Re: Problems and suggestions in Launchpad translations (rosseta)
--- Στις Τρίτ., 03/03/09, ο/η Kenneth Nielsen k.nielse...@gmail.com έγραψε: Από: Kenneth Nielsen k.nielse...@gmail.com Θέμα: Re: Problems and suggestions in Launchpad translations (rosseta) Προς: kain...@yahoo.gr Κοιν.: ubuntu-translators@lists.ubuntu.com Ημερομηνία: Τρίτη, 3 Μάρτιος 2009, 0:50 Problem 2: A Gnome, KDE or OpenOffice translator doesn't likes launchpad translations. But why is that? Because launchpad does not include the development branch of his project, instead it includes only Ubuntu's version (Many guys want to translate via Launchpad but they can not). That is because Gnome project, for instance, does not use launchpad for translations (we all know that) but an average translator would like better to work on his project via launchpad translations. The main reason is because launchpad is easier. That LP doesn't have the development version of upstream packages are not the main reasons that I (an upstream GNOME translator) don't like working in LP. I wouldn't mind integrating a branched (and sligthly older) version of a program in both the branch and development version upstream afterwards. My main objection to working in LP is A; that it does not (yet anyway) provide a useable proofreading and feedback system and B; your problem 1. Regards Kenneth Nielsen The hole idea is that launchpad should contribute upstream. Its a excellent tool and it's a shame not to use it. When it's open sourced all will be different. ___ Χρησιμοποιείτε Yahoo!; Βαρεθήκατε τα ενοχλητικά μηνύματα (spam); Το Yahoo! Mail διαθέτει την καλύτερη δυνατή προστασία κατά των ενοχλητικών μηνυμάτων http://login.yahoo.com/config/mail?.intl=gr -- ubuntu-translators mailing list ubuntu-translators@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-translators
Re: Problems and suggestions in Launchpad translations (rosseta)
Problem 2: A Gnome, KDE or OpenOffice translator doesn't likes launchpad translations. But why is that? Because launchpad does not include the development branch of his project, instead it includes only Ubuntu's version (Many guys want to translate via Launchpad but they can not). That is because Gnome project, for instance, does not use launchpad for translations (we all know that) but an average translator would like better to work on his project via launchpad translations. The main reason is because launchpad is easier. That LP doesn't have the development version of upstream packages are not the main reasons that I (an upstream GNOME translator) don't like working in LP. I wouldn't mind integrating a branched (and sligthly older) version of a program in both the branch and development version upstream afterwards. My main objection to working in LP is A; that it does not (yet anyway) provide a useable proofreading and feedback system and B; your problem 1. Regards Kenneth Nielsen -- ubuntu-translators mailing list ubuntu-translators@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-translators
Re: Problems and suggestions in Launchpad translations (rosseta)
În data de Mi, 25-02-2009 la 09:52 +, Kainourgiakis Giorgos a scris: Hello all, I wrote these notes because of this: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UDSJaunty/Report/Community. In UDS 2009 the following topics, Make Rosetta attractive for upstreams and Launchpad Translations left blank. I have no idea if the suggestions are techinaly viable, but here they are. I didn't knew about that wiki page. It looks like the report is here: https://dev.launchpad.net/Translations/Reports/UDSJaunty I agree with you :) Rosetta is a love + hate mess :D From my point of view the problem is due to a lack of comunnication between translators, new translators, translators teams and projects. Also these problems applies for new or medium translators , which are doing translations on the development branch of Ubuntu. The Ubuntu stable or long term support version are safe, as the upstream projects are no longer willing to commit those changes. Now we have the big note about the translation guide. We can use it as the first step in establishing a good communication with people using Launchpad for translations. Launchpad Translations Problems --- Launchpad translations (rosetta) is a great collaborative tool for translating just about anything. That is correct but... it also is a great mess! And why is that? The main reasons appear below: Problem 1: If you are in country that a Gnome, a KDE, a OpenOffice or a Debian translation team exists you are out of business. You can only translate ubuntu documentation, debian patches, some packages and the projects that use launchpad for translations. The result is that a new translator has no idea which packages to translate. If he translates a random package his work will probably will be lost, because the package is being translated upstream and imported to launchpad from an upstream translation team. Solution 1: All packages must be tagged as Gnome, KDE, Debian, OpenOffice, independent or Ubuntu patch packages, in order the translator to know where a package is being officially translated. Here is my attempt to tag each template. I will talk about this in a new email: http://l10n.ubuntu.tla.ro/jaunty-l10n-status/el.html It is hard to tag templates and know which language has a strong upstream translation page. Also I'm looking at the upstream translations pages and I find the confusing for a new translators. The GNOME page is somehow more user friendly... all other are very vague. Just tagging them is not a solution we need to talk with upstreams teams and create a good comunication channel. I don't have a general answer, but for example for GNOME, all GNOME packages could be taged and be availalbe for translation in Ubuntu, only after the GNOME release, with a BIG note telling translators why they can not translate GNOME in LP right now and a guide to help them join the uptream project. Problem 2: A Gnome, KDE or OpenOffice translator doesn't likes launchpad translations. But why is that? Because launchpad does not include the development branch of his project, instead it includes only Ubuntu's version (Many guys want to translate via Launchpad but they can not). That is because Gnome project, for instance, does not use launchpad for translations (we all know that) but an average translator would like better to work on his project via launchpad translations. The main reason is because launchpad is easier. Solution 2: The average translator must have a choice. The development branch of project can be imported and hosted by launchpad and it can produce a .po file that is valid to the project. The procedure of translating, lets say gnome project, it will be the same. The translator must e-mail his mailing list to inform the team that he is translating a package and then, when he is done he must send it back for review. The procedure of translation can be done in launchpad. Well in Launchpad you can translate upstream projects , and each upstream project can choose if it want to use launchpad for translation. Right now each project is free to import it's trunck branch into Launchpad. GNOME is free to import the trunk branch in LP, but this action depends on the upstream will :) Talk to the GNOME Greek translators and see if they are willing to import trunk in LP. Problem 3: The Ubuntu final localization is being produced from many translation teams with different translators, different styles, different translations for the same terms, so it has a reduced quality. An excellent example is the Greek main menu (Application, Places, System) where in some cases we have translations like Applications Internet (description) then (name of the program) and the next application is Applications Internet (name of the program) then (description). Also a translation administrator many times has no idea what Scrape or Toggle is, or there is no
Re: Problems and suggestions in Launchpad translations (rosseta)
Hi Adi, У чет, 26. 02 2009. у 19:53 +0200, Adi Roiban пише: I don't have a general answer, but for example for GNOME, all GNOME packages could be taged and be availalbe for translation in Ubuntu, only after the GNOME release, with a BIG note telling translators why they can not translate GNOME in LP right now and a guide to help them join the uptream project. That's not the answer. It entirely depends on the translation team. If GNOME upstream team wants to use Launchpad as a *tool* to the translation and then download PO files and submit them upstream, why should we stop them? The solution is to enable per-language team choice which would be per package, but you can imagine how that's not trivial to do :) Well in Launchpad you can translate upstream projects , and each upstream project can choose if it want to use launchpad for translation. Right now each project is free to import it's trunck branch into Launchpad. GNOME is free to import the trunk branch in LP, but this action depends on the upstream will :) Not really, if we communicate everything well, we can have parallel team structure in Launchpad for those that are interested in using LP as a translation tool: I still believe it's the best tool to do translation maintenance, and as soon as we get bazaar support in, I'd like us to start including upstream trunk translations. However, in those cases we'd strictly enforce that such projects use proper translation group (like gnome-translators) and we'd only allow actual upstream translation coordinators to run team in it. Talk to the GNOME Greek translators and see if they are willing to import trunk in LP. But this should not stop GNOME Romanian (hypothetically) translators from using Launchpad as a tool and getting their PO files in an easy way and submitting them themselves (or, once we get APIs, writing tools to submit them directly to upstream source code repositories or translation frameworks like the one GNOME has now). We just didn't set any of this up yet because we don't want to manually sync translations for all possible upstreams. There are discussions about creating such a glossary in Launchpad, but I think that for now the main goal on LP is to prepare the project to be free software. There are other priorities, but the simple approach for Glossary I wanted won't really work. Which means we'd have to develop a full glossary, which means a lot more work. For Ubuntu it's easy... just look at the needs review column. In addition I have created this webpages: http://l10n.ubuntu.tla.ro/ubuntu-translators-review/el.html http://l10n.ubuntu.tla.ro/jaunty-l10n-status/el.html I know they are not officials , but it's a starting point. These pages are excellent: we are having a UI sprint next week, and I'll make sure we plan how to solve this problem by integrating necessary features inside Launchpad. Thanks for taking the time to do them, I believe they are really helpful for everybody until we get Launchpad to play nicer about this stuff :) Cheers, Danilo -- ubuntu-translators mailing list ubuntu-translators@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-translators
Re: Problems and suggestions in Launchpad translations (rosseta)
Hi Kainourgiakis Giorgos, Thank you for sharing your notes. У сре, 25. 02 2009. у 09:52 +, Kainourgiakis Giorgos пише: Hello all, I wrote these notes because of this: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UDSJaunty/Report/Community. In UDS 2009 the following topics, Make Rosetta attractive for upstreams and Launchpad Translations left blank. I have no idea if the suggestions are techinaly viable, but here they are. I've seen this email, updated that wiki page with my report from UDS, but forgot to reply here with the link[1]: thanks to Adi who corrected me. We are basically aware of majority of the problems you cite, and we've been working on different solutions over time. Unfortunately, there's a lot of work, but I think we have hugely improved during the last few years in all the areas you mention. And we'll continue improving until Launchpad Translations is the best translations tool you can get. But, we are not there yet! :) Cheers, Danilo [1] https://dev.launchpad.net/Translations/Reports/UDSJaunty -- ubuntu-translators mailing list ubuntu-translators@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-translators
Problems and suggestions in Launchpad translations (rosseta)
Hello all, I wrote these notes because of this: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UDSJaunty/Report/Community. In UDS 2009 the following topics, Make Rosetta attractive for upstreams and Launchpad Translations left blank. I have no idea if the suggestions are techinaly viable, but here they are. Launchpad Translations Problems --- Launchpad translations (rosetta) is a great collaborative tool for translating just about anything. That is correct but... it also is a great mess! And why is that? The main reasons appear below: Problem 1: If you are in country that a Gnome, a KDE, a OpenOffice or a Debian translation team exists you are out of business. You can only translate ubuntu documentation, debian patches, some packages and the projects that use launchpad for translations. The result is that a new translator has no idea which packages to translate. If he translates a random package his work will probably will be lost, because the package is being translated upstream and imported to launchpad from an upstream translation team. Solution 1: All packages must be tagged as Gnome, KDE, Debian, OpenOffice, independent or Ubuntu patch packages, in order the translator to know where a package is being officially translated. Problem 2: A Gnome, KDE or OpenOffice translator doesn't likes launchpad translations. But why is that? Because launchpad does not include the development branch of his project, instead it includes only Ubuntu's version (Many guys want to translate via Launchpad but they can not). That is because Gnome project, for instance, does not use launchpad for translations (we all know that) but an average translator would like better to work on his project via launchpad translations. The main reason is because launchpad is easier. Solution 2: The average translator must have a choice. The development branch of project can be imported and hosted by launchpad and it can produce a .po file that is valid to the project. The procedure of translating, lets say gnome project, it will be the same. The translator must e-mail his mailing list to inform the team that he is translating a package and then, when he is done he must send it back for review. The procedure of translation can be done in launchpad. Problem 3: The Ubuntu final localization is being produced from many translation teams with different translators, different styles, different translations for the same terms, so it has a reduced quality. An excellent example is the Greek main menu (Application, Places, System) where in some cases we have translations like Applications Internet (description) then (name of the program) and the next application is Applications Internet (name of the program) then (description). Also a translation administrator many times has no idea what Scrape or Toggle is, or there is no translation in his language, so he has to decide the term himself. Solution 3: Creation of a computer term dictionary divided in sections like CD-burning, Torrents, Web Browsing etc which will include numerous terms for each section. This dictionary should be community driven and also should have a voting system that a launchpad user can propose a translation for the term and also can vote the best translation for the term. This system should be a great Canonical and Ubuntu community contribution to the open source community and i think it's technically viable via launchpad. It also be useful to create an ubuntu Applications, Places, System translation package for all the menu titles that been used in basic ubuntu so the titles be unified. An example is Totem. Gnome project refer to this player as Movie player in the Applications menu and not as Totem Movie player, like the pattern used in Rhythmbox which is refered as Rhythmbox Music player. Also totem is actually a multimedia player not a movie player. The average non technical user finds odd to play mp3s with a movie player! These things can be corrected with this package. Problem 4: If anyone wants to upload a simple .po file in launchpad for translation (for personal use) he can not. Solution 4: Creation of an online translation tool like kbabel or poedit that uses the launchpad translations memory so anyone can translate or suggest a string of the file. The administrator must be the guy who uploaded the file. Problem 5: An administrator (a reviewer) has absolutely no idea where he can find new suggestions for translations to review. Solution 5: Provide a list of packages with new suggestions in all translations packages to translation administrators in his profile. Can you note the technical mistakes of these suggestions??? Thanx in advance Giorgos Kainourgiakis ___ Χρησιμοποιείτε Yahoo!; Βαρεθήκατε τα ενοχλητικά μηνύματα (spam); Το Yahoo! Mail διαθέτει την καλύτερη δυνατή προστασία κατά
