Re: Natty and RT Kernel (was "Maverick and RT")
Selon Ricardo Lameiro : > Hi Laurent > > I am very happy with the work beeing done with lprod and other groups around > linux and multimedia. > the main problem about Ubuntu Studio, is that people dont have patience to > work with ubuntu rules. > Ubuntu studio is a community version, but that is partly supported by > ubuntu. So freeze, new app insertions etc need to be made by ubuntu /debian > rules. > The problem is that people dont want to follow that rules, at least > packaging. If insted of making that new distros with other packages with > newers software, maybe the devs could join the already existing teams. > Ubuntu studio and debian multimedia and help packaging more upstream as > possible. because, they benefit from the work from others, but I dont see > them contributing back. > Shame on them. Falktx maintains a ppa for both ubuntu studio and kxstudio. I > understand he want to make a kde derivative, but why another gnome one??? > why doesnt that devs come to the #ubuntustudio-devel IRC channel? > > but, they do things on top of others. > > Audio linux users are very few, and if people start splitting, then it will > be worse... but is related to musician, everyone want to pass on top of the > others to say they are better, instead of collaborate > > sorry for the rant, but it is very disapointing to see this stuff happenn > > PS. worse of all, they dont even use a good kernel for multimedia. Hi Ricardo, i'm absolutly agree with you, wasting theses energies in too many distros are making a clean road to propriotary software. I'm gonna make my best to convert his mind, and at the same time for other devs/packagers... Bye Laurent Bellegarde Laurent, Professeur de SVT, laurent.bellega...@free.fr Lycée Louis de Foix, Bayonne, 64, France, Euskadi video libre : www.lprod.org ; Association : www.euskalug.org -- Ubuntu-Studio-users mailing list Ubuntu-Studio-users@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-studio-users
Re: Natty and RT Kernel (was "Maverick and RT")
On Thu, Sep 30, 2010 at 11:26 AM, Ricardo Lameiro wrote: > Hi Laurent > > I am very happy with the work beeing done with lprod and other groups > around linux and multimedia. > the main problem about Ubuntu Studio, is that people dont have patience to > work with ubuntu rules. > Ubuntu studio is a community version, but that is partly supported by > ubuntu. So freeze, new app insertions etc need to be made by ubuntu /debian > rules. > The problem is that people dont want to follow that rules, at least > packaging. If insted of making that new distros with other packages with > newers software, maybe the devs could join the already existing teams. > Ubuntu studio and debian multimedia and help packaging more upstream as > possible. because, they benefit from the work from others, but I dont see > them contributing back. > Shame on them. Falktx maintains a ppa for both ubuntu studio and kxstudio. > I understand he want to make a kde derivative, but why another gnome one??? > why doesnt that devs come to the #ubuntustudio-devel IRC channel? > > but, they do things on top of others. > > Audio linux users are very few, and if people start splitting, then it will > be worse... but is related to musician, everyone want to pass on top of the > others to say they are better, instead of collaborate > > sorry for the rant, but it is very disapointing to see this stuff happenn > > PS. worse of all, they dont even use a good kernel for multimedia. > > I can empathize with some of the reasons people want to make their own distro, but Linux audio is never going to progress until we get enough people focused on just one project. At this point, I feel Ubuntu Studio should be that project, because of it's connection to Ubuntu in general. I've tried several other distros, as I think all of us have, with varying degrees of success. While some distros are easier and more effective than others, it should be remembered that there is *not a single one that is usable by the average audio enthusiast*. At this point, someone who wants to get into Linux audio either needs to have some familiarity with Linux, or a lot of curiosity and a whole lot of free time. Ubuntu's approach has gone a long way towards making desktop Linux accessible to the normal person. We should extend that vision by using Ubuntu's powerful community to develop as easy to use and accessible a multimedia-workstation as possible. Why try to build a whole new community by scratch, when Ubuntu has already done that for us? One last thought on -rt kernels. Some people have mentioned that real-time is only for performance enthusiasts. This is not entirely true. There are definitely some computers that are not usable as a DAW in any manner without a -rt kernel. -- -Brian David -- Ubuntu-Studio-users mailing list Ubuntu-Studio-users@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-studio-users
Re: Natty and RT Kernel (was "Maverick and RT")
Hi Laurent I am very happy with the work beeing done with lprod and other groups around linux and multimedia. the main problem about Ubuntu Studio, is that people dont have patience to work with ubuntu rules. Ubuntu studio is a community version, but that is partly supported by ubuntu. So freeze, new app insertions etc need to be made by ubuntu /debian rules. The problem is that people dont want to follow that rules, at least packaging. If insted of making that new distros with other packages with newers software, maybe the devs could join the already existing teams. Ubuntu studio and debian multimedia and help packaging more upstream as possible. because, they benefit from the work from others, but I dont see them contributing back. Shame on them. Falktx maintains a ppa for both ubuntu studio and kxstudio. I understand he want to make a kde derivative, but why another gnome one??? why doesnt that devs come to the #ubuntustudio-devel IRC channel? but, they do things on top of others. Audio linux users are very few, and if people start splitting, then it will be worse... but is related to musician, everyone want to pass on top of the others to say they are better, instead of collaborate sorry for the rant, but it is very disapointing to see this stuff happenn PS. worse of all, they dont even use a good kernel for multimedia. 2010/9/30 Ralf Mardorf > You were asking for people using Ubuntu + Kernel-rt. > > I'm using 64 Studio 3.0 (Hardy) and 3.3 (Karmic) with the 64 Studio's > multimedia kernel, which is a kernel-rt and several self build kernel-rt > (vanilla + patch). > > Regarding to different distros based on Ubuntu vs all developers just to > work on Ubuntu Studio: > > For example it's possible to add the 64 Studio repository to Ubuntu > Studio, assumed they are based on the same version of Ubuntu (Karmic, > Lucid etc.). > > I don't think that there are distros hat do use JACK as the sound > server, but e.g. 64 Studio ships without PulseAudio, so all consumer > desktop apps do use ALSA directly, which is an advantage for users who > need JACK for audio apps, because without PulseAudio there's no pain for > flashplayer etc., vene whe JACK is needed for Ardour, Qtractor or what > app ever. > > And again a kernel-rt for Linux or ASIO for Windows does no hard > real-time, it's still a soft kind of real-time, so anything less, but a > kernel-rt IMO isn't good for a multimedia distro. > > I would like to see Ubuntu Studio supporting the kernel-rt. > > - Ralf > > > -- > Ubuntu-Studio-users mailing list > Ubuntu-Studio-users@lists.ubuntu.com > Modify settings or unsubscribe at: > https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-studio-users > -- Fagote / Contrafagote Bassoon / Contra-bassoon http://myspace.com/ricardolameiro -- Ubuntu-Studio-users mailing list Ubuntu-Studio-users@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-studio-users
Re: Natty and RT Kernel (was "Maverick and RT")
You were asking for people using Ubuntu + Kernel-rt. I'm using 64 Studio 3.0 (Hardy) and 3.3 (Karmic) with the 64 Studio's multimedia kernel, which is a kernel-rt and several self build kernel-rt (vanilla + patch). Regarding to different distros based on Ubuntu vs all developers just to work on Ubuntu Studio: For example it's possible to add the 64 Studio repository to Ubuntu Studio, assumed they are based on the same version of Ubuntu (Karmic, Lucid etc.). I don't think that there are distros hat do use JACK as the sound server, but e.g. 64 Studio ships without PulseAudio, so all consumer desktop apps do use ALSA directly, which is an advantage for users who need JACK for audio apps, because without PulseAudio there's no pain for flashplayer etc., vene whe JACK is needed for Ardour, Qtractor or what app ever. And again a kernel-rt for Linux or ASIO for Windows does no hard real-time, it's still a soft kind of real-time, so anything less, but a kernel-rt IMO isn't good for a multimedia distro. I would like to see Ubuntu Studio supporting the kernel-rt. - Ralf -- Ubuntu-Studio-users mailing list Ubuntu-Studio-users@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-studio-users
Re: Natty and RT Kernel (was "Maverick and RT")
Selon Alessio Igor Bogani : > Hi Jeremy, > > 2010/9/30 Jeremy Jongepier : > [...] > > I don't need yet another distro. I want to use Ubuntu. All those forks, > > KX Studio, Tango Studio, Dream Studio etc. Why don't they join up with > > Ubuntu to make Ubuntu the best multimedia/audio distribution? > > Right! > > Ciao, > Alessio Hi all, You have to know that i'm agree with you, no need to create another distro, only improving the good ones which are already existing. Tango studio has a very good improvements who are missing in UBS. The main trouble in free software is to find people working together. Changing operating system on computer is very easy, but changing mind in mankind is much more difficult. When you need people to help you in difficult work as maintening a RT kernel, people left. I had an important talk with the author, and contributing in UBS is not his goal. As many audio users, he think UBS is disappointing in the latest release, working only with many tweaks not very easy for usual users. No way to make him change his opinion. I've told him the best way to improve free software use is to mix the best project, but as in certain time UBS team, changing people is too hard or impossible, and that's the main lack of free software. Maybe it could be good idea to use his new deb packages more stable in Ubuntu or Ubuntu studio 10.04...That's the way i'm gonna work for all. Laurent lprod.org > > -- > Ubuntu-Studio-users mailing list > Ubuntu-Studio-users@lists.ubuntu.com > Modify settings or unsubscribe at: > https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-studio-users > Bellegarde Laurent, Professeur de SVT, laurent.bellega...@free.fr Lycée Louis de Foix, Bayonne, 64, France, Euskadi video libre : www.lprod.org ; Association : www.euskalug.org -- Ubuntu-Studio-users mailing list Ubuntu-Studio-users@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-studio-users
Re: Natty and RT Kernel (was "Maverick and RT")
Hi Ralf, 2010/9/30 Ralf Mardorf : [...] > First of all, "on-demand" for the CPU frequency scaling vs "performance" > cat config-[...] | grep CONFIG_CPU_FREQ_DEFAULT_GOV_PERFORMANCE > should be set up to 'y'. [...] > I experienced that Rui's rtirq script doesn't have much impact, but it > anyway should be included. [...] > On some machines JACK1 seem to work better and on other machines JACK2. [...] > A big problem is MIDI, when controlling stand alone devices, then jitter > very often is an issue. [...] > If we run uname -a and the kernel is just a > > PREEMPT > but a > PREEMPT RT > > 'things' are more worse. IMO we only do need 'real' real-time kernels. [...] > We don't need latest Desktop candy supported by generic kernels, but > well tuned disros + kernel-rt, to get a good audio workstation. Life is a trade-off: someone want a very hard real-time system without adopt other hardware architectures than pc (MCU, FPGA/ASIC, and so on), others want use normal and cheap pc, others want use also accelerated drivers also, others want a real-system which take care of they laptop's batteries too. And at the end we have limited resources(*) for give an answer on these needs (we are all volunteers). Obviously We can't do all these things so we have to choose: It is sad but it is the life. It is on leader, developers team and comunity choose that trade-off. Ciao, Alessio (*) In ideal world we certainly choose to work on -rt instead than on -lowlatency. -- Ubuntu-Studio-users mailing list Ubuntu-Studio-users@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-studio-users
Re: Natty and RT Kernel (was "Maverick and RT")
30.09.2010 11:18, Bellegarde Laurent kirjoitti: > i've tried it, in 32 bits, under a dvd live, and jack, rt kernel and all best > softwares in audio are working without a crash in live session. This is real bug for me, not resolved in 10.04 (there is a fix for 9.10 and 10.10): https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/pulseaudio/+bug/178442 So I can't use anything based in 10.04, sorry. Now that fix works again for 10.10 I like to stay in same boat with Alessio ;-) Best Regards Asmo Koskinen. -- Ubuntu-Studio-users mailing list Ubuntu-Studio-users@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-studio-users
Re: Natty and RT Kernel (was "Maverick and RT")
On 09/30/2010 10:32 AM, Alessio Igor Bogani wrote: > Jeremy, > > 2010/9/30 Jeremy Jongepier : > [...] cut it for me, like I said, I need the tasklet API the -rt kernel provides so I can use rtirq. >>> >>> Probably you meant IRQ Threads. >>> >> >> I need the tasklet API the -rt kernel provides so I can use rtirq to >> prioritize IRQ threads ;) > > Not all bottom-halves have done with tasklet API (network stack for > example uses softirq) and you still configure they priorities with > chrt (real utility behind rtirq). So you really need for IRQ Threads > not for Tasklet API. > > I really don't want go into technicism but I suppose could help you > know what you are really need to. :-) > He he, no need to go technical, I still need to dive into this, it's still not 100% clear to me how it all works. But if you have some pointers I'd be grateful! Best, Jeremy -- Ubuntu-Studio-users mailing list Ubuntu-Studio-users@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-studio-users
Re: Natty and RT Kernel (was "Maverick and RT")
Hi Jeremy, 2010/9/30 Jeremy Jongepier : [...] > I don't need yet another distro. I want to use Ubuntu. All those forks, > KX Studio, Tango Studio, Dream Studio etc. Why don't they join up with > Ubuntu to make Ubuntu the best multimedia/audio distribution? Right! Ciao, Alessio -- Ubuntu-Studio-users mailing list Ubuntu-Studio-users@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-studio-users
Re: Natty and RT Kernel (was "Maverick and RT")
On 09/30/2010 10:18 AM, Bellegarde Laurent wrote: > Selon Jeremy Jongepier : Concerning support, it would be best if there were kernels for every release simply because it would be a bummer if people would move away from Ubuntu because of this. >>> >>> That require a lot of energy. If a lot of people will be available for >>> help we could do it. >>> >>> Ciao, >>> Alessio >>> >> > > Hi all, another info for ones who need a very stable audio distro for audio > production. > Salut Laurent, I don't need yet another distro. I want to use Ubuntu. All those forks, KX Studio, Tango Studio, Dream Studio etc. Why don't they join up with Ubuntu to make Ubuntu the best multimedia/audio distribution? > Theses improvements make this distro the best GNU/Linux audio, or multimedia > editing plateform. > That's a personal opinion. Any distro could be the best when properly configured. The aforementioned distros are not IMHO. They all use JACK as the default sound daemon while JACK is not intended to be used like that. Ciao, Jeremy -- Ubuntu-Studio-users mailing list Ubuntu-Studio-users@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-studio-users
Re: Natty and RT Kernel (was "Maverick and RT")
Jeremy, 2010/9/30 Jeremy Jongepier : [...] >>> cut it for me, like I said, I need the tasklet API the -rt kernel >>> provides so I can use rtirq. >> >> Probably you meant IRQ Threads. >> > > I need the tasklet API the -rt kernel provides so I can use rtirq to > prioritize IRQ threads ;) Not all bottom-halves have done with tasklet API (network stack for example uses softirq) and you still configure they priorities with chrt (real utility behind rtirq). So you really need for IRQ Threads not for Tasklet API. I really don't want go into technicism but I suppose could help you know what you are really need to. :-) [...] > a good thing to think about how many Ubuntu users are actually using the > -rt kernel and if it's really worth the effort in putting a lot of > energy in maintaining these kernels. Definitely Agreed. Ciao, Alessio -- Ubuntu-Studio-users mailing list Ubuntu-Studio-users@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-studio-users
Re: Natty and RT Kernel (was "Maverick and RT")
Hi Laurent, 2010/9/30 Bellegarde Laurent : [...] > A french guy, create a new distro, called "Tango studio", which could be > understand as an evolution of Ubuntu Studioor a fork... [...] > http://tangostudio.tuxfamily.org/en/tangostudio Cutted from that site: "La distribution en version 1.0 propose le noyau Temps Réel 2.6.32-24-lowlatency par défaut" Please note -lowlatency at the end of the kernel version number. Ciao, Alessio -- Ubuntu-Studio-users mailing list Ubuntu-Studio-users@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-studio-users
Re: Natty and RT Kernel (was "Maverick and RT")
Selon Jeremy Jongepier : > >> Concerning support, it would be best if there were kernels for every > >> release simply because it would be a bummer if people would move away > >> from Ubuntu because of this. > > > > That require a lot of energy. If a lot of people will be available for > > help we could do it. > > > > Ciao, > > Alessio > > > Hi all, another info for ones who need a very stable audio distro for audio production. A french guy, create a new distro, called "Tango studio", which could be understand as an evolution of Ubuntu Studioor a fork... Many users have audio troubles with RT kernel, or audio softwares, so he create a stable release tango studio 1.0 based on lucid 10.04 LTS. i've tried it, in 32 bits, under a dvd live, and jack, rt kernel and all best softwares in audio are working without a crash in live session. A 64 bits release is now under construction, maybe available for october the 10. After install, it's possible to add graphics and video editing tools to complete the distrib. Theses improvements make this distro the best GNU/Linux audio, or multimedia editing plateform. Enjoy the tests. An URL here to download : http://tangostudio.tuxfamily.org/en/tangostudio English and french are available. in live, only english language is available, in install, all the language. more info in french only here : http://www.lprod.org/wiki/doku.php/autres:tango_studio Laurent lprod.org Bellegarde Laurent, Professeur de SVT, laurent.bellega...@free.fr Lycée Louis de Foix, Bayonne, 64, France, Euskadi video libre : www.lprod.org ; Association : www.euskalug.org -- Ubuntu-Studio-users mailing list Ubuntu-Studio-users@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-studio-users
Re: Natty and RT Kernel (was "Maverick and RT")
On 09/30/2010 08:37 AM, Alessio Igor Bogani wrote: > Hi Jeremy, > > 2010/9/30 Jeremy Jongepier : > [...] >> multimedia room with some Ubuntu machines). I've actually never seen a >> -realtime kernel, what's the difference from -rt? -lowlatency doesn't > > From a technical point of view -rt and -realtime are the same kernel. > A minor difference is that the -rt kernel offer the "really stable" > and upstream official release 2.6.31 whereas -realtime offers the last > official upstream release that is 2.6.33. But there are the same > kernel (that is PREEMPT_RT). The main difference is the external > support. In -rt I have tried to offer an usable system as like Ubuntu > do (so I have worked on compatibility with closed video drivers for > example like nvidia or fglrx) whereas with -realtime I don't enforce > it at all. > > In less words: if you need of closed video drivers, external DKMS > kernel modules, linux-backports-* you should probably start to use > -lowlatency (when it will be available through Ubuntu repos). Instead > if you really need of an real-time system you should avoid all above > or trying to make those working alone. > Thanks for the explanation. Personally I don't care about external support and I'm very happy with the open source nouveau and radeon drivers. From a community perspective it's different though and I think we shouldn't loose that out of sight either. I'd really like to know how everyone else thinks about that, what is the common ground towards -rt/-realtime etc.? >> cut it for me, like I said, I need the tasklet API the -rt kernel >> provides so I can use rtirq. > > Probably you meant IRQ Threads. > I need the tasklet API the -rt kernel provides so I can use rtirq to prioritize IRQ threads ;) >> Concerning support, it would be best if there were kernels for every >> release simply because it would be a bummer if people would move away >> from Ubuntu because of this. > > That require a lot of energy. If a lot of people will be available for > help we could do it. > > Ciao, > Alessio > I understand and maybe my opinion on this was a bit premature. It maybe a good thing to think about how many Ubuntu users are actually using the -rt kernel and if it's really worth the effort in putting a lot of energy in maintaining these kernels. Best, Jeremy -- Ubuntu-Studio-users mailing list Ubuntu-Studio-users@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-studio-users
Re: Natty and RT Kernel (was "Maverick and RT")
On Thu, 2010-09-30 at 09:05 +0200, Alessio Igor Bogani wrote: > Ralf, > > 2010/9/30 Ralf Mardorf : > [...] > > That's bad reasoning. Just because an app isn't ok, when using a > > kernel-rt, low latency without rt isn't the better solution. > > Independently, did you ensure that the kernel-rt runs with CPU frequency > > scaling set up to performance? And did you test what will happen, if you > > don't use rakarrack, but a heavy audio and MIDI set up? Did you compare > > JACK1 and JACK2? Etc.? > > Especially for external MIDI devices the so called Linux rt is far away > > from hard rt. > > Resume, even when using a kernel-rt, Linux is far away from hard rt, we > > do need support of the kernel-rt for multimedia work and all the apps, > > that do cause issues, when using a kernel-rt, need rework. > > Sorry but my understanding of English is very limited. > Could you explain your thoughts in a more simple manner? > Thanks. > > Ciao, > Alessio Hi Alessio :) my English is terrible broken too :D. I experienced the real-time kernels as the only valid kernels for audio and MIDI recordings. Anyway, when using a real-time kernel the set up needs some tuning and I always have problems with this tuning. First of all, "on-demand" for the CPU frequency scaling vs "performance" cat config-[...] | grep CONFIG_CPU_FREQ_DEFAULT_GOV_PERFORMANCE should be set up to 'y'. I experienced that Rui's rtirq script doesn't have much impact, but it anyway should be included. On some machines JACK1 seem to work better and on other machines JACK2. A big problem is MIDI, when controlling stand alone devices, then jitter very often is an issue. If we run uname -a and the kernel is just a PREEMPT but a PREEMPT RT 'things' are more worse. IMO we only do need 'real' real-time kernels. We can't get hard real-time for modern PCs. Hard real-time only is possible when directly talking to the hardware, as it is done e.g. by the C64 on Assembler ... ask the UART if there's a byte ... LDA the register LSR BCC to LDA turn of the IRQ!!! ... SEI ... I'm unable to program for Linux, but for sure nor Linux, neither Windows is able to do this kind of hard real-time, e.g. to turn of all IRQs. The Linux folks who program the kernel-rt patches try to get as near as possible to the oldish hard real-time programming, any other kernel, but rt patched kernels aren't usable for music productions. Some applications might not use JACK in the best way, so they could cause xruns etc.. I'm really not the right person to teach this stuff, because I don't have the needed knowledge myself, but for sure Paul Davis won't recommend to run JACK and Ardour without a kernel-rt. We don't need latest Desktop candy supported by generic kernels, but well tuned disros + kernel-rt, to get a good audio workstation. Cheers! Ralf -- Ubuntu-Studio-users mailing list Ubuntu-Studio-users@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-studio-users
Re: Natty and RT Kernel (was "Maverick and RT")
Ralf, 2010/9/30 Ralf Mardorf : [...] > That's bad reasoning. Just because an app isn't ok, when using a > kernel-rt, low latency without rt isn't the better solution. > Independently, did you ensure that the kernel-rt runs with CPU frequency > scaling set up to performance? And did you test what will happen, if you > don't use rakarrack, but a heavy audio and MIDI set up? Did you compare > JACK1 and JACK2? Etc.? > Especially for external MIDI devices the so called Linux rt is far away > from hard rt. > Resume, even when using a kernel-rt, Linux is far away from hard rt, we > do need support of the kernel-rt for multimedia work and all the apps, > that do cause issues, when using a kernel-rt, need rework. Sorry but my understanding of English is very limited. Could you explain your thoughts in a more simple manner? Thanks. Ciao, Alessio -- Ubuntu-Studio-users mailing list Ubuntu-Studio-users@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-studio-users
Re: Natty and RT Kernel (was "Maverick and RT")
On Thu, Sep 30, 2010 at 08:37:27AM +0200, Alessio Igor Bogani wrote: > Hi Jeremy, > > 2010/9/30 Jeremy Jongepier : > > > Concerning support, it would be best if there were kernels for every > > release simply because it would be a bummer if people would move away > > from Ubuntu because of this. > > That require a lot of energy. If a lot of people will be available for > help we could do it. You can count me in, like we discussed on IRC. -- Jaska (aka astraljava) signature.asc Description: Digital signature -- Ubuntu-Studio-users mailing list Ubuntu-Studio-users@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-studio-users
Re: Natty and RT Kernel (was "Maverick and RT")
Hi Jeremy, 2010/9/30 Jeremy Jongepier : [...] > multimedia room with some Ubuntu machines). I've actually never seen a > -realtime kernel, what's the difference from -rt? -lowlatency doesn't >From a technical point of view -rt and -realtime are the same kernel. A minor difference is that the -rt kernel offer the "really stable" and upstream official release 2.6.31 whereas -realtime offers the last official upstream release that is 2.6.33. But there are the same kernel (that is PREEMPT_RT). The main difference is the external support. In -rt I have tried to offer an usable system as like Ubuntu do (so I have worked on compatibility with closed video drivers for example like nvidia or fglrx) whereas with -realtime I don't enforce it at all. In less words: if you need of closed video drivers, external DKMS kernel modules, linux-backports-* you should probably start to use -lowlatency (when it will be available through Ubuntu repos). Instead if you really need of an real-time system you should avoid all above or trying to make those working alone. > cut it for me, like I said, I need the tasklet API the -rt kernel > provides so I can use rtirq. Probably you meant IRQ Threads. > Concerning support, it would be best if there were kernels for every > release simply because it would be a bummer if people would move away > from Ubuntu because of this. That require a lot of energy. If a lot of people will be available for help we could do it. Ciao, Alessio -- Ubuntu-Studio-users mailing list Ubuntu-Studio-users@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-studio-users
Re: Natty and RT Kernel (was "Maverick and RT")
On Thu, 2010-09-30 at 08:19 +0200, Alessio Igor Bogani wrote: > Hi Ronan, > > 2010/9/30 Ronan Jouchet : > [...] > > latencies I reached with no xruns during a 10min rakarrack session on my > > test laptop (Dell Vostro V13 with a TI firewire card): > > -generic: 16ms > > -lowlatency: 4ms (@2ms: tons of xruns) > > -realtime: 4ms (@2ms: many xruns) > > > > To put it simply: -lowlatency all the way! It delivers impressive > > results for maintenance requirements way lower than -realtime (or -rt > > even more), meaning less work for maintainers and new kernel candy for > > users. > [...] > > A few diehard performance fans may appreciate a PPA with -rt, but if > > there must be one sustainable and supported priority, it is -lowlatency. > > At least at the end someone have noticed it! :-) > > Ciao, > Alessio That's bad reasoning. Just because an app isn't ok, when using a kernel-rt, low latency without rt isn't the better solution. Independently, did you ensure that the kernel-rt runs with CPU frequency scaling set up to performance? And did you test what will happen, if you don't use rakarrack, but a heavy audio and MIDI set up? Did you compare JACK1 and JACK2? Etc.? Especially for external MIDI devices the so called Linux rt is far away from hard rt. Resume, even when using a kernel-rt, Linux is far away from hard rt, we do need support of the kernel-rt for multimedia work and all the apps, that do cause issues, when using a kernel-rt, need rework. - Ralf -- Ubuntu-Studio-users mailing list Ubuntu-Studio-users@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-studio-users
Re: Natty and RT Kernel (was "Maverick and RT")
Hi Asmo, 2010/9/30 Asmo Koskinen : [...] > Alessio, you can count me in. Just tell us, what and how to test so it > really helps you. Thanks in advance for you help! :-) > Btw, generic kernel do the job in basic level. > > as...@ubuntu:~$ uname -a > Linux ubuntu 2.6.35-22-generic #33-Ubuntu SMP Sun Sep 19 20:32:27 UTC <-- here is missing an external workload -> > as...@ubuntu:~$ /usr/bin/jackd -P89 -m -dalsa -dhw:0 -r44100 -p128 -n2 -Xseq > jackdmp 1.9.6 [...] An external workload could be: find / -iname "*m*" sudo dd if=/dev/zero of=/dev/null Run a virtualized system with KVM And so on Or using some specific external (ready to run) utilities like cyclictest (rt-tests package). Ciao, Alessio -- Ubuntu-Studio-users mailing list Ubuntu-Studio-users@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-studio-users
Re: Natty and RT Kernel (was "Maverick and RT")
Hi Ronan, 2010/9/30 Ronan Jouchet : [...] > latencies I reached with no xruns during a 10min rakarrack session on my > test laptop (Dell Vostro V13 with a TI firewire card): > -generic: 16ms > -lowlatency: 4ms (@2ms: tons of xruns) > -realtime: 4ms (@2ms: many xruns) > > To put it simply: -lowlatency all the way! It delivers impressive > results for maintenance requirements way lower than -realtime (or -rt > even more), meaning less work for maintainers and new kernel candy for > users. [...] > A few diehard performance fans may appreciate a PPA with -rt, but if > there must be one sustainable and supported priority, it is -lowlatency. At least at the end someone have noticed it! :-) Ciao, Alessio -- Ubuntu-Studio-users mailing list Ubuntu-Studio-users@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-studio-users
Re: Natty and RT Kernel (was "Maverick and RT")
On 09/29/2010 10:16 PM, Alessio Igor Bogani wrote: > Hi Brian, Hi Jeremy, > > Sorry for my very bad English. > > Which are kernels on you are interested in? The -rt, -lowlatency or -realtime? > Which kernels you use on per day basis (so you can provide test and feedback)? > Which Ubuntu releases do you would want see well supported for > that/those kernels? Every releases or only LTS? > > Thanks! > > Ciao, > Alessio Hello Alessio, I only use the -rt kernel, both at home and at work (we have a multimedia room with some Ubuntu machines). I've actually never seen a -realtime kernel, what's the difference from -rt? -lowlatency doesn't cut it for me, like I said, I need the tasklet API the -rt kernel provides so I can use rtirq. Concerning support, it would be best if there were kernels for every release simply because it would be a bummer if people would move away from Ubuntu because of this. Best, Jeremy -- Ubuntu-Studio-users mailing list Ubuntu-Studio-users@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-studio-users
Re: Natty and RT Kernel (was "Maverick and RT")
30.09.2010 07:51, Ronan Jouchet kirjoitti: > Exciting times! Alessio, you can count me in. Just tell us, what and how to test so it really helps you. Btw, generic kernel do the job in basic level. as...@ubuntu:~$ uname -a Linux ubuntu 2.6.35-22-generic #33-Ubuntu SMP Sun Sep 19 20:32:27 UTC 2010 x86_64 GNU/Linux as...@ubuntu:~$ /usr/bin/jackd -P89 -m -dalsa -dhw:0 -r44100 -p128 -n2 -Xseq jackdmp 1.9.6 no message buffer overruns no message buffer overruns JACK server starting in realtime mode with priority 89 audio_reservation_init Acquire audio card Audio0 creating alsa driver ... hw:0|hw:0|128|2|44100|0|0|nomon|swmeter|-|32bit Using ALSA driver ICE1712 running on card 0 - M Audio Delta 66 at 0x1040, irq 22 configuring for 44100Hz, period = 128 frames (2.9 ms), buffer = 2 periods ALSA: final selected sample format for capture: 32bit integer little-endian ALSA: use 2 periods for capture ALSA: final selected sample format for playback: 32bit integer little-endian ALSA: use 2 periods for playback port created: Midi-Through:midi/playback_1 port created: Midi-Through:midi/capture_1 port created: USB-Keystation-49e:midi/playback_1 port created: USB-Keystation-49e:midi/capture_1 Best Regards Asmo Koskinen. -- Ubuntu-Studio-users mailing list Ubuntu-Studio-users@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-studio-users
Re: Natty and RT Kernel (was "Maverick and RT")
On 09/29/2010 05:13 PM, Scott Lavender wrote: > I would expect the -lowlatency and -generic kernels to be in the > archives and therefore can be included on the ISO. > > Therefore, my suggestions would be to focus on the -lowlatency (which > will need to be community maintained and in the repos) and the -rt > kernel (which many users desire for performance but maintained in a PPA). After testing I fully agree with this compromise. Below are the latencies I reached with no xruns during a 10min rakarrack session on my test laptop (Dell Vostro V13 with a TI firewire card): -generic: 16ms -lowlatency: 4ms (@2ms: tons of xruns) -realtime: 4ms (@2ms: many xruns) To put it simply: -lowlatency all the way! It delivers impressive results for maintenance requirements way lower than -realtime (or -rt even more), meaning less work for maintainers and new kernel candy for users. A few diehard performance fans may appreciate a PPA with -rt, but if there must be one sustainable and supported priority, it is -lowlatency. Exciting times! -- Ubuntu-Studio-users mailing list Ubuntu-Studio-users@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-studio-users
Re: Natty and RT Kernel (was "Maverick and RT")
On Wed, Sep 29, 2010 at 4:22 PM, Brian David wrote: > On Wed, Sep 29, 2010 at 4:13 PM, Scott Lavender > wrote: > >> >> I don't mean to be a wet blanket, but I want people to have realistic >> expectations as well. >> >> I would not expect the -preempt, -rt, or -realtime kernels to be >> maintained in the official archives (repositories). These would need to be >> maintained in a PPA, although it is probable that this could be maintained >> in an official Ubuntu Studio PPA. It is my understanding that these kernels >> cannot be included in the Ubuntu Studio ISO if they are not in the archives. >> >> I would expect the -lowlatency and -generic kernels to be in the archives >> and therefore can be included on the ISO. >> >> Therefore, my suggestions would be to focus on the -lowlatency (which will >> need to be community maintained and in the repos) and the -rt kernel (which >> many users desire for performance but maintained in a PPA). >> >> Cheers, >> ScottL >> >> > That is fine with me. I should clarify: It doesn't matter to me if the > -rt or -realtime kernels are on the ISO or a PPA. As long as they are > available and of good quality, then I'm happy. > > -- > -Brian David > > -- > Ubuntu-Studio-users mailing list > Ubuntu-Studio-users@lists.ubuntu.com > Modify settings or unsubscribe at: > https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-studio-users > > Brian, I'm sorry, I wasn't necessarily directing that at you, it was intended more as a public announcement about kernel availability in general. My goal wasn't to dissuade anyone from working on the kernels and I'm glad that everyone wants to help. All the help is really appreciated :) Cheers, ScottL -- Ubuntu-Studio-users mailing list Ubuntu-Studio-users@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-studio-users
Re: Natty and RT Kernel (was "Maverick and RT")
On Wed, Sep 29, 2010 at 4:13 PM, Scott Lavender wrote: > > I don't mean to be a wet blanket, but I want people to have realistic > expectations as well. > > I would not expect the -preempt, -rt, or -realtime kernels to be maintained > in the official archives (repositories). These would need to be maintained > in a PPA, although it is probable that this could be maintained in an > official Ubuntu Studio PPA. It is my understanding that these kernels > cannot be included in the Ubuntu Studio ISO if they are not in the archives. > > I would expect the -lowlatency and -generic kernels to be in the archives > and therefore can be included on the ISO. > > Therefore, my suggestions would be to focus on the -lowlatency (which will > need to be community maintained and in the repos) and the -rt kernel (which > many users desire for performance but maintained in a PPA). > > Cheers, > ScottL > > That is fine with me. I should clarify: It doesn't matter to me if the -rt or -realtime kernels are on the ISO or a PPA. As long as they are available and of good quality, then I'm happy. -- -Brian David -- Ubuntu-Studio-users mailing list Ubuntu-Studio-users@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-studio-users
Re: Natty and RT Kernel (was "Maverick and RT")
On Wed, Sep 29, 2010 at 3:42 PM, Brian David wrote: > On Wed, Sep 29, 2010 at 3:16 PM, Alessio Igor Bogani > wrote: > >> Hi Brian, Hi Jeremy, >> >> Sorry for my very bad English. >> >> Which are kernels on you are interested in? The -rt, -lowlatency or >> -realtime? >> Which kernels you use on per day basis (so you can provide test and >> feedback)? >> Which Ubuntu releases do you would want see well supported for >> that/those kernels? Every releases or only LTS? >> >> Thanks! >> >> Ciao, >> Alessio >> > > I am mainly interested in -rt. That gives the best performance. I also > have successfully used -realtime, although that kernel gives me more > problems. > > I use -rt on a daily basis for audio work. > > I would be happy with a solid -rt kernel on just the LTS. Ideally it would > be nice to have one with every release, but I imagine that would take much > more work. > > -- > -Brian David > > -- > Ubuntu-Studio-users mailing list > Ubuntu-Studio-users@lists.ubuntu.com > Modify settings or unsubscribe at: > https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-studio-users > I don't mean to be a wet blanket, but I want people to have realistic expectations as well. I would not expect the -preempt, -rt, or -realtime kernels to be maintained in the official archives (repositories). These would need to be maintained in a PPA, although it is probable that this could be maintained in an official Ubuntu Studio PPA. It is my understanding that these kernels cannot be included in the Ubuntu Studio ISO if they are not in the archives. I would expect the -lowlatency and -generic kernels to be in the archives and therefore can be included on the ISO. Therefore, my suggestions would be to focus on the -lowlatency (which will need to be community maintained and in the repos) and the -rt kernel (which many users desire for performance but maintained in a PPA). Cheers, ScottL -- Ubuntu-Studio-users mailing list Ubuntu-Studio-users@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-studio-users
Re: Natty and RT Kernel (was "Maverick and RT")
On Wed, Sep 29, 2010 at 3:16 PM, Alessio Igor Bogani wrote: > Hi Brian, Hi Jeremy, > > Sorry for my very bad English. > > Which are kernels on you are interested in? The -rt, -lowlatency or > -realtime? > Which kernels you use on per day basis (so you can provide test and > feedback)? > Which Ubuntu releases do you would want see well supported for > that/those kernels? Every releases or only LTS? > > Thanks! > > Ciao, > Alessio > I am mainly interested in -rt. That gives the best performance. I also have successfully used -realtime, although that kernel gives me more problems. I use -rt on a daily basis for audio work. I would be happy with a solid -rt kernel on just the LTS. Ideally it would be nice to have one with every release, but I imagine that would take much more work. -- -Brian David -- Ubuntu-Studio-users mailing list Ubuntu-Studio-users@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-studio-users
Natty and RT Kernel (was "Maverick and RT")
Hi Brian, Hi Jeremy, Sorry for my very bad English. Which are kernels on you are interested in? The -rt, -lowlatency or -realtime? Which kernels you use on per day basis (so you can provide test and feedback)? Which Ubuntu releases do you would want see well supported for that/those kernels? Every releases or only LTS? Thanks! Ciao, Alessio -- Ubuntu-Studio-users mailing list Ubuntu-Studio-users@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-studio-users
