and gnome session) allow 
tuning the DE to use less CPU if the user desires.


However with the profusion of things like USB mics  :P  ethernet connected 
audio interfaces and drawing surfaces, we have lots to do. One of the 
biggest troubles we have (still) is people not understanding jack. I am 
working on "autojack" which starts jack at session start and uses 
zita-ajbridge to also connect such things as USB mics so the user can find 
then in Qtractor, Non-Daw or Ardour. (would someone please package non in 
debian)


There is also work on -controls to expand this to manually configure 
autojack as well as making sure audio use is properly set up. (we need to 
add a reliable way to put the system into performance mode... hint needs a 
60 second delay after sysem startup)


Artistic uses in Linux has a lot of room for improvement. Personally, I am 
pretty much audio focused, but Video has been confined to post production 
and playback for the most part.


The whole live video area has hardly been 
scratched. There is really, at this time not much in the way of lowlatency 
pro video handling in Linux. The profusion of firewire ports on SLRs 
and video cameras seems to have dried up and been replaced with USB with 
no video streaming capabilities.


Graphics has a long history in Linux, but Studio's Graphic setup is right 
now, no more than a collection of applications. We need someone who is 
passionate about graphics (or even some part of it) to make this work 
well. (there are right now some graphics setup stuff that may not even 
work or at least need someone make documentation on how it works who has 
the tools to check it with.)


That is a minimum of two people we need to just look at these areas. (I 
would suggest 4 people for mutual encouragement if nothing else) Studio is 
Audio focused right now. WHere are the other people?


--
Len Ovens
www.ovenwerks.net


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[ubuntu-studio-devel] Oh no, please not that again: Desktop Agnostic, Was: Re: Gedit

2015-11-27 Thread Ralf Mardorf 
On Fri, 27 Nov 2015 08:41:56 +0100, Jonathan Aquilina wrote:
>enlightenment WM

It's a freakish WM. Even if it nowadays really should be 100% stable,
as claimed so often in the past, when it was not 100% stable. Even if it
nowadays should provide at least one neutral theme. Even if the
work-flow nowadays should be closer to GNOME2 and XFCE4 the it was in
the past, if you really want a lightweight WM, then why not using a WM
that has got a huger community, where more people can
contribute/recommend combinations with good panels, file browsers,
terminal emulations etc., such as openbox? If you want the most
lightweight WM that is stable, provides a neutral theme and that
provides a work-flow closer to GNOME2 and XFCE4, then why not using
JWM? There are far more WMs available that are a much better choice.
Enlightenment is a bad choice compared to other WMs. I tested several
WMs. FWIW you even could consider to use XFWM4 without XFCE4, nearly
everything is better then Enlightenment. However, I guess the averaged
user expects to get a WM, especially since Ubuntu Studio is not an
audio distro, it's an artist distro.

Btw. I'm using openbox and just in case have JWM installed, assumed
an update should break openbox. Both work as expected on Arch Linux,
but all WMs suffer on Ubuntu from the odd behaviour, that for some for
unknown reason the common files to set up fonts are ignored.

IMO it's wiser to stay with XFCE4 or to use Mate. I also tested several
DEs. Cinnamon is a no-go, KDE>=4 is a no-go, GNOME3 is a no-go. For my
needs Xfce4 became a no-go too and Mate is a no-go too, but Xfce4 and
Mate for averaged users who expect a DE, is the best choice. Note,
most artists dislike DEs and WMs that follow fashions for the work-flow
and for the themes. I'm aware that a few audio users like all that
crappy GUIs, such as the one of Guitarix, but most serious artists and
engineers want something that has got a neutral theme and that provides
an old faithful work-flow.

Imagine you're drawing, then the interaction of WM/DE themes is much
more important, since it not only affects the work-flow, the interaction
directly affects the drawing.

Unfortunately I can't pay for the original of Josef Albers's Interaction
of Color, but fortunately the Josef Albers Museum is in Bottrop, a
neighbour town of my home town Oberhausen, so when I was young and
learning, I often visited the museum.

If you watch the squares, you'll understand why neutral default themes
are important:

https://www.google.de/search?q=josef+albers=1152=709=lnms=isch=X=2=0ahUKEwil_YeBrbDJAhVIKg4KHT74AKkQ_AUIBigB

Again, the averaged user likely wants a DE, not a WM. Experienced users
anyway will set up their customized environments. As often mentioned in
the past, I bet that around 90% of experienced GUI terminal users
install roxterm, whatever WM/DE they are using, since all other
terminals are broken or they prefer something completely simple, such
as xterm, but quasi nobody will use something like xfce4-terminal,
gnome-terminal, konsole etc.. Keep it simple, as e.g xtrem or do it
perfectly comfortable, IOW care about resized windows etc., then use
roxterm. However, the averaged artist who installs an Ubuntu flavour
unlikely cares about this.

Another important argument is to consider not too often to switch the
default DE/WM and if you need to switch to another WM/DE, then it's the
best that users won't notice much difference. IOW stay with Xfce4 or
switch to something that is as close to Xfce4, as possible, so maybe
Mate. Enlightenment is so far away from Xfce4 compared to other WM,
that I'm absolutely against Enlightenment.

Regards,
Ralf
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Re: [ubuntu-studio-devel] Oh no, please not that again: Desktop Agnostic, Was: Re: Gedit

2015-11-27 Thread Ralf Mardorf 
On Fri, 27 Nov 2015 11:23:22 +0100, Ralf Mardorf wrote:
>However, I guess the averaged user expects to get a WM, especially
>since Ubuntu Studio is not an audio distro, it's an artist distro.

This should read a "DE" ;).

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