Re: [ubuntu-studio-users] ubuntustudio and KDE

[Dave at Dalek Zone]

Excuse me for butting in... But if there was a guide that would be 
needed for Ubuntu Studio, it would be some kind of guide about how to 
set up some of the programs, how to connect the hardware, how to get 
started using the software, etc... I have have a gaming laptop with 
Kubuntu and the Ubuntu Studio environment, a beautiful guitar, and a 
Boss eBand JS10 that I never managed to use as a sound device (either 
input or output). So I have to keep Windows 10 as dual-boot OS so that I 
can use it...


If people knew how to USE Ubuntu Studio, maybe a lot more WOULD...

[If anyone's interested in developing documentation, I'd be happy to 
help out...)


---
All best wishes,
Dave

On 2020-06-27 00:49, Erich Eickmeyer wrote:

Hi Ross,


On Fri, Jun 26, 2020 at 1:27 PM Ross Gammon  
wrote:



Hi Erich,

I apologise for top posting, but I wanted to ask a quick related
question. Maybe I missed it, but one thing I haven't seen mentioned is
the upgrade path.

It is clear to me that if you stay with 20.04 for the supported 3 
years,
you will keep whatever desktop you have (e.g. XFCE which is default 
for

Ubuntu Studio).

It is also clear that if you do a fresh install of Ubuntu Studio 20.10
you will get Plasma.

But what happens if you upgrade Ubuntu Studio from 20.04 to 20.10 (or
from 20.04 to the next LTS release 22.04)? The announcement mentioned
likely breakage? Personally, I would prefer that either I kept the 
same

desktop, or I was smoothly migrated over to Plasma.



Not sure if you're aware, but Lubuntu has already forged this path for 
us.
When they switched their desktop from LXDE (no longer actively 
developed)
to LXQt (the merging of the LXDE and RazorQt projects) in 18.10 (and 
for
20.04 LTS) they had to make a tough call, and that was to not support 
any

direct upgrades from 18.04 to anything later, but to encourage clean
installs. Basically, since this seems to have been met with success, 
this

is the route that should be encouraged.

The biggest problem is that, due to the changes that had to happen in 
the
ubuntustudio-default-settings package, if one upgrades from 20.04 to 
20.10
they *will* end up installing pretty much the entirety of the Plasma DE 
and

might end up with a crippled Xfce. Unfortunately, there's no real way
around this.



I have always wondered what all the fuss is about with the "desktop
debate". I use Ubuntu Studio on two machines. One is standard Ubuntu
Studio (XFCE), and the other is standard Ubuntu with Ubuntu Studio
installed on top with the installer (Gnome).

The most important thing for me is being able to find the 
applications,

and then learning the tricks to arranging the open windows the way I
want them. It has never taken me long to work out a new desktop (but I
am a very basic user).

Maybe we should publish a guide to help people migrate from XFCE to
Plasma? What are the tips and tricks to carry on recording in the new
environment without embarrassing yourself in a professional scenario?


I'm assuming that, based on this, you haven't tried one of the daily 
Groovy

ISO images. If you boot it up, you'll notice the desktop is nearly
identical in layout with one exception: no desktop icons unless 
~/Desktop
has items. That's easily mitigated with the file manager (which is all 
the
desktop icons would open anyhow). Any number of shortcuts can also be 
added

to the desktop, and the user can customize it however they see fit.

The other exception would be the menu, but as Len pointed out to me, is
functionally similar to the Whisker menu in Xfce. If one wants a more
"classic" layout, a right-click on the launcher, then a click on "Show
Alternative" shows three other choices, including Application Menu, 
which

is more similar to the Xfce menu of old. I actually tried to get it to
default to that older menu, but it ended up being less customizable in
terms of default favorites, so I left it to the user to switch.

In any case, the menu items that we have laid out for the "Audio
Production" etc. menus carried over perfectly.

The learning curve really isn't all that steep, and if you have trouble
finding something, i.e. a setting, you can easily search for that in
"System Settings" as it's completely indexed and searchable. Another 
nice
thing is KRunner, which acts as a launcher similar to Apple's Spotlight 
on

macOS in that it will search just about everything, and even act as a
calculator. It's accessed via alt-space.

I guess there are a few menu shortcuts that differ, such as the
aforementioned alt-space being KRunner and not the window menu. The 
window

menu, by the way, is accessed via alt-F3.

So, yes, there are some differences, but I've done what I can to 
minimize
the learning curve. I think the best thing users can do is try it out 
and
play around with it. Especially in the live environment, don't be 
afraid to
try new things, and don't be afraid of breaking stuff since, unless 
you've

installed it, nothing is permanent.

And just for the 

Re: [ubuntu-studio-users] ubuntustudio and KDE

[Erich Eickmeyer]

Hi Ross,


On Fri, Jun 26, 2020 at 1:27 PM Ross Gammon  wrote:

> Hi Erich,
>
> I apologise for top posting, but I wanted to ask a quick related
> question. Maybe I missed it, but one thing I haven't seen mentioned is
> the upgrade path.
>
> It is clear to me that if you stay with 20.04 for the supported 3 years,
> you will keep whatever desktop you have (e.g. XFCE which is default for
> Ubuntu Studio).
>
> It is also clear that if you do a fresh install of Ubuntu Studio 20.10
> you will get Plasma.
>
> But what happens if you upgrade Ubuntu Studio from 20.04 to 20.10 (or
> from 20.04 to the next LTS release 22.04)? The announcement mentioned
> likely breakage? Personally, I would prefer that either I kept the same
> desktop, or I was smoothly migrated over to Plasma.
>

Not sure if you're aware, but Lubuntu has already forged this path for us.
When they switched their desktop from LXDE (no longer actively developed)
to LXQt (the merging of the LXDE and RazorQt projects) in 18.10 (and for
20.04 LTS) they had to make a tough call, and that was to not support any
direct upgrades from 18.04 to anything later, but to encourage clean
installs. Basically, since this seems to have been met with success, this
is the route that should be encouraged.

The biggest problem is that, due to the changes that had to happen in the
ubuntustudio-default-settings package, if one upgrades from 20.04 to 20.10
they *will* end up installing pretty much the entirety of the Plasma DE and
might end up with a crippled Xfce. Unfortunately, there's no real way
around this.


> I have always wondered what all the fuss is about with the "desktop
> debate". I use Ubuntu Studio on two machines. One is standard Ubuntu
> Studio (XFCE), and the other is standard Ubuntu with Ubuntu Studio
> installed on top with the installer (Gnome).
>
> The most important thing for me is being able to find the applications,
> and then learning the tricks to arranging the open windows the way I
> want them. It has never taken me long to work out a new desktop (but I
> am a very basic user).
>
> Maybe we should publish a guide to help people migrate from XFCE to
> Plasma? What are the tips and tricks to carry on recording in the new
> environment without embarrassing yourself in a professional scenario?
>
>
I'm assuming that, based on this, you haven't tried one of the daily Groovy
ISO images. If you boot it up, you'll notice the desktop is nearly
identical in layout with one exception: no desktop icons unless ~/Desktop
has items. That's easily mitigated with the file manager (which is all the
desktop icons would open anyhow). Any number of shortcuts can also be added
to the desktop, and the user can customize it however they see fit.

The other exception would be the menu, but as Len pointed out to me, is
functionally similar to the Whisker menu in Xfce. If one wants a more
"classic" layout, a right-click on the launcher, then a click on "Show
Alternative" shows three other choices, including Application Menu, which
is more similar to the Xfce menu of old. I actually tried to get it to
default to that older menu, but it ended up being less customizable in
terms of default favorites, so I left it to the user to switch.

In any case, the menu items that we have laid out for the "Audio
Production" etc. menus carried over perfectly.

The learning curve really isn't all that steep, and if you have trouble
finding something, i.e. a setting, you can easily search for that in
"System Settings" as it's completely indexed and searchable. Another nice
thing is KRunner, which acts as a launcher similar to Apple's Spotlight on
macOS in that it will search just about everything, and even act as a
calculator. It's accessed via alt-space.

I guess there are a few menu shortcuts that differ, such as the
aforementioned alt-space being KRunner and not the window menu. The window
menu, by the way, is accessed via alt-F3.

So, yes, there are some differences, but I've done what I can to minimize
the learning curve. I think the best thing users can do is try it out and
play around with it. Especially in the live environment, don't be afraid to
try new things, and don't be afraid of breaking stuff since, unless you've
installed it, nothing is permanent.

And just for the record, the overall reaction from the Linux community has
been positive about this transition. It has been the very vocal and few "my
way or the highway" critics that have been upset with this decision, which
took us the past two years to come to. Most of those critics haven't even
looked at Plasma (formerly known as KDE which is now the name of the
development community) for upwards of a decade when the extremely buggy and
heavy Plasma 4 was what people knew then as KDE. That was their impression,
so they automatically assume Plasma 5 is the same way, when that couldn't
be further from the truth.

As for a guide, I'm not sure what I'd write other than what I just wrote
there, but to be honest, I don't have much 

Re: [ubuntu-studio-users] ubuntustudio and KDE

[Ross Gammon]

Hi Erich,

I apologise for top posting, but I wanted to ask a quick related
question. Maybe I missed it, but one thing I haven't seen mentioned is
the upgrade path.

It is clear to me that if you stay with 20.04 for the supported 3 years,
you will keep whatever desktop you have (e.g. XFCE which is default for
Ubuntu Studio).

It is also clear that if you do a fresh install of Ubuntu Studio 20.10
you will get Plasma.

But what happens if you upgrade Ubuntu Studio from 20.04 to 20.10 (or
from 20.04 to the next LTS release 22.04)? The announcement mentioned
likely breakage? Personally, I would prefer that either I kept the same
desktop, or I was smoothly migrated over to Plasma.

I have always wondered what all the fuss is about with the "desktop
debate". I use Ubuntu Studio on two machines. One is standard Ubuntu
Studio (XFCE), and the other is standard Ubuntu with Ubuntu Studio
installed on top with the installer (Gnome).

The most important thing for me is being able to find the applications,
and then learning the tricks to arranging the open windows the way I
want them. It has never taken me long to work out a new desktop (but I
am a very basic user).

Maybe we should publish a guide to help people migrate from XFCE to
Plasma? What are the tips and tricks to carry on recording in the new
environment without embarrassing yourself in a professional scenario?

Cheers,

Ross

On 25/06/2020 22:37, Erich Eickmeyer wrote:
> 
> 
> On Thu, Jun 25, 2020 at 12:32 PM Mac  > wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> 
> I'm not sure I'm too upset either way.
> 
> I apologise, I did go to the archive and didn't find the beginning
> of this thread...but am curious, and I do remember the early
> posts...but, didn't take note:
> Can you reiterate why the change to KDE is being made?
> 
> 
> It was all covered
> here: https://ubuntustudio.org/2020/04/ubuntu-studio-20-04-lts-released/
> 
> The website should be your first source of information, not a mailing list.
>  
> 
> I will say I like the clean look of xfce and find KDE, in general,
> more "candy crush"ish or "Chiclets" to look at.
> 
> 
> The Plasma desktop we're using for 20.10 is themed exactly the same as
> KDE. And, if you have that opinion, it's clear you haven't even looked
> at Plasma in several years, perhaps even decades. There are some
> screenshots as to the progress made in the news section on the website,
> and you'll notice that the Plasma desktop for 20.10 looks nearly
> identical to our default Xfce for 20.04 LTS.
> 
>  
> 
> Also, again, just so I'm clear: I should not (when 20.10 arrives)
> install UbuntuStudio 20.10 and then xfce on it (this is what I do in
> vanilla, Debian, but I, of course don't have Ubuntu studio there
> either...). Again, just curious, is UBS that entwined in the desktop?
> 
> 
> Remember: Ubuntu Studio is Ubuntu and is not entwined with a destop. For
> the *supported* method of installing Ubuntu Studio on a different Ubuntu
> flavor (therefore, desktop), see
> here: https://ubuntustudio.org/ubuntu-studio-installer. Long story
> short, you'd use Xubuntu for Xfce.
> 
> Additionally, nobody is forcing you to use 20.10. 20.04 is an LTS
> release and is supported for 3 years.
> 
> (Note: to date, I've not paid much attention to desktops in general.
> To be honest I have better things to do than tweak colors, and
> backgrounds, etc. I'm one of those users who don't have ANY games on
> my PC's...and yes, I have far too many Linux machines on my home
> net...double digits.   )
> 
> 
> I'm going to be blunt here: you're not paying much attention in general,
> to either the website or to this mailing list where I've answered these
> questions ad-nauseum. This is literally the third time I've answered
> this question this week. Please read the website before posting on this
> mailing list in the future as all of these questions have been answered.
> 
> I mean, I'm sorry to sound rude, but you're simply not paying attention
> to already published information and answered questions.
> 
> -Erich
> 
> Erich Eickmeyer
> Project Leader
> Ubuntu Studio
> 
> ubuntustudio.org 
> 




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Re: [ubuntu-studio-users] ubuntustudio and KDE

[Erich Eickmeyer]

On Thu, Jun 25, 2020 at 12:32 PM Mac  wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I'm not sure I'm too upset either way.
>
> I apologise, I did go to the archive and didn't find the beginning of this
> thread...but am curious, and I do remember the early posts...but, didn't
> take note:
> Can you reiterate why the change to KDE is being made?
>
>
It was all covered here:
https://ubuntustudio.org/2020/04/ubuntu-studio-20-04-lts-released/

The website should be your first source of information, not a mailing list.


> I will say I like the clean look of xfce and find KDE, in general, more
> "candy crush"ish or "Chiclets" to look at.
>

The Plasma desktop we're using for 20.10 is themed exactly the same as KDE.
And, if you have that opinion, it's clear you haven't even looked at Plasma
in several years, perhaps even decades. There are some screenshots as to
the progress made in the news section on the website, and you'll notice
that the Plasma desktop for 20.10 looks nearly identical to our default
Xfce for 20.04 LTS.


>
Also, again, just so I'm clear: I should not (when 20.10 arrives) install
> UbuntuStudio 20.10 and then xfce on it (this is what I do in vanilla,
> Debian, but I, of course don't have Ubuntu studio there either...). Again,
> just curious, is UBS that entwined in the desktop?
>
>
Remember: Ubuntu Studio is Ubuntu and is not entwined with a destop. For
the *supported* method of installing Ubuntu Studio on a different Ubuntu
flavor (therefore, desktop), see here:
https://ubuntustudio.org/ubuntu-studio-installer. Long story short, you'd
use Xubuntu for Xfce.

Additionally, nobody is forcing you to use 20.10. 20.04 is an LTS release
and is supported for 3 years.

(Note: to date, I've not paid much attention to desktops in general. To be
> honest I have better things to do than tweak colors, and backgrounds, etc.
> I'm one of those users who don't have ANY games on my PC's...and yes, I
> have far too many Linux machines on my home net...double digits.   )
>
>
I'm going to be blunt here: you're not paying much attention in general, to
either the website or to this mailing list where I've answered these
questions ad-nauseum. This is literally the third time I've answered this
question this week. Please read the website before posting on this mailing
list in the future as all of these questions have been answered.

I mean, I'm sorry to sound rude, but you're simply not paying attention to
already published information and answered questions.

-Erich

Erich Eickmeyer
Project Leader
Ubuntu Studio

ubuntustudio.org
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Re: [ubuntu-studio-users] ubuntustudio and KDE

[Mac]

Hi,

I'm not sure I'm too upset either way.

I apologise, I did go to the archive and didn't find the beginning of this
thread...but am curious, and I do remember the early posts...but, didn't
take note:
Can you reiterate why the change to KDE is being made?

I will say I like the clean look of xfce and find KDE, in general, more
"candy crush"ish or "Chiclets" to look at.

Also, again, just so I'm clear: I should not (when 20.10 arrives) install
UbuntuStudio 20.10 and then xfce on it (this is what I do in vanilla,
Debian, but I, of course don't have Ubuntu studio there either...). Again,
just curious, is UBS that entwined in the desktop?

(Note: to date, I've not paid much attention to desktops in general. To be
honest I have better things to do than tweak colors, and backgrounds, etc.
I'm one of those users who don't have ANY games on my PC's...and yes, I
have far too many Linux machines on my home net...double digits.   )

Regards,
Mac
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Re: [ubuntu-studio-users] ubuntustudio and KDE

[Erich Eickmeyer]

Sorry about the earlier email, I hit send accidentally before I was ready.
Here's the complete email.

I want to make this as clear as possible: NOBODY IS FORCING YOU TO CHANGE.

Ubuntu Studio 20.04 LTS will remain Xfce. Support will continue until

April 2023.



Ubuntu Studio 20.10 and onward will be KDE Plasma.



*Ubuntu Studio Installer lets you put Ubuntu Studio on whatever

official flavor of Ubuntu you decide, and therefore whatever Desktop

Environment you decide.* For instance, to use Xfce with Ubuntu Studio

20.10 you'd install Xubuntu and then use Ubuntu Studio Installer

(https://ubuntustudio.org/ubuntu-studio-installer) to install the

tools and backend configurations on Xubuntu. You can do the same with

Ubuntu, Lubuntu, Ubuntu Budgie, Ubuntu Kylin, and Ubuntu MATE.



At no point do we ever recommend installing an additional desktop

environment on any flavor of Ubuntu as we, and other Ubuntu flavors,

simply cannot support it.



For those that wish to preview Ubuntu Studio with the KDE Plasma

switchover complete, you can look at the Ubuntu Studio Groovy Gorilla

daily images at http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/ubuntustudio/dvd/current.

Please stop assuming the worst.


On Thu, Jun 25, 2020 at 9:52 AM hans Schneidhofer 
wrote:

> hi list,
>
> my "problem" is not the KDE-Environment itself. But if anyone uses
> ubuntustudio for 8 years in a Production-Environment, in most cases it
> is not enough time, to learn a new environment during studio-jobs.
>
> So, with xfce I know all the knobs and places, where I can find all the
> needed things and this is a really rally big advantage, if the mix has
> to be finished as fast as possible and master-DVD or whatever Source
> can be produced by our partner.
>
> In addition, studio time is still very precious and therefore scarce.
>
> Maybe, if some time is available I will spend this time to try aout
> this KDE-Environment. But ist is not a good idea to do this during
> working time.
>
> I hope this makes some things clearer why I am reluctant to switch from
> xfce to KDE at the moment.
>
> thanks one more time for the hints, how to use ubuntustudio 20.4 in my
> usual work environment.
>
> bye hans
>
>
> --
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Re: [ubuntu-studio-users] ubuntustudio and KDE

[Erich Eickmeyer]

I want to make this as clear as possible: NOBODY IS FORCING YOU TO CHANGE.

On Thu, Jun 25, 2020 at 9:52 AM hans Schneidhofer 
wrote:

> hi list,
>
> my "problem" is not the KDE-Environment itself. But if anyone uses
> ubuntustudio for 8 years in a Production-Environment, in most cases it
> is not enough time, to learn a new environment during studio-jobs.
>
> So, with xfce I know all the knobs and places, where I can find all the
> needed things and this is a really rally big advantage, if the mix has
> to be finished as fast as possible and master-DVD or whatever Source
> can be produced by our partner.
>
> In addition, studio time is still very precious and therefore scarce.
>
> Maybe, if some time is available I will spend this time to try aout
> this KDE-Environment. But ist is not a good idea to do this during
> working time.
>
> I hope this makes some things clearer why I am reluctant to switch from
> xfce to KDE at the moment.
>
> thanks one more time for the hints, how to use ubuntustudio 20.4 in my
> usual work environment.
>
> bye hans
>
>
> --
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> ubuntu-studio-users@lists.ubuntu.com
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[ubuntu-studio-users] ubuntustudio and KDE

[hans Schneidhofer]

hi list,

my "problem" is not the KDE-Environment itself. But if anyone uses
ubuntustudio for 8 years in a Production-Environment, in most cases it
is not enough time, to learn a new environment during studio-jobs.

So, with xfce I know all the knobs and places, where I can find all the
needed things and this is a really rally big advantage, if the mix has
to be finished as fast as possible and master-DVD or whatever Source
can be produced by our partner.

In addition, studio time is still very precious and therefore scarce.

Maybe, if some time is available I will spend this time to try aout
this KDE-Environment. But ist is not a good idea to do this during
working time.

I hope this makes some things clearer why I am reluctant to switch from
xfce to KDE at the moment.

thanks one more time for the hints, how to use ubuntustudio 20.4 in my
usual work environment.

bye hans


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