Re: [ubuntu-uk] Ubuntu/Linux is still not an OS for the masses - discuss
HA Urdu! Hey i can follow the Urdu instructions...although not a great fan of the font! On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 12:19 AM, Rob Beard r...@esdelle.co.uk wrote: On 19/10/10 21:29, Barry Drake wrote: On Tue, 2010-10-19 at 12:47 +0100, pmgazz wrote: Totally agree, takes a fraction of the time and botheration 95% of the time. That's my experience exactly! I've installed various incarnations of Windows and it's been a real pain! Compared to that, Ubuntu is just S simple. My biggest annoyance with Windows was it's propensity to give you a two minute countdown and then it will re-boot to install the latest goodies. I often left videos rendering overnight imagine my anger when that nice Mr. Gates had made my machine re-boot without my intervention!!! He wasted hours of my computer time!!! Hmmm, I've not had that myself, on XP it would pop up with the annoying message asking to reboot every 15 minutes or so but on Vista and Windows 7 you get the option to postpone the reboot and make the message go away for a few hours. If you don't click on anything it just sits there. On the other hand, at work we use XP and install stuff using SMS and some things are configured to reboot automatically 5 minutes after installing. I don't have anything against Windows, but I really find Ubuntu slicker and easier in so many ways even for a non-geek. I agree, I much prefer Ubuntu now. 10.10 looks lovely, and now I'm finally getting used to the window controls moving (so much in fact it seems like they're in the wrong place on Windows now!). Oh and Ubuntu has earnt some more brownie points this evening. It turns out my server (P4 3Ghz with 2 x IDE and 2 x SATA hard drives in it) died. Not sure whats wrong with it, possibly duff PSU. I needed to get it up and running quickly so I dropped the hard drives in an Athlon X2 PC booted them up and after a long drawn out fsck (due to fsck not being run for ages) the server came up fine. I've not had it that easy with Windows. Rob -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/ -- Regards Javad -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Ubuntu/Linux is still not an OS for the masses - discuss
On 13/10/2010 12:08, John Matthews wrote: On 13/10/10 11:49, chris cundy wrote: I think the point of any Linux desktop distro is not that everything will work perfectly with every combination of hardware available but to work with most hardware. The issue with computer users is not that they can't solve problems or get a particular setup working how they would like, its that they won't try. We have become too happy to rely on others to do all our thinking. I too have come across problems with Graphic and Wifi cards yet I appreciate the time and effort people have put in to create a wonderful free product or to assist fools like me in forums. One day I hope that my mucking about might be able to assist the wider community. I'm excited that broad comm has released an open source driver, and when I have time I will be swearing at some of my older laptops as I try to make them work on Wifi with Ubuntu and the new driver. As for the problem with the NVidia cards, install the driver :) I am lucky (not that the wife would agree) that I have vast amounts of Graphics cards laying about, so if I do bump up against a problem I will swap out until I find a card that works and use that instead. Failing that I will install FreeNX and just connect remotely and debug/install from a different machine. Obviously using the CD to check if your hardware setup will work is great. Its a shame you can't do that with Windows... (someone is bound to tell me I'm wrong about that). I have spent less time chasing down bugs and fixing incompatibles under Ubuntu then I did under XP (or 3.11). Ubuntu has pushed Linux into the general public view and is almost ready to be a solution for all. If my Mum/Dad/Wife/Grandparents can get to grips with it then I'm confidant that one day it will give Microsoft/Apple some great competition. Chris Unix Support/Linux Liker/Windows Acceptor This is what I find unacceptable with Ubuntu, the fact that those in the know, always say, we get fed of people not trying. Its not about not trying, this guy has just said how he has tried, and cant get his Ubuntu to work. Those who know, always seem to be those that stand there and say Ubuntu is easy, easier than windows. If it was easy, and easier than windows, why did so many people, when the big drive a few years back to to have Ubuntu preinstalled, take their computers back. I know in places like Dixons and Curries' which is where I bought my Netbook, the guys behind the counter told me they got most of them back, because people couldnt even get their internet connection to work, showds that was a waste of time. So saying, preinstalled Ubuntu would make a difference, I think you'll find those that did sell preinstalled, would tell you different. I know my experiences tell me as somebody who isnt a programmer and who basically self taught, say it isnt easy, and, help, well, that is another matter. There is so much and so many different things to look for when you have Ubuntu, that its confusing to say the least. Windows as much as I hate it, is easier to set up than Ubuntu. Ubuntu, will start out of the box, and you might be able to surf the net, but as far as graphics are concerned, it doesnt tell you that you have to spend hours installing extras, not just a few things, but dozens of things, to get the graphics working, and even then it doesnt always work. So to say, its easier than windows, and its the users fault, I think that is not a good thing to put over. Sorry. I have said this myself before, it wont be program for masses. John -- Ubuntu User #30817 Two points - on all three machines that originally came with windows that I have installed Ubuntu (and other flavours) on, the graphics just worked - I didn't need to tweak anything. I have middle of the road machines such as might be sold to a business with ordinary commonly-used graphics cards. Secondly, I would suggest that you cannot compare the masses installing Ubuntu with the masses installing Windows - the masses have never HAD to install Windows - it comes (by and large) pre-installed with all drivers etc etc. Just lurk on the MS forums for a while and see all the problems THERE with users re- installing Windows and other software. Installing Ubuntu IS as easy as installing Windows and a darn sight faster to get a fully-functioning machine. Once you have installed Windows you THEN have to install your AV, you THEN have to install Office (or whatever you use) so that's a good DOUBLE the time Ubuntu takes -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Ubuntu/Linux is still not an OS for the masses - discuss
On 19/10/10 10:24, Gordon Burgess-Parker wrote: On 13/10/2010 12:08, John Matthews wrote: On 13/10/10 11:49, chris cundy wrote: Installing Ubuntu IS as easy as installing Windows and a darn sight faster to get a fully-functioning machine. Once you have installed Windows you THEN have to install your AV, you THEN have to install Office (or whatever you use) so that's a good DOUBLE the time Ubuntu takes Totally agree, takes a fraction of the time and botheration 95% of the time. For the remaining 5%, at least one is in a helpful environment where people care whether your graphics etc etc work or not and you don't end up crawling all over the web trying to find an obsolete driver from a company that's gone bust (and never cared anyway) and which isn't crawling with viruses. Even with an installation driver CD handy, I still don't miss the rebooting, rebooting, rebooting, rebooting . . . ! And the bizarre rituals for installing USB peripherals so XP doesn't lose the driver. Both can drive you up the wall when you hit a problem, but I reckon Ubuntu comes out easier and faster for installation 95% of the time. Paula -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Ubuntu/Linux is still not an OS for the masses - discuss
On 19/10/2010 12:47, pmgazz wrote: And the bizarre rituals for installing USB peripherals so XP doesn't lose the driver. I could NEVER understand that. Even in Win 7, insert a USB stick you get installing device drivers. Remove it and insert another make of USB stick into the SAME USB port, and guess what? Installing device drivers... WHY? Surely a USB stick is a USB stick is a USB stick -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Ubuntu/Linux is still not an OS for the masses - discuss
On Tue, 2010-10-19 at 12:47 +0100, pmgazz wrote: Totally agree, takes a fraction of the time and botheration 95% of the time. That's my experience exactly! I've installed various incarnations of Windows and it's been a real pain! Compared to that, Ubuntu is just S simple. My biggest annoyance with Windows was it's propensity to give you a two minute countdown and then it will re-boot to install the latest goodies. I often left videos rendering overnight imagine my anger when that nice Mr. Gates had made my machine re-boot without my intervention!!! He wasted hours of my computer time!!! I don't have anything against Windows, but I really find Ubuntu slicker and easier in so many ways even for a non-geek. Regards,Barry Drake. -- Sent from my Dell Netbook using Ubuntu - the window-free environment that gives me real fresh air. -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Ubuntu/Linux is still not an OS for the masses - discuss
On 19/10/10 21:29, Barry Drake wrote: On Tue, 2010-10-19 at 12:47 +0100, pmgazz wrote: Totally agree, takes a fraction of the time and botheration 95% of the time. That's my experience exactly! I've installed various incarnations of Windows and it's been a real pain! Compared to that, Ubuntu is just S simple. My biggest annoyance with Windows was it's propensity to give you a two minute countdown and then it will re-boot to install the latest goodies. I often left videos rendering overnight imagine my anger when that nice Mr. Gates had made my machine re-boot without my intervention!!! He wasted hours of my computer time!!! Hmmm, I've not had that myself, on XP it would pop up with the annoying message asking to reboot every 15 minutes or so but on Vista and Windows 7 you get the option to postpone the reboot and make the message go away for a few hours. If you don't click on anything it just sits there. On the other hand, at work we use XP and install stuff using SMS and some things are configured to reboot automatically 5 minutes after installing. I don't have anything against Windows, but I really find Ubuntu slicker and easier in so many ways even for a non-geek. I agree, I much prefer Ubuntu now. 10.10 looks lovely, and now I'm finally getting used to the window controls moving (so much in fact it seems like they're in the wrong place on Windows now!). Oh and Ubuntu has earnt some more brownie points this evening. It turns out my server (P4 3Ghz with 2 x IDE and 2 x SATA hard drives in it) died. Not sure whats wrong with it, possibly duff PSU. I needed to get it up and running quickly so I dropped the hard drives in an Athlon X2 PC booted them up and after a long drawn out fsck (due to fsck not being run for ages) the server came up fine. I've not had it that easy with Windows. Rob -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Ubuntu/Linux is still not an OS for the masses - discuss
You might be interested in following the progress of this blueprint https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/hardware-desktop-n-xorg-configuration-the-final-ten-percent which will be discussed at UDS, currently scheduled for 09:00 EST on Wednesday 27th. http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-n/2010-10-27/ -- Alan Bell The Open Learning Centre Web: http://www.theopenlearningcentre.com Mob: +44 (0)7738 789190 Tel: +44 (0)844 3576000 The Open Learning Centre is a trading name of Bell Lord Ltd, a company registered in England and Wales #05868943. VAT Registration #GB 901 4715 55 -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Ubuntu/Linux is still not an OS for the masses - discuss
On 14/10/10 06:27, Traveller wrote: My experience installing 10.04 does not support this claim, Alan. In my case, on a system with on-board nVidia graphics, X not only failed to start, the monitor went to sleep after claiming No input. Fortunately for me, I still had a working WinXP available, and I was able to learn that this was a known issue, and the solution was to select nomodeset from F6 before commencing installation. I must say, though, that I was very pleased with the Maverick installer. Not only is this the first release since 9.04 that has actually got my wifi working straight away, but the INSTALLER actually found the wifi and downloaded updates on the fly! Made me very happy! Now if I can just get the sound to work the way I want it to... Traveller Here is the spec where the failsafe X was designed: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BulletProofX Here is the testing procedure and bug reporting instructions for failures of the failsafe X mode https://wiki.ubuntu.com/X/Testing/Failsafe Here are the 13 open bugs against failsafe http://ubunt.eu/9a The #ubuntu-x IRC Channel is where people interested in improving X on Ubuntu tend to be, but your first port of call should be #ubuntu-uk. This is where overall quality testing of Ubuntu on different hardware takes place http://qa.ubuntu.com/testing/ There are lots of different nvidia cards, there are lots of different monitors, there is crappy hardware that misreports it's capabilities and comes with Windows drivers that work around known defects in the hardware. I used to have a laptop with nvidia graphics, it worked fine for me until the hinges snapped, my current hardware has Intel drivers which basically worked out of the box, however there is a bug on the VGA output causing an instability in the signal, that is bug 614238 which I am subscribed to, have commented on and is being tracked upstream at http://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=28306. At some point that will get fixed, in the mean time I am using the HDMI output with a converter to DVI and I have a rock solid display on the external monitor. Alan. -- Alan Bell The Open Learning Centre Web: http://www.theopenlearningcentre.com Mob: +44 (0)7738 789190 Tel: +44 (0)844 3576000 The Open Learning Centre is a trading name of Bell Lord Ltd, a company registered in England and Wales #05868943. VAT Registration #GB 901 4715 55 -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Ubuntu/Linux is still not an OS for the masses - discuss
On 14/10/10 08:21, Will Bickerstaff wrote: The Open Learning Centre is a trading name of Bell Lord Ltd, a company registered in England and Wales #05868943. VAT Registration #GB 901 4715 55 Lord Bell would have been a much cooler name Nah - would be confusing and is not in alphabetical order :-) Also, it's only a holding company for our various adventures, we don't use it as a trading name. Al (Lord) -- The Open Learning Centre http://www.theopenlearningcentre.com -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Ubuntu/Linux is still not an OS for the masses - discuss
On 13/10/10 18:25, Rob Beard wrote: John, have you tried maybe contacting your local Linux User Group (assuming there is one near you?). You can find a list of LUGs here: http://lug.org.uk/listings If you can find a local LUG which is active (seems like some of them aren't so active) then maybe one of the LUG members could pop over and see you and go through the problems you're having. Maybe another pair of eyes actually looking at things might help. Okay it's not 100% guaranteed but it could be worth a shot. Rob Hi Rob, Unfortunately, its my pc, that is the main problem, and I dont have transport to pick up my pc, and take it to a lug meeting. As for other points, cant remember who suggesting I was telling people 'woe is me the world of Ubuntu all against me'. I didnt say that, what I posted about in this thread, has actually happened to me. Take that how you like. John -- Ubuntu User #30817 -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Ubuntu/Linux is still not an OS for the masses - discuss
On Thu, 2010-10-14 at 10:59 +0100, John Matthews wrote: Hi Rob, Unfortunately, its my pc, that is the main problem, and I dont have transport to pick up my pc, and take it to a lug meeting. Ubuntu folk are (for the most part) really helpful people. If you happened to live close to Nottingham I would happily pop around and spend a couple of hours, especially if you were to offer a beer! I'm sure the same goes for many of us around the country. Why not give your approx. location and see who responds off-list? I really hope we can help. Regards,Barry Drake -- Sent from my Dell Netbook using Ubuntu - the window-free environment that gives me real fresh air. -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Ubuntu/Linux is still not an OS for the masses - discuss
Why not give your approx. location and see who responds off-list? You might also find that someone is willing to pick you up and give you a lift to a lug met. Kent Lug members often do this -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Ubuntu/Linux is still not an OS for the masses - discuss
On 14/10/10 11:26, Barry Drake wrote: Ubuntu folk are (for the most part) really helpful people. If you happened to live close to Nottingham I would happily pop around and spend a couple of hours, especially if you were to offer a beer! I'm sure the same goes for many of us around the country. Why not give your approx. location and see who responds off-list? I really hope we can help. Regards, Barry Drake -- Hi Barry, thank you, I really appreciate it, unfortunately, I live in London. Thank you any way. :) John. -- Ubuntu User #30817 -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Ubuntu/Linux is still not an OS for the masses - discuss
On 13/10/10 17:55, Colin Law wrote: On 13 October 2010 10:28, Melv Baileymelvbai...@googlemail.com wrote: If you're a power user of any platform and you change platform, the experience feels very dis-empowering and frustrating. This isn't necessarily related to the relative merits of the two platforms. Know when to take a break, have a cuppa, b - r - e - a - t - h - e A lot of the time you will then be able to concentrate and fix it yourself but, if not, you can get help from other human beings, but they're volunteers not call-centre employees trained and paid to absorb other people's frustration. Otherwise, if one really feels that MS Windows is so much better, it would seem sensible to stick with it? Paula -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Ubuntu/Linux is still not an OS for the masses - discuss
On 14/10/10 11:31, John Matthews wrote: Hi Barry, thank you, I really appreciate it, unfortunately, I live in London. Thank you any way. :) John. GLLUG meets fairly regularly and they do this kind of thing. http://www.gllug.org.uk/ We have drop-ins starting soon, these are aimed at VCS folk but if there's enough people help out I don't mind if Ubuntu users at large come along too. http://fossbox.org.uk/blog/?p=362 Paula -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Ubuntu/Linux is still not an OS for the masses - discuss
** Melv Bailey melvbai...@googlemail.com [2010-10-13 15:14]: snip I will probably get it to work on one of my PCs eventually when I can trawl the bug lists and forums for a solution, but my Win 7 on an Athlon XP2500+ and Nvidia 6800 that took less than an hour to setup is working it will have to wait for some free time, but I am certain the cost of the time taken to resolve it will exceed the cost of Win 7. ** end quote [Melv Bailey] At a high level that's pretty close to the machine spec I've just installed Win 7 on (Athlon XP2500+ and nVidia 6200), however to demonstrate how much of this is down to individual experience, mine was almost precisely the opposite. Ubuntu (10.04 in this case) booted and worked fine off the live CD (I've not actually installed to HD yet). Windows 7, on the other hand, took a day or so (not continuous) of searching and experimentation to track down the problems, get it installed and working. The main initial problem with Windows 7 was that the DVD boot loader is fundamentally incompatible with my motherboard. This is, it seems, a known issue that Microsoft have ignored since the public beta versions, it was certainly heavily discussed with solutions including burning duplicate DVDs with alternative bootloaders (not sure how that fits with MS licensing!!). My solution involved a USB floppy drive and an open source boot utility called Gujin. Once installed I found reduced functionality on my printer driver and initially on support for the scanner (although a generic series driver did work). My other machine (Athlong 2800+ and nVidia 6200) had a similar experience, I had to load in drivers for the SATA controller at boot time. Then the NIC wasn't supported on the DVD (nothing fancy or new, just a basic SIS900). To get the NIC working I had to load in XP drivers, connect to Windows Update and it then downloaded the proper Windows 7 ones - well it did after a few attempts and install failures. This also fixed the lack of sound. I have yet to sort out my SCSI card, which is admittedly old (Adaptec 2940), but I have no intention of purchasing a new one - I'll just access the hardware only when I'm in Ubuntu, which installed flawlessly within an hour (10.04 again). Oh, my web cam was incompatible too, although apparently if I download firmware for a different model and install it I can get it working!! With my brand new build for my dad I have the joy of sorting out his scanner, which has no Windows 7 driver. It does, however, have a transparency adaptor that he wants to use, and I don't think new scanners have this feature - so if anyone knows of a utility for transparency adaptors (Epson) under Linux I'll get him scanning in the Ubuntu boot :) With the x86 and derivative hardware it can be luck of the draw, although (barring brand new hardware) it does seem, form my experience, that Windows 7 now has the difficult install and poor driver support, whereas Ubuntu/Linux has the upper hand ;) Support wise, I can sympathise, although based on experience when asking questions on Windows forums. The first one that comes to mind is Experts Exchange (now a pay site and abandoned), but there have been others. I tend to be greeted by a deathly silence. My last experience of support direct from Microsoft when I was having problems with WGA was to find myself accused of having purchased a pirated copy and asked to provide details of my retailer. Once I had proved it was genuine and the error was in the MS database I was provided with a new key to write on a sticker next to the genuine one - so it now looks like a pirated copy!!! The moral of the story is that any software has problems, you get them solved by perseverance, patience, giving plenty of detail and a little bit of luck - whichever side of the divide you fall. -- Paul Tansom | Aptanet Ltd. | http://www.aptanet.com/ | 023 9238 0001 == Registered in England | Company No: 4905028 | Registered Office: Crawford House, Hambledon Road, Denmead, Waterlooville, Hants, PO7 6NU -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Ubuntu/Linux is still not an OS for the masses - discuss
** Paul Tansom p...@aptanet.com [2010-10-14 14:34]: snip With my brand new build for my dad I have the joy of sorting out his scanner, which has no Windows 7 driver. It does, however, have a transparency adaptor that he wants to use, and I don't think new scanners have this feature - so if anyone knows of a utility for transparency adaptors (Epson) under Linux I'll get him scanning in the Ubuntu boot :) ** end quote [Paul Tansom] That'll teach me to make off hand comments mid email. The scanner has the TPU supported with the sane drivers. I guess that's what comes of having ignored multimedia support for so long on Linux! It's only when I switched to Ubuntu that I really bothered with sound, etc.. So long as I had a desktop to start my shell sessions and once in a blue moon print I was happy :) If sound, etc. support was there great, if not I never bothered. Gimp and Scribus was a 'new media' as I needed! -- Paul Tansom | Aptanet Ltd. | http://www.aptanet.com/ | 023 9238 0001 == Registered in England | Company No: 4905028 | Registered Office: Crawford House, Hambledon Road, Denmead, Waterlooville, Hants, PO7 6NU -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Ubuntu/Linux is still not an OS for the masses - discuss
On Thu, Oct 14, 2010 at 2:32 PM, Paul Tansom p...@aptanet.com wrote: Support wise, I can sympathise, although based on experience when asking questions on Windows forums. The first one that comes to mind is Experts Exchange (now a pay site and abandoned), but there have been others. snip EE is still a very active site - and probably one of the best IT general knowledge support sites out there. I maintain my free membership by answering a couple of questions each month I would recommend to any IT Pro's/technically savvy users out there that this is a good way to find out information when you need it in a hurry (I usually find an answer is forthcoming within an hour or 2, if it's not already in the knowledge base... My issue with general forums (particularly the Ubuntu forums due to the number of users) is that there are loads of competent users giving good advicebut the noise ratio is dire. EE tends to have a better quality response It's horses for courses I suppose...but I personally find EE extremely helpful in times of crisis :) -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Ubuntu/Linux is still not an OS for the masses - discuss
Seen http://askbuntu.com ? That is a new site for questions and answers and it seems quite popular. Paul Morgan-Roach roa...@roachy.net wrote: On Thu, Oct 14, 2010 at 2:32 PM, Paul Tansom p...@aptanet.com wrote: Support wise, I can sympathise, although based on experience when asking questions on Windows forums. The first one that comes to mind is Experts Exchange (now a pay site and abandoned), but there have been others. snip EE is still a very active site - and probably one of the best IT general knowledge support sites out there. I maintain my free membership by answering a couple of questions each month I would recommend to any IT Pro's/technically savvy users out there that this is a good way to find out information when you need it in a hurry (I usually find an answer is forthcoming within an hour or 2, if it's not already in the knowledge base... My issue with general forums (particularly the Ubuntu forums due to the number of users) is that there are loads of competent users giving good advicebut the noise ratio is dire. EE tends to have a better quality response It's horses for courses I suppose...but I personally find EE extremely helpful in times of crisis :) -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/ -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Ubuntu/Linux is still not an OS for the masses - discuss
On 14/10/10 19:39, Alan Bell wrote: Seenhttp://askbuntu.com ? That is a new site for questions and answers and it seems quite popular. Something wrong with link, wont work. -- Ubuntu User #30817 -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Ubuntu/Linux is still not an OS for the masses - discuss
John, http://askubuntu.com/ Paul (peejay1977) On Thu, 2010-10-14 at 19:44 +0100, John Matthews wrote: On 14/10/10 19:39, Alan Bell wrote: Seenhttp://askbuntu.com ? That is a new site for questions and answers and it seems quite popular. Something wrong with link, wont work. -- Ubuntu User #30817 -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Ubuntu/Linux is still not an OS for the masses - discuss
typo I think its http://askubuntu.com -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Ubuntu/Linux is still not an OS for the masses - discuss
On Thu, 2010-10-14 at 19:44 +0100, John Matthews wrote: On 14/10/10 19:39, Alan Bell wrote: Seenhttp://askbuntu.com ? That is a new site for questions and answers and it seems quite popular. Something wrong with link, wont work. Should be http://askubuntu.com/ Josh -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Ubuntu/Linux is still not an OS for the masses - discuss
http://askubuntu.com/ sorry, was typing on a phone using an email client full of fail. -- Alan Bell The Open Learning Centre Web: http://www.theopenlearningcentre.com Mob: +44 (0)7738 789190 Tel: +44 (0)844 3576000 The Open Learning Centre is a trading name of Bell Lord Ltd, a company registered in England and Wales #05868943. VAT Registration #GB 901 4715 55 -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Ubuntu/Linux is still not an OS for the masses - discuss
** Paul Morgan-Roach roa...@roachy.net [2010-10-14 18:51]: On Thu, Oct 14, 2010 at 2:32 PM, Paul Tansom p...@aptanet.com wrote: Support wise, I can sympathise, although based on experience when asking questions on Windows forums. The first one that comes to mind is Experts Exchange (now a pay site and abandoned), but there have been others. snip EE is still a very active site - and probably one of the best IT general knowledge support sites out there. I maintain my free membership by answering a couple of questions each month I would recommend to any IT Pro's/technically savvy users out there that this is a good way to find out information when you need it in a hurry (I usually find an answer is forthcoming within an hour or 2, if it's not already in the knowledge base... My issue with general forums (particularly the Ubuntu forums due to the number of users) is that there are loads of competent users giving good advicebut the noise ratio is dire. EE tends to have a better quality response It's horses for courses I suppose...but I personally find EE extremely helpful in times of crisis :) ** end quote [Paul Morgan-Roach] That's interesting. Your reply prompted me to go back and take another look and I could log in. I seem to remember when I last tried I got a message up insisting that I pay a subscription to do anything on the site. I may visit again. That said, in spite of joining the site in August 1998 I've only asked 3 questions - two of which have been deleted with no response at all, and the third has 3 responses; one that wasn't any help, one from me detailing the fix I found elsewhere, and a final one from the only responder wishing me well! Ho hum! -- Paul Tansom | Aptanet Ltd. | http://www.aptanet.com/ | 023 9238 0001 == Registered in England | Company No: 4905028 | Registered Office: Crawford House, Hambledon Road, Denmead, Waterlooville, Hants, PO7 6NU -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Ubuntu/Linux is still not an OS for the masses - discuss
On 14/10/10 19:52, Paul Jones wrote: John, http://askubuntu.com/ Paul (peejay1977) That one works, dont know why the other one didnt. :( Thank you. John -- Ubuntu User #30817 -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Ubuntu/Linux is still not an OS for the masses - discuss
On 14/10/10 11:26, Barry Drake wrote: On Thu, 2010-10-14 at 10:59 +0100, John Matthews wrote: Hi Rob, Unfortunately, its my pc, that is the main problem, and I dont have transport to pick up my pc, and take it to a lug meeting. Ubuntu folk are (for the most part) really helpful people. If you happened to live close to Nottingham I would happily pop around and spend a couple of hours, especially if you were to offer a beer! I'm sure the same goes for many of us around the country. Why not give your approx. location and see who responds off-list? I'd second that. I've been asked a couple of times if I could help peoples relatives/friends out who are close to me, if it turns out they're not so close I can usually find a fellow LUG member closer who is willing to help. I'm sure other members of the Ubuntu-UK list would be the same, happy to pop over and help someone out over a cup of tea/beer if they were near by. Rob -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
[ubuntu-uk] Ubuntu/Linux is still not an OS for the masses - discuss
Hi My first post and its only as a result of frustration with Ubuntu. I would like to post here a post I posted in the Ubuntu forums which got no repsonse other than load the NVidia driver (not the point of the original post, and how since I had a totally black screen with a mouse pointer). Quotes --- Sorry if this seems a bit of a rant but there is now another new version Of Ubuntu that STILL does not address the fundamentals of running on a range of hardware that is fine for Windows. This has caused me a problem since 8.04 (7.10 is the last version I have run sort of successfully without having to jump through VGA driver hoops but I did have to jump through wireless drivers hoops and didnt solve them). I know VGA drivers seem to be a massive problem for Linux, but there does not seem to be a way to solve it. How do you install other drivers when the default drivers dont work - why is there no VGA mode option at boot time like (dare I say it) Windows. Why does it load with VGA drivers it knows wont work (and if it does not know, why does it not know, Windows does). I have tried the live CD on a laptop (old ATI mobile graphics) and a PC with NVidia 6800 both give me black screens with a mouse pointer. Earlier versions of Ubuntu give me various results from tiny images multiple times to psycodelic stripes. The laptop runs WinXP fine, and Win7 in VGA mode. The PC runs WinXP and Win7 perfectly with Aero (incidentally Win7 is faster). I am a Windows programmer/customer support technician with 22 years of PC experience (started as a hardware technician) all of it enduser facing so know their capabilities (or lack of). I keep trying to dabble in Linux but dont get very far in the little time I have (family) so I dont have hours of spare time to solve problems that should not exist). I know I can google and can find various commandline ways to force other drivers on (but only after I have installed it - and the live CD is meant to be a trial), what hope is there for the novice you are trying to encourage. It seems from the many blogs and forums my experiences are far from rare. Maybe I am missing some startup option but Ubuntu has done its best to hide them. The funny little icon at the bottom meaning to press a key to get some startup options, and noapci, nomodeset, etc are of course terms that even the most novice of users would understand arent they! Maybe if you have the latest dogs bo**ocks hardware Ubuntu will work (I and most of the people I know dont, especially not our business users) but Linux is advertised as being better than Windows because it is able to run on older and less able hardware, however I cant even get it to run on Harware that is more than able to run Windows 7. I have never yet failed to get a picture when installing Windows - any version, any PC of minimum spec for the version. It may only be 640*480 4 colour but at least I can see to sort it out, with Ubuntu you're truely in the dark. My years of enduser experience tells me that the CD will of hit the bottom of the bin before Windows has got back to the desktop, for people who fail to see a working (even if limited) desktop when trying the live CD. Tell me I am doing it all wrong and simple by doing it will work on anything. Remember Ubuntu is aimed at the masses who have little computer experience. I know lots of people who could install any version of Windows and end up with a working desktop (maybe not optimum but working). Very few of those people could solve this one, and would not even install Ubuntu if the Live CD didnt work. -- End of Quotes I have now tried the live CD on a Phenom X2 PC with integrated AMD 785G graphics and I did get to the desktop, so I installed. However after the successful install when I restarted the monitor just showed out of range and that was that. This is a current chipset, not an old machine. I then tried the live CD on a NEC Powermate PC with SIS integrated graphics and just get out of range on the monitor. This gives a 4 out of 4 failure rate. Why does Ubuntu try the be clever and set some weird video mode - what wrong with 1024*768 16bit colour that all these machines can run. Or if it insists on doing this why is there no boot option to force VGA mode like Windows for times when things go wrong. In view of the amount of posts regarding problems installing and getting working, and with more than 90% of solutions requiring the commandline and editing files (with vi they have no chance!) Ubuntu and Linux will never reach the masses. Also remember only very few will seek an answer, most will bin and forget. I am not trolling here, I keep telling my bosses that any development changes with our software (small commercial EPOS systems) must keep the door open to produce a Linux version in the future, but I am beginning to think that Linux will never be ready for the masses. I would like other peoples
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Ubuntu/Linux is still not an OS for the masses - discuss
Melv, On Wed, 2010-10-13 at 10:28 +0100, Melv Bailey wrote: This has caused me a problem since 8.04 (7.10 is the last version I have run sort of successfully without having to jump through VGA driver hoops but I did have to jump through wireless drivers hoops and didnt solve them). I am sorry you are having so much difficulty with video on Ubuntu. Maybe if you have the latest dogs bo**ocks hardware Ubuntu will work Actually, the opposite is true. I've found newer hardware to be the biggest issue, both the latest video chipsets (I'm looking at you, nVidia) and wireless (and you too, Broadcom). When I purchase new hardware, I always insist on Intel video and Intel wireless. Intel doesn't pump the polygons the way nVidia does, but it always works with Xorg. ATI is getting better, but with the latest Ubuntu releases I've had to disable kernel mode setting to make video stable: nVidia is just a huge pain. That's not Linux's fault. No one expects Windows to work without installing drivers, but they seem to expect this of Linux. nVidia has long resisted developing an open source driver, and the closed-source one isn't often up to speed with the latest Xorg. As for disabling kernel mode setting, give it a go. It might help your issues: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/X/KernelModeSetting Regards, Tyler -- The paradox of dictating democracy, of enforcing freedom, of extorting emancipation. -- Niall Ferguson, Colossus: The Price of America's Empire (2004) -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Ubuntu/Linux is still not an OS for the masses - discuss
What bug numbers have you filed for these issues? Alan. -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Ubuntu/Linux is still not an OS for the masses - discuss
Hi Melv, On 13 October 2010 10:28, Melv Bailey melvbai...@googlemail.com wrote: Sorry if this seems a bit of a rant but there is now another new version Of Ubuntu that STILL does not address the fundamentals of running on a range of hardware that is fine for Windows. If we're talking about the 'masses' like my mum (never used a computer before 6 months ago) then I think you're missing one significant point. Normal users don't install their operating system. This holds true for Windows, OSX and Linux. Windows XP Vista wont install on my Toshiba laptop, neither will OSX. Ubuntu does and everything works. But the fact is that it came with Windows pre-installed with all drivers built in. if computers came with Ubuntu pre-installed then the whole basis of your argument is moot, because the drivers would be pre-installed by the supplier. The fact is though that right now there are few manufacturers making machines with Ubuntu pre-installed, so people do have to do the install. However I believe you should be comparing Oranges and Oranges. If my mum bought a blank computer and wanted windows, she wouldn't install it herself, she'd ask a computer expert (me) to do it for her. Same goes for Ubuntu. Al. -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Ubuntu/Linux is still not an OS for the masses - discuss
This is precisely why we have Launchpad, both the bug tracker and the answers tracker. The Ubuntu documentation (both in the OS and online) has workarounds, known issues, and failing that can point you to an IRC channel #ubuntu - people there are usually very helpful. I totally understand though, as when things like that happen it really p*?ses me off too, but there is always a solution. OEMs will always make sure their hardware is supported in whatever is preinstalled i.e. Dell, but you must remember that not all manufacturers support linux. There will always be problems, it's a known fact that Microsoft are still producing bloated s...@*t after 30 years. You could argue that it always installs fine and works, but what then? Antivirus? Anti-spyware? Anti-malware? Firewall? Defrag? The problems don't stop there... Ubuntu is about 4-5 years old and nearly at the Windows point with support and usability, but unless manufacturers support linux fully, sadly there will always be some shortcomings. -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Ubuntu/Linux is still not an OS for the masses - discuss
I think the point of any Linux desktop distro is not that everything will work perfectly with every combination of hardware available but to work with most hardware. The issue with computer users is not that they can't solve problems or get a particular setup working how they would like, its that they won't try. We have become too happy to rely on others to do all our thinking. I too have come across problems with Graphic and Wifi cards yet I appreciate the time and effort people have put in to create a wonderful free product or to assist fools like me in forums. One day I hope that my mucking about might be able to assist the wider community. I'm excited that broad comm has released an open source driver, and when I have time I will be swearing at some of my older laptops as I try to make them work on Wifi with Ubuntu and the new driver. As for the problem with the NVidia cards, install the driver :) I am lucky (not that the wife would agree) that I have vast amounts of Graphics cards laying about, so if I do bump up against a problem I will swap out until I find a card that works and use that instead. Failing that I will install FreeNX and just connect remotely and debug/install from a different machine. Obviously using the CD to check if your hardware setup will work is great. Its a shame you can't do that with Windows... (someone is bound to tell me I'm wrong about that). I have spent less time chasing down bugs and fixing incompatibles under Ubuntu then I did under XP (or 3.11). Ubuntu has pushed Linux into the general public view and is almost ready to be a solution for all. If my Mum/Dad/Wife/Grandparents can get to grips with it then I'm confidant that one day it will give Microsoft/Apple some great competition. Chris Unix Support/Linux Liker/Windows Acceptor -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Ubuntu/Linux is still not an OS for the masses - discuss
Thanks for replys I want to use Linux. I might use Windows, I might work with Windows, I have hated Windows since version 3 (I was there, it was good for its time), I have to admit I think they have finally got close with 7. I dont like Microsoft as a company and its actions, but I have to feed my family so I deal with it. Whilst this post might seem like I am anti Linux I am quite the opposite I am anti Windows and really want to use Linux. I have personally being trying to use Ubuntu since 7.04 but I don't have the time to faff to get a working machine when I can install XP or 7 fully loaded with drivers on virtually any machine in 3 hours or less. Maybe I wasn't clear about my points about the live CD trial. Tyler Windows does work without loading drivers. I have never yet had a PC that didnt give me a screen after installing Windows, as I said it might be 640*480 4 colour but at least I can work from there. Ubuntu gives me a blank screen, either out of range of the monitor, with only a mouse pointer or in the case of previous versions psychedelic dots and stripes. This means going to the commandline to install drivers - that just lost the majority of your audience. How does the end user with a live CD in his hand disable kernel mode settings. Al, Do you not hand out live CDs at various events, if they give the trier a black screen then they WILL end up in the bin. Whilst the masses might not install, a live cd is meant for the masses to try, is it not? As a business we have to supply varying hardware, we cant even buy the same hardware we could 6 months ago. We can get most PCs fully setup ready to ship/deliver including Windows OS install in half a day, There's no way that could be true of Ubuntu, so it would not be economic to supply even if the OS was free. Alan, I'm not a PC novice but I am a Linux novice. Not investigated how to log bugs yet, I can find out and might, but the average enduser wont. If your Mum bought a blank PC she would ask someone who knew something about computers to install it, the are many time more people who could install Windows to get a working (maybe not optimum) PC, than could get Ubuntu working. My 10 year old son could get a working PC with XP or 7 and he's never done it before or been show how to do it, no way would he get Ubuntu working. Roy Your point about the security issues in Windows are why I would like to move away for it, personally and in business but its not feasible at the moment. But my point is none of those solutions will work for the live CD, you have to take the plunge and install then delve into commandline, by which time you have potentialy trashed you PC. The point of the live CD is so you dont have to trash your PC. Chris I am not asking for everything to work perfectly I am asking for a visible desktop I can start from. How do I install the NVidia driver on the live CD, and how do I install the driver on my Phenom which I did a HDD install on but get out of range video after the restart. Sorry, I know the answer to the second but the average enduser doesnt (commandline and vi!). I used the cd to see if my hardware will work and 3 out of 4 dont, the 4th did until I installed it then it didn't. This is on a 6 year old laptop to a 6 month old Phenom II. I have access to many varied PCs so if I have time (whats that) will try a few more. I suppose my point is from where i am standing Ubuntu is as difficult to get working now as it was over 3 years ago. I can find answers and have had working(ish) copies of Ubuntu, I just cant afford the time is takes to get there. Mel -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Ubuntu/Linux is still not an OS for the masses - discuss
On 13/10/10 11:49, chris cundy wrote: I think the point of any Linux desktop distro is not that everything will work perfectly with every combination of hardware available but to work with most hardware. The issue with computer users is not that they can't solve problems or get a particular setup working how they would like, its that they won't try. We have become too happy to rely on others to do all our thinking. I too have come across problems with Graphic and Wifi cards yet I appreciate the time and effort people have put in to create a wonderful free product or to assist fools like me in forums. One day I hope that my mucking about might be able to assist the wider community. I'm excited that broad comm has released an open source driver, and when I have time I will be swearing at some of my older laptops as I try to make them work on Wifi with Ubuntu and the new driver. As for the problem with the NVidia cards, install the driver :) I am lucky (not that the wife would agree) that I have vast amounts of Graphics cards laying about, so if I do bump up against a problem I will swap out until I find a card that works and use that instead. Failing that I will install FreeNX and just connect remotely and debug/install from a different machine. Obviously using the CD to check if your hardware setup will work is great. Its a shame you can't do that with Windows... (someone is bound to tell me I'm wrong about that). I have spent less time chasing down bugs and fixing incompatibles under Ubuntu then I did under XP (or 3.11). Ubuntu has pushed Linux into the general public view and is almost ready to be a solution for all. If my Mum/Dad/Wife/Grandparents can get to grips with it then I'm confidant that one day it will give Microsoft/Apple some great competition. Chris Unix Support/Linux Liker/Windows Acceptor This is what I find unacceptable with Ubuntu, the fact that those in the know, always say, we get fed of people not trying. Its not about not trying, this guy has just said how he has tried, and cant get his Ubuntu to work. Those who know, always seem to be those that stand there and say Ubuntu is easy, easier than windows. If it was easy, and easier than windows, why did so many people, when the big drive a few years back to to have Ubuntu preinstalled, take their computers back. I know in places like Dixons and Curries' which is where I bought my Netbook, the guys behind the counter told me they got most of them back, because people couldnt even get their internet connection to work, showds that was a waste of time. So saying, preinstalled Ubuntu would make a difference, I think you'll find those that did sell preinstalled, would tell you different. I know my experiences tell me as somebody who isnt a programmer and who basically self taught, say it isnt easy, and, help, well, that is another matter. There is so much and so many different things to look for when you have Ubuntu, that its confusing to say the least. Windows as much as I hate it, is easier to set up than Ubuntu. Ubuntu, will start out of the box, and you might be able to surf the net, but as far as graphics are concerned, it doesnt tell you that you have to spend hours installing extras, not just a few things, but dozens of things, to get the graphics working, and even then it doesnt always work. So to say, its easier than windows, and its the users fault, I think that is not a good thing to put over. Sorry. I have said this myself before, it wont be program for masses. John -- Ubuntu User #30817 -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Ubuntu/Linux is still not an OS for the masses - discuss
Hi Mel, Like yourself i'm new to the world of Linux having been in Microsoft Support since I left school. Unlike you I've never had the problem you describe but I have had instances on my old PC (NVidia 6600GT PCI-E card) with the Live CD's not booting properly or hanging on the boot up logo. I found downloading the alternate CD with the text based installer proved more fruitful and may allow you to be more specific with the command line switches that are loaded, maybe to load just a standard VGA driver instead of trying to load a compatibly NVidia one. Just a thought, I'm probably not the best placed to comment but as a newbie to Linux I thought I'd offer my 2 pence. I don't think the masses (at this point in time) would be installing Linux off their own back, or certainly not what I would consider as the masses, but if they did I agree they might be turned away but the sheer power of Linux and its need sometimes to be effectively be a geek to understand stuff. I agree the Live CD should be fairly point and click with lots of stable drivers to cater for all hardware but the way I look at it, the leaps and bounds Ubuntu is making, considering its free is enormous and maybe one day it'll have front end gui that allows even the most computer iliterate to operate it and install drivers etc, but for now its horses for courses in my opinion and we all need to feed our experiences back into the pot as it were to make sure these issues get ironed out. Afterall, we are downloading something that Microsoft would charge an arm and a leg for. Paul. - Original Message - From: UK Ubuntu Talk To: Cc: Sent:Wed, 13 Oct 2010 12:03:25 +0100 Subject:Re: [ubuntu-uk] Ubuntu/Linux is still not an OS for the masses - discuss Thanks for replys I want to use Linux. I might use Windows, I might work with Windows, I have hated Windows since version 3 (I was there, it was good for its time), I have to admit I think they have finally got close with 7. I dont like Microsoft as a company and its actions, but I have to feed my family so I deal with it. Whilst this post might seem like I am anti Linux I am quite the opposite I am anti Windows and really want to use Linux. I have personally being trying to use Ubuntu since 7.04 but I don't have the time to faff to get a working machine when I can install XP or 7 fully loaded with drivers on virtually any machine in 3 hours or less. Maybe I wasn't clear about my points about the live CD trial. Tyler Windows does work without loading drivers. I have never yet had a PC that didnt give me a screen after installing Windows, as I said it might be 640*480 4 colour but at least I can work from there. Ubuntu gives me a blank screen, either out of range of the monitor, with only a mouse pointer or in the case of previous versions psychedelic dots and stripes. This means going to the commandline to install drivers - that just lost the majority of your audience. How does the end user with a live CD in his hand disable kernel mode settings. Al, Do you not hand out live CDs at various events, if they give the trier a black screen then they WILL end up in the bin. Whilst the masses might not install, a live cd is meant for the masses to try, is it not? As a business we have to supply varying hardware, we cant even buy the same hardware we could 6 months ago. We can get most PCs fully setup ready to ship/deliver including Windows OS install in half a day, There's no way that could be true of Ubuntu, so it would not be economic to supply even if the OS was free. Alan, I'm not a PC novice but I am a Linux novice. Not investigated how to log bugs yet, I can find out and might, but the average enduser wont. If your Mum bought a blank PC she would ask someone who knew something about computers to install it, the are many time more people who could install Windows to get a working (maybe not optimum) PC, than could get Ubuntu working. My 10 year old son could get a working PC with XP or 7 and he's never done it before or been show how to do it, no way would he get Ubuntu working. Roy Your point about the security issues in Windows are why I would like to move away for it, personally and in business but its not feasible at the moment. But my point is none of those solutions will work for the live CD, you have to take the plunge and install then delve into commandline, by which time you have potentialy trashed you PC. The point of the live CD is so you dont have to trash your PC. Chris I am not asking for everything to work perfectly I am asking for a visible desktop I can start from. How do I install the NVidia driver on the live CD, and how do I install the driver on my Phenom which I did a HDD install on but get out of range video after the restart. Sorry, I know the answer to the second but the average enduser doesnt (commandline and vi!). I used the cd to see if my hardware will work and 3
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Ubuntu/Linux is still not an OS for the masses - discuss
I think your best bet to get support on these machines is to: 1. Search http://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu for the graphics cards you have in each machine, there may be a known problem with them, or they may have a workaround. It may even be a really simple fix :) 2. If there is nothing relevant to your issue, create an account, file a bug for each one, and from the machine you can run apport-collect -p linux BUGNUMBER so it can upload all the hardware info we would need to look into the problem - obviously run the command from the machine with the problem and change BUGNUMBER for the bug number Launchpad gives you for the report for that machine (bit of a mouthful) I would've said use ubuntu-bug to file it but that needs access to firefox, since the commandline web browser doesn't like the LP website, and without X working it wouldn't be feasible. Unless someone reports info like this to us, there isn't a lot we can do to fix it. Canonical doesn't have access to a wide range of machines sadly. -- Roy Jamison (xteejx) Ubuntu Bug Squad Ubuntu Bug Control www.ubuntu.com -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Ubuntu/Linux is still not an OS for the masses - discuss
On 13/10/10 10:48, Alan Pope wrote: The fact is though that right now there are few manufacturers making machines with Ubuntu pre-installed, so people do have to do the install. However I believe you should be comparing Oranges and Oranges. If my mum bought a blank computer and wanted windows, she wouldn't install it herself, she'd ask a computer expert (me) to do it for her. Same goes for Ubuntu. I remember back in the old days I had nightmares trying to reinstall Windows on my laptop - I ended up keeping a folder of the relevant setup files to hand so I could get various bits of it working. The only thing I've had to do like that is mess with Samsung printer drivers. As my personal motto is I hate printers big small, black and white, big and small. They are hateful and horrible. I don't generally go near them. :P -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Ubuntu/Linux is still not an OS for the masses - discuss
Dunno about your 10 year old son, but my 9 year old daughter installed Ubuntu on the playroom computer the other day. It just worked. Ubuntu does have failsafe X which should cut in with a working low graphics mode, if that does not happen then it is a bug and you would be improving ubuntu by filing a bug on launchpad with details of your configuration so that the next person trying to install Ubuntu on whatever kit you have has a smoother ride. -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Ubuntu/Linux is still not an OS for the masses - discuss
On 13 October 2010 12:08, John Matthews jake...@sky.com wrote: Those who know, always seem to be those that stand there and say Ubuntu is easy, easier than windows. It's easy if you know what you're doing. Same as rocket science or brain surgery. It's all about perspective. Many people who say 'ubuntu is easy' are almost always people who have had the pain of administering Windows systems for years and come to Ubuntu with that baggage. They probably find that Ubuntu fits their brain better and they feel at home with the way stuff works. If it was easy, and easier than windows, why did so many people, when the big drive a few years back to to have Ubuntu preinstalled, take their computers back. They didn't. http://blog.laptopmag.com/one-third-of-dell-inspiron-mini-9s-sold-run-linux Dell attributes part of the Linux growth to competitive pricing on the Ubuntu SKUs. “When you look at the sweet spot for this category it is price sensitivity, and Linux enabled us to offer a lower price entry point,” added Dell senior product manager John New. According to Dell, the the return rate of Ubuntu running Mini 9s are comparable to the XP rate, which we are told is “very low.” “Our focus has been making sure that before the order is taken is that the customer knows what he is getting,” New added. I know in places like Dixons and Curries' which is where I bought my Netbook, the guys behind the counter told me they got most of them back, because people couldnt even get their internet connection to work, showds that was a waste of time. So saying, preinstalled Ubuntu would make a difference, I think you'll find those that did sell preinstalled, would tell you different. I wouldn't use Dixons / Currys as a shining example of IT Knowledge in the retail space. The vast majority of them are (in my personal opinion) clueless. They read the card next to the device they're selling, just a few seconds before the customer does, and then read it out. They're not trained in Linux/Ubuntu so they don't have a clue about it, spreading misinformation along the way. It also doesn't help that Microsoft actually provide materials to stores which dismisses Linux. http://news.cnet.com/8301-13846_3-10346669-62.html I know my experiences tell me as somebody who isnt a programmer and who basically self taught, say it isnt easy, and, help, well, that is another matter. There is so much and so many different things to look for when you have Ubuntu, that its confusing to say the least. So is Windows. It's just that most people are used to Windows because it's been around a long time and people have it pre-installed on their computer when it comes out of the gate. Windows as much as I hate it, is easier to set up than Ubuntu. I disagree. I recently installed Windows XP on my desktop computer for some light gaming. It took the best part of a day to get the OS and all the necessary patches and drivers located and installed. Some of the drivers are quite hard to find. The printer driver alone was hundreds of megs download. Even if I used the most up to date Windows 7 DVD it would still require significant pain to setup. With Ubuntu I put the CD in, ran the installer and all the updates and software I needed was done in an hour and two reboots. So to say, its easier than windows, and its the users fault, I think that is not a good thing to put over. Sorry. I have said this myself before, it wont be program for masses. I have had very few calls from my mum asking for help with her Ubuntu system. She uses the same kinds of apps most people do. Al. -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Ubuntu/Linux is still not an OS for the masses - discuss
Your missing the point, the live CD is the way to anyone other than the computer experts, and if it does not work it ends up in the bin, together with the concept of Linux. Why can it not start in a basic video mode, or at least have an option to, so the user can have a second attempt at booting it in a mode that is guaranteed to work. Now IT does what IT wants, IT doesnt work, IT hits the bin. Forget giving them the highest resolution and best 3D accelerated video it can, just give them one they can see and an option to change the screen resolution when it has loaded. Remember if the live CD fails to deliver a desktop they WILL NOT install. I'm not looking for answers to my problems directly, I am trying to point out that every failure of a live CD is not just a user who wont install Ubuntu at that time, it is has an negative impact on Linux in general, as did the failure of the preinstalled netbooks. Someone needs to take a business type view of this. If we (as a business) have a problem, yes we sort it but that invariably cost money, but we also look a why we had the problem so we can try and prevent it happening again. If there is a problem in Ubuntu then people offer solutions but no one seem to be taking the wider view as to why they happen. If the live CD does not work because it is trying to be too clever - simplfy it, dont say but if you do this, then that, then this, it will work. If we did that in business we would go bust in no time. If this was a one off with 10.10 I might not feel so strongly about this, but its always been like this, and its not doing Linux any favours. John I agree, dont just blame the user. I have spent 22 year with PC users and there are a lot incompetants but there is an awful lot of competants as well. You can not give them all substandard software then blame them all for it not working. I know there not paying for it but dont blame them for its shortcommings. What do you expect - its free will not win Linux any friends. Paul the alternate cd with commandline switch is not for your average end user trying to try Linux out. Roy when I get chance I will log the bugs, assuming the internet connection is working when I boot the live CD, I haven't got a screen to tell! and to Tim you may have had to mess with Window printer drivers but you could at least see the screen. As I said above I am not looking for answers to my problem I am trying to point out that Ubuntu has a big problem which no one seems to have addressed, and it goes back years. Mel -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Ubuntu/Linux is still not an OS for the masses - discuss
I have had very few calls from my mum asking for help with her Ubuntu system. She uses the same kinds of apps most people do. I can vouch for that. My Farther-in-law recently bought a new pc, without asking me, because he 'simply must have windows'. Last time I saw him he was complaining because the old Ubuntu box I'd given him was much faster and easier to use. And he's still confused as hell over the multitude of free upgrade disks that came with the machine and so is still using MS Works -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Ubuntu/Linux is still not an OS for the masses - discuss
Just seen Alan Bell's post and he has mentioned something no one else has, there is meant to be a failsafe X in low res mode. I didnt know that and have not in 4 years seen that mentioned before. Has anyone else ever seen Ubuntu boot in this failsafe mode? Yes. I've had issues in the past with my Nvidia card and xorg failing and it's given me the option to boot into failsafe mode or try to repair xorg. -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Ubuntu/Linux is still not an OS for the masses - discuss
I have. With previous Live CD's I've had a menu instead of it just booting straight in which has allowed me to select the resolution and toggle VGA mode with just an F key pressed. Granted I had to initiate this myself but it did work. 10.04 and 10.10 seem to skip this boot screen in my experience though, although there may be a way of toggling it. I understand what you are saying about the masses not wanting to have to faff with command lines etc but I dont think most average users are even going to have heard of Linux let alone try to install it. However my 19yo sister recently installed Ubuntu 10.10 Netbook remix on her Acer Netbook with no issues at all. I think the problems you are having are probably fairly rare, I've installed Ubuntu/Kubuntu/SuSe/Mandriva/Linuxmint on at least 10 different physical PC's plus in VM's as well and never experienced the problem you have. I have however had Windows many times over the years crash after installing and do nothing but blue screen of death, indeed my recent decision for moving permanently to Ubuntu 10.10 was due to Microsoft updates pulling down a new Intel GFX driver and causing the PC to hang on every boot, even a system restore didnt work. I think most average users who stick in an Ubuntu Live CD will probably be able to install it without the issues you describe. I'm not saying youre lying or anything of that sort, but I think you should try and install it on other machines and judge your experience based on more than just this one machine. (Unless I've misread and you have this same issue on multiple systems). Paul. - Original Message - From: UK Ubuntu Talk To: Cc: Sent:Wed, 13 Oct 2010 13:57:53 +0100 Subject:Re: [ubuntu-uk] Ubuntu/Linux is still not an OS for the masses - discuss Just seen Alan Bell's post and he has mentioned something no one else has, there is meant to be a failsafe X in low res mode. I didnt know that and have not in 4 years seen that mentioned before. Has anyone else ever seen Ubuntu boot in this failsafe mode? What is meant to trigger this mode? If it just worked then my son could do it but 4 out of 4 failures meant for me it didnt just work. -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com [1] https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk [2] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/ [3] Links: -- [1] mailto:ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com [2] https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk [3] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/ -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Ubuntu/Linux is still not an OS for the masses - discuss
On 13/10/10 13:49, Alan Pope wrote: On 13 October 2010 12:08, John Matthewsjake...@sky.com wrote: Those who know, always seem to be those that stand there and say Ubuntu is easy, easier than windows. It's easy if you know what you're doing. Same as rocket science or brain surgery. It's all about perspective. Many people who say 'ubuntu is easy' are almost always people who have had the pain of administering Windows systems for years and come to Ubuntu with that baggage. They probably find that Ubuntu fits their brain better and they feel at home with the way stuff works. But that is what I mean, you have years of experience, and to you its second nature. I have spent almost 4 years struggling to keep my Ubuntu working. I never had problems like this on windows, I was even able to help other people with windows problems. If it was easy, and easier than windows, why did so many people, when the big drive a few years back to to have Ubuntu preinstalled, take their computers back. They didn't. http://blog.laptopmag.com/one-third-of-dell-inspiron-mini-9s-sold-run-linux Dell attributes part of the Linux growth to competitive pricing on the Ubuntu SKUs. “When you look at the sweet spot for this category it is price sensitivity, and Linux enabled us to offer a lower price entry point,” added Dell senior product manager John New. According to Dell, the the return rate of Ubuntu running Mini 9s are comparable to the XP rate, which we are told is “very low.” “Our focus has been making sure that before the order is taken is that the customer knows what he is getting,” New added. I know in places like Dixons and Curries' which is where I bought my Netbook, the guys behind the counter told me they got most of them back, because people couldnt even get their internet connection to work, showds that was a waste of time. So saying, preinstalled Ubuntu would make a difference, I think you'll find those that did sell preinstalled, would tell you different. Actually they did, regardless of how crap people are in those shops, netbooks were being sold there with Linux preinstalled in them, I got one. The first thing the guy said to me when I asked, is you do know this is Linux, and we have gotten almost all of these machines back, because people cant get them to work they wont connect to their internet. That isnt Dell. Regardless of how much the shop assistance know, is not the point. I wouldn't use Dixons / Currys as a shining example of IT Knowledge in the retail space. The vast majority of them are (in my personal opinion) clueless. They read the card next to the device they're selling, just a few seconds before the customer does, and then read it out. They're not trained in Linux/Ubuntu so they don't have a clue about it, spreading misinformation along the way. It also doesn't help that Microsoft actually provide materials to stores which dismisses Linux. http://news.cnet.com/8301-13846_3-10346669-62.html I know my experiences tell me as somebody who isnt a programmer and who basically self taught, say it isnt easy, and, help, well, that is another matter. There is so much and so many different things to look for when you have Ubuntu, that its confusing to say the least. So is Windows. It's just that most people are used to Windows because it's been around a long time and people have it pre-installed on their computer when it comes out of the gate. But at least, if there is a problem, somebody is there to help. You know exactly what I mean there. Windows as much as I hate it, is easier to set up than Ubuntu. I disagree. I recently installed Windows XP on my desktop computer for some light gaming. It took the best part of a day to get the OS and all the necessary patches and drivers located and installed. Some of the drivers are quite hard to find. The printer driver alone was hundreds of megs download. Even if I used the most up to date Windows 7 DVD it would still require significant pain to setup. With Ubuntu I put the CD in, ran the installer and all the updates and software I needed was done in an hour and two reboots. That is you, you have the knowledge to deal with a problem, so it is going to be easy for you, your not really a good example of somebody who is new to Ubuntu. So to say, its easier than windows, and its the users fault, I think that is not a good thing to put over. Sorry. I have said this myself before, it wont be program for masses. I have had very few calls from my mum asking for help with her Ubuntu system. She uses the same kinds of apps most people do. Al. Sorry, but from somebody who has had to struggle since I installed this, and still cannot get answers to problems I posted about years ago, such as my network shares, video not working, and other minor things, I still say sorry but that is wrong. John. -- Ubuntu User #30817 -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Ubuntu/Linux is still not an OS for the masses - discuss
No one is addressing my point of the live CD. Al I dont doubt that once Ubuntu is working it may be less problem to maintain, and less problem to use, but if you have to edit files at the commandline to get there (read the answers to all the forum posts, this is required for a lot of solutions - I'm not imagining it) you cant do that on a live CD. Paul, Is it not the live CD that is given out at events/public places trying to get to the masses. I'm taking about the live CD, not having installed it,had it working then the driver getting stuffed up. Cant repair Xorg on a live cd. I've run the live cd on 4 differnet PCs, 3 gave me no usable desktop, one did. I installed on the one that did and after the restart the installed copy didn't give me a usable desktop. John I agree some problems never get answers, but until it is accept there are problems they never will. Clearly the regulars on here (I have been following this list for a while) will defend Ubuntu to the hilt, but if you want its use to expand someone need to accept there is a problem. I agree people want something to work first time, but if it doesnt then it has to be easy to fix, they are not Linux experts like you. If you still are giving live CDs out to the public then your wasting your time, first impression mean so much, and a bad one can set bad opinions for a long time. I will probably get it to work on one of my PCs eventually when I can trawl the bug lists and forums for a solution, but my Win 7 on an Athlon XP2500+ and Nvidia 6800 that took less than an hour to setup is working it will have to wait for some free time, but I am certain the cost of the time taken to resolve it will exceed the cost of Win 7. All I wanted was to see Ubuntu 10.10 working on a PC. Mel -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Ubuntu/Linux is still not an OS for the masses - discuss
Mel, I don’t know the answer to that, I assume yes its given out to the masses at these events but lets be realistic, who goes to a Linux event? Average everyday users? I kind of doubt it and I've never seen these CD's being given out publicly in random places. But on the subject of the Live CD, I'm no Linux expert as I've stated, all my knowledge and experience is Windows based but with my limited amount of Ubuntu experience going back to version 8.10. I have NEVER experienced a problem booting from a Live CD on any machine of any kind, be it old/new or laptop/desktop. As stated I've even booted it in a VM and its always been fine. If someone came to me with a copy of Windows 7 and told me it wouldn’t boot to the install screen on 3 different machines, and on a fourth it booted, installed but then wouldn’t boot, I'd be telling them to get another copy of the CD. You’ve clearly used more than 1 CD as you've mentioned several versions but if this issue was that common, the forums would be flooded with people unable to even boot the Live CD, and the fact is (as far as I'm aware) this is not the case. I'm not suggesting its user error on your part or anything like that but I have, and many of my friends and work colleagues have booted a whole plethora of hardware up, from Linux Live CD's with no problems at allsure they have had other issues sometimes but your experiences make it sound like the OS has major flaws, and from what I can see from my own limited experience over the last few years, theres nothing to justify that in my eyes I cant say what is causing your issue, but I just don’t agree that there is a fundamental flaw in these Live CD's which is a basic as a video driver issue. If this were any other OS the forums would awash with people demanding Microsoft or Apple etc do something about it. The lack of this suggests, the majority of people (some of which will be the masses) are fine and have no problems booting off the Live CD. Paul. - Original Message - From: UK Ubuntu Talk To: Cc: Sent:Wed, 13 Oct 2010 15:14:11 +0100 Subject:Re: [ubuntu-uk] Ubuntu/Linux is still not an OS for the masses - discuss No one is addressing my point of the live CD. Al I dont doubt that once Ubuntu is working it may be less problem to maintain, and less problem to use, but if you have to edit files at the commandline to get there (read the answers to all the forum posts, this is required for a lot of solutions - I'm not imagining it) you cant do that on a live CD. Paul, Is it not the live CD that is given out at events/public places trying to get to the masses. I'm taking about the live CD, not having installed it,had it working then the driver getting stuffed up. Cant repair Xorg on a live cd. I've run the live cd on 4 differnet PCs, 3 gave me no usable desktop, one did. I installed on the one that did and after the restart the installed copy didn't give me a usable desktop. John I agree some problems never get answers, but until it is accept there are problems they never will. Clearly the regulars on here (I have been following this list for a while) will defend Ubuntu to the hilt, but if you want its use to expand someone need to accept there is a problem. I agree people want something to work first time, but if it doesnt then it has to be easy to fix, they are not Linux experts like you. If you still are giving live CDs out to the public then your wasting your time, first impression mean so much, and a bad one can set bad opinions for a long time. I will probably get it to work on one of my PCs eventually when I can trawl the bug lists and forums for a solution, but my Win 7 on an Athlon XP2500+ and Nvidia 6800 that took less than an hour to setup is working it will have to wait for some free time, but I am certain the cost of the time taken to resolve it will exceed the cost of Win 7. All I wanted was to see Ubuntu 10.10 working on a PC. Mel -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com [1] https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk [2] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/ [3] Links: -- [1] mailto:ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com [2] https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk [3] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/ -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Ubuntu/Linux is still not an OS for the masses - discuss
Hi Melv, On Wed, 2010-10-13 at 15:14 +0100, Melv Bailey wrote: No one is addressing my point of the live CD. I'm wondering if this is because no-one else on this list (and note that I am referring to the list, not the world in general! ;) ) has experienced this issue. I accept that having a LiveCd that does not work on your exact hardware does not work, however what would be of use to me to help you trouble shoot this would be to know the following: 1) Have you tried any other Linux Distros (Redhat/Fedora/Debian/SuSE/Gentoo/Knoppix etc) on this hardware as part of a LiveCD? 2) Can you provide a complete list of the hardware in the system including the following: * RAM * DiskSpace * Graphics Card * Processor * Network Card(s) * Wireless Cards (WiFi and Bluetooth) * Sound Card If you can get another distro up and running, then let me know and I'll be happy to provide the relevant commands to provide the above information. I do have to say at this point however that my personal experience of the Live CD since 6.10 has always been positive, I've also had the live CD running without issue on an Intel-Based Mac with a NVidia Graphics card (although admittedly I've not tried 10.10, only 9.10 and 10.04) and having recently handed out nearly 100 live CDs of Ubuntu/Kubuntu at a software freedom event, I've not have any negative come back, in fact it's encouraged a number of people who would not have otherwise moved to Linux to give it a go. I'm happy to accept that this may be because people couldn't be bothered to raise the issues with the Linux User Group that were promoting the CDs, however my experience over the past three years has consistently been that anyone can install Ubuntu and use it. All I wanted was to see Ubuntu 10.10 working on a PC. And, with the greatest of respect, there are thousands of users out there everyday who are not technical (French Arondissment Staff, Mexican Government officals, US State Officials) who run Linux on a daily basis without issue on PCs that used to run Windows. My personal advice would be that if 10.10 doesn't work, install 10.04. 10.04 is a Long Term Release and will therefore almost always be more stable than 10.10. It's what I'm using at work and at home and I have no intention of upgrading to 10.10 until I am confident that I can work without interruption or issues. Apologies for the long post... :) Kind regards, Matt -- Matthew Macdonald-Wallace matt...@truthisfreedom.org.uk http://www.threedrunkensysadsonthe.net/ -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Ubuntu/Linux is still not an OS for the masses - discuss
On Wed, 2010-10-13 at 15:27 +0100, Paul Jones wrote: Mel, I don’t know the answer to that, I assume yes its given out to the masses at these events but lets be realistic, who goes to a Linux event? Average everyday users? I kind of doubt it and I've never seen these CD's being given out publicly in random places. You obviously weren't in Hereford for Software Freedom Day then! We handed out nearly 100 Ubuntu/Kubuntu CDs and a similar number of a custom open disc that had both Linux and Windows software on it to complete strangers who ranged from school teachers to retired engineers. We had a hugely positive response to it and Herefordshire has at least a dozen new Linux users as a result - any success rate greater than 5% is usually considered amazing in marketing! :) Cheers, M. -- Matthew Macdonald-Wallace matt...@truthisfreedom.org.uk http://www.threedrunkensysadsonthe.net/ -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Ubuntu/Linux is still not an OS for the masses - discuss
On 13 October 2010 13:46, Melv Bailey melvbai...@googlemail.com wrote: Your missing the point, the live CD is the way to anyone other than the computer experts, and if it does not work it ends up in the bin, together with the concept of Linux. Which is why you're getting encouraged to file bugs. Why can it not start in a basic video mode, or at least have an option to, so the user can have a second attempt at booting it in a mode that is guaranteed to work. There's two contending factors. a) Users want a working system b) Users want to see the all the new features without installing. Sometimes b) breaks a). We try to fix that, and when people let us know, we fix it. I'm not looking for answers to my problems directly, I am trying to point out that every failure of a live CD is not just a user who wont install Ubuntu at that time, it is has an negative impact on Linux in general, as did the failure of the preinstalled netbooks. Did netbooks fail or did Microsoft just start giving away the OS with them in order to compete? Someone needs to take a business type view of this. I think you're mistaken if you think Canonical don't see this as a business. If the live CD does not work because it is trying to be too clever - simplfy it, dont say but if you do this, then that, then this, it will work. If we did that in business we would go bust in no time. I think you think we deliberately make these CDs hobbled. We don't, we ship software and sometimes that software is flawed. when I get chance I will log the bugs, assuming the internet connection is working when I boot the live CD, I haven't got a screen to tell! You don't need an internet connection on the machine in question, but it helps. If you'd like assistance in filing bugs we can certainly help. Al. -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Ubuntu/Linux is still not an OS for the masses - discuss
On 13 October 2010 13:57, Melv Bailey melvbai...@googlemail.com wrote: Just seen Alan Bell's post and he has mentioned something no one else has, there is meant to be a failsafe X in low res mode. I didnt know that and have not in 4 years seen that mentioned before. Has anyone else ever seen Ubuntu boot in this failsafe mode? What is meant to trigger this mode? When X fails to start it falls back to failsafe mode. Al. -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Ubuntu/Linux is still not an OS for the masses - discuss
I thought I'd throw my tuppence worth in. Before I discovered Ubuntu, I had a few attempts at installing Linux. One was Mandrake (version 7, I think), and I had a couple of attempts at installing Debian and Redhat, all to no avail. I can't remember how I found out about Ubuntu (Dapper), but I found the Ship-it feature, ordered a CD (and received 3!). It worked on my laptop (Pentium M, ATI graphics card) and the desktop PC (AMD Athlon and S3 onboard) without any issues whatsoever. I found it a breath of fresh air when compared to Windows, especially with issues like wireless networking. Ever since I started using wireless with windows, I've had issues where it just refuses to connect to the network at all, and I still find these issues with my current Vista laptop, especially switching between wireless networks. Ubuntu just worked for me, and I have had no similar issues with subsequent releases. My time with Ubuntu hasn't exactly been hassle-free - I would say that most niggles occur when upgrading from one release to another (8.04 rings a bell), but a fresh install is never more than 20 minutes away, unlike Microsoft's offering. I would concede that there can still be issues with things like Flash, but someone who is completely new to Windows would not necessarily know to download the Flash plugin. With the interface, Ubuntu/Gnome makes a lot more sense than Windows. I have a friend who had limited computer experience. He had Windows for a while, but when it crashed and he couldn't find his installation media, someone provided a copy of Fedora and he has never looked back since. If a complete novice were to ask me to set up a computer for them, Windows wouldn't get a look in! And yes, I did try to convince my friend to switch to Ubuntu :) Gus -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Ubuntu/Linux is still not an OS for the masses - discuss
On 13 October 2010 14:54, John Matthews jake...@sky.com wrote: On 13/10/10 13:49, Alan Pope wrote: It's easy if you know what you're doing. Same as rocket science or brain surgery. It's all about perspective. Many people who say 'ubuntu is easy' are almost always people who have had the pain of administering Windows systems for years and come to Ubuntu with that baggage. They probably find that Ubuntu fits their brain better and they feel at home with the way stuff works. But that is what I mean, you have years of experience, and to you its second nature. I have spent almost 4 years struggling to keep my Ubuntu working. I never had problems like this on windows, I was even able to help other people with windows problems. You're missing my point, and illustrating it perfectly. People seem to have an expectation that you should be able to install Ubuntu and it works out of the box with zero effort, zero learning and no issues whatsoever. That expectation isn't levelled at any other OS, so why Ubuntu? You probably haven't had many Windows operating system upgrades over the years either. We've released 2 versions a year since 2004. I bought a Mac for the first time last year having never owned one. It was a steep learning curve learning OSX, but I didn't complain that it was broken. But at least, if there is a problem, somebody is there to help. You know exactly what I mean there. Yes, there is someone there to take your money, delete viruses and reinstall the OS. There's very little else they help with. Ask them how to do mail-merge with Microsoft Word and Microsoft Access and see how far you get. If you have a problem with Windows you get help from a Windows expert (in this case Dixons). If you have a problem with Ubuntu, you get help from an Ubuntu expert. How is this different? Windows as much as I hate it, is easier to set up than Ubuntu. I disagree. I recently installed Windows XP on my desktop computer for some light gaming. It took the best part of a day to get the OS and all the necessary patches and drivers located and installed. Some of the drivers are quite hard to find. The printer driver alone was hundreds of megs download. Even if I used the most up to date Windows 7 DVD it would still require significant pain to setup. With Ubuntu I put the CD in, ran the installer and all the updates and software I needed was done in an hour and two reboots. That is you, you have the knowledge to deal with a problem, so it is going to be easy for you, your not really a good example of somebody who is new to Ubuntu. You missed my point. My point was that it is not easy to install Windows, and I've been doing it for years. It's tedious, painful and time consuming. Ubuntu installed on the same machine in a fraction of the time with no problems. I have had very few calls from my mum asking for help with her Ubuntu system. She uses the same kinds of apps most people do. Sorry, but from somebody who has had to struggle since I installed this, and still cannot get answers to problems I posted about years ago, such as my network shares, video not working, and other minor things, I still say sorry but that is wrong. Please don't tell me my own experience is wrong. It's an indisputable fact that I have had less calls for help from my mum using Ubuntu than I have from my sister using XP. Al. -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Ubuntu/Linux is still not an OS for the masses - discuss
On 13/10/10 16:09, Alan Pope wrote: On 13 October 2010 14:54, John Matthewsjake...@sky.com wrote: On 13/10/10 13:49, Alan Pope wrote: It's easy if you know what you're doing. Same as rocket science or brain surgery. It's all about perspective. Many people who say 'ubuntu is easy' are almost always people who have had the pain of administering Windows systems for years and come to Ubuntu with that baggage. They probably find that Ubuntu fits their brain better and they feel at home with the way stuff works. But that is what I mean, you have years of experience, and to you its second nature. I have spent almost 4 years struggling to keep my Ubuntu working. I never had problems like this on windows, I was even able to help other people with windows problems. You're missing my point, and illustrating it perfectly. People seem to have an expectation that you should be able to install Ubuntu and it works out of the box with zero effort, zero learning and no issues whatsoever. That expectation isn't levelled at any other OS, so why Ubuntu? You probably haven't had many Windows operating system upgrades over the years either. We've released 2 versions a year since 2004. I bought a Mac for the first time last year having never owned one. It was a steep learning curve learning OSX, but I didn't complain that it was broken. But at least, if there is a problem, somebody is there to help. You know exactly what I mean there. Yes, there is someone there to take your money, delete viruses and reinstall the OS. There's very little else they help with. Ask them how to do mail-merge with Microsoft Word and Microsoft Access and see how far you get. If you have a problem with Windows you get help from a Windows expert (in this case Dixons). If you have a problem with Ubuntu, you get help from an Ubuntu expert. How is this different? Windows as much as I hate it, is easier to set up than Ubuntu. I disagree. I recently installed Windows XP on my desktop computer for some light gaming. It took the best part of a day to get the OS and all the necessary patches and drivers located and installed. Some of the drivers are quite hard to find. The printer driver alone was hundreds of megs download. Even if I used the most up to date Windows 7 DVD it would still require significant pain to setup. With Ubuntu I put the CD in, ran the installer and all the updates and software I needed was done in an hour and two reboots. That is you, you have the knowledge to deal with a problem, so it is going to be easy for you, your not really a good example of somebody who is new to Ubuntu. You missed my point. My point was that it is not easy to install Windows, and I've been doing it for years. It's tedious, painful and time consuming. Ubuntu installed on the same machine in a fraction of the time with no problems. I have had very few calls from my mum asking for help with her Ubuntu system. She uses the same kinds of apps most people do. Sorry, but from somebody who has had to struggle since I installed this, and still cannot get answers to problems I posted about years ago, such as my network shares, video not working, and other minor things, I still say sorry but that is wrong. Please don't tell me my own experience is wrong. It's an indisputable fact that I have had less calls for help from my mum using Ubuntu than I have from my sister using XP. Al. Yeh, but there you go, for you, its never a problem, so it shouldnt be a problem for anybody else. And as for getting help from Ubuntu, that isnt easy either, if it was, I still wouldnt have problems with my network shares and videos problems. I would be able to use my numbers at the side of the keyboard after asking for help. And I wouldnt be continuously reminded that you volunteer for help, and I shouldnt expect it. Which has been told be on quite a few occasions. So, you'll have to excuse me if I still say, I find windows easier, and most of the time, it work out of the box, far quicker than getting Ubuntu to work out of the box. That is coming form about 4 years of trying to get my Ubuntu to work properly. So sorry, its not about telling you your experience is wrong, its telling your my experience. And I wouldnt be told when trying to get help, buy a better computer. That isnt help. John. -- Ubuntu User #30817 -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Ubuntu/Linux is still not an OS for the masses - discuss
Well said MR Pope. There is a learning curve from windows 98 and windows 7~ just as there is changing from windows to mac and also windows / mac to linux. I think Ubuntu is much simpler to use because the majority of things will work out of the box but like Alan Pope said to expect something free like Ubuntu to work 100% out of the box is a little too much. The only problem I have really ever had with Ubuntu is getting the macbook isight camera working, and it is now! ;) On Wed, Oct 13, 2010 at 4:19 PM, John Matthews jake...@sky.com wrote: On 13/10/10 16:09, Alan Pope wrote: On 13 October 2010 14:54, John Matthewsjake...@sky.com wrote: On 13/10/10 13:49, Alan Pope wrote: It's easy if you know what you're doing. Same as rocket science or brain surgery. It's all about perspective. Many people who say 'ubuntu is easy' are almost always people who have had the pain of administering Windows systems for years and come to Ubuntu with that baggage. They probably find that Ubuntu fits their brain better and they feel at home with the way stuff works. But that is what I mean, you have years of experience, and to you its second nature. I have spent almost 4 years struggling to keep my Ubuntu working. I never had problems like this on windows, I was even able to help other people with windows problems. You're missing my point, and illustrating it perfectly. People seem to have an expectation that you should be able to install Ubuntu and it works out of the box with zero effort, zero learning and no issues whatsoever. That expectation isn't levelled at any other OS, so why Ubuntu? You probably haven't had many Windows operating system upgrades over the years either. We've released 2 versions a year since 2004. I bought a Mac for the first time last year having never owned one. It was a steep learning curve learning OSX, but I didn't complain that it was broken. But at least, if there is a problem, somebody is there to help. You know exactly what I mean there. Yes, there is someone there to take your money, delete viruses and reinstall the OS. There's very little else they help with. Ask them how to do mail-merge with Microsoft Word and Microsoft Access and see how far you get. If you have a problem with Windows you get help from a Windows expert (in this case Dixons). If you have a problem with Ubuntu, you get help from an Ubuntu expert. How is this different? Windows as much as I hate it, is easier to set up than Ubuntu. I disagree. I recently installed Windows XP on my desktop computer for some light gaming. It took the best part of a day to get the OS and all the necessary patches and drivers located and installed. Some of the drivers are quite hard to find. The printer driver alone was hundreds of megs download. Even if I used the most up to date Windows 7 DVD it would still require significant pain to setup. With Ubuntu I put the CD in, ran the installer and all the updates and software I needed was done in an hour and two reboots. That is you, you have the knowledge to deal with a problem, so it is going to be easy for you, your not really a good example of somebody who is new to Ubuntu. You missed my point. My point was that it is not easy to install Windows, and I've been doing it for years. It's tedious, painful and time consuming. Ubuntu installed on the same machine in a fraction of the time with no problems. I have had very few calls from my mum asking for help with her Ubuntu system. She uses the same kinds of apps most people do. Sorry, but from somebody who has had to struggle since I installed this, and still cannot get answers to problems I posted about years ago, such as my network shares, video not working, and other minor things, I still say sorry but that is wrong. Please don't tell me my own experience is wrong. It's an indisputable fact that I have had less calls for help from my mum using Ubuntu than I have from my sister using XP. Al. Yeh, but there you go, for you, its never a problem, so it shouldnt be a problem for anybody else. And as for getting help from Ubuntu, that isnt easy either, if it was, I still wouldnt have problems with my network shares and videos problems. I would be able to use my numbers at the side of the keyboard after asking for help. And I wouldnt be continuously reminded that you volunteer for help, and I shouldnt expect it. Which has been told be on quite a few occasions. So, you'll have to excuse me if I still say, I find windows easier, and most of the time, it work out of the box, far quicker than getting Ubuntu to work out of the box. That is coming form about 4 years of trying to get my Ubuntu to work properly. So sorry, its not about telling you your experience is wrong, its telling your my experience. And I wouldnt be told when trying to get help, buy a better computer. That isnt help. John.
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Ubuntu/Linux is still not an OS for the masses - discuss
Do all of these machines have nVidia graphics cards? Just a thought, but there's a known issue with the new Xorg 1.9 ABI that breaks the older nVidia drivers, and I'm guessing the 6800 would be one of them, hence the reason that Ubuntu *thinks* it is running ok. That might also explain the fact that there is no X fallback coming up. Kernel modesetting commands anyone? I remember seeing something about a machine with SiS graphics...I had trouble with them too :( -- Roy Jamison (xteejx) Ubuntu Bug Squad Ubuntu Bug Control www.ubuntu.com -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Ubuntu/Linux is still not an OS for the masses - discuss
If you ask me (and I know noone did) there will ALWAYS be as many people claiming it worked perfectly without any configuration at all as there are people who claim it was a nightmare, I couldnt get it to work and I couldnt get any help either regardless of whether its Linux/Windows/ OSX etc. This debate rages in Car/Motorcycle forums as well that I'm part of as well with people almost fighting to claim each side of the story. The fact is there will always be good and bad examples of experiences with any product, simple as that. I agree, feeling like you are not being helped enough by the Ubuntu community must be very frustrating, but considering how much we pay where I work for our Microsoft Volume Licensing the amount of help, or should I say lack of help we get from MS is shocking. Almost every fix I have ever implemented in my entire 15yr IT career has come from forums and word of mouth, or just plain old fault finding. I could name many people who have installed Windows out of the box with no issues, whatsoever, and many who have had an absolute nightmare. I'm sure the same goes for Ubuntu but in my opinion the help and resources for help from Microsoft are no better than for Ubuntu/Linux so if you arent getting the answers you need, either you need to shout louder, or maybe you are asking in the wrong forum (not literal). Paul. - Original Message - From: UK Ubuntu Talk To:UK Ubuntu Talk Cc: Sent:Wed, 13 Oct 2010 16:19:56 +0100 Subject:Re: [ubuntu-uk] Ubuntu/Linux is still not an OS for the masses - discuss On 13/10/10 16:09, Alan Pope wrote: On 13 October 2010 14:54, John Matthews wrote: On 13/10/10 13:49, Alan Pope wrote: It's easy if you know what you're doing. Same as rocket science or brain surgery. It's all about perspective. Many people who say 'ubuntu is easy' are almost always people who have had the pain of administering Windows systems for years and come to Ubuntu with that baggage. They probably find that Ubuntu fits their brain better and they feel at home with the way stuff works. But that is what I mean, you have years of experience, and to you its second nature. I have spent almost 4 years struggling to keep my Ubuntu working. I never had problems like this on windows, I was even able to help other people with windows problems. You're missing my point, and illustrating it perfectly. People seem to have an expectation that you should be able to install Ubuntu and it works out of the box with zero effort, zero learning and no issues whatsoever. That expectation isn't levelled at any other OS, so why Ubuntu? You probably haven't had many Windows operating system upgrades over the years either. We've released 2 versions a year since 2004. I bought a Mac for the first time last year having never owned one. It was a steep learning curve learning OSX, but I didn't complain that it was broken. But at least, if there is a problem, somebody is there to help. You know exactly what I mean there. Yes, there is someone there to take your money, delete viruses and reinstall the OS. There's very little else they help with. Ask them how to do mail-merge with Microsoft Word and Microsoft Access and see how far you get. If you have a problem with Windows you get help from a Windows expert (in this case Dixons). If you have a problem with Ubuntu, you get help from an Ubuntu expert. How is this different? Windows as much as I hate it, is easier to set up than Ubuntu. I disagree. I recently installed Windows XP on my desktop computer for some light gaming. It took the best part of a day to get the OS and all the necessary patches and drivers located and installed. Some of the drivers are quite hard to find. The printer driver alone was hundreds of megs download. Even if I used the most up to date Windows 7 DVD it would still require significant pain to setup. With Ubuntu I put the CD in, ran the installer and all the updates and software I needed was done in an hour and two reboots. That is you, you have the knowledge to deal with a problem, so it is going to be easy for you, your not really a good example of somebody who is new to Ubuntu. You missed my point. My point was that it is not easy to install Windows, and I've been doing it for years. It's tedious, painful and time consuming. Ubuntu installed on the same machine in a fraction of the time with no problems. I have had very few calls from my mum asking for help with her Ubuntu system. She uses the same kinds of apps most people do. Sorry, but from somebody who has had to struggle since I installed this, and still cannot get answers to problems I posted about years ago, such as my network shares, video not working, and other minor things, I still say sorry but that is wrong. Please don't tell me my own experience is wrong. It's an indisputable fact that I have had less calls for help from my mum using
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Ubuntu/Linux is still not an OS for the masses - discuss
On 13/10/10 16:35, Paul Jones wrote: If you ask me (and I know noone did) there will ALWAYS be as many people claiming it worked perfectly without any configuration at all as there are people who claim it was a nightmare, I couldnt get it to work and I couldnt get any help either regardless of whether its Linux/Windows/ OSX etc. This debate rages in Car/Motorcycle forums as well that I'm part of as well with people almost fighting to claim each side of the story. The fact is there will always be good and bad examples of experiences with any product, simple as that. I agree, feeling like you are not being helped enough by the Ubuntu community must be very frustrating, but considering how much we pay where I work for our Microsoft Volume Licensing the amount of help, or should I say lack of help we get from MS is shocking. Almost every fix I have ever implemented in my entire 15yr IT career has come from forums and word of mouth, or just plain old fault finding. I could name many people who have installed Windows out of the box with no issues, whatsoever, and many who have had an absolute nightmare. I'm sure the same goes for Ubuntu but in my opinion the help and resources for help from Microsoft are no better than for Ubuntu/Linux so if you arent getting the answers you need, either you need to shout louder, or maybe you are asking in the wrong forum (not literal). Paul. Yeh, but what makes the difference, is the support. It can be a nightmare, but if there is good support, and its not done in a way that makes you feel like a idiot or worse, then it doesnt matter if its bad, if you can get it fixed fine. To be told go else where, if you cant get on, that really is good support. That is what makes something worth it or not. John -- Ubuntu User #30817 -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Ubuntu/Linux is still not an OS for the masses - discuss
Hi John, You've clearly had problems with Ubuntu, and your problems haven't yet been resolved. I can understand the frustration you're feeling. On 13 October 2010 16:19, John Matthews jake...@sky.com wrote: Yeh, but there you go, for you, its never a problem, so it shouldnt be a problem for anybody else. I never said that. I merely have issues with the assertion people are making that Ubuntu is fundamentally broken for new users. I've explained why I think this whole argument is flawed already. Normal people don't install operating systems, they get techies to do that for them. I'd recommend watching Mark Shuttleworths keynote speech from the last Ubuntu Developer Summit because it explains quite well who our current market is, and how hard it is for us to leap the chasm to get adopted by normals. http://popey.blip.tv/file/3601671/ And as for getting help from Ubuntu, that isnt easy either, if it was, I still wouldnt have problems with my network shares and videos problems. Feel free to start a new thread at any one of these wonderful support locations:- http://ubuntuforums.org/ http://askubuntu.com/ https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-users http://webchat.freenode.net?channels=ubuntuuio=d4 I would be able to use my numbers at the side of the keyboard after asking for help. And I wouldnt be continuously reminded that you volunteer for help, and I shouldnt expect it. I don't think anyone quite says that. What they might say is don't call me in the middle of the night or send me personal emails because my time is limited or I have a family and don't want to be an Ubuntu support person 100% of the time. Maybe they also say if you provide answers to my questions I can help you better, and often I see if you're rude I might choose not to help you. However if you want guaranteed support there's always:- http://shop.canonical.com/index.php?cPath=31 Al. -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Ubuntu/Linux is still not an OS for the masses - discuss
On 13/10/10 16:34, Alan Pope wrote: Hi John, You've clearly had problems with Ubuntu, and your problems haven't yet been resolved. I can understand the frustration you're feeling. On 13 October 2010 16:19, John Matthewsjake...@sky.com wrote: Yeh, but there you go, for you, its never a problem, so it shouldnt be a problem for anybody else. I never said that. I merely have issues with the assertion people are making that Ubuntu is fundamentally broken for new users. I've explained why I think this whole argument is flawed already. Normal people don't install operating systems, they get techies to do that for them. I'd recommend watching Mark Shuttleworths keynote speech from the last Ubuntu Developer Summit because it explains quite well who our current market is, and how hard it is for us to leap the chasm to get adopted by normals. http://popey.blip.tv/file/3601671/ And as for getting help from Ubuntu, that isnt easy either, if it was, I still wouldnt have problems with my network shares and videos problems. Feel free to start a new thread at any one of these wonderful support locations:- http://ubuntuforums.org/ http://askubuntu.com/ https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-users http://webchat.freenode.net?channels=ubuntuuio=d4 I would be able to use my numbers at the side of the keyboard after asking for help. And I wouldnt be continuously reminded that you volunteer for help, and I shouldnt expect it. I don't think anyone quite says that. What they might say is don't call me in the middle of the night or send me personal emails because my time is limited or I have a family and don't want to be an Ubuntu support person 100% of the time. Maybe they also say if you provide answers to my questions I can help you better, and often I see if you're rude I might choose not to help you. However if you want guaranteed support there's always:- http://shop.canonical.com/index.php?cPath=31 Al. Ah, now where are getting somewhere, where have I ever contacted somebody off here about my computer in the middle of the night. I know where that is coming from. It should not even be part of this discussion. I have asked for help, and been told, what I told you up there on this e-mail group at least on two occassions. By the same person. Its also happened to me on #ubuntu-uk. I did go for paid help, and do you know what happened, I got an pre-written e-mail sending me to the forums and the e-mail group. I have also had 'get a better machine' from a certain helper on more that one occasion too from #ubunbtu-uk as well. My only consolation with said person, is I have seen him tell quite a few people the same thing, it seems to be his pat answer to people. Nice help. That doesnt surprise me really, basically what your saying is, go somewhere else, we cant be bothered. That brings us right back to what the OP said at the beginning. There we are. John -- Ubuntu User #30817 -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Ubuntu/Linux is still not an OS for the masses - discuss
Equal support!??! You have GOT to be kidding me right? When was the last time Microsoft had a bugtracker and actually had its employees respond to a problem, let alone even acknowledge you? Does MS have IRC channels? Direct support? No they bloody well don't! The help is there for Ubuntu if you need it; Windows...you're on your own. Failing that you could always get an MCSE and then be classed as an expert of s...@*t, and still not know how to network between Vista and 7 with it's cleverly designed HomeGroups that fail to connect to anything other than 7... Windows didn't even have a reporting this problem to MS feature until Vista, and how do you know it's being looked at? Does it ever get fixed? No. The suggestion is: upgrade or shut the hell up. Windows fanboys flame me, linux fanboys pat me on the back ;) lol I rest my case. On Wed, 2010-10-13 at 16:46 +0100, Paul Jones wrote: I cant comment on your experiences with getting support John, I've always had positive experiences from getting support from forums for both MS stuff and Linux, but I have never ever once, received a working solution, or anything resembling proper help from Microsoft themselves. There responses are usually very dismissive and unhelpful to say the least. I'm not trying to say you are wrong in your view, but I am trying to say that the Windows support for example is in my opinion no better than that of Linux. I'd personally class them as fairly equal. I can usually find an answer to my issues whether they are MS or Linux using the user forums and known documented issues. I certainly wouldnt say Ubuntu support is lacking in anyway, in comparison to other OS's. Paul. - Original Message - From: UK Ubuntu Talk ubuntu...@lists.ubuntucom To: UK Ubuntu Talk ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com Cc: Sent: Wed, 13 Oct 2010 16:39:24 +0100 Subject: Re: [ubuntu-uk] Ubuntu/Linux is still not an OS for the masses - discuss On 13/10/10 16:35, Paul Jones wrote: If you ask me (and I know noone did) there will ALWAYS be as many people claiming it worked perfectly without any configuration at all as there are people who claim it was a nightmare, I couldnt get it to work and I couldnt get any help either regardless of whether its Linux/Windows/ OSX etc. This debate rages in Car/Motorcycle forums as well that I'm part of as well with people almost fighting to claim each side of the story. The fact is there will always be good and bad examples of experiences with any product, simple as that. I agree, feeling like you are not being helped enough by the Ubuntu community must be very frustrating, but considering how much we pay where I work for our Microsoft Volume Licensing the amount of help, or should I say lack of help we get from MS is shocking Almost every fix I have ever implemented in my entire 15yr IT career has come from forums and word of mouth, or just plain old fault finding. I could name many people who have installed Windows out of the box with no issues, whatsoever, and many who have had an absolute nightmare. I'm sure the same goes for Ubuntu but in my opinion the help and resources for help from Microsoft are no better than for Ubuntu/Linux so if you arent getting the answers you need, either you need to shout louder, or maybe you are asking in the wrong forum (not literal). Paul. Yeh, but what makes the difference, is the support. It can be a nightmare, but if there is good support, and its not done in a way that makes you feel like a idiot or worse, then it doesnt matter if its bad, if you can get it fixed fine. To be told go else where, if you cant get on, that really is good support. That is what makes something worth it or not. John -- Ubuntu User #30817 -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/ -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Ubuntu/Linux is still not an OS for the masses - discuss
On 13/10/10 17:05, Roy Jamison wrote: Windows fanboys flame me, linux fanboys pat me on the back;) lol I rest my case. Sorry, this is verging on becoming abusive.. -- Ubuntu User #30817 -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Ubuntu/Linux is still not an OS for the masses -discuss
If you read what I wrote again, the term equal support was aimed at the self help methods including documentation and forums, which have always been reasonably good for MS. Microsoft themselves have always been shocking, I did say that in my last message... ;o) Sent from my BlackBerry® wireless device -Original Message- From: Roy Jamison xtee...@googlemail.com Sender: ubuntu-uk-boun...@lists.ubuntu.com Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2010 17:05:13 To: UK Ubuntu Talkubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com Reply-To: UK Ubuntu Talk ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com Subject: Re: [ubuntu-uk] Ubuntu/Linux is still not an OS for the masses - discuss Equal support!??! You have GOT to be kidding me right? When was the last time Microsoft had a bugtracker and actually had its employees respond to a problem, let alone even acknowledge you? Does MS have IRC channels? Direct support? No they bloody well don't! The help is there for Ubuntu if you need it; Windows...you're on your own. Failing that you could always get an MCSE and then be classed as an expert of s...@*t, and still not know how to network between Vista and 7 with it's cleverly designed HomeGroups that fail to connect to anything other than 7... Windows didn't even have a reporting this problem to MS feature until Vista, and how do you know it's being looked at? Does it ever get fixed? No. The suggestion is: upgrade or shut the hell up. Windows fanboys flame me, linux fanboys pat me on the back ;) lol I rest my case. On Wed, 2010-10-13 at 16:46 +0100, Paul Jones wrote: I cant comment on your experiences with getting support John, I've always had positive experiences from getting support from forums for both MS stuff and Linux, but I have never ever once, received a working solution, or anything resembling proper help from Microsoft themselves. There responses are usually very dismissive and unhelpful to say the least. I'm not trying to say you are wrong in your view, but I am trying to say that the Windows support for example is in my opinion no better than that of Linux. I'd personally class them as fairly equal. I can usually find an answer to my issues whether they are MS or Linux using the user forums and known documented issues. I certainly wouldnt say Ubuntu support is lacking in anyway, in comparison to other OS's. Paul. - Original Message - From: UK Ubuntu Talk ubuntu...@lists.ubuntucom To: UK Ubuntu Talk ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com Cc: Sent: Wed, 13 Oct 2010 16:39:24 +0100 Subject: Re: [ubuntu-uk] Ubuntu/Linux is still not an OS for the masses - discuss On 13/10/10 16:35, Paul Jones wrote: If you ask me (and I know noone did) there will ALWAYS be as many people claiming it worked perfectly without any configuration at all as there are people who claim it was a nightmare, I couldnt get it to work and I couldnt get any help either regardless of whether its Linux/Windows/ OSX etc. This debate rages in Car/Motorcycle forums as well that I'm part of as well with people almost fighting to claim each side of the story. The fact is there will always be good and bad examples of experiences with any product, simple as that. I agree, feeling like you are not being helped enough by the Ubuntu community must be very frustrating, but considering how much we pay where I work for our Microsoft Volume Licensing the amount of help, or should I say lack of help we get from MS is shocking Almost every fix I have ever implemented in my entire 15yr IT career has come from forums and word of mouth, or just plain old fault finding. I could name many people who have installed Windows out of the box with no issues, whatsoever, and many who have had an absolute nightmare. I'm sure the same goes for Ubuntu but in my opinion the help and resources for help from Microsoft are no better than for Ubuntu/Linux so if you arent getting the answers you need, either you need to shout louder, or maybe you are asking in the wrong forum (not literal). Paul. Yeh, but what makes the difference, is the support. It can be a nightmare, but if there is good support, and its not done in a way that makes you feel like a idiot or worse, then it doesnt matter if its bad, if you can get it fixed fine. To be told go else where, if you cant get on, that really is
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Ubuntu/Linux is still not an OS for the masses - discuss
On 13 October 2010 17:08, John Matthews jake...@sky.com wrote: Options I have tried and got nowhere again with. I don't know what to suggest then. I know a lot of people get help with their systems. To be honest with you, its pissed me off you bought up that thing about contacting people in the middle of the night. I think you may have misunderstood my point. I was merely highlighting reasons why people say they can't/won't help. Nothing more. I have had late night calls myself and it's a reason I use for not taking calls in future. I have not done that on here, or the ubuntu group, so I know there is only one reason for you to have bought that up. That is out of order, its nothing to do with you. It explains a hell of a lot though. Out of order. Sorry if you're offended by my examples. That wasn't my intention. Al. -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Ubuntu/Linux is still not an OS for the masses - discuss
On Wed, 13 Oct 2010 17:08 +0100, John Matthews jake...@sky.com wrote: Options I have tried and got nowhere again with. How about trying them again now? A good argument attracts a lot of people and that might give us enough eyeballs to make your bugs shallow and get fixes for them. Robert Robert McWilliam r...@allmail.netwww.ormiret.com The opinions expressed herin are not necessarily those of my employer, not necessarily mine, and probably not necessary. -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Ubuntu/Linux is still not an OS for the masses -discuss
John, yourself and Mel are making some very sweeping generalisations about the support available to Ubuntu users and the attitudes of the people providing the help. Peoples experiences of using Ubuntu I am sure will mirror users of Windows as well. Noones saying they can't be bothered to help but if you are posting on support forums and receiving no help then I'd suggest its either : A.) You are posting in the wrong sections B.) You aren't providing the required information. C.) People have never seen the problem you're experiencing. D.) Your manner isn't encouraging others to help you. I've been a user of support forums for years and have never had the issues you or Mel describe, I've asked questions on all manner of forums ranging from PC's to dishwashers to cats and never found a lack of people willing to help and point me in the right direction. I'd put money on it there are as many people with your point of view about the support they get from Microsoft but that doesn't mean there is a fundamental issue with the support, but clearly YOU aren't having a good experience. It seems to me peoples expectations are a little high with this sort of thing so maybe just maybe you need to be more receptive to the advice being given. I'm not saying that is the answer, just saying maybe, as the majority of people are able to find and get the help they need. Paul. --Original Message-- From: John Matthews Sender: ubuntu-uk-boun...@lists.ubuntu.com To: UK Ubuntu Talk ReplyTo: UK Ubuntu Talk Subject: Re: [ubuntu-uk] Ubuntu/Linux is still not an OS for the masses -discuss Sent: 13 Oct 2010 17:10 On 13/10/10 17:05, Roy Jamison wrote: Windows fanboys flame me, linux fanboys pat me on the back;) lol I rest my case. Sorry, this is verging on becoming abusive.. -- Ubuntu User #30817 -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/ Sent from my BlackBerry® wireless device -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Ubuntu/Linux is still not an OS for the masses -discuss
On 13/10/10 17:35, Paul Jones wrote: I've been a user of support forums for years and have never had the issues you or Mel describe, I've asked questions on all manner of forums ranging from PC's to dishwashers to cats and never found a lack of people willing to help and point me in the right direction. I'd put money on it there are as many people with your point of view about the support they get from Microsoft but that doesn't mean there is a fundamental issue with the support, but clearly YOU aren't having a good experience. It seems to me peoples expectations are a little high with this sort of thing so maybe just maybe you need to be more receptive to the advice being given. I'm not saying that is the answer, just saying maybe, as the majority of people are able to find and get the help they need. Paul. Ok, so that again says, its not happening to me, so cant be right. The problem I see here is, we have a problem, and all we are getting back is, excuses for why we could be having those problems. Problems not sorted, things said that shouldnt be said. Nothing accomplished apart from bad atmosphere. As far as generalisations, do you want me to be really specific, I can name names, give instances if you like, but I dont think that would be a good idea for any list, do you? so the reason why its general. You any idea how frustrating it is, to have a problem, and still have no solution, but lots of bad atmosphere. John. -- Ubuntu User #30817 -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Ubuntu/Linux is still not an OS for the masses - discuss
On 13 October 2010 10:28, Melv Bailey melvbai...@googlemail.com wrote: Hi My first post and its only as a result of frustration with Ubuntu. I would like to post here a post I posted in the Ubuntu forums which got no repsonse other than load the NVidia driver (not the point of the original post, and how since I had a totally black screen with a mouse pointer). Quotes --- Sorry if this seems a bit of a rant but there is now another new version Of Ubuntu that STILL does not address the fundamentals of running on a range of hardware that is fine for Windows. This has caused me a problem since 8.04 (7.10 is the last version I have run sort of successfully without having to jump through VGA driver hoops but I did have to jump through wireless drivers hoops and didnt solve them). I know VGA drivers seem to be a massive problem for Linux, but there does not seem to be a way to solve it. How do you install other drivers when the default drivers dont work - why is there no VGA mode option at boot time like (dare I say it) Windows. Why does it load with VGA drivers it knows wont work (and if it does not know, why does it not know, Windows does). I have tried the live CD on a laptop (old ATI mobile graphics) and a PC with NVidia 6800 both give me black screens with a mouse pointer. Earlier versions of Ubuntu give me various results from tiny images multiple times to psycodelic stripes. The laptop runs WinXP fine, and Win7 in VGA mode. The PC runs WinXP and Win7 perfectly with Aero (incidentally Win7 is faster). I am a Windows programmer/customer support technician with 22 years of PC experience (started as a hardware technician) all of it enduser facing so know their capabilities (or lack of). I keep trying to dabble in Linux but dont get very far in the little time I have (family) so I dont have hours of spare time to solve problems that should not exist). I know I can google and can find various commandline ways to force other drivers on (but only after I have installed it - and the live CD is meant to be a trial), what hope is there for the novice you are trying to encourage. It seems from the many blogs and forums my experiences are far from rare. Maybe I am missing some startup option but Ubuntu has done its best to hide them. The funny little icon at the bottom meaning to press a key to get some startup options, and noapci, nomodeset, etc are of course terms that even the most novice of users would understand arent they! Maybe if you have the latest dogs bo**ocks hardware Ubuntu will work (I and most of the people I know dont, especially not our business users) but Linux is advertised as being better than Windows because it is able to run on older and less able hardware, however I cant even get it to run on Harware that is more than able to run Windows 7. I have never yet failed to get a picture when installing Windows - any version, any PC of minimum spec for the version. It may only be 640*480 4 colour but at least I can see to sort it out, with Ubuntu you're truely in the dark. My years of enduser experience tells me that the CD will of hit the bottom of the bin before Windows has got back to the desktop, for people who fail to see a working (even if limited) desktop when trying the live CD. Tell me I am doing it all wrong and simple by doing it will work on anything. Remember Ubuntu is aimed at the masses who have little computer experience. I know lots of people who could install any version of Windows and end up with a working desktop (maybe not optimum but working). Very few of those people could solve this one, and would not even install Ubuntu if the Live CD didnt work. -- End of Quotes I have now tried the live CD on a Phenom X2 PC with integrated AMD 785G graphics and I did get to the desktop, so I installed. However after the successful install when I restarted the monitor just showed out of range and that was that. This is a current chipset, not an old machine. I then tried the live CD on a NEC Powermate PC with SIS integrated graphics and just get out of range on the monitor. This gives a 4 out of 4 failure rate. Why does Ubuntu try the be clever and set some weird video mode - what wrong with 1024*768 16bit colour that all these machines can run. Or if it insists on doing this why is there no boot option to force VGA mode like Windows for times when things go wrong. In view of the amount of posts regarding problems installing and getting working, and with more than 90% of solutions requiring the commandline and editing files (with vi they have no chance!) Ubuntu and Linux will never reach the masses. Also remember only very few will seek an answer, most will bin and forget. I am not trolling here, I keep telling my bosses that any development changes with our software (small commercial EPOS systems) must keep the door open to produce a Linux version in the future, but I am
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Ubuntu/Linux is still not an OS for the masses - discuss
On Wed, 2010-10-13 at 15:14 +0100, Melv Bailey wrote: Clearly the regulars on here (I have been following this list for a while) will defend Ubuntu to the hilt, but if you want its use to expand someone need to accept there is a problem. First I wish I could help - but haven't seen anything remotely like this problem except when I booted a PC from a drive onto which I had cloned the drive in my netbook. The video was out of range for the monitor that was connected at the time so I altered the monitor stuff and re-booted as failsafe. Can't remember how I did it - maybe by temporarily swapping monitors. Could you plug an external monitor into your laptop while you alter the resolution/sync rate etc? I won't defend Ubuntu to the hilt, but I will say that in the last six months, since I bought my Dell laptop, preinstalled with Ubuntu (sadly now no longer available), I have put Ubuntu onto seven PC's and one laptop with absolutely no problem. These are now in regular use by my wife, my daughter, myself, a non-computer literate friend who thinks Ubuntu is better than Windows and so on . One of these machines has an Nvidia-based mobo, but the proprietary driver installed and worked just fine. Oh, and of course the install did at first work with a video spec that the monitor could see. Having said that, I do understand how frustrated you are!! I would be too. From my experience, your situation has to be something of a rarity because of the particular machine that you have. I agree with many comments in this thread. If you possibly can persevere to the point at which you can file a bug report, this will be an enormous help to the community. You don't seem to be the sort that will give up on Ubuntu and I hope you don't!!! As a last resort thing, you might want to try installing Ubuntu on a machine (any machine) that will actually run it, then adjusting the video parameters to something your laptop can run, and then cloning the working machine onto your laptop hard-drive (maybe using gparted or something similar). Sounds hard, but is quite simple. Then prepare to be amazed by the fact the your cloned version will (almost certainly) run on a totally different motherboard. Windows was never like that as you well know Regards,Barry Drake -- Sent from my Dell Netbook using Ubuntu - the window-free environment that gives me real fresh air. -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Ubuntu/Linux is still not an OS for the masses -discuss
On Wed, 2010-10-13 at 17:44 +0100, John Matthews wrote: You any idea how frustrating it is, to have a problem, and still have no solution, but lots of bad atmosphere. it is a little frustrating for all concerned that a problem exists and insufficient information has been provided in order to reach a solution. File a bug through the processes already described, which will capture information about your hardware, then get on IRC using an irc client or this link in a browser http://webchat.freenode.net/?channels=ubuntu-ukuio=OT10cnVlJjEwPXRydWUmMTE9MTY036 and your issue will most likely be resolved (very few people have a totally unfixable hardware configuration) Information from this process can then be fed into the next version of Ubuntu so that the awesome bits are more awesome and the sucky bits suck less. Alan. -- Alan Bell The Open Learning Centre Web: http://www.theopenlearningcentre.com Mob: +44 (0)7738 789195 Tel: +44 (0)844 3576000 The Open Learning Centre is a trading name of Bell Lord Ltd, a company registered in England and Wales #05868943. VAT Registration #GB 901 4715 55 -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Ubuntu/Linux is still not an OS for the masses - discuss
On Wed, Oct 13, 2010 at 6:41 PM, Rob Beard r...@esdelle.co.uk wrote: On 13/10/10 16:30, Roy Jamison wrote: Do all of these machines have nVidia graphics cards? Just a thought, but there's a known issue with the new Xorg 1.9 ABI that breaks the older nVidia drivers, and I'm guessing the 6800 would be one of them, hence the reason that Ubuntu *thinks* it is running ok. That might also explain the fact that there is no X fallback coming up. Kernel modesetting commands anyone? I remember seeing something about a machine with SiS graphics...I had trouble with them too :( With regards to video problems, on 10.10 (and IIRC 10.04 LTS) when you boot from the CD (or even USB stick) as soon as it comes up with the icon of a keyboard and a person in a circle press the Enter key. Then you can choose your language. Then press F6 and then ESC. A line will come up saying Boot Options with a command line after it. Press the backspace key a few times to remove the following: quiet splash -- then enter the following: xforcevesa -- The boot options line should now read: file=/cdrom/preseed/ubuntu.seed boot=casper initrd=/casper/initrd.lz xforcevesa -- Once you have made these changes, press enter to boot. You should see a load of boot messages scroll by and eventually with any luck a desktop should appear. If you get a blank screen, you should be able to press Control - Alt - F1 to get to a terminal. If you're plugged in to the network via a network cable with any luck you should be able to run the apport-bug command to create a bug report (in text mode it will still walk you through logging a bug). I must admit, it's been a long while since I've had to boot Ubuntu with VESA display drivers (which is essentially a safe mode video driver) so I was a bit surprised to see the option has been removed from the boot Anyone know the reason behind dropping it. It seemed to disappear in Hardy menu. I believe the last machine I had to do it on had an Nvidia Geforce 6200 AGP graphics card. I can't remember what I did to get round it (I do remember it involved some head scratching and googling from another machine). Anyway I hope this is of some help to someone. Rob Isn't this what the OP was getting at. Why isn't this included as on option, so when the desktop fails to load, which in my experience, is far more common than is being indicated in this discussion, the user can reboot and try the 'safe graphics mode' option doing exactly this. What you've just posted, may as well be written in Urdu, the user the OP is describing would find this a ridiculously complicated method just to get a usable desktop. What they need is a selection that explains in plain English this is what you do if the normal method doesn't produce a desktop. Why was the safe graphics mode option ever removed? Maybe we should even get grub to create a 'safe graphics mode' entry, that way if a user later experiences video issues they can at least get to a desktop. Old nVidia hardware is an absolute nightmare in my experience, and I'll be keeping clear of nVidia for a long time. I experienced bug 220951 on a system which failed to start X. What to do then. Unusable tty's and no X Screwed. A safe graphics mode in my boot menu would have made life so much easier. I've learnt, and changed my grub conf to always create one. -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Ubuntu/Linux is still not an OS for the masses - discuss
On 13 October 2010 22:25, Will Bickerstaff will.bickerst...@gmail.comwrote: Isn't this what the OP was getting at. Why isn't this included as on option, so when the desktop fails to load, which in my experience, is far more common than is being indicated in this discussion, the user can reboot and try the 'safe graphics mode' option doing exactly this. What you've just posted, may as well be written in Urdu, the user the OP is describing would find this a ridiculously complicated method just to get a usable desktop. What they need is a selection that explains in plain English this is what you do if the normal method doesn't produce a desktop. Why was the safe graphics mode option ever removed? Maybe we should even get grub to create a 'safe graphics mode' entry, that way if a user later experiences video issues they can at least get to a desktop. Old nVidia hardware is an absolute nightmare in my experience, and I'll be keeping clear of nVidia for a long time. I experienced bug 220951 on a system which failed to start X. What to do then. Unusable tty's and no X Screwed. A safe graphics mode in my boot menu would have made life so much easier. I've learnt, and changed my grub conf to always create one. I think you hit the nail on the head. as long as we have to rely on binary closed source drivers direct from manufactures. these drivers will struggle to keep up with open-source development. in the meantime i think new and general users should run the more stable Long Term Support release (LTS). as it is generally the most stable release compared to the 6 monthly release. tends to upgrade to next LTS more reliably than the 6 monthly to 6 monthly. also the LTS is a 2 year release cycle. allowing longer between updates. (not sure this is made clear enough for new users). (note this doesn't deal directly with graphics issue but addresses the overall situation.) On 13 October 2010 22:39, Jacob Mansfield cyberja...@gmail.com wrote: I have but one thing to say about this argument. DOES ANYBODY ACTUALLY CARE??? Jacob Mansfield Programmer I think the discussion has some merits in user experience and the argument has left the thread in my opinion. leaving more room for discussion. azmodie -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Ubuntu/Linux is still not an OS for the masses - discuss
oo-errr... a few hours working at Morrisons and I come home to this? +1 for Alan Pope's thread that appears to have resulted in such abuse... he makes a very valid point that when you have community support it is on a voluntary basis and people should not be expected to give up their whole lives to do it... if you're paying Canonical and/or Microsoft support then you can expect it 24x7... I do not see where he suggested in ANY way that Mr Matthews had phoned him in the middle of the night... All getting a little bit too personal methinks! Calm down... Sean -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Ubuntu/Linux is still not an OS for the masses - discuss
On 13/10/10 23:49, azmodie wrote: snip in the meantime i think new and general users should run the more stable Long Term Support release (LTS). as it is generally the most stable release compared to the 6 monthly release. tends to upgrade to next LTS more reliably than the 6 monthly to 6 monthly. For a number of years now, I've upgraded both LTS and 6-month releases (and installed several versions on various machines from scratch). The upgrade from Hardy to Lucid on my main machine last week was a pain - Thunderbird's windowing and menus not working, Xsane ceasing to function, splash screen graphics wrong. After hours of fruitless investigation, I found that several of the problems seem related to the removal of the fglrx driver (which doesn't support Xorg 1.7), which has caused some folk a lot of difficulty. It's this sort of thing that leads to the kind of frustration that upset the OP, and one has to sympathise, even though there may be 'good' reasons for the hassle. It certainly confirms the old adage that FOSS is only free if your time has no value. mac -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Ubuntu/Linux is still not an OS for the masses - discuss
On 13/10/2010 7:56, Alan Pope wrote: On 13 October 2010 13:57, Melv Baileymelvbai...@googlemail.com wrote: Just seen Alan Bell's post and he has mentioned something no one else has, there is meant to be a failsafe X in low res mode. I didnt know that and have not in 4 years seen that mentioned before. Has anyone else ever seen Ubuntu boot in this failsafe mode? What is meant to trigger this mode? When X fails to start it falls back to failsafe mode. Al. My experience installing 10.04 does not support this claim, Alan. In my case, on a system with on-board nVidia graphics, X not only failed to start, the monitor went to sleep after claiming No input. Fortunately for me, I still had a working WinXP available, and I was able to learn that this was a known issue, and the solution was to select nomodeset from F6 before commencing installation. I must say, though, that I was very pleased with the Maverick installer. Not only is this the first release since 9.04 that has actually got my wifi working straight away, but the INSTALLER actually found the wifi and downloaded updates on the fly! Made me very happy! Now if I can just get the sound to work the way I want it to... Traveller -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Ubuntu/Linux is still not an OS for the masses - discuss
On 13/10/2010 7:14, Melv Bailey wrote: No one is addressing my point of the live CD. Al I dont doubt that once Ubuntu is working it may be less problem to maintain, and less problem to use, but if you have to edit files at the commandline to get there (read the answers to all the forum posts, this is required for a lot of solutions - I'm not imagining it) you cant do that on a live CD. Paul, Is it not the live CD that is given out at events/public places trying to get to the masses. I'm taking about the live CD, not having installed it,had it working then the driver getting stuffed up. Cant repair Xorg on a live cd. I've run the live cd on 4 differnet PCs, 3 gave me no usable desktop, one did. I installed on the one that did and after the restart the installed copy didn't give me a usable desktop. If you are installing on a system with nVidia graphics: after setting your default language, but before choosing a user name, hit F6 and select the nomodeset option. ESC to leave that option, and carry on as usual. On Maverick, because the installer had detected my wireless network, I was given the option to install the proprietary driver, which you really need anyway if you want decent graphics performance. If this option is not offered during install, the driver can be added later from System Administration Hardware Drivers. HTH Traveller John I agree some problems never get answers, but until it is accept there are problems they never will. Clearly the regulars on here (I have been following this list for a while) will defend Ubuntu to the hilt, but if you want its use to expand someone need to accept there is a problem. I agree people want something to work first time, but if it doesnt then it has to be easy to fix, they are not Linux experts like you. If you still are giving live CDs out to the public then your wasting your time, first impression mean so much, and a bad one can set bad opinions for a long time. I will probably get it to work on one of my PCs eventually when I can trawl the bug lists and forums for a solution, but my Win 7 on an Athlon XP2500+ and Nvidia 6800 that took less than an hour to setup is working it will have to wait for some free time, but I am certain the cost of the time taken to resolve it will exceed the cost of Win 7. All I wanted was to see Ubuntu 10.10 working on a PC. Mel -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
