Re: Graphics apps, kde stuff

[Ho Wan Chan]

Good. But in case one day you're in Raring and you're having problems with
installing/upgrading Krita TELL ME (as I will probably be the packager from
Kubuntu for Calligra which includes Krita).

Howard Chan (smartboyhw)
On 2013-3-4 上午12:11, "Len Ovens"  wrote:

>
> On Mon, February 25, 2013 1:31 am, Shubham Mishra wrote:
> > Actually there is an extension for inkscape for CMYK support, but that's
> > besides the point. Inkscape is a vector program and is different from
> > Krita which works with raster graphics (which is what one would use to
> > create so called "Digital Art").
>
> For those interested, I have added Krita to the seeds tonight. It will
> also be part of the graphics meta (ubuntustudio-graphics).
>
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>
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Re: Graphics apps, kde stuff

[Len Ovens]

On Mon, February 25, 2013 1:31 am, Shubham Mishra wrote:
> Actually there is an extension for inkscape for CMYK support, but that's
> besides the point. Inkscape is a vector program and is different from
> Krita which works with raster graphics (which is what one would use to
> create so called "Digital Art").

For those interested, I have added Krita to the seeds tonight. It will
also be part of the graphics meta (ubuntustudio-graphics).

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Re: Graphics apps, kde stuff

[Shubham Mishra]

Actually there is an extension for inkscape for CMYK support, but that's 
besides the point. Inkscape is a vector program and is different from 
Krita which works with raster graphics (which is what one would use to 
create so called "Digital Art").


On 02/25/2013 02:53 PM, ttoine wrote:

Krita handle CMYK, and the is missing in Inkscape !


Antoine THOMAS
Tél: 0663137906


2013/2/25 Ho Wan Chan mailto:smartbo...@gmail.com>>

Len, even the almighty Calligra doesn't kill me to package
GIMP+GPS won't be a big problem to me. I want to practice my
packaging skills:-P

smartboyhw

On 2013-2-25 ??8:10, "Len Ovens" mailto:l...@ovenwerks.net>> wrote:

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Re: Graphics apps, kde stuff

[ttoine]

Krita handle CMYK, and the is missing in Inkscape !


Antoine THOMAS
Tél: 0663137906


2013/2/25 Ho Wan Chan 

> Len, even the almighty Calligra doesn't kill me to package GIMP+GPS won't
> be a big problem to me. I want to practice my packaging skills:-P
>
> smartboyhw
> On 2013-2-25 上午8:10, "Len Ovens"  wrote:
>
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Re: Graphics apps, kde stuff

[Ho Wan Chan]

Len, even the almighty Calligra doesn't kill me to package GIMP+GPS won't
be a big problem to me. I want to practice my packaging skills:-P

smartboyhw
On 2013-2-25 上午8:10, "Len Ovens"  wrote:
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Re: Graphics apps, kde stuff

[Len Ovens]

On Sun, February 24, 2013 2:17 pm, lukefro...@hushmail.com wrote:
> No icons on the desktop is a deal-breaker for a lot of people. GNOME tried
> to do that, and was quickly
> forced to bring back that option. An empty default desktop is one thing,
> but not being able to use it would
> make what I do much more difficult.

I can accept your judgment and experience on that even if I don't agree :)
I personally find desktop icons less than useful as they tend to be hidden
by whatever app I happen to be using. But that is just my personal
experience. There was a time I thought of them as must haves, or at least
nice to have.

> I have heard things like "fat pig" used to describe KDE, but even
> ultralight environments can be set up to
> run the file manager and have icons on the desktop. One of the lightest
> there is, although development
> is minimal these days, is Icewm. By default it is just a taskbar, tray,
> and window manager, but you can put
> anything you want in the startup scripts.

DBUS seems to be one of those things we need to have. Not hard to add
though, I have managed to have a working dbus on just VTs with no X
session running.



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Re: Graphics apps, kde stuff

[lukefromdc]

No icons on the desktop is a deal-breaker for a lot of people. GNOME tried to 
do that, and was quickly 
forced to bring back that option. An empty default desktop is one thing, but 
not being able to use it would
make what I do much more difficult.

I have heard things like "fat pig" used to describe KDE, but even ultralight 
environments can be set up to 
run the file manager and have icons on the desktop. One of the lightest there 
is, although development 
is minimal these days, is Icewm. By default it is just a taskbar, tray, and 
window manager, but you can put
anything you want in the startup scripts. I use it in my netbook with 
gnome-settings-daemon, nemo, and
nm-applet to make a very light but fully usable desktop.  Main advantage is 
rapid responsiveness-and the
ability to play 720p video because almost all of that tiny processor is 
available. Main disadvantage is that 
all menu and taskbar launcher editing must be done by hand editing text files. 

A few GUI applications to edit the menus and startup scripts, and Icewm could 
be the basis of an ultralight
desktop used for almost any purpose. No more being stuck with a particular file 
manager or an integration 
issue-it doesn't even depend on GTK. Very good as the basis of a custom 
nonaccelerated DE.




>Yes KDE is a bit of a resource hog. I would like to slim down xfce 
>even. I
>would like to get rid of anything that puts icons on the desktop, 
>like the
>instance of thunar that runs at session start.
>


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Re: Graphics apps, kde stuff

[Len Ovens]

On Sun, February 24, 2013 11:57 am, Benjamin Turner wrote:
> On 02/24/2013 09:44 AM, Len Ovens wrote:
>> My opinion is that integration is over rated :)  Adding krita is 38Mb on
>> the ISO or so. I am downloading it now to try. I find mypaint hard to
>> use,
>> but that is mostly because there is not an artist using the mouse :P
> I agree with you about integration, mostly. One major thing to be said
> about the 'kde' integration is the ease of setting up custom keybindings
> for wacom tablets (what digital artist uses a mouse anymore?! ;) ).

That was sort of my point. I am not an artist. So I do use a mouse, cause
I don't have a tablet :)  I would like to have one though, because I think
it would make a great midi controller surface. Print out a mixer or other
controller (or even an organ like keyboard, or drawbars just to name a
few) and touch the four corners to set up the program and instant midi
controller.

> I know that XFCE has some basic setup for tablets, and the pressure
> sensitivity is still used in Mypaint etc while under xfce, but being
> able to specifically configure the tablet for KDE apps in general is the
> real plus of KDE+Krita.

Good to know. There are a few areas I would like to see fixed in xfce.
Dual monitors is another. It would be great to know how kde does it. One
day when I feel rich I will have to buy a tablet to play with. I wonder if
just the kde settings app(let) is usable in xfce? I wonder if it uses a
setup file, a driver or environment variables. (or just talks to x about
it)

> I would say that I tend to use Mypaint for quick sketches in xfce, but
> if I'm going to do some real intensive painting sessions, I boot up a
> Kubuntu session with my specific tablet settings. The main drawback for
> me is that I always feel like there is A LOT of overhead using KDE just
> to get this functionality, but I don't have the time, or really the
> technical know-how to implement this type of thing in xfce.

Yes KDE is a bit of a resource hog. I would like to slim down xfce even. I
would like to get rid of anything that puts icons on the desktop, like the
instance of thunar that runs at session start.

> This alone is reason enough to add it to US, but perhaps some effort
> upstream to make XFCE's tablet configuration more robust would be the
> real winner for every piece of digital painting software in US!

That makes +3 and -1 so far.

Scott? I know you do more graphics than I do.

Any other artists?


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Re: Graphics apps, kde stuff

[Len Ovens]

On Sun, February 24, 2013 11:25 am, lukefro...@hushmail.com wrote:
> I have kdenlive installed in all of my systems, but not k3b. I'm using the
> Sunab PPA
> versons but did not always, and I don't see k3b listed as a dependancy or
> even as
> a recoomendation. I do see DVDauthor as a "recommends," it does not depend
> on
> k3b either. I checked the Ubuntu packages website, the standard version of
> kdenlive
> and Kdenlive-data do not include k3b in their dependancies or recommends
> either.

k3b lists that is a dependency of:
kmediafactory
dvd95
uck
quodlibet-plugins
kubuntu-full
kubuntu-desktop
k3b-i18n
k3b-dbg
ezgo-multimedia
aptoncd

We don't ship any of these. In fact none of them are listed as installed
on my 13.04 system. I will have to look but I am pretty sure K3B is not in
our seeds either. It did show up at the same time as I added kdenlive
though. Weird.

> I've had good luck with dvdstyler for making DVDs that play in ordinary
> DVD players, but
> if I'm just sending files somewhere they go out as full HD 1080p files on
> data DVDs.

I mostly make data disks.
>
> Maybe the k3b problem has been a matter of not checking to ensure the
> files are actually
> usable by a DVD player, or has it been something else?

After burning the DVD, the computer that burned it wouldn't even recognize
it. I did the second one just in case I had not made sure the disk was
fixed, but had the same problem. So I used Brasero which worked fine.


> There is also a long-standing  bug in Brasero, could be shared by other
> frontends like k3b, involving attempts
> to burn directly to disk without first making an image of the filesystem.

That is a possibility... that could just as easily be a wodem bug. I
haven't tried cdrecord, but word is it just works. I certainly never had a
problem with cdrecord before wodem showed up either. Replacing a working
program with one that doesn't is just dumb.



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Re: Graphics apps, kde stuff

[Benjamin Turner]

On 02/24/2013 09:44 AM, Len Ovens wrote:

My opinion is that integration is over rated :)  Adding krita is 38Mb on
the ISO or so. I am downloading it now to try. I find mypaint hard to use,
but that is mostly because there is not an artist using the mouse :P
I agree with you about integration, mostly. One major thing to be said 
about the 'kde' integration is the ease of setting up custom keybindings 
for wacom tablets (what digital artist uses a mouse anymore?! ;) ).


I know that XFCE has some basic setup for tablets, and the pressure 
sensitivity is still used in Mypaint etc while under xfce, but being 
able to specifically configure the tablet for KDE apps in general is the 
real plus of KDE+Krita.


I would say that I tend to use Mypaint for quick sketches in xfce, but 
if I'm going to do some real intensive painting sessions, I boot up a 
Kubuntu session with my specific tablet settings. The main drawback for 
me is that I always feel like there is A LOT of overhead using KDE just 
to get this functionality, but I don't have the time, or really the 
technical know-how to implement this type of thing in xfce.


Krita is a great piece of software, and in some regards is really 
pushing new boundaries with digital painting in free-software :


http://libregraphicsworld.org/blog/entry/krita-2.6-released

This alone is reason enough to add it to US, but perhaps some effort 
upstream to make XFCE's tablet configuration more robust would be the 
real winner for every piece of digital painting software in US!


Just my 2 cents,

- Benjamin

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Re: Graphics apps, kde stuff

[lukefromdc]

I have kdenlive installed in all of my systems, but not k3b. I'm using the 
Sunab PPA
versons but did not always, and I don't see k3b listed as a dependancy or even 
as
a recoomendation. I do see DVDauthor as a "recommends," it does not depend on 
k3b either. I checked the Ubuntu packages website, the standard version of 
kdenlive
and Kdenlive-data do not include k3b in their dependancies or recommends either.

I do not have recommendations treated as dependancies in Synaptic, but haven't 
found
anything that would pull in K3b in Kdenlive in today's examination for it.
-
I am using a 64 bit system always following the alpha release, now Raring, 
using 
Cinnamon as the DE on the big video editing systems and a personal fork of the 
old Hardy Heron era US themes and icons(my versions support GTK3). 
Kdenlive,Audacity.
and GIMP  are the main media handling programs. Avidemux and Blender are also 
installed
and used for particular tasks.

I've had good luck with dvdstyler for making DVDs that play in ordinary DVD 
players, but 
if I'm just sending files somewhere they go out as full HD 1080p files on data 
DVDs.

Maybe the k3b problem has been a matter of not checking to ensure the files are 
actually
usable by a DVD player, or has it been something else?

To make any kind of video DVD that plays on a DVD player hooked to a TV, all 
the video files
need to be in the exact format the DVD player will be looking for. That means 
interlaced 720x
480 video in mpeg-2 codec in VOB containers. Full specs below:

f=dvd vcodec=mpeg2video acodec=ac3 s=720x480 vb=6000k maxrate=9000k minrate=0 
bufsize=1835008 packetsize=2048 muxrate=1008 ab=192k ar=48000 g=18 
me_range=63 trellis=1 mlt_profile=dv_ntsc pass=%passes

If you burn a DVD using a program that does not check to see that the video 
files can in fact be
played by an old-school DVD player, and it lets you burn the disc, the result 
is a disc containing
nonstandard VOB files that a computer can play but a DVD player cannot. The 
only thing the
burning program can do about this is make sure that standard NTSC (or PAL for 
those players)
files are being used, and either error out or display a warning if a 
nonstandard file is detected.

There is also a long-standing  bug in Brasero, could be shared by other 
frontends like k3b, involving attempts
to burn directly to disk without first making an image of the filesystem. On my 
systems, this
NEVER works, and always makes a totally unreadable disk. You must first make in 
image when
using Brasero, then burn this image to disk. This affects all types of disks: 
audio, data, presumably
DVD, and so on. I have forgotten some of the details, but I'm pretty sure I 
made images first when
usng DVDstyler too.



>Speaking of kde programs, kdenlive adds k3b. I have personally had
>problems with k3b in that it has borked two dvds now (out of two). 
>brasero
>works fine for me. I have heard other people have the same kind of
>problem. IS there anyone who uses k3b here that can confirm there 
>is a
>problem? (or that it works fine?) I can't afford to waste DVDs 
>testing it.
>I have been told that the problem is k3b works well with cdrecord 
>but not
>with wodem (which we have). Wodem is one of those "we (debian I 
>would
>guess) don't like the licence on cdrecord so we are forking it so 
>we can
>have GPL" things, but once it is forked it doesn't get the love 
>and care
>of the original author :P  (yes who is cantankerous and hard to 
>get along
>with, must be an artist, So what?) Maybe we have a reason to put 
>cdrecord
>into the ubuntu repos over wodim? I don't think the licence is 
>that bad
>from what I have heard. (I am not a lawyer :)
>
>
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Re: Graphics apps, kde stuff

[Len Ovens]

On Sun, February 24, 2013 8:52 am, Ho Wan Chan wrote:
> Now hmm I am the packager of Calligra (which includes Krita) for it's last
> two versions (2.6.0 & 2.6.1) since I'm now a Kubuntu packager. I thought
> that Krita is really a great app. However we aren't using KDE anymore.
> Even
> though we have KDE libs in the ISOs, I disagree that we should put it in.
> It's sort of not integrated. However since I'm not a member of the Ubuntu
> Studio Development Team, I shall not have any problems with it being added
> to the ISOs.

My opinion is that integration is over rated :)  Adding krita is 38Mb on
the ISO or so. I am downloading it now to try. I find mypaint hard to use,
but that is mostly because there is not an artist using the mouse :P 
Generally I find xpaint easier to use because it helps me do straight
lines ;)  What would probably be more useful to me is a simple drafting
program.

Anyway, I find krita easier to use than mypaint. It also looks a lot more
complete. When run from a terminal, it does seem to output quite a bit.

>
> As for GIMP Paint Studio, I can absolutely volunteer to package it (since
> I
> now have more experience). However I need to find a sponsor to get it in
> the Ubuntu archive, otherwise we can't add it in into the ISOs.

Please be aware that this would be an ongoing project as the GPS package
has to be repackaged every time there is a new GIMP package as it has to
be compiled against it. There are some other quirks as well to packaging
that require some scripting to be run during install. On the whole it
would be better to package a GIMP+GPS package. (which BTW would replace
the standard gimp binaries if they happened to be installed) shnatsel is
the last person who has done this work and would be able to tell you what
needed doing. Even downloading his package (way out of date BTW) and
examining the install scripts would be helpful. His PPA (if it is still
around) is:
ppa:shnatsel/gimp-paint-studio




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Re: Graphics apps, kde stuff

[Ho Wan Chan]

Now hmm I am the packager of Calligra (which includes Krita) for it's last
two versions (2.6.0 & 2.6.1) since I'm now a Kubuntu packager. I thought
that Krita is really a great app. However we aren't using KDE anymore. Even
though we have KDE libs in the ISOs, I disagree that we should put it in.
It's sort of not integrated. However since I'm not a member of the Ubuntu
Studio Development Team, I shall not have any problems with it being added
to the ISOs.

As for GIMP Paint Studio, I can absolutely volunteer to package it (since I
now have more experience). However I need to find a sponsor to get it in
the Ubuntu archive, otherwise we can't add it in into the ISOs.

smartboyhw (Howard Chan)
On 2013-2-25 上午12:28, "Len Ovens"  wrote:

>
> On Sun, February 24, 2013 8:02 am, Shubham Mishra wrote:
> > On 02/24/2013 09:23 PM, Len Ovens wrote:
> >> This morning, a user asked about krita and was given the normal reply
> >> about us only including enough apps to cover workflows etc. No problem.
> >> I
> >> know we have not included KDE apps in the past because of the libs it
> >> pulls in. However, we have added kdenlive and so we now have the kde
> >> libs
> >> anyway. (2mb seems less of a problem on a 2G iso than on a 700M iso)
> >>
> >> I would suggest we maybe need to reassess our workflows with regard to
> >> best apps now that we can easily include kde apps. For example, is krita
> >> better than what we have now? A question for the artists in our midst.
> >>
> >>
> > I presume the existing setup for Digital art is GIMP + GPS (2.8 comes
> > with half the GPS brushes anyways). While that is a good setup, it does
> > have a steeper learning curve, compared to Krita at least.  That is
> > understandable since GIMP was primarily intended as an image editing
> > software ( and does that pretty well), whereas Krita is specifically a
> > program made for digital art. With the the recent 2.6 release (PSD
> > support anyone?) Krita is definitely a very high quality program to
> > include in a FLOSS workflow for art, especially for artists who are
> > trying to migrate from the Windows+Photoshop arena.
> >
>
> GPS equals "Gimp Paint Studio"? We don't have it. The guy who was
> interested in packaging it seems to have vanished. I did suggest we would
> like to include it in US by default, but I think he is really only
> interested in doing that for an LTS release as it is a lot less work for
> him. I think Mypaint or inkscape are the only painting programs we have.
> There are some 3D things in here like blender and synfig.
>
> I am not a graphic artist really so I don't know what is good or not.
> However it sounds like this may be an area we have not covered at all.
>
>
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Re: Graphics apps, kde stuff

[Len Ovens]

On Sun, February 24, 2013 8:02 am, Shubham Mishra wrote:
> On 02/24/2013 09:23 PM, Len Ovens wrote:
>> This morning, a user asked about krita and was given the normal reply
>> about us only including enough apps to cover workflows etc. No problem.
>> I
>> know we have not included KDE apps in the past because of the libs it
>> pulls in. However, we have added kdenlive and so we now have the kde
>> libs
>> anyway. (2mb seems less of a problem on a 2G iso than on a 700M iso)
>>
>> I would suggest we maybe need to reassess our workflows with regard to
>> best apps now that we can easily include kde apps. For example, is krita
>> better than what we have now? A question for the artists in our midst.
>>
>>
> I presume the existing setup for Digital art is GIMP + GPS (2.8 comes
> with half the GPS brushes anyways). While that is a good setup, it does
> have a steeper learning curve, compared to Krita at least.  That is
> understandable since GIMP was primarily intended as an image editing
> software ( and does that pretty well), whereas Krita is specifically a
> program made for digital art. With the the recent 2.6 release (PSD
> support anyone?) Krita is definitely a very high quality program to
> include in a FLOSS workflow for art, especially for artists who are
> trying to migrate from the Windows+Photoshop arena.
>

GPS equals "Gimp Paint Studio"? We don't have it. The guy who was
interested in packaging it seems to have vanished. I did suggest we would
like to include it in US by default, but I think he is really only
interested in doing that for an LTS release as it is a lot less work for
him. I think Mypaint or inkscape are the only painting programs we have.
There are some 3D things in here like blender and synfig.

I am not a graphic artist really so I don't know what is good or not.
However it sounds like this may be an area we have not covered at all.


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Re: Graphics apps

[Len Ovens]

On Wed, July 25, 2012 4:06 pm, Shubham Mishra wrote:
> On Wed, Jul 25, 2012 at 6:25 PM, Scott Lavender wrote,
>
>>one thing i wouldn't want to do is make a install image that was 4GB for
>> everyone to >download. therefore, i am concerned about incurring tonnes
>> of new libraries for a >particular application. also, i would be cautious
>> about trying to include applications for >_every_ possible creative use
>> for content creation.
>
> I completely understand your situation (although Krita isn't just yet
> another graphics app).  Would it be possible to implement what Len
> said about not actually including the application in shipped list, but
> having links to recommended programs that the user can view and
> download if he wants to?

I understand that. To keep size of the DVD down there are other important
packages that are not included that are left for the user to install after
the fact. I have already added krita to the graphics extra SW icon. We
have been told we should not add PPAs as an option in the install which is
correct. I don't even know if we can have a documentation page that points
out that they exist and where they are. I will post on this list when the
quantal ISO actually has these icons installed (the package has yet to
upload and release... I'm hoping Monday) so that people can test some of
these installs and point out problems. For example, I am not even sure
where they will appear in the menu structure.

Art, of any kind, is not well supported in Linux yet. It is a patchwork of
environments, libs and unreleased SW (that is you have to compile it
yourself... maybe I should have said unpackaged). A musician (recording
tech?), video artist or graphics artist will only get the best from Linux
if they are willing to go for more than an out of the box experience. Our
aim is to both provide the very best out of the box experience we can and
provide a great base for adding those extras that can make a Linux box
shine.

In my opinion, documentation (and the testing that goes with it) is the
biggest lack we have in the Linux world. I certainly don't see quantal as
the point we are working to. We will (I would say have) accomplished a
lot. Some will show in the release and some is the background info needed
for the next step after. Your help as an artist has been very valuable to
us.


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Re: Graphics apps

[Len Ovens]

On Thu, July 26, 2012 7:20 am, Len Ovens wrote:

> effects, midi, mixers, and synths so far. I can include things that are
> not on the ubuntu repos and if the user adds the PPA that goes with them
> they will work after that. For example, I have included non-mixer in the
> mixers, but it doesn't show up right now. However if the user adds the
> kxstudio ppa, it will.

What I should have added... should we add a small gui that adds these
PPAs? Something that explains the the benefits and risks and then has
buttons to add PPAs individually with perhaps a list of apps available
there. As with all installers this would have to be sudo using pkexec or
something similar. (I happen to know that pk comes with ubuntu already) I
would do this with tk/tcl (which we include already) but others might use
the python equiv.

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Re: Graphics apps

[Len Ovens]

On Wed, July 25, 2012 4:06 pm, Shubham Mishra wrote:
> On Wed, Jul 25, 2012 at 6:25 PM, Scott Lavender wrote,
>
>>one thing i wouldn't want to do is make a install image that was 4GB for
>> everyone to >download. therefore, i am concerned about incurring tonnes
>> of new libraries for a >particular application. also, i would be cautious
>> about trying to include applications for >_every_ possible creative use
>> for content creation.
>
> I completely understand your situation (although Krita isn't just yet
> another graphics app).  Would it be possible to implement what Len
> said about not actually including the application in shipped list, but
> having links to recommended programs that the user can view and
> download if he wants to?

It is in the works. It is actually quite trivial. I have done office, dtp,
effects, midi, mixers, and synths so far. I can include things that are
not on the ubuntu repos and if the user adds the PPA that goes with them
they will work after that. For example, I have included non-mixer in the
mixers, but it doesn't show up right now. However if the user adds the
kxstudio ppa, it will.

Please send me a list of applications it might be useful to add this way.
(I already will add kritta) I need the exact name of the package.

Anyone else can send package names too please.


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Re: Graphics apps

[Shubham Mishra]

On Wed, Jul 25, 2012 at 6:25 PM, Scott Lavender wrote,

>one thing i wouldn't want to do is make a install image that was 4GB for 
>everyone to >download. therefore, i am concerned about incurring tonnes of new 
>libraries for a >particular application. also, i would be cautious about 
>trying to include applications for >_every_ possible creative use for content 
>creation.

I completely understand your situation (although Krita isn't just yet
another graphics app).  Would it be possible to implement what Len
said about not actually including the application in shipped list, but
having links to recommended programs that the user can view and
download if he wants to?

On 7/25/12, Scott Lavender  wrote:
> On Sun, Jul 22, 2012 at 4:17 PM, Len Ovens  wrote:
>
>>
>> On Sun, July 22, 2012 10:37 am, Shubham Mishra wrote:
>>
>> > On Sun, July 22, 2012 7:59 PM, Len Ovens wrote
>> >> I want to add a menu item that opens
>> >>software-center with libreoffice, abiword and gnumeric so that if the
>> >> user
>> >>wants it they don't have to search.
>> >
>> > Hmm.. Right. And then that could be done for the other sections as
>> > well, like the list of recommended apps that you were talking about
>> > (which can also include Krita under graphics, thereby removing the
>> > need to include KDE libs beforehand).
>>
>> That is the idea. I have just looked through our meta files.. and they
>> are
>> all full of depends rather than recommends  :P  Like why should our whole
>> audio install depend on "meterbridge"? I would include krita for sure in
>> that item because there has already been at least one user ask for it.
>>
>> This does mean a bit more testing... I will have to try installing some
>> of
>> these extra packages to make sure they run nice with whatever else we
>> have. We will also have to make sure they show up in the right submenu.
>>
>> The vision of our leader is to include enough to get any job done without
>> including every known software in the repo. We also want the user to be
>> able at system install to just install the workflow/area they are
>> interested in. For that possibility the meta that goes with area should
>> be
>> listed so that someone who wants to add a meta later can do so easily.
>>
>> It is hard thinking of all the possibilities to try to cover.
>>
>> --
>> Len Ovens
>> www.OvenWerks.net
>>
>>
>> --
>> Ubuntu-Studio-devel mailing list
>> Ubuntu-Studio-devel@lists.ubuntu.com
>> Modify settings or unsubscribe at:
>> https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-studio-devel
>>
>
> one thing i wouldn't want to do is make a install image that was 4GB for
> everyone to download. therefore, i am concerned about incurring tonnes of
> new libraries for a particular application. also, i would be cautious about
> trying to include applications for _every_ possible creative use for
> content creation.
>
> if gimp paint studio is in process into the repos, i would be happy to wait
> a cycle to include it rather than make a reactionary decision and include
> krita with the additional dependencies.
>
> likewise, i hope our work flows are well though out and provide enough
> competent functionality for the majority of users. i feel it would
> be disastrous if we felt compelled to include every possible application
> solution to a need, not only for those maintaining ubuntu studio but also
> (and especially) for the users as i believe it would confuse many of them.
>
>
> as to the OP: alchemy is an amazing application and i have watched numerous
> videos for it, including a renowned contemporary graphics designer who made
> something rather incredible withing ten minutes using alchemy.
> unfortunately, alchemy appeared to have zero development for years and it
> is not in the repos. this doesn't mean we can't work up a "supported" work
> flow for it, which would need to include instructions or a link for
> installation.
>
> i already mentioned that i would rather wait a reasonable period for gimp
> paint studio rather than rashly include krita.
>
> however, i do very much appreciate the input and i think ubuntu studio
> benefits when we get user feedback like this.
>
>
> oh, and len, i agree with not making ubuntustudio-audio depend on
> meterbridge. that does seem a little silly.
>
> scottl
>


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Re: Graphics apps

[Scott Lavender]

On Sun, Jul 22, 2012 at 4:17 PM, Len Ovens  wrote:

>
> On Sun, July 22, 2012 10:37 am, Shubham Mishra wrote:
>
> > On Sun, July 22, 2012 7:59 PM, Len Ovens wrote
> >> I want to add a menu item that opens
> >>software-center with libreoffice, abiword and gnumeric so that if the
> >> user
> >>wants it they don't have to search.
> >
> > Hmm.. Right. And then that could be done for the other sections as
> > well, like the list of recommended apps that you were talking about
> > (which can also include Krita under graphics, thereby removing the
> > need to include KDE libs beforehand).
>
> That is the idea. I have just looked through our meta files.. and they are
> all full of depends rather than recommends  :P  Like why should our whole
> audio install depend on "meterbridge"? I would include krita for sure in
> that item because there has already been at least one user ask for it.
>
> This does mean a bit more testing... I will have to try installing some of
> these extra packages to make sure they run nice with whatever else we
> have. We will also have to make sure they show up in the right submenu.
>
> The vision of our leader is to include enough to get any job done without
> including every known software in the repo. We also want the user to be
> able at system install to just install the workflow/area they are
> interested in. For that possibility the meta that goes with area should be
> listed so that someone who wants to add a meta later can do so easily.
>
> It is hard thinking of all the possibilities to try to cover.
>
> --
> Len Ovens
> www.OvenWerks.net
>
>
> --
> Ubuntu-Studio-devel mailing list
> Ubuntu-Studio-devel@lists.ubuntu.com
> Modify settings or unsubscribe at:
> https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-studio-devel
>

one thing i wouldn't want to do is make a install image that was 4GB for
everyone to download. therefore, i am concerned about incurring tonnes of
new libraries for a particular application. also, i would be cautious about
trying to include applications for _every_ possible creative use for
content creation.

if gimp paint studio is in process into the repos, i would be happy to wait
a cycle to include it rather than make a reactionary decision and include
krita with the additional dependencies.

likewise, i hope our work flows are well though out and provide enough
competent functionality for the majority of users. i feel it would
be disastrous if we felt compelled to include every possible application
solution to a need, not only for those maintaining ubuntu studio but also
(and especially) for the users as i believe it would confuse many of them.


as to the OP: alchemy is an amazing application and i have watched numerous
videos for it, including a renowned contemporary graphics designer who made
something rather incredible withing ten minutes using alchemy.
unfortunately, alchemy appeared to have zero development for years and it
is not in the repos. this doesn't mean we can't work up a "supported" work
flow for it, which would need to include instructions or a link for
installation.

i already mentioned that i would rather wait a reasonable period for gimp
paint studio rather than rashly include krita.

however, i do very much appreciate the input and i think ubuntu studio
benefits when we get user feedback like this.


oh, and len, i agree with not making ubuntustudio-audio depend on
meterbridge. that does seem a little silly.

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Re: Graphics apps

[Len Ovens]

On Sun, July 22, 2012 10:37 am, Shubham Mishra wrote:

> On Sun, July 22, 2012 7:59 PM, Len Ovens wrote
>> I want to add a menu item that opens
>>software-center with libreoffice, abiword and gnumeric so that if the
>> user
>>wants it they don't have to search.
>
> Hmm.. Right. And then that could be done for the other sections as
> well, like the list of recommended apps that you were talking about
> (which can also include Krita under graphics, thereby removing the
> need to include KDE libs beforehand).

That is the idea. I have just looked through our meta files.. and they are
all full of depends rather than recommends  :P  Like why should our whole
audio install depend on "meterbridge"? I would include krita for sure in
that item because there has already been at least one user ask for it.

This does mean a bit more testing... I will have to try installing some of
these extra packages to make sure they run nice with whatever else we
have. We will also have to make sure they show up in the right submenu.

The vision of our leader is to include enough to get any job done without
including every known software in the repo. We also want the user to be
able at system install to just install the workflow/area they are
interested in. For that possibility the meta that goes with area should be
listed so that someone who wants to add a meta later can do so easily.

It is hard thinking of all the possibilities to try to cover.

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Re: Graphics apps

[Shubham Mishra]

On Sat, July 21, 2012 10:28 am, óÅÒÇÅÊ äÁ×ÙÄÏ× wrote:
> Krita got really weird recently.

Could you please elaborate?

On Sun, July 22, 2012 7:59 PM, Len Ovens wrote
> I want to add a menu item that opens
>software-center with libreoffice, abiword and gnumeric so that if the user
>wants it they don't have to search.

Hmm.. Right. And then that could be done for the other sections as
well, like the list of recommended apps that you were talking about
(which can also include Krita under graphics, thereby removing the
need to include KDE libs beforehand).

On 7/22/12, Len Ovens  wrote:
>
> On Sun, July 22, 2012 6:52 am, óÅÒÇÅÊ äÁ×ÙÄÏ× wrote:
>>> If it makes it to Debian we just request sync pretty much... However
>>> that
>>> is not a decision I can make. I would guess 13.04 for an eta as people
>>> seem to have more time in the winter months.
>>>
>>
>> AFAIK Debian is frozen and does not accept new uploads to testing which
>> Ubuntu auto-syncs. So uploading it upstream is not an option at the
>> moment.
>
> Right, ok, I don't know how we would get it into ubuntu repos (micahg
> might know). There are some ways of installing things that are not on the
> live session at the end of install... and I am working on an install after
> the fact setup too. For example, our office section comes empty except
> gedit and the pdf reader. I want to add a menu item that opens
> software-center with libreoffice, abiword and gnumeric so that if the user
> wants it they don't have to search. Just opening software center and
> searching for "office" makes things a pain to find. If I include the
> packages we ship, they can be removed as well. According to the man page I
> can add an apt-url as well. I can't really test it on this system though
> because your repo is already listed. So gimp-paint-studio already shows if
> I list it.
>
> There are some other apps we would like to be able to add like linux
> sampler for example that will never be on the ubuntu repos because of
> licensing issues. (free but not GPL)
>
> A general question for everyone: Is there anything in ubuntu policy that
> prevents us from adding extra PPAs to apt at install time?
>
> --
> Len Ovens
> www.OvenWerks.net
>
>
> --
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Re: Graphics apps

[Len Ovens]

On Sun, July 22, 2012 6:52 am, óÅÒÇÅÊ äÁ×ÙÄÏ× wrote:
>> If it makes it to Debian we just request sync pretty much... However
>> that
>> is not a decision I can make. I would guess 13.04 for an eta as people
>> seem to have more time in the winter months.
>>
>
> AFAIK Debian is frozen and does not accept new uploads to testing which
> Ubuntu auto-syncs. So uploading it upstream is not an option at the
> moment.

Right, ok, I don't know how we would get it into ubuntu repos (micahg
might know). There are some ways of installing things that are not on the
live session at the end of install... and I am working on an install after
the fact setup too. For example, our office section comes empty except
gedit and the pdf reader. I want to add a menu item that opens
software-center with libreoffice, abiword and gnumeric so that if the user
wants it they don't have to search. Just opening software center and
searching for "office" makes things a pain to find. If I include the
packages we ship, they can be removed as well. According to the man page I
can add an apt-url as well. I can't really test it on this system though
because your repo is already listed. So gimp-paint-studio already shows if
I list it.

There are some other apps we would like to be able to add like linux
sampler for example that will never be on the ubuntu repos because of
licensing issues. (free but not GPL)

A general question for everyone: Is there anything in ubuntu policy that
prevents us from adding extra PPAs to apt at install time?

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Re: Graphics apps

[Сергей Давыдов]

> If it makes it to Debian we just request sync pretty much... However that
> is not a decision I can make. I would guess 13.04 for an eta as people
> seem to have more time in the winter months.
>

AFAIK Debian is frozen and does not accept new uploads to testing which
Ubuntu auto-syncs. So uploading it upstream is not an option at the moment.

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Re: Graphics apps

[Len Ovens]

On Sat, July 21, 2012 10:28 am, óÅÒÇÅÊ äÁ×ÙÄÏ× wrote:
> Krita got really weird recently. GIMP with GIMP Paint Studio is much
> better
> for post-processing MyPaint drawings, that's what was used e.g. for Sintel
> production.

I'll take your word for it... I am graphics blind. I would have thought
that after the paint program, gimp was enough. Or that if a second paint
program was needed then is Mypaint good enough? I'm talking like an
accountant and as such should mostly be ignored.

> In addition, Krita pulls an unholy mess of KDE libs, including
> KOffice libraries.

That was my first comment... The user was quick to agree :-)  I didn't
realize it pulled in koffice stuff too, but I guess kde tries to integrate
everything so any doc can be used in any other (sigh, is it a feature or a
pita)

> GIMP Paint Studio was updated for GIMP 2.8 and it should be much easier to
> package now (no more complicated postinst hacks for sneaking in tool
> presets, w00t!). I can do the packaging if needed (well, I'm too lazy to
> do
> it just for the hell of it, but I can do that for the sake of shipping it
> in a distro by default). I have no idea about submission processes to
> Debian or Ubuntu repos, though.

If it makes it to Debian we just request sync pretty much... However that
is not a decision I can make. I would guess 13.04 for an eta as people
seem to have more time in the winter months.



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Re: Graphics apps

[Сергей Давыдов]

Krita got really weird recently. GIMP with GIMP Paint Studio is much better
for post-processing MyPaint drawings, that's what was used e.g. for Sintel
production. In addition, Krita pulls an unholy mess of KDE libs, including
KOffice libraries.

GIMP Paint Studio was updated for GIMP 2.8 and it should be much easier to
package now (no more complicated postinst hacks for sneaking in tool
presets, w00t!). I can do the packaging if needed (well, I'm too lazy to do
it just for the hell of it, but I can do that for the sake of shipping it
in a distro by default). I have no idea about submission processes to
Debian or Ubuntu repos, though.

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