Reverting/Recovering from imcompatible license issue (Japanese Translation)
Hi, * This mail are drafted at ubuntu-jp lists (https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-jp/2017-March/005712.html ), thank you for lists members. * Our Action = We are in the process of resolving license incompatibility issue caused by one of our contributors https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-translators/2017-March/007350.html Based on the two mails from the contributor (not distributed to this list) and past discussions, we found that the contributor used translation services which violates the 3-Clause BSD license. So, Ubuntu Japanese Translators+Ubuntu Japanese Team decided to revert (to English) and retranslate (English -> Japanese) ALL suspicious *commits and suggestions* with clean room process. Since our resources are limited and the deadline for 17.04 translation is almost there, we decided the priority as follows; (We already began Phase 1) * Phase 1. Packages in Ubuntu main. * Phase 2. Related Ubuntu Flavours * Phase 3. Other Launchpad.net projects. * Phase 4. Others (if exists) Regards, original mail from contributor: [1] Date: Sat, 25 Feb 2017 19:24:21 +0900 In-Reply-To:
Re: Japanese team (reviewer) is not working
Fu-sen san, Firstly, Please read carefully this mail and past mails in this thread, these have many many insights for Fu-sen san's future contibution. Sorry for later, because I want to think this issue that are reach to your heart and your contribution styles vulnerabilities. I apologize for our lack of detailed guidance in past days, and I remorse that. And, this is not judgement, only suggestion, I can not add any constraint for your future, and contribution spirit. But some of your styles have serious risk, IMHO, you have to change. [TOC] - Can we use web-based translations on LP? - Regarding Hanlon's razor and your behavior - Can we avoid reverting the Fu-sen san's contribution? - Conclusion Can we use web-based translations on LP? == NOTE: This is my understood, not official, and no covenant for license matching. License problem are very sensitive and very difficult. These pattern are not MECE, but workable for this time. - Case: Translate with dictionary and your brain. - IMHO: OK. - Case: web-based Translation Service with explicitly declaration for compatible with FLOSS license. - IMHO: Probably(-Maybe) OK, but I dont have assurance for "translation" work. If original documents author are you, the risk are low. - Case: multiple web-based Translation Service with explicitly declaration for combatiple with FLOSS license. - IMHO: Probably(-Maybe) OK, but I dont have assurance for "translation" work. If original documents author are you, the risk are low. - Case: web-based Translation Service with no declaration for compatible with FLOSS license. - IMHO: Maybe OK when if you translate with their output as a one of references, probably safe, but when you need perfection, don't use them. - Case: web-based Translation Service with explicit declaration for *incompatible* with FLOSS license. - IMHO: Completely NG. - Case: No EULA (no contract): - IMHO: Completely NG, see below as a reference. This is deadly venom for our freedom. http://d.hatena.ne.jp/nishiohirokazu/20100819/1282200581 Regarding Hanlon's razor and your reputations === We know one golden rule(not only FLOSS context), "Hanlon's razor" and variants, like this.: " Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity. " " Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity, but don't rule out malice. " Sorry for shocking words, but we are same, we (You, Ikuya, me and any other peoples) are stupid, therefor, we have to make an efforts to more fabulous future under the contract and discipline. In discussion context, when you met adversing developments, you change your behavior to keep saying one is sorry (or just leave with words like: "Okay, I leave this community, this is only way for benecicial to everyone"). but you are returning, or, moving another places without turning a hair. Honestly, In first action, Fu-sen san told that "I use Google Translator, it looks good for me". At that time, I hope just say "Can we revert part of your contributions? because it seems risky." Small reverting. But, you dont respond(twicely) to me. I feel something bad. When Ikuya AWASHIRO were onboarding, you leaved this lists, without accoountabilities. Again, apologies my suspicious. After that, you were starting your know-how broadcastly on SNS, that can summarized to : "I use use multiple translation services, that need fitting to format, not simple copy and paste." And, probably, You updated your instruction site on elementaryOS's. https://elementaryjapan.jimdo.com/%E6%97%A5%E6%9C%AC%E8%AA%9E%E7%BF%BB%E8%A8%B3/ > (運営者は完全な未翻訳の場合、複数の Web 翻訳を元に規則に基づいて体制を整えて反映しています。 > これは翻訳文を少しでも確実にすると共に、単独の Web 翻訳から引用したと分からないようにします。 > 翻訳した文を逆に日本語に戻して確認するのも効果的です。) That said: "Web administorator use multiple web translation services, and fitting to format. This mainly providing more accuracy, and, that can be cover the translation coming from one-single web translation services as a side effect. " Firstly, I cant understand that word: "分からないように"(cover, disguise or camouflage?)? I had suspect that it meaning "If you chery-pick from multiple web services, its sound good". And I found your words in a few days, "I cant translate without Google Translater", "I dont use Web-based Translater", "I use multiple web services". I feel heavy pain with say, but must say, you dont understand what's wrong in past few days. Yet another thing occured, one of 2ch.net users notice to me, Fu-sen san have many notorious reputations. User of 2ch.net indicate that. (Thank you for anonymous person of sincerity.) http://echo.2ch.net/test/read.cgi/hosting/1414908422/ 2ch.net are notorious(bad nuance) anonymous board services. Yes, they are just anonymous, and, sometime they work with dysphemism and antagonism. Sometimes they become demagogue, but they have some kind of guilelessness.
Re: Japanese team (reviewer) is not working
Hi, Question from https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-translators/2017-February/007326.html > So, in this phase, I have a sense of crisis from this page and your > translation works. Sorry for this explicit question, but I must say > this, you don't have enough knowledge about FLOSS cultures and > licensing? And, please provide your truth in past works(see past > replies). And, please stop your work "with Translation Service" model with your favorites services (+ "by Translation Service", "by Translation Service and review by contributor" models also affected). Their services are not have contract requirements, so they have fatal risk. No EULA/no contract services are venom for our freedom. Sorry for less details, I'll provide more background in few days. Regards, -- ubuntu-translators mailing list ubuntu-translators@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-translators
Re: Japanese team (reviewer) is not working
Hi, >> 1) Would you please provide list of translation services? > > I want to check it in reverse. Is this OK for this?: > | 1. Translate with multiple web translations. The result is many > different sentences. I don't have solid answer, if you translate "with translation services", maybe OK, "by translation services", probably No. Regards, -- ubuntu-translators mailing list ubuntu-translators@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-translators
Re: Japanese team (reviewer) is not working
# I'm sorry, I mistaken From address. Sorry for bothering Fu-sen san, Joel san. Hi, Thank you for your response, Please provide more 2 information. I really sorry for bothering you. > 1. Translate with multiple web translations 1) Would you please provide list of translation services? 2) And,what's happen at this tweet? https://twitter.com/balloon_vendor/status/817929412356214784 > ああ、明らかに他もおかしいですね。version→で開くになってしまってますので。何か自動翻訳でおかしく入っている可能性がありそうです。確認して修正します。Ubuntu > Budgie が採用する予定なのでこの連絡はありがたいです。ありがとうございます。 Regards, -- ubuntu-translators mailing list ubuntu-translators@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-translators
Re: Japanese team (reviewer) is not working
Hi, > "Japanese team (reviewer) is not working". Okay, your concern is "Ubuntu Japanese Translators are defunct team, and Japanese Translation covers very limited", isn't it? If so, I have to say "Please use valid way". Sorry for repeating, but this is important. You hadn't contact with valid way, and we are got your reach out in this week. And your first contact time is Tue Feb 21 in this development season. IMHO, you have some imbroglio. Please read our document and use valid way, sorry for repeating. And... I feel very heavy painbut I have obligation to say again, you must answer and free from suspicion before contribution. Again, I apologies we can't achieve your expectation and your concern, but please built up the steps of contribution with us. I suggest your first step, please sign CoC. After that, check in your user page at LP, if you complete this step, "Signed Ubuntu Code of Conduct: Yes", and answering some questions in this thread. We (You and Ubuntu Japanese Translators) have limited time for your answering... - I try to answer to your concerns below. - "Ubuntu Japanese Translators karma are low, you are defunct" : Yes, sorry for our laziness, but Japanese Translators are moderator, not work as committer. If non-Translator's contribution with valid caller, our work become low (because we are in busy), our works are very limited. - "I can improve Japanese Translation": Yes, I agree on some premises. Use valid way, explain your translation approach. - "Japanese Translation coverage are too low.": Yes, sorry for our limited resources and limitation. - "Japanese Translator's resource are very limited, my contribution will fall on deaf ears...": No, these are not only our resources, read past mails in this list. - "Less quality better than no quantities": IMHO, No. This is Translations, bad translation break the interface, compromised contribution messed up our base. No, my understood of Open Source Policy/Spirit, Definitely No, we cant use contribution with pollution. - "Good coverage with less quality is better than enough quality with limited coverage": In this phase, my opinion is No. Coverage is very important metric, I agree. But we have not enough resource - "I submit my translations, please review". Yes, please input your items to our review queue after doing your first step. Again, thank you for your contribution spirit! I'm waiting for your answer and working with you. Regards, -- ubuntu-translators mailing list ubuntu-translators@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-translators
Re: Japanese team (reviewer) is not working
Hi, > Sorry, someone please arbitrate. That's why I appealed here. > Then, this will not solve anything. Sorry for later, and I feel your something uneasiness, but I can't share your problem yet Recap of my viewpoint: - Ubuntu Japanese Translator still live when you use valid approach. And, I believe that this is answer of your concern, you did not contact with valid procedure. - When you want to contribute Japanese Translation, you can do it. - If you want to become Ubuntu Japanese Translator, you have to build up your qualifiable results. Would you please share your concern? And, you want to became Ubuntu Translator (or adjust our bar), I must say "No" with strong pain, you are not achieved our minimum bar(Lang skill and experience for collaboration works) for healthy translations at this time. So, please build up yourself with us! Again^2, I send out a *last notice*, you have to show your relevance in your works in past days. If not provided in a few weeks(because Z-release are coming), we must revert your works, because your translation output doesnt't match to FLOSS context. And, some users mention to me about your suggestion in translation of ElementaryOS, that page have a message : "you can use machine translation", but, I think that have no inquest about license violation. https://elementaryjapan.jimdo.com/%E6%97%A5%E6%9C%AC%E8%AA%9E%E7%BF%BB%E8%A8%B3/ So, in this phase, I have a sense of crisis from this page and your translation works. Sorry for this explicit question, but I must say this, you don't have enough knowledge about FLOSS cultures and licensing? And, please provide your truth in past works(see past replies). Regards, -- ubuntu-translators mailing list ubuntu-translators@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-translators
Re: Japanese team (reviewer) is not working
> Please understand the true meaning I have appealed here! > I do not bother posting it here in English to want a reviewer!! Sorry, but I have to follow our discipline, bad quality and license violation are real disaster for us. Again, Please provide your truth about past days, this is very important for us. Your commits are not based web-translation, right? -- ubuntu-translators mailing list ubuntu-translators@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-translators
Re: Japanese team (reviewer) is not working
> This is the result that you tried to keep it: > https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-l10n-ja/+members > > 2014 has not been added at the end. Are you still going to keep it? > This seems to need to consider somewhat. I appealed to it for that. Shortly, Yes. This result is not expected, but as prepared. We still need our high bar for translators(=comitters), we can not accept bad translations for Japanese users, sorry for limited resource, but Japanese Translators(include me) are work as quality gate, no one achieve our bar, so we can't scale, as intended. But, you can contribute to Japanese Translations, because non-translator contributors still smaller than Translators resources. Please use our predefined way... And, this is constatation for correction, you had not submit with Web-based(license violated) translation yet in past days, is it right? Regards, -- ubuntu-translators mailing list ubuntu-translators@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-translators
Re: Japanese team (reviewer) is not working
Hi, > However, since the quality of Web translation is also improving, > it should not completely deny it. > It improves translation improvement now. Partially yes, but I have to say "No" in Ubuntu Translations. We can *not* use web based machine translation systems in FLOSS products, that cause serious license issue, not (only) quality problem. If you submit web-based machine translations at past-days, please revert these outputs. > However, it seems that it has refused participation of a new reviewer > due to the influence which is sticking to quality too much. I must say "No", sorry. Because messy translations break the chance of using user-side machine translations (with web-based translations) . Please take care of itself. Users can translate with machine translation in their hands. > Existing members will have a day to change one day. > For that, we must have a new user. > There is no user who can perfectly work perfectly... > It is the same for everything. Both translators and communities... > > I am seeing many translations back in English with recent Ubuntu flavors. > It is obviously a lack of reviewer. I hope to solve this problem at an > early date. No, this is not only reviewers resources problem, that caused by our(Japanese Team) policy: "If you find not good translation and you done have enough time for brush-up, don't accept that." Regards, -- ubuntu-translators mailing list ubuntu-translators@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-translators
Re: Japanese team (reviewer) is not working
Hi, I'm Fumihito YOSHIDA, one of admin of Japanese Translators. Firstly, thank you for your great contribution to Japanese translators, and I apologies for my slow reply and your concern. Probably this reply doesn't enough faster than your expectation, but not too late for corrections. And, I belive that "visibility solve any problem", so I answerd in this public list. ...Yes, we have limited skill for English communication, but we (you and me) can try for that. Sorry for bothering to other language guys! Your concern are caused by something our limited resource (include my lazy) and some imbroglio, I can't divite into strict result, so I try to expain how Japanese Translator works. And, I have one concern about your circs, you send mail to Japanese Translators admins at 2/21 20:25(JST), but, your first mail in this list(2/21 21:02 JST) are almost immediately, that have just 30 minutes. So, please share your urgency for that quick actions. I have half expect, you love *buntu and you are concerned with the lack of translations in next Z release. Okay, I try to explain about Ubuntu Japanese Translator system and contact points, that is part of my answer for your concern. Premise: Japanese Translation Team have some contact points and ping ways. But we hadn't recieved your contacts. Please use valid way for that, because we have limited resources in this time. Yes, Our IRC meeting habits have are died. Our meeting triggered by mail in ubuntu-jp lists, sorry for this and not clearly announcement. Therefor, this is not real blocker for your translation work. Please recheck the procedure in our wiki. https://wiki.ubuntulinux.jp/Translation - If you want to contribute japanese translations, you have no call to below heavy procedure, just do below simplified way. 0) Input your translation to Rosetta. 1) Update the waiting list for reviewing. They are coodicate by per-release rules. If that is not exist, please create new page for new releases. Yes, we are in sometimes busy, from 2015/Oct, that page doesn't work in now, but we are still in live. Please use this way. This is combat-proofed/well-trained way in Japanese translations. - If you want to get translator rights, please use this procedure (at Japanese wiki). see also: https://wiki.ubuntulinux.jp/enroll/translator_candidates 0) Fill your prereq activities 1) Update the meeting wiki. 2) Mail to ubuntu-jp lists for convocation. 3) Get translator rights, if you have enough credence. IMPORTANT NOTE: right of Ubuntu Japanese Translator are not mandatary for Japanese translations. But, I have to say in a straightforward way in this situation with strong pain, but I say with my sincerity. So, Your translation quantities are readlly good (and enough for reviewing), but that doesn't have enough quality in this moment. Please take the suggestions seriously from Ikuya Awashiro before few years ago. I have strong concern about your translation accuracy, so I advice you that "if you are far from convinced, please stay as English with braveheart." policy. This is very important part of Japanese Translators duty. - And, I feel desperate need of more explain about our process, please read below. Yet Another Premise: We have 2 explicit (+1 implicit) bars for new ubuntu japanese translator. - Bar 1) Get three endorsement +1 by existence translators. That +1 are provided by review for your past translations. - Bar 2) Enough quantities for screening out. Too small quantity doesn't match process 1). - Implicit Bar) You have to prove that you can became good cooperative guys, that include language skill, ubuntu experiences(as a user, sometimes administrator in some translations), patience and humilities for good collaborative activities. This is implicit rule, but we have CoC, I belived that make sense on fronts! Yes, this is heavy process and not low bar, but that have some historical background. In old days, we(Japanese Translators) use open commit policy. But, at given day, we met UI crisis by messy commits and license violated machine translation (e.g.: 「symbolic link -> 象徴的結合」 and using Excite翻訳) . In that days, we have to revert and revert and revert and review and review and review that many commits, these are really nightmare days (main worker: Ikuya Awashiro and me). After that terrible days, we(+ Japanese Team and Japanese Translators) have one insight, translation are not easy works (Especially, you may know, English -> Japanese Translation are!), and translator must have language skill and good spirit for collaborative activities. So, we decided to use moderated styles. Additionaly, we believe that English(non-translation) are bet
Re: Translatable Code of Conduct (CoC) and Leadership Code of Conduct (LCoC)
Hi David and all,
For brainstorming, I propose yet another tasks. So,
- Do we need Onomasticon ?
- Do we need English = English translation ?
I just wanted to let you know about the blueprint I've just drafted for
a UDS session to discuss an effort to make the Ubuntu Code of Conduct
(CoC) and Leadership Code of Conduct translatable [1].
From the summary:
We want to provide the Code of Conduct (CoC) and the Leadership Code of
Conduct (LCoC) in anyone's own language, and we want to enable the
community to translate it.
We (Japanese LoCo) had translate CoC already( http://bit.ly/9WJ80c ).
In translation works, we face some challenges about CoC/LCoC terms.
Do we need Onomasticon ? :
- CoC has some {philosophical implications, Ubuntu governance term}.
For example, Ubuntu governance bodies. We need long discussion about
this term, because we have to analyze , it include nuance? Or, is it
proper name?(like Community Council?)
In this case, we check Jono's blog[1] and other documents, but it is
heavy to dicisions. But if we had proper name lists, we can work easily.
Do we need English = English translation ? :
- For translation works, many paraphrase creates good translations.
(see also: Paraphrasing Social from the start[2])
Any ideas?
[1] http://www.jonobacon.org/2009/08/09/
[2] https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-translators/2010-April/003502.html
Regards,
--
ubuntu-translators mailing list
ubuntu-translators@lists.ubuntu.com
https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-translators
Re: Paraphrasing Social from the Start for translators
Hi helpful friends, Thank you for your helping. I decide Japanese translations: ここから、みんなが繋がります (In this place, we can connect to each other) In Japanese, this place mean this place and start point. This translation has not same face of Social from the Start, but I believe that these two phrase have same philosophy. For clarification, I expose my conception process about this issue(sorry for my Eng*r*ish ;)). Social is : - not only social network (and related softwares). (but included social network services, such as facebook, digg, twitter and more, with gwibber and any other implementations) - not only community(but included). - not only linking. - not only public. Regards, -- ubuntu-translators mailing list ubuntu-translators@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-translators
