Re: Suggestion: Faster lanugage pack update after final release
2010/9/23 Kenneth Nielsen k.nielse...@gmail.com: Hallo everyone I would also really like to have regular, fast and frequent language pack releases, so I think we should try and get this thread going again. I have made a draft[1] for a template, from which we can create language pack release schedules for the individual releases. I have already discussed this with David to work in some of his ideas for the schedule and now I would very much like your feedback. The schedule is designed in such a way, that there will be 5 language pack updates for an ordinary release and 8 for a LTS. The first one will be made already after 2 weeks, to allow us to get rid of those very few but very ugly mistakes that sometimes pop up. The amount of releases may sound like a lot, but keep in mind that you are not _required_ to release a language pack on all these occasions. These will work merely as the times where you have the _opportunity_ to release one. The idea is that if you want to release a language pack, you should test it in the way described in the quality assurance page[2] and put your language name on the list (we will then reset the page after each language pack release), and if you don't want to release a language pack update you simply do nothing ;) Let me know what you think. Regards Kenneth Nielsen [1] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Translations/LanguagePackUpdatesQA/LanguagePackUpdateScheduleTemplate [2] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Translations/LanguagePackUpdatesQA Since I haven't had any negative feedback on this, I am going to get started drawing up a schedule for Ubuntu 10.10 and then I will see if I can get all the right people on board for this to happen for that version of Ubuntu (it is not certain that it can be achieved in time, but I am going to give it a try). More to come soon. Regards Kenneth Nielsen -- ubuntu-translators mailing list ubuntu-translators@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-translators
Re: Suggestion: Faster lanugage pack update after final release
Great idea ! I also believe fixed, predicatble schedules are the best way to better quality. Regards Andrej Great things are not done by impulse, but by a series of small things brought together. 2010/9/24 ubuntu-translators-requ...@lists.ubuntu.com Send ubuntu-translators mailing list submissions to ubuntu-translators@lists.ubuntu.com To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-translators or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to ubuntu-translators-requ...@lists.ubuntu.com You can reach the person managing the list at ubuntu-translators-ow...@lists.ubuntu.com When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than Re: Contents of ubuntu-translators digest... Today's Topics: 1. Re: Suggestion: Faster lanugage pack update after final release (Kenneth Nielsen) 2. Re: Suggestion: Faster lanugage pack update after final release (Kenneth Nielsen) 3. Re: Suggestion: Faster lanugage pack update after final release (Ask Hjorth Larsen) -- Message: 1 Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2010 23:24:01 +0200 From: Kenneth Nielsen k.nielse...@gmail.com Subject: Re: Suggestion: Faster lanugage pack update after final release To: Ubuntu Translators ubuntu-translators@lists.ubuntu.com Message-ID: aanlktikquokx_-g67xgwnkf=lh8kctthohta_nbzt...@mail.gmail.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Hallo everyone I would also really like to have regular, fast and frequent language pack releases, so I think we should try and get this thread going again. I have made a draft[1] for a template, from which we can create language pack release schedules for the individual releases. I have already discussed this with David to work in some of his ideas for the schedule and now I would very much like your feedback. The schedule is designed in such a way, that there will be 5 language pack updates for an ordinary release and 8 for a LTS. The first one will be made already after 2 weeks, to allow us to get rid of those very few but very ugly mistakes that sometimes pop up. The amount of releases may sound like a lot, but keep in mind that you are not _required_ to release a language pack on all these occasions. These will work merely as the times where you have the _opportunity_ to release one. The idea is that if you want to release a language pack, you should test it in the way described in the quality assurance page[2] and put your language name on the list (we will then reset the page after each language pack release), and if you don't want to release a language pack update you simply do nothing ;) Let me know what you think. Regards Kenneth Nielsen [1] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Translations/LanguagePackUpdatesQA/LanguagePackUpdateScheduleTemplate [2] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Translations/LanguagePackUpdatesQA -- Message: 2 Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2010 23:27:49 +0200 From: Kenneth Nielsen k.nielse...@gmail.com Subject: Re: Suggestion: Faster lanugage pack update after final release To: Ubuntu Translators ubuntu-translators@lists.ubuntu.com Message-ID: aanlkti=cb6f7pi6cm6l6tkr=o2xahsoorbye-bn1x...@mail.gmail.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 BTW. I should say, that in case we can come to an agreement on the schedule, I am volunteering to create the specific release schedules on the wiki along with google calendar links and ical files und alles ;) \Kenneth 2010/9/23 Kenneth Nielsen k.nielse...@gmail.com: Hallo everyone I would also really like to have regular, fast and frequent language pack releases, so I think we should try and get this thread going again. I have made a draft[1] for a template, from which we can create language pack release schedules for the individual releases. I have already discussed this with David to work in some of his ideas for the schedule and now I would very much like your feedback. The schedule is designed in such a way, that there will be 5 language pack updates for an ordinary release and 8 for a LTS. The first one will be made already after 2 weeks, to allow us to get rid of those very few but very ugly mistakes that sometimes pop up. The amount of releases may sound like a lot, but keep in mind that you are not _required_ to release a language pack on all these occasions. These will work merely as the times where you have the _opportunity_ to release one. The idea is that if you want to release a language pack, you should test it in the way described in the quality assurance page[2] and put your language name on the list (we will then reset the page after each language pack release), and if you don't want to release a language pack update you simply do nothing ;) Let me know what you think. Regards
Re: Suggestion: Faster lanugage pack update after final release
Hallo everyone I would also really like to have regular, fast and frequent language pack releases, so I think we should try and get this thread going again. I have made a draft[1] for a template, from which we can create language pack release schedules for the individual releases. I have already discussed this with David to work in some of his ideas for the schedule and now I would very much like your feedback. The schedule is designed in such a way, that there will be 5 language pack updates for an ordinary release and 8 for a LTS. The first one will be made already after 2 weeks, to allow us to get rid of those very few but very ugly mistakes that sometimes pop up. The amount of releases may sound like a lot, but keep in mind that you are not _required_ to release a language pack on all these occasions. These will work merely as the times where you have the _opportunity_ to release one. The idea is that if you want to release a language pack, you should test it in the way described in the quality assurance page[2] and put your language name on the list (we will then reset the page after each language pack release), and if you don't want to release a language pack update you simply do nothing ;) Let me know what you think. Regards Kenneth Nielsen [1] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Translations/LanguagePackUpdatesQA/LanguagePackUpdateScheduleTemplate [2] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Translations/LanguagePackUpdatesQA -- ubuntu-translators mailing list ubuntu-translators@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-translators
Re: Suggestion: Faster lanugage pack update after final release
BTW. I should say, that in case we can come to an agreement on the schedule, I am volunteering to create the specific release schedules on the wiki along with google calendar links and ical files und alles ;) \Kenneth 2010/9/23 Kenneth Nielsen k.nielse...@gmail.com: Hallo everyone I would also really like to have regular, fast and frequent language pack releases, so I think we should try and get this thread going again. I have made a draft[1] for a template, from which we can create language pack release schedules for the individual releases. I have already discussed this with David to work in some of his ideas for the schedule and now I would very much like your feedback. The schedule is designed in such a way, that there will be 5 language pack updates for an ordinary release and 8 for a LTS. The first one will be made already after 2 weeks, to allow us to get rid of those very few but very ugly mistakes that sometimes pop up. The amount of releases may sound like a lot, but keep in mind that you are not _required_ to release a language pack on all these occasions. These will work merely as the times where you have the _opportunity_ to release one. The idea is that if you want to release a language pack, you should test it in the way described in the quality assurance page[2] and put your language name on the list (we will then reset the page after each language pack release), and if you don't want to release a language pack update you simply do nothing ;) Let me know what you think. Regards Kenneth Nielsen [1] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Translations/LanguagePackUpdatesQA/LanguagePackUpdateScheduleTemplate [2] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Translations/LanguagePackUpdatesQA -- ubuntu-translators mailing list ubuntu-translators@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-translators
Re: Suggestion: Faster lanugage pack update after final release
Hi translators On Thu, Sep 23, 2010 at 11:24 PM, Kenneth Nielsen k.nielse...@gmail.com wrote: Hallo everyone I would also really like to have regular, fast and frequent language pack releases, so I think we should try and get this thread going again. I have made a draft[1] for a template, from which we can create language pack release schedules for the individual releases. I have already discussed this with David to work in some of his ideas for the schedule and now I would very much like your feedback. The schedule is designed in such a way, that there will be 5 language pack updates for an ordinary release and 8 for a LTS. The first one will be made already after 2 weeks, to allow us to get rid of those very few but very ugly mistakes that sometimes pop up. The amount of releases may sound like a lot, but keep in mind that you are not _required_ to release a language pack on all these occasions. These will work merely as the times where you have the _opportunity_ to release one. The idea is that if you want to release a language pack, you should test it in the way described in the quality assurance page[2] and put your language name on the list (we will then reset the page after each language pack release), and if you don't want to release a language pack update you simply do nothing ;) Let me know what you think. Regards Kenneth Nielsen [1] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Translations/LanguagePackUpdatesQA/LanguagePackUpdateScheduleTemplate [2] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Translations/LanguagePackUpdatesQA I think it's great. While the exact dates are not important, the existence of a fixed schedule makes everything simple to figure out, and the quick update in the beginning is particularly welcome. Thank you for creating the wiki page and getting things going. Best regards Ask -- ubuntu-translators mailing list ubuntu-translators@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-translators
Re: Suggestion: Faster lanugage pack update after final release
El dj 19 de 08 de 2010 a les 21:13 +0200, en/na Ask Hjorth Larsen va escriure: Hi David and Andrej [...] Hey :), and sorry for the delay in replying We had the same issue as Andrej - after the release, multiple errors were spotted in a short amount of time, a few of which were really annoying. A language pack upgrade after 2-3 weeks would be ideal, Yeah, we can do that, it's just a matter of having a calendar in place and take care of scheduling it. and I also think that 'automatic' (from our point of view :)) upgrades every so often (1-2 months) would be a good thing if possible. Ideally, I would also like to see automatic uploads of language packs, just in the same way we do already during the development cycle. But from a QA point of view, until there is an automated way of also testing those translations, that is not likely to happen. Is there any particular reason not to provide lots of updates to language packs? (Can things easily go wrong?) Things can go wrong. Mistakes in translations can cause application crashes, which are pretty severe issues from a user standpoint. The majority of typos are caught upon input at the Launchpad level, where error checking is performed internally using the standard gettext tools, but there are sometimes subtle mistakes (often associated with substitution variables in translatable strings) which for one reason or the other cannot be caught, which can easily lead to a crash. Ubuntu has grown to a huge user base, and they understandably expect smooth updates with no regressions. That's why we have a strict stable releases policy, where you can read the background in more detail: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/StableReleaseUpdates The point that translation mistakes do not happen that often is in my opinion a slightly flawed reason to automatically push updates, as there is a founded risk for potential bugs. I know that testers cannot do a 100% test coverage, but I believe it is a good compromise to let them provide a sign off acknowledging that they've done some minimal testing. The simple procedure outlined on the language pack updates QA makes sure that if a language pack has been tested, users can be sure that they can at least boot and have the system in a state where they can at least send e-mail and report bugs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Translations/LanguagePackUpdatesQA That gives us: * Some minimum testing * A point of contact to talk to if things go wrong Now, we've talked about this in several UDS editions, and I can see that the procedure needs improvement, but so far no one has had the time to work on this. Given the current infrastructure and testing methods, I can see two actions that might need work: * Creation of a language pack release schedule, taking into account frequency of updates for stable, development and LTS releases * Drafting of a procedure in which translation teams can request occasional updates outside the regular update window Would anyone want to help on this? Any feedback would be great. I hope this clarifies things, looking forward to more feedback! Regards, David. -- David Planella Ubuntu Translations Coordinator www.ubuntu.com / www.davidplanella.wordpress.com www.identi.ca/dplanella / www.twitter.com/dplanella signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part -- ubuntu-translators mailing list ubuntu-translators@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-translators
Re: Suggestion: Faster lanugage pack update after final release
Hi all, how many releases, in terms of stable and LTS sould we be doing updates? Right now stable updates (in the PPA) are running for Karmic and Lucid, which are basically the stable + old stable releases. Do you think this is enough? I think is enough. Stable and old stable release are the most used versions of Ubuntu and not for all translators groups is easy to maintain more than 2 versions. * How often do we want to update each release (current stable, old, LTSs)? Normal release: 2 weeks, 2 motnhs, 8 months after stable release LTS release: 2 weeks after release and after that in time for every point release Sounds good to me, although perhaps for LTS we would want to have more updates during the first 6 months? I agree with David, the first 6 months of every release are critical for finding bugs into translations. So I think every 2 months between the 2nd and 8th month should be a translations update Any other translators have got other suggestions? * How many teams would be testing the updates? Slovenian team continiously tests the updates. A couple of translators uses - https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-langpack/+archive/ppa/ and hence always uses the newset translations, so they test the strings in programs they commonly use. Testing of other programs depends on team members' available time / motivation, which can vary. That's good to know, we should probably better announce the existence of the PPA, as it seems not many people are aware of it. We must do it. This PPA should be used by all the people working at translations. But, indeed, this PPA should have the testing release (currently Maverick) too. A lot of people working at translations install the testing release cause is the best way to find bugs before the beta/alfa/final release comes, and we need to update translation packages faster than normal users. * Where could we host a public calendar for the updates? Yes, I believe we could create a language pack release schedule along the lines of the main Ubuntu Release schedule, but it would also be useful to provide an iCal feed for people wanted to subscribe. I just need the time to find out more about calendar feeds :) Please, this is something I always I'm looking for! Today I sent an email to the galician team with a proposed procedure for handle bugs faster using our mail list and some scripts I wrote some time ago. Here you can read the message (I can't find a way to paste the url into Google translate so please translate it copying the text in Google translate Galician-English): https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-l10n-gl/2010-August/001682.html Thanks for the good work. Regards -- ubuntu-translators mailing list ubuntu-translators@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-translators
Re: Suggestion: Faster lanugage pack update after final release
Hi Andrej, El dj 19 de 08 de 2010 a les 09:27 +0200, en/na Andrej Žnidaršič va escriure: Hello ! In slovenian team we get about 80% of 3rd party bug reports (from people who are not member of any translation team) in the period of 2 weeks, between the release of RC and 1 week after final release. This is the time when most users upgrade and hence also report bugs. A bit more conservative users wait a week or two before upgrade. In 10.04 we got a lot bug reports (there were a lot of mistakes in one of the packages, due to one translator's unseriousness), and we quickly fixed them, but language packs weren't generated for 3 months - until the release of 10.4.1 so: a) The people who reported bugs were frustrated, as nothing has changed (they couldn't see any changes) b) People who installed ubuntu later were still exposed to these mistakes. Hence i propose that there is a language pack update 1-2 weeks after the final release. Is that possible? This is a good point, and I think it would be possible. In this regard, we've been talking about a schedule for translation updates several times at UDSs, but so far no initiative has taken traction, mostly for lack of time and other priorities getting in the way. This is something we definitely need to sort out, and I'd finally like to make it a policy, so I'd very much welcome any feedback on this thread. Things to consider for a schedule: * How many releases' translations we want to update? * How often do we want to update each release (current stable, old, LTSs)? * How many teams would be testing the updates? * Where could we host a public calendar for the updates? We could also discuss this on a meeting. We haven't been running any on this cycle yet, so I'm thinking of scheduling one for next week or the one after. I'd be happy to hear everoyne's proposals. Thanks! Regards, David. -- David Planella Ubuntu Translations Coordinator www.ubuntu.com / www.davidplanella.wordpress.com www.identi.ca/dplanella / www.twitter.com/dplanella signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part -- ubuntu-translators mailing list ubuntu-translators@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-translators
Re: Suggestion: Faster lanugage pack update after final release
Hi David and Andrej On Thu, Aug 19, 2010 at 7:30 PM, David Planella david.plane...@ubuntu.com wrote: Hi Andrej, El dj 19 de 08 de 2010 a les 09:27 +0200, en/na Andrej Žnidaršič va escriure: Hello ! In slovenian team we get about 80% of 3rd party bug reports (from people who are not member of any translation team) in the period of 2 weeks, between the release of RC and 1 week after final release. This is the time when most users upgrade and hence also report bugs. A bit more conservative users wait a week or two before upgrade. In 10.04 we got a lot bug reports (there were a lot of mistakes in one of the packages, due to one translator's unseriousness), and we quickly fixed them, but language packs weren't generated for 3 months - until the release of 10.4.1 so: a) The people who reported bugs were frustrated, as nothing has changed (they couldn't see any changes) b) People who installed ubuntu later were still exposed to these mistakes. Hence i propose that there is a language pack update 1-2 weeks after the final release. Is that possible? This is a good point, and I think it would be possible. In this regard, we've been talking about a schedule for translation updates several times at UDSs, but so far no initiative has taken traction, mostly for lack of time and other priorities getting in the way. This is something we definitely need to sort out, and I'd finally like to make it a policy, so I'd very much welcome any feedback on this thread. Things to consider for a schedule: * How many releases' translations we want to update? * How often do we want to update each release (current stable, old, LTSs)? * How many teams would be testing the updates? * Where could we host a public calendar for the updates? We could also discuss this on a meeting. We haven't been running any on this cycle yet, so I'm thinking of scheduling one for next week or the one after. I'd be happy to hear everoyne's proposals. Thanks! Regards, David. We had the same issue as Andrej - after the release, multiple errors were spotted in a short amount of time, a few of which were really annoying. A language pack upgrade after 2-3 weeks would be ideal, and I also think that 'automatic' (from our point of view :)) upgrades every so often (1-2 months) would be a good thing if possible. Is there any particular reason not to provide lots of updates to language packs? (Can things easily go wrong?) Regards Ask -- ubuntu-translators mailing list ubuntu-translators@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-translators
