Re: [ubuntu-uk] uname -a for 32 bit os on 64 bit cpu
2011/11/14 Juan J. reid...@usebox.net: On Mon, 2011-11-14 at 22:22 +, Colin Law wrote: [...] TL;DR: it doesn't matter what is your hardware, the important it's which kernel are your running. It does matter what the hardware is if you want to know whether you *could* run the 64 bit kernel. ... and you're running a 32 bit kernel. OK, fair enough. I wouldn't use uname. lm in the CPU flags in /proc/cpuinfo it's the best bet. That is not the point really. The point is that the man page for uname is misleading. The heading says uname - print system information which is ambiguous, it does not indicate whether it is talking about hardware or installed software, and for -i for example it says -i, --hardware-platform print the hardware platform or unknown which suggests that it is talking about the hardware platform the software is running on. Colin -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] uname -a for 32 bit os on 64 bit cpu
On Tue, 2011-11-15 at 08:04 +, Colin Law wrote: [...] which suggests that it is talking about the hardware platform the software is running on. Have you tried texinfo manual as recommended in the man page? info coreutils 'uname invocation' It's way more complete. I looks like the problem may be in the information that it's being provided by the kernel it's not accurate, or at least it's not what uname is expecting :) Regards, Juan -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] uname -a for 32 bit os on 64 bit cpu
2011/11/15 Juan J. reid...@usebox.net: On Tue, 2011-11-15 at 08:04 +, Colin Law wrote: [...] which suggests that it is talking about the hardware platform the software is running on. Have you tried texinfo manual as recommended in the man page? info coreutils 'uname invocation' It's way more complete. I looks like the problem may be in the information that it's being provided by the kernel it's not accurate, or at least it's not what uname is expecting :) So you think the problem is not in the man page for uname, but uname -i -m -p *should* display information about the hardware rather than the installed OS? I have had a quick look for any relevant bug reports but cannot find any. Colin -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] uname -a for 32 bit os on 64 bit cpu
On Tue, 2011-11-15 at 08:57 +, Colin Law wrote: 2011/11/15 Juan J. reid...@usebox.net: On Tue, 2011-11-15 at 08:04 +, Colin Law wrote: [...] which suggests that it is talking about the hardware platform the software is running on. Have you tried texinfo manual as recommended in the man page? info coreutils 'uname invocation' It's way more complete. I looks like the problem may be in the information that it's being provided by the kernel it's not accurate, or at least it's not what uname is expecting :) So you think the problem is not in the man page for uname, but uname -i -m -p *should* display information about the hardware rather than the installed OS? It's interesting that POSIX only seem to cover -m, but not -i or -p: http://pubs.opengroup.org/onlinepubs/9699919799/utilities/uname.html For -m says on which the system is running, which doesn't seem to be coherent with the uname output we are getting in a 64 bit system running a 32 bit kernel. Regards, Juan -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] uname -a for 32 bit os on 64 bit cpu
Juan J. wrote: For -m says on which the system is running, which doesn't seem to be coherent with the uname output we are getting in a 64 bit system running a 32 bit kernel. It depends why you are interested. When a 686 kernel is running on an amd64 chip, it *is* running on 686 hardware (it must be since it is running 686 code), but it is some 686 hardware with extensions such that it can also run amd64 code. If it was only capable of running amd64 code there'd be no problems because you couldn't run anything other than amd64 kernels on it, but that's not how it was designed. The ambiguity comes from the fact that an amd64 chip is both a 686 chip and an amd64 chip. I suspect it also doesn't help that, historically, users of uname have expected to be told about the kernel that was running for purposes of crafting things that run on that kernel, rather than information about the underlying hardware for the purposes of choosing a new kernel. -- Avi -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] uname -a for 32 bit os on 64 bit cpu
On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 08:57:44AM +, Colin Law wrote: So you think the problem is not in the man page for uname, but uname -i -m -p *should* display information about the hardware rather than the installed OS? This won't change - uname is used in scripts that need to know specifically about the running kernel. -- Colin Watson [cjwat...@ubuntu.com] -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] uname -a for 32 bit os on 64 bit cpu
On 15 November 2011 09:35, Avi Greenbury li...@avi.co wrote: Juan J. wrote: For -m says on which the system is running, which doesn't seem to be coherent with the uname output we are getting in a 64 bit system running a 32 bit kernel. It depends why you are interested. When a 686 kernel is running on an amd64 chip, it *is* running on 686 hardware (it must be since it is running 686 code), but it is some 686 hardware with extensions such that it can also run amd64 code. But if you run uname in the 64 bit OS it says that it is running on a different type of hardware, which it is not, it is just that the 64 bit OS uses the extensions whereas the 32 bit does not. Colin -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] uname -a for 32 bit os on 64 bit cpu
On 15 November 2011 09:41, Colin Watson cjwat...@ubuntu.com wrote: On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 08:57:44AM +, Colin Law wrote: So you think the problem is not in the man page for uname, but uname -i -m -p *should* display information about the hardware rather than the installed OS? This won't change - uname is used in scripts that need to know specifically about the running kernel. So a solution would be to improve the documentation to remove the ambiguity. Colin -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] uname -a for 32 bit os on 64 bit cpu
Colin Law wrote: On 15 November 2011 09:35, Avi Greenbury li...@avi.co wrote: Juan J. wrote: For -m says on which the system is running, which doesn't seem to be coherent with the uname output we are getting in a 64 bit system running a 32 bit kernel. It depends why you are interested. When a 686 kernel is running on an amd64 chip, it *is* running on 686 hardware (it must be since it is running 686 code), but it is some 686 hardware with extensions such that it can also run amd64 code. But if you run uname in the 64 bit OS it says that it is running on a different type of hardware, which it is not, it is just that the 64 bit OS uses the extensions whereas the 32 bit does not. No, it doesn't. It says exactly what it's running on. If you run uname on an amd64 kernel it tells you it's running on amd64 hardware, which is true even if the processor can also do 686. If you run uname on a 686 kernel it tells you it's running on 686 hardware, which is true even if the processor can also do amd64. The problem, if there is one, is that uname's man page doesn't explicitly state that it asks the kernel what it's sat atop, rather than asking the hardware for its full capabilities. -- Avi -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] uname -a for 32 bit os on 64 bit cpu
On 15 November 2011 11:29, Avi Greenbury li...@avi.co wrote: Colin Law wrote: On 15 November 2011 09:35, Avi Greenbury li...@avi.co wrote: Juan J. wrote: For -m says on which the system is running, which doesn't seem to be coherent with the uname output we are getting in a 64 bit system running a 32 bit kernel. It depends why you are interested. When a 686 kernel is running on an amd64 chip, it *is* running on 686 hardware (it must be since it is running 686 code), but it is some 686 hardware with extensions such that it can also run amd64 code. But if you run uname in the 64 bit OS it says that it is running on a different type of hardware, which it is not, it is just that the 64 bit OS uses the extensions whereas the 32 bit does not. No, it doesn't. It says exactly what it's running on. If you run uname on an amd64 kernel it tells you it's running on amd64 hardware, which is true even if the processor can also do 686. If you run uname on a 686 kernel it tells you it's running on 686 hardware, which is true even if the processor can also do amd64. I think you are stretching things a bit here. If you had an amd64 PC with dual boot of Ubuntu 32 and 64 and I asked you what processor type was in the PC (which is what uname -p says it shows) you would not say hold on a minute I have got to check which OS I am running before I can answer that. However we are just quibbling over the meaning of a few words here, the point is that the documentation is ambiguous, as you are about to point out... The problem, if there is one, is that uname's man page doesn't explicitly state that it asks the kernel what it's sat atop, rather than asking the hardware for its full capabilities. Agreed, plus possibly a few words pointing out the significance of this. I maintain there *is* a problem as people have been confused by the documentation (including myself), therefore it would benefit from clarification, so we don't need to repeat this discussion every few months :) Colin -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] uname -a for 32 bit os on 64 bit cpu
On Tue, 2011-11-15 at 11:54 +, Colin Law wrote: [...] Agreed, plus possibly a few words pointing out the significance of this. I maintain there *is* a problem as people have been confused by the documentation (including myself), therefore it would benefit from clarification, so we don't need to repeat this discussion every few months :) Oh, it could be worse... For example: http://www.linuxatemyram.com/ :) Regards, Juan -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] The Next Happy Hour - Thursday 8th December, Surbiton (west London)
On 13 November 2011 10:04, Alan Bell alanb...@ubuntu.com wrote: Hi all, the next Happy Hour will be on the 8th of December in Surbiton. A well connected part of West London with good train access to everywhere. The exact venue is yet to be determined, but the intrepid explorer Dan Fish has volunteered to take one for the team and go on a research expedition to explore suitability of the available options. He will let us know the venue just as soon as he recovers. I'm game - Surbiton is fairly local for me. I asked a friend who lives there for recommendations for (or against) local hostelries. This was the result: « Name: Bosco Lounge Bar Address: 9 St Marks Hill, Surbiton, Surrey, KT6 4LQ Hotel / brasserie place. A gastro. Name: The Coronation Hall Address: St. Marks Hill, Surbiton, Surrey, KT6 4LQ A grim Spoonie. Lots of room but did I mention it was grim? Name: Corkys Wine Bar Address: 12, Claremont Rd, Surbiton, Surrey, KT6 4QU Even grimmer than the Spoonie. Fights. Avoid. Name: The Surbiton Flyer ** Address: 84 Victoria Rd, Surbiton, Surrey, KT6 4PD Right beside the station, turn left when you come out of the entrance. Not that exciting but reasonable if a bit pricey. Usually seats going. Gastro leanings. Name: Duke of York ** Address: 64-65 Victoria Road, Surbiton, Surrey, KT6 4NQ Pricey gastro, but usually a reasonable atmosphere. Pleasant enough place for a quiet midweek drink. Live music. Name: The Victoria ** Address: 28 Victoria Road, Surbiton, Surrey, KT6 4JT Slightly more run down than the Duke, but friendly locals and staff. Gets noisy when the footy is on TV. Youngs. Usually has some seats. Name: The Antelope Address: 87 Maple Rd, Surbiton, Surrey, KT6 4AW Footie pub. Never been in there. Looks rough from outside. Name: Rubicon Bar ** Address: 97 Maple Road, Surbiton, Surrey, KT6 4AW Expensive wine bar run by a cute blonde. Bar furniture looks like it's been nicked from Blake’s 7. Quite like drinking in there occasionally but it’s a bit up itself. Either quiet as the grave or full of media types. Name: Gordon Bennnett bar + kitchen ** Address: 75 Maple Road, Surbiton, Surrey, KT6 4AG A Sunday roast, newspapers, 3 bottles of wine and a Bloody Mary type gastro. OK in the afternoon, crowded Weds-Sat nights. Personally I like it but service can be slow and the manager’s got a rep for being grumpy although I've always thought he was okay. Name: The Grove Tavern Address: Grove Road, Surbiton, Surrey, KT6 4BX Similar to GBs above. A gastro, big beer garden with decking. OK, as I recall but not been in there for 2 years. Name: The Saucy Kettle Address: 7 Brighton Rd, Surbiton, Surrey, KT6 5LX Sporty and sticky. Empty in the week, rammed on Saturdays for big screen footie. Occasionally violent. There's a cheap and cheerful Indian (cash meals half price, dodgy arse the next day) two doors up. Name: The Black Lion Address: 58 Brighton Rd, Surbiton, Surrey, KT6 5PL Cheap, and quieter early in the week, bit rough occasionally. Beer OK as I recall. Name: The Lamb ** Address: 73 Brighton Rd, Surbiton, Surrey, KT6 5NF Good beer, not too pricey, but cheeseboards are the only food and they are a bit pricey for what you get. Bit cramped if you’re a large group. Always a few regulars on the same stools around the bar. » -- Liam Proven • Info profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk • GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lpro...@gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 • Cell: +44 7939-087884 • Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven • MSN: lpro...@hotmail.com • ICQ: 73187508 -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] The Next Happy Hour - Thursday 8th December, Surbiton (west London)
Thanks for that Liam. I've not had the pleasure(?) of drinking in most of those so very useful. Having talking to the locals that I work with in Surbiton, for the best mix of price/friendliness/space, the Victoria might be best REgards Dan On 13 November 2011 10:04, Alan Bellalanb...@ubuntu.com wrote: Hi all, the next Happy Hour will be on the 8th of December in Surbiton. A well connected part of West London with good train access to everywhere. The exact venue is yet to be determined, but the intrepid explorer Dan Fish has volunteered to take one for the team and go on a research expedition to explore suitability of the available options. He will let us know the venue just as soon as he recovers. I'm game - Surbiton is fairly local for me. I asked a friend who lives there for recommendations for (or against) local hostelries. This was the result: « Name: Bosco Lounge Bar Address: 9 St Marks Hill, Surbiton, Surrey, KT6 4LQ Hotel / brasserie place. A gastro. Name: The Coronation Hall Address: St. Marks Hill, Surbiton, Surrey, KT6 4LQ A grim Spoonie. Lots of room but did I mention it was grim? Name: Corkys Wine Bar Address: 12, Claremont Rd, Surbiton, Surrey, KT6 4QU Even grimmer than the Spoonie. Fights. Avoid. Name: The Surbiton Flyer ** Address: 84 Victoria Rd, Surbiton, Surrey, KT6 4PD Right beside the station, turn left when you come out of the entrance. Not that exciting but reasonable if a bit pricey. Usually seats going. Gastro leanings. Name: Duke of York ** Address: 64-65 Victoria Road, Surbiton, Surrey, KT6 4NQ Pricey gastro, but usually a reasonable atmosphere. Pleasant enough place for a quiet midweek drink. Live music. Name: The Victoria ** Address: 28 Victoria Road, Surbiton, Surrey, KT6 4JT Slightly more run down than the Duke, but friendly locals and staff. Gets noisy when the footy is on TV. Youngs. Usually has some seats. Name: The Antelope Address: 87 Maple Rd, Surbiton, Surrey, KT6 4AW Footie pub. Never been in there. Looks rough from outside. Name: Rubicon Bar ** Address: 97 Maple Road, Surbiton, Surrey, KT6 4AW Expensive wine bar run by a cute blonde. Bar furniture looks like it's been nicked from Blake’s 7. Quite like drinking in there occasionally but it’s a bit up itself. Either quiet as the grave or full of media types. Name: Gordon Bennnett bar + kitchen ** Address: 75 Maple Road, Surbiton, Surrey, KT6 4AG A Sunday roast, newspapers, 3 bottles of wine and a Bloody Mary type gastro. OK in the afternoon, crowded Weds-Sat nights. Personally I like it but service can be slow and the manager’s got a rep for being grumpy although I've always thought he was okay. Name: The Grove Tavern Address: Grove Road, Surbiton, Surrey, KT6 4BX Similar to GBs above. A gastro, big beer garden with decking. OK, as I recall but not been in there for 2 years. Name: The Saucy Kettle Address: 7 Brighton Rd, Surbiton, Surrey, KT6 5LX Sporty and sticky. Empty in the week, rammed on Saturdays for big screen footie. Occasionally violent. There's a cheap and cheerful Indian (cash meals half price, dodgy arse the next day) two doors up. Name: The Black Lion Address: 58 Brighton Rd, Surbiton, Surrey, KT6 5PL Cheap, and quieter early in the week, bit rough occasionally. Beer OK as I recall. Name: The Lamb ** Address: 73 Brighton Rd, Surbiton, Surrey, KT6 5NF Good beer, not too pricey, but cheeseboards are the only food and they are a bit pricey for what you get. Bit cramped if you’re a large group. Always a few regulars on the same stools around the bar. » -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
[ubuntu-uk] Christmas Meal
Thanks to those who expressed an interest in the Christmas meal, I have now made a reservation for 9 people on the 9th of December (yes, the day after the happy hour in Surbiton) From the reservation confirmation: In case you would need to cancel your booking or if the number of guests needs to be changed, thank you to warn us as soon as possible. We reserved a disabled guide to come and take care of a certain number of customers; we have a very special organization and if this number is changing, we have to notify the guides of it as soon as possible. - For groups of 6 covers or more, please note that concerning any cancellation made less than 48 hours before your booking, we will charge £15.00 per person. In case of no show, there is a charge of £35.00 per person. Please note that Dans le Noir? is more than just a restaurant, it is a real experience. A disabled person will take care of your table throughout this event. The guides often come from far away so it is important, for this experience that you arrive on time. I have given them my credit card and I will be charged lots of money for people not turning up in the last 48 hours. I will be recovering any charges! So what I need you to do now, is to go to the event page http://loco.ubuntu.com/events/ubuntu-uk/1409/detail/ and if you have marked yourself as attending or maybe attending you should review this, and either mark yourself as attending, or not attending. I will update the reservation with dans le noir accordingly as people sign up. At some point the place might get full, I will be keeping in touch with people individually to confirm whether they are or are not included in the reservation. Alan. -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
[ubuntu-uk] Problem when powering off - suspend light flashing
I have a problem that I am pretty sure is nothing to do with Ubuntu but I hope somebody here may be able to help. On one of my desktop PCs (running Ubuntu 11.10), about 50% of the time when I shutdown it does a normal power down but then the standby light flashes as if it were in standby. It is not actually in standby and does not respond to pressing the power button. To recover I have to pull the power lead out for about 10 seconds and then it (usually) is ok after plugging back in, and will do a normal power up after pressing the power button. I assume it is a hardware problem, presumably either the mother board or the power supply but I have not got a spare of either so I can't try swapping them out. Any thoughts anyone? Colin -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Problem when powering off - suspend light flashing
Coming out of standby is a major issue on a lot of machines. Usually a problem with the video drivers (but not always). What video card do you have? My machine will not come out of standby 90% of the time running FGLRX radeon drivers, but does on the open source drivers, works as good as gold on the open source version. Cheers Steve -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
[ubuntu-uk] Ubuntu desktop app hacking
Hi all, Following the last meeting [1], I was left with the action to look for a venue to do some Ubuntu desktop app hacking evenings. As suggested by Jorvik during the meeting, I went tonight to have a look at the London Hackspace in Hoxton [2] to see if it would be a good place to do that. So here's a quick summary: * The space is good, there's wi-fi and a quiet room where they do talks and events that would be suited to that. * If the event is open to all at the Hackspace, we'd be able to do it for free. Of course, we would need to chose the day so that is doesn't clash with other events. I reckon that's a good thing as it could get more people interested. * Non-members are welcome too so there's no need to become a member. Although they won't say no if you contribute a small donation or decide to become a member :-) * The only downside is that it's slightly out of the way and a fair walk from the closest tube station (Old Street). Generally, they seem very open to anything as long as it's hacking of some sort and everybody can get involved so it definitely looks like a good option to me. [1] http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-uk-meeting/2011/ubuntu-uk-meeting.2011-11-10-21.07.log.txt [2] https://london.hackspace.org.uk/ Cheers, Bruno -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Ubuntu desktop app hacking
Hi Bruno, On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 10:49:50PM +, Bruno Girin wrote: Following the last meeting [1], I was left with the action to look for a venue to do some Ubuntu desktop app hacking evenings. As suggested by Jorvik during the meeting, I went tonight to have a look at the London Hackspace in Hoxton [2] to see if it would be a good place to do that. Excellent! As a long time hackspace member who really doesn't attend enough, I have to say that hackspace is a truly awesome project. * Non-members are welcome too so there's no need to become a member. Although they won't say no if you contribute a small donation or decide to become a member :-) Membership is also really cheap, and gets you unescorted 24 hour access (Oyster or other RFID card opens the door) and a storage box of your own. * The only downside is that it's slightly out of the way and a fair walk from the closest tube station (Old Street). It's not that bad! Yes, the nearest tube is 0.7 miles away (and Liverpool St. just over a mile), but Hoxton station is literally over the road from the 'space, and the East London Line is quite good. I live (far out) in West London myself so the journey is quite annoying, but if it was out West then it'd be just as bad for people in the East. :) Generally, they seem very open to anything as long as it's hacking of some sort and everybody can get involved so it definitely looks like a good option to me. I think there's nowhere better to meet people doing interesting hands-on things with technology. You get a chance to use all manner of tools that you would otherwise find very hard/expensive to gain access to, and some people who are usually happy to give you basic instruction in their safe use. I'm really glad to hear that you found time to have a visit. Cheers, Andy -- http://bitfolk.com/ -- No-nonsense VPS hosting -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
