Re: [ubuntu-uk] 13.04 behaves differently...

[Paula Graham]

On 01/03/13 02:24, Will Tinsdeall wrote:
I use Evolution. I find it the most complete solution for all of my
organisational needs. I don't know why they decided to move away from it
in the default distro

Will
>
>
I dunno, I yoyo between Evolution and TBird - Evolution is much better
as office software but sucks as a mail client whilst TBird is a pretty
good mail client which sucks as office software. The worst aspect of
Evolution's suckiness as a mail client is the annoyingly laggy IMAP
(yes, I have tried it again since they allegedly improved this). The
other thing it doesn't do is show tasks in the calendar - that totally
sucks cos it means I keep booking meetings over task deadlines.

I'm sure someone's about to suggest to me that I use both - and God
knows I've tried.  But that tends to screw up my sync cos one uses
funambol and the other uses syncevolution - I keep getting corrupted
addressbooks etc. And since Evolution's IMAP implementation is so grim
it makes it hard to keep even mails in sync.

I don't think anyone's really developing Evolution these days - and
Mozilla isn't going to add features to TBird so looks like both will be
vaguely unsatisfactory in one way or another in perpetuity ;)

Nuffin's ever perfect :D 

Paula
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Re: [ubuntu-uk] 13.04 behaves differently...

[Will Tinsdeall]

On 28 February 2013 11:30, Tony Pursell  wrote:

> On 27 February 2013 19:02, Paula Graham  wrote:
>
>> On 27/02/13 10:37, Alan Pope wrote:
>> > On 27/02/13 10:24, Tyler J. Wagner wrote:
>> >> On 2013-02-27 09:18, Alan Pope wrote:
>> >>> At my previous job where Windows + Outlook was the desktop of choice
>> >>> I've
>> >>> seen plenty of people do what Tyler described. One of the nice
>> features
>> >>> Windows has which I've never seen Linux desktops do nicely is
>> >>> dragging and
>> >>> dropping items from a non-focussed window onto the focussed window
>> >>> without
>> >>> focussing the non-focussed window.
>> >>
>> >> I'm describing the opposite. Drag an object from the maximised focused
>> >> window to a non-focused window.
>> >>
>> >
>> > Yes, I got that, I was describing other further useful features that
>> > Windows has :)
>> >
>> > Cheers,
>> Many years ago, I used to do this in Outlook all the time - it's one of
>> the few features I've always missed. I never found a way of doing it in
>> TBird. I've lived without it for the 10 years I've been using Ubuntu
>> already ;)
>>
>>
>>
>>
> I use Evolution (because it was the client in Warty when I started with
> Ubuntu) and I find I can drag and drop easily from Nautilus to a Compose
> Window.  I can also right click a file in Nautilus (the version in 12.04),
> select Sent To and choose Send as E-mail and the Evolution window comes up
> with the file as an attachment.  (Will this still work when I update to
> 14.04LTS, I wonder?)
>
> However, I am still more likely to use the add attachment function to pull
> the file into Evolution.
>
> Tony
>
>
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>
>
I use Evolution. I find it the most complete solution for all of my
organisational needs. I don't know why they decided to move away from it in
the default distro

Will
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Re: [ubuntu-uk] 13.04 behaves differently...

[Tony Pursell]

On 27 February 2013 19:02, Paula Graham  wrote:

> On 27/02/13 10:37, Alan Pope wrote:
> > On 27/02/13 10:24, Tyler J. Wagner wrote:
> >> On 2013-02-27 09:18, Alan Pope wrote:
> >>> At my previous job where Windows + Outlook was the desktop of choice
> >>> I've
> >>> seen plenty of people do what Tyler described. One of the nice features
> >>> Windows has which I've never seen Linux desktops do nicely is
> >>> dragging and
> >>> dropping items from a non-focussed window onto the focussed window
> >>> without
> >>> focussing the non-focussed window.
> >>
> >> I'm describing the opposite. Drag an object from the maximised focused
> >> window to a non-focused window.
> >>
> >
> > Yes, I got that, I was describing other further useful features that
> > Windows has :)
> >
> > Cheers,
> Many years ago, I used to do this in Outlook all the time - it's one of
> the few features I've always missed. I never found a way of doing it in
> TBird. I've lived without it for the 10 years I've been using Ubuntu
> already ;)
>
>
>
>
I use Evolution (because it was the client in Warty when I started with
Ubuntu) and I find I can drag and drop easily from Nautilus to a Compose
Window.  I can also right click a file in Nautilus (the version in 12.04),
select Sent To and choose Send as E-mail and the Evolution window comes up
with the file as an attachment.  (Will this still work when I update to
14.04LTS, I wonder?)

However, I am still more likely to use the add attachment function to pull
the file into Evolution.

Tony
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Re: [ubuntu-uk] 13.04 behaves differently...

[Paula Graham]

On 27/02/13 10:37, Alan Pope wrote:
> On 27/02/13 10:24, Tyler J. Wagner wrote:
>> On 2013-02-27 09:18, Alan Pope wrote:
>>> At my previous job where Windows + Outlook was the desktop of choice
>>> I've
>>> seen plenty of people do what Tyler described. One of the nice features
>>> Windows has which I've never seen Linux desktops do nicely is
>>> dragging and
>>> dropping items from a non-focussed window onto the focussed window
>>> without
>>> focussing the non-focussed window.
>>
>> I'm describing the opposite. Drag an object from the maximised focused
>> window to a non-focused window.
>>
>
> Yes, I got that, I was describing other further useful features that
> Windows has :)
>
> Cheers,
Many years ago, I used to do this in Outlook all the time - it's one of
the few features I've always missed. I never found a way of doing it in
TBird. I've lived without it for the 10 years I've been using Ubuntu
already ;)

Paula

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Re: [ubuntu-uk] 13.04 behaves differently...

[Alan Pope]

On 27/02/13 10:24, Tyler J. Wagner wrote:

On 2013-02-27 09:18, Alan Pope wrote:

At my previous job where Windows + Outlook was the desktop of choice I've
seen plenty of people do what Tyler described. One of the nice features
Windows has which I've never seen Linux desktops do nicely is dragging and
dropping items from a non-focussed window onto the focussed window without
focussing the non-focussed window.


I'm describing the opposite. Drag an object from the maximised focused
window to a non-focused window.



Yes, I got that, I was describing other further useful features that 
Windows has :)


Cheers,
--
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Engineering Manager

Canonical - Product Strategy
+44 (0) 7973 620 164
alan.p...@canonical.com
http://ubuntu.com/

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Re: [ubuntu-uk] 13.04 behaves differently...

[Tyler J. Wagner]

On 2013-02-27 09:18, Alan Pope wrote:
> At my previous job where Windows + Outlook was the desktop of choice I've
> seen plenty of people do what Tyler described. One of the nice features
> Windows has which I've never seen Linux desktops do nicely is dragging and
> dropping items from a non-focussed window onto the focussed window without
> focussing the non-focussed window.

I'm describing the opposite. Drag an object from the maximised focused
window to a non-focused window.

Regards,
Tyler

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Re: [ubuntu-uk] 13.04 behaves differently...

[Alan Pope]

On 26/02/13 20:37, Liam Proven wrote:

That's what, well, everyone I have ever seen using email in my life
does. Drag and dropping messages onto an app icon? I am sorry, but
WTAF? No!



At my previous job where Windows + Outlook was the desktop of choice 
I've seen plenty of people do what Tyler described. One of the nice 
features Windows has which I've never seen Linux desktops do nicely is 
dragging and dropping items from a non-focussed window onto the focussed 
window without focussing the non-focussed window.


So for me that would mean having a file manager window underneath an 
email composition window and dragging a file from the file manager into 
the email to attach it without losing focus on the email. It could also 
be used to drag emails into an email to attach it. This is arguably 
better than the method you describe because it enables you to add an 
attachment part way through a thread.


John: Hi Mary, Do you know what the sales were last week?
Mary: No, but Alan has it (cc:ed)
Alan: Here you go guys (drags email from archive into the thread and 
hits 'send').


The method you describe will initiate a new mail when you press 
'forward' whereas the scenario above will keep the attachment "in thread".


Cheers,
--
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Engineering Manager

Canonical - Product Strategy
+44 (0) 7973 620 164
alan.p...@canonical.com
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Re: [ubuntu-uk] 13.04 behaves differently...

[Liam Proven]

On 26 February 2013 15:32, Tyler J. Wagner  wrote:
> On 2013-02-26 14:48, Paula Graham wrote:
>> Agree, hated Unity at first (and there's still things about it,
>> especially lack of customisability) that are annoying) but now that it
>> actually works properly - and looks so nice on 13.04 ...
>
> One question: can you raise a window while dragging an object? After our
> internal user revolt (yes, an actual revolt insisting on a return to a
> desktop "like Maverick"), we moved to Linux Mint and I haven't seen Unity
> since.
>
> This didn't work as of Unity in 12.04:
>
> 1. Maximise Thunderbird
> 2. Compose a message
> 3. Switch back to the main Thunderbird window
> 4. Drag a message to the compose window, attempting to forward it as an
> attachment
>
> In Gnome 2, Cinnamon, and KDE, dragging an object to a task bar entry will
> will raise that window. In Unity, it tries to pin the app to the launcher.
> There is no way to drag something to a lowered window.
>
> The only way to forward messages in the way I describe above is to
> unmaximise Thunderbird, then position the message list and compose window
> side by side. This kind of defeats the purpose of working with maximised
> apps. *
>
> * Yes, there are more cumbersome ways to do this in Thunderbird, but my
> point is not being able to drag objects to apps in the background.

I am having great difficulty envisioning the process you are
describing here. In 28 years of using email, some 20 years of it using
GUI apps, I have never done anything like this, heard of it before,
seen anything like it done by anyone else.

So I am afraid I am going to venture to say that, no, you can't do
that, no, you never will be able to do it again, and that if you want
to forward messages you do the following:

#1 For a single message: select it, pick "forward"

#2 For a group of messages: block-highlight them, pick "forward"

That's what, well, everyone I have ever seen using email in my life
does. Drag and dropping messages onto an app icon? I am sorry, but
WTAF? No!

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Re: [ubuntu-uk] 13.04 behaves differently...

[Tyler J. Wagner]

On 2013-02-26 14:48, Paula Graham wrote:
> Agree, hated Unity at first (and there's still things about it,
> especially lack of customisability) that are annoying) but now that it
> actually works properly - and looks so nice on 13.04 ...

One question: can you raise a window while dragging an object? After our
internal user revolt (yes, an actual revolt insisting on a return to a
desktop "like Maverick"), we moved to Linux Mint and I haven't seen Unity
since.

This didn't work as of Unity in 12.04:

1. Maximise Thunderbird
2. Compose a message
3. Switch back to the main Thunderbird window
4. Drag a message to the compose window, attempting to forward it as an
attachment

In Gnome 2, Cinnamon, and KDE, dragging an object to a task bar entry will
will raise that window. In Unity, it tries to pin the app to the launcher.
There is no way to drag something to a lowered window.

The only way to forward messages in the way I describe above is to
unmaximise Thunderbird, then position the message list and compose window
side by side. This kind of defeats the purpose of working with maximised
apps. *

* Yes, there are more cumbersome ways to do this in Thunderbird, but my
point is not being able to drag objects to apps in the background.

Regards,
Tyler

-- 
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which course is patriotic and which isn't. You cannot shirk this and be
a man."
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Re: [ubuntu-uk] 13.04 behaves differently...

[Paula Graham]

On 21/02/13 17:37, Barry Drake wrote:
> Curiously, last week I put Mint on a spare partition just to take a
> look.  I found I was not enjoying the experience!  It was only on
> reflection that I realised I was missing the easy Unity experience too
> much!  I find Unity very usable on PC and netbook (no touch) and
> everything else feels, well, just old fashioned.
>
> Regards,Barry.
>
Agree, hated Unity at first (and there's still things about it,
especially lack of customisability) that are annoying) but now that it
actually works properly - and looks so nice on 13.04 - I do find
anything else feels clunky now.

Also agree that Nautilus is a total disaster on 12.04 - will look at
Nemo but will wait as it installs the cinnamon desktop and you have to
reconfigure to have Nautilus draw the desktop but Nemo manage files. Got
a feeling that's possibly going to end in tears on an alpha - and Unity
does seem very intolerant of hacking it about.

By the look of Nemo's functionality it does seem like a good idea to
dump Nautilus and replace it with Nemo for 13.04?

Paula


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Re: [ubuntu-uk] 13.04 behaves differently...

[Colin Law]

On 21 February 2013 21:59, SuperEngineer  wrote:
> ...
> Anyone thought of just snipping and replying to the relevant part
> only... this thread is cheaper than alcohol for confusing the reader ;)

Apologies.  Gmail makes one lazy as it automatically collapses the
previous posts.  No excuse I know.

Colin

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Re: [ubuntu-uk] 13.04 behaves differently...

[SuperEngineer]

On Thu, 2013-02-21 at 21:43 +, Gareth France wrote:
> On 21/02/13 21:40, Colin Law wrote:
> > On 21 February 2013 21:37, Gareth France 
> wrote:
> >> On 21/02/13 21:35, Colin Law wrote:
> >>> On 21 February 2013 21:21, Gareth France 
> wrote:
>  On 21/02/13 21:19, Colin Law wrote:
> > On 21 February 2013 17:41, Gareth France
> 
> > wrote:
> >> On 21/02/13 17:37, Barry Drake wrote:
> >>> On 21/02/13 17:28, Gareth France wrote:

Anyone thought of just snipping and replying to the relevant part
only... this thread is cheaper than alcohol for confusing the reader ;)

-- 
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Re: [ubuntu-uk] 13.04 behaves differently...

[Gareth France]

On 21/02/13 21:40, Colin Law wrote:

On 21 February 2013 21:37, Gareth France  wrote:

On 21/02/13 21:35, Colin Law wrote:

On 21 February 2013 21:21, Gareth France  wrote:

On 21/02/13 21:19, Colin Law wrote:

On 21 February 2013 17:41, Gareth France 
wrote:

On 21/02/13 17:37, Barry Drake wrote:

On 21/02/13 17:28, Gareth France wrote:

That's really funny. You've just given the exact same argument I do,
except I'm saying windows are trading usability and unity is a better
experience. I really don't see the problem with it.


Curiously, last week I put Mint on a spare partition just to take a
look.
I found I was not enjoying the experience!  It was only on reflection
that I
realised I was missing the easy Unity experience too much!  I find
Unity
very usable on PC and netbook (no touch) and everything else feels,
well,
just old fashioned.

Regards,Barry.


I can't say I love everything about it. Window switching works against
me
(multiple windows of the same program grouped together) and I can't use
keyboard shortcuts like ALT+F any more. I used to use the keyboard to
navigate menus a lot and I'm finding I'm just not using the HUD or
getting
used to those changes at all. But on the whole I do find it to be a
fluid
experience that I just get on with and I've actually never felt the
need
to
stray from unity, even in it's early days.

The keyboard shortcuts should still work, can you give a specific
example that does not work?

Colin


Correction. They did not work in 12.10 but appear to now be working in
13.04. Possibly a quirk of my install that got fixed with the upgrade. I
never complained about it because I thought that might be the case
anyway.

If it is specifically LibreOffice that you had the problem with then
there have been problems in 12.10 see [1] and possibly others.
Perhaps LO 4 (or other stuff in Raring) has fixed them.

Colin

[1] https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/libreoffice/+bug/739184


I'm sure it was more than just office but I can confirm right now it's
working in Thunderbird but not if libreoffice in 13.04.

Not fixed then :(
Are you on LO 4?

Colin



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Re: [ubuntu-uk] 13.04 behaves differently...

[Colin Law]

On 21 February 2013 21:37, Gareth France  wrote:
> On 21/02/13 21:35, Colin Law wrote:
>>
>> On 21 February 2013 21:21, Gareth France  wrote:
>>>
>>> On 21/02/13 21:19, Colin Law wrote:

 On 21 February 2013 17:41, Gareth France 
 wrote:
>
> On 21/02/13 17:37, Barry Drake wrote:
>>
>> On 21/02/13 17:28, Gareth France wrote:
>>>
>>> That's really funny. You've just given the exact same argument I do,
>>> except I'm saying windows are trading usability and unity is a better
>>> experience. I really don't see the problem with it.
>>
>>
>> Curiously, last week I put Mint on a spare partition just to take a
>> look.
>> I found I was not enjoying the experience!  It was only on reflection
>> that I
>> realised I was missing the easy Unity experience too much!  I find
>> Unity
>> very usable on PC and netbook (no touch) and everything else feels,
>> well,
>> just old fashioned.
>>
>> Regards,Barry.
>>
> I can't say I love everything about it. Window switching works against
> me
> (multiple windows of the same program grouped together) and I can't use
> keyboard shortcuts like ALT+F any more. I used to use the keyboard to
> navigate menus a lot and I'm finding I'm just not using the HUD or
> getting
> used to those changes at all. But on the whole I do find it to be a
> fluid
> experience that I just get on with and I've actually never felt the
> need
> to
> stray from unity, even in it's early days.

 The keyboard shortcuts should still work, can you give a specific
 example that does not work?

 Colin

>>> Correction. They did not work in 12.10 but appear to now be working in
>>> 13.04. Possibly a quirk of my install that got fixed with the upgrade. I
>>> never complained about it because I thought that might be the case
>>> anyway.
>>
>> If it is specifically LibreOffice that you had the problem with then
>> there have been problems in 12.10 see [1] and possibly others.
>> Perhaps LO 4 (or other stuff in Raring) has fixed them.
>>
>> Colin
>>
>> [1] https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/libreoffice/+bug/739184
>>
> I'm sure it was more than just office but I can confirm right now it's
> working in Thunderbird but not if libreoffice in 13.04.

Not fixed then :(
Are you on LO 4?

Colin

>
>
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Re: [ubuntu-uk] 13.04 behaves differently...

[Gareth France]

On 21/02/13 21:35, Colin Law wrote:

On 21 February 2013 21:21, Gareth France  wrote:

On 21/02/13 21:19, Colin Law wrote:

On 21 February 2013 17:41, Gareth France  wrote:

On 21/02/13 17:37, Barry Drake wrote:

On 21/02/13 17:28, Gareth France wrote:

That's really funny. You've just given the exact same argument I do,
except I'm saying windows are trading usability and unity is a better
experience. I really don't see the problem with it.


Curiously, last week I put Mint on a spare partition just to take a
look.
I found I was not enjoying the experience!  It was only on reflection
that I
realised I was missing the easy Unity experience too much!  I find Unity
very usable on PC and netbook (no touch) and everything else feels,
well,
just old fashioned.

Regards,Barry.


I can't say I love everything about it. Window switching works against me
(multiple windows of the same program grouped together) and I can't use
keyboard shortcuts like ALT+F any more. I used to use the keyboard to
navigate menus a lot and I'm finding I'm just not using the HUD or
getting
used to those changes at all. But on the whole I do find it to be a fluid
experience that I just get on with and I've actually never felt the need
to
stray from unity, even in it's early days.

The keyboard shortcuts should still work, can you give a specific
example that does not work?

Colin


Correction. They did not work in 12.10 but appear to now be working in
13.04. Possibly a quirk of my install that got fixed with the upgrade. I
never complained about it because I thought that might be the case anyway.

If it is specifically LibreOffice that you had the problem with then
there have been problems in 12.10 see [1] and possibly others.
Perhaps LO 4 (or other stuff in Raring) has fixed them.

Colin

[1] https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/libreoffice/+bug/739184

I'm sure it was more than just office but I can confirm right now it's 
working in Thunderbird but not if libreoffice in 13.04.


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Re: [ubuntu-uk] 13.04 behaves differently...

[Colin Law]

On 21 February 2013 21:21, Gareth France  wrote:
> On 21/02/13 21:19, Colin Law wrote:
>>
>> On 21 February 2013 17:41, Gareth France  wrote:
>>>
>>> On 21/02/13 17:37, Barry Drake wrote:

 On 21/02/13 17:28, Gareth France wrote:
>
> That's really funny. You've just given the exact same argument I do,
> except I'm saying windows are trading usability and unity is a better
> experience. I really don't see the problem with it.


 Curiously, last week I put Mint on a spare partition just to take a
 look.
 I found I was not enjoying the experience!  It was only on reflection
 that I
 realised I was missing the easy Unity experience too much!  I find Unity
 very usable on PC and netbook (no touch) and everything else feels,
 well,
 just old fashioned.

 Regards,Barry.

>>> I can't say I love everything about it. Window switching works against me
>>> (multiple windows of the same program grouped together) and I can't use
>>> keyboard shortcuts like ALT+F any more. I used to use the keyboard to
>>> navigate menus a lot and I'm finding I'm just not using the HUD or
>>> getting
>>> used to those changes at all. But on the whole I do find it to be a fluid
>>> experience that I just get on with and I've actually never felt the need
>>> to
>>> stray from unity, even in it's early days.
>>
>> The keyboard shortcuts should still work, can you give a specific
>> example that does not work?
>>
>> Colin
>>
> Correction. They did not work in 12.10 but appear to now be working in
> 13.04. Possibly a quirk of my install that got fixed with the upgrade. I
> never complained about it because I thought that might be the case anyway.

If it is specifically LibreOffice that you had the problem with then
there have been problems in 12.10 see [1] and possibly others.
Perhaps LO 4 (or other stuff in Raring) has fixed them.

Colin

[1] https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/libreoffice/+bug/739184

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Re: [ubuntu-uk] 13.04 behaves differently...

[Gareth France]

On 21/02/13 21:19, Colin Law wrote:

On 21 February 2013 17:41, Gareth France  wrote:

On 21/02/13 17:37, Barry Drake wrote:

On 21/02/13 17:28, Gareth France wrote:

That's really funny. You've just given the exact same argument I do,
except I'm saying windows are trading usability and unity is a better
experience. I really don't see the problem with it.


Curiously, last week I put Mint on a spare partition just to take a look.
I found I was not enjoying the experience!  It was only on reflection that I
realised I was missing the easy Unity experience too much!  I find Unity
very usable on PC and netbook (no touch) and everything else feels, well,
just old fashioned.

Regards,Barry.


I can't say I love everything about it. Window switching works against me
(multiple windows of the same program grouped together) and I can't use
keyboard shortcuts like ALT+F any more. I used to use the keyboard to
navigate menus a lot and I'm finding I'm just not using the HUD or getting
used to those changes at all. But on the whole I do find it to be a fluid
experience that I just get on with and I've actually never felt the need to
stray from unity, even in it's early days.

The keyboard shortcuts should still work, can you give a specific
example that does not work?

Colin

Correction. They did not work in 12.10 but appear to now be working in 
13.04. Possibly a quirk of my install that got fixed with the upgrade. I 
never complained about it because I thought that might be the case anyway.


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Re: [ubuntu-uk] 13.04 behaves differently...

[Colin Law]

On 21 February 2013 17:41, Gareth France  wrote:
> On 21/02/13 17:37, Barry Drake wrote:
>>
>> On 21/02/13 17:28, Gareth France wrote:
>>>
>>> That's really funny. You've just given the exact same argument I do,
>>> except I'm saying windows are trading usability and unity is a better
>>> experience. I really don't see the problem with it.
>>
>>
>> Curiously, last week I put Mint on a spare partition just to take a look.
>> I found I was not enjoying the experience!  It was only on reflection that I
>> realised I was missing the easy Unity experience too much!  I find Unity
>> very usable on PC and netbook (no touch) and everything else feels, well,
>> just old fashioned.
>>
>> Regards,Barry.
>>
> I can't say I love everything about it. Window switching works against me
> (multiple windows of the same program grouped together) and I can't use
> keyboard shortcuts like ALT+F any more. I used to use the keyboard to
> navigate menus a lot and I'm finding I'm just not using the HUD or getting
> used to those changes at all. But on the whole I do find it to be a fluid
> experience that I just get on with and I've actually never felt the need to
> stray from unity, even in it's early days.

The keyboard shortcuts should still work, can you give a specific
example that does not work?

Colin

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Re: [ubuntu-uk] 13.04 behaves differently...

[Gareth France]

On 21/02/13 17:37, Barry Drake wrote:

On 21/02/13 17:28, Gareth France wrote:
That's really funny. You've just given the exact same argument I do, 
except I'm saying windows are trading usability and unity is a better 
experience. I really don't see the problem with it.


Curiously, last week I put Mint on a spare partition just to take a 
look.  I found I was not enjoying the experience!  It was only on 
reflection that I realised I was missing the easy Unity experience too 
much!  I find Unity very usable on PC and netbook (no touch) and 
everything else feels, well, just old fashioned.


Regards,Barry.

I can't say I love everything about it. Window switching works against 
me (multiple windows of the same program grouped together) and I can't 
use keyboard shortcuts like ALT+F any more. I used to use the keyboard 
to navigate menus a lot and I'm finding I'm just not using the HUD or 
getting used to those changes at all. But on the whole I do find it to 
be a fluid experience that I just get on with and I've actually never 
felt the need to stray from unity, even in it's early days.


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Re: [ubuntu-uk] 13.04 behaves differently...

[Barry Drake]

On 21/02/13 17:28, Gareth France wrote:
That's really funny. You've just given the exact same argument I do, 
except I'm saying windows are trading usability and unity is a better 
experience. I really don't see the problem with it.


Curiously, last week I put Mint on a spare partition just to take a 
look.  I found I was not enjoying the experience!  It was only on 
reflection that I realised I was missing the easy Unity experience too 
much!  I find Unity very usable on PC and netbook (no touch) and 
everything else feels, well, just old fashioned.


Regards,Barry.

--
Barry Drake is a member of the the Ubuntu Advertising team.


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Re: [ubuntu-uk] 13.04 behaves differently...

[Gareth France]

On 21/02/13 17:01, Will Tinsdeall wrote:
On 21 February 2013 16:28, Paul Sutton > wrote:


On 21/02/13 16:23, Barry Drake wrote:
> On 21/02/13 16:15, Paul Sutton wrote:
>> Why,?? dumbing down is fine for perhaps home users in theory, or
>> people with no technical ability, and they will stay like that, as
>> they can't learn anything, if they want help it makes life very
hard
>> for old school hackers to do anything to help people, I know a
lot of
>> people moving to debian and other distros which means that
there are
>> then fewer people with excellent technical knowledge who can help,
>> long term ubuntu will end up suffering. Paul
>
> We're only talking about Nautilus - not Ubuntu.  IMO Nautilus is
> dreadful now.  I'm having to do things like the commandline
'find' to
> do stuff that used to be easily achieved from Nautilus.  I'm
sure when
> I reported one of many Nautilus deficiencies as a bug, someone
told me
> that this was the reason that an earlier branch form Nautilus
had been
> put into 12.10 as a stopgap, and consideration was being given
to the
> abolition of Nautilus in 13.04 if the Nautilus developers don't
get it
> right!  It's not 'dumbing down' but rather due to sweeping
changes in
> whatever widget library Nautilus is built from. (GTK - QT -
DUNNO ).
>
>
> Regards,Barry.
>

This sounds a good move,  my comment wasn't aimed at ubuntu but if
ubuntu is using a tool that is being dumbed down then this affects
peoples view of Ubuntu,   If nautilus is going in the wrong direction
then we need to look at something else.

remember if we are converting windows or mac users, then to them
everything in Windows is written by Microsoft,  or everything in apple
is written by apple,  where as with ubuntu the development teams
are all
over the world working on different projects and ubuntu is like
the glue
that holds this together.New users may not realise that
nautilus is
written by different team not directly attached to ubuntu developers.

Paul

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I'm still seething about Unity. I could see that they wanted to go 
touch by the whole design work, but the problem is Gnome Shell is just 
a better experience on the Desktop. They've traded desktop usability 
for touch devices... What file manager do you think Ubuntu should 
change to?


Right now I'm having to work out why gnome-shell decided to screw up 
the package manager on my upgrade from 12.04 to 12.10 Some strange 
dependencies somewhere I think...



That's really funny. You've just given the exact same argument I do, 
except I'm saying windows are trading usability and unity is a better 
experience. I really don't see the problem with it.
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Re: [ubuntu-uk] 13.04 behaves differently...

[Colin Law]

On 21 February 2013 17:05, Tyler J. Wagner  wrote:
> On 2013-02-21 16:23, Barry Drake wrote:
>> It's not 'dumbing
>> down' but rather due to sweeping changes in whatever widget library
>> Nautilus is built from. (GTK - QT - DUNNO ).
>
> Nautilus is built on GTK and Gnome. And no, the dumbing down has nothing to
> do with the widget library. Nemo, built on the same libraries, works fine
> and has all the power features Nautilus used to have. From the look of Nemo
> (especially its preference screen), I suspect they just forked Nautilus.
>
> Seriously install it and see:
>
> http://www.webupd8.org/2012/12/how-to-install-nemo-file-manager-in.html

Note that it also installs the Cinnamon Desktop.

Colin

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Re: [ubuntu-uk] 13.04 behaves differently...

[Kris Douglas]

On 21 February 2013 17:05, Tyler J. Wagner  wrote:
> Nautilus is built on GTK and Gnome. And no, the dumbing down has nothing to
> do with the widget library. Nemo, built on the same libraries, works fine
> and has all the power features Nautilus used to have. From the look of Nemo
> (especially its preference screen), I suspect they just forked Nautilus.

It is a fork of Nautilus.


-- 
Kris Douglas MBCS
 www.krisd.eu

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Re: [ubuntu-uk] 13.04 behaves differently...

[Tyler J. Wagner]

On 2013-02-21 16:23, Barry Drake wrote:
> It's not 'dumbing
> down' but rather due to sweeping changes in whatever widget library
> Nautilus is built from. (GTK - QT - DUNNO ).

Nautilus is built on GTK and Gnome. And no, the dumbing down has nothing to
do with the widget library. Nemo, built on the same libraries, works fine
and has all the power features Nautilus used to have. From the look of Nemo
(especially its preference screen), I suspect they just forked Nautilus.

Seriously install it and see:

http://www.webupd8.org/2012/12/how-to-install-nemo-file-manager-in.html

Regards,
Tyler

-- 
"By definition ... alternative medicine ... has either not been proved to
work, or has been proved not to work. You know what they call alternative
medicine that’s been proved to work? Medicine."
   -- Tim Minchin

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Re: [ubuntu-uk] 13.04 behaves differently...

[Will Tinsdeall]

On 21 February 2013 16:28, Paul Sutton  wrote:

> On 21/02/13 16:23, Barry Drake wrote:
> > On 21/02/13 16:15, Paul Sutton wrote:
> >> Why,?? dumbing down is fine for perhaps home users in theory, or
> >> people with no technical ability, and they will stay like that, as
> >> they can't learn anything, if they want help it makes life very hard
> >> for old school hackers to do anything to help people, I know a lot of
> >> people moving to debian and other distros which means that there are
> >> then fewer people with excellent technical knowledge who can help,
> >> long term ubuntu will end up suffering. Paul
> >
> > We're only talking about Nautilus - not Ubuntu.  IMO Nautilus is
> > dreadful now.  I'm having to do things like the commandline 'find' to
> > do stuff that used to be easily achieved from Nautilus.  I'm sure when
> > I reported one of many Nautilus deficiencies as a bug, someone told me
> > that this was the reason that an earlier branch form Nautilus had been
> > put into 12.10 as a stopgap, and consideration was being given to the
> > abolition of Nautilus in 13.04 if the Nautilus developers don't get it
> > right!  It's not 'dumbing down' but rather due to sweeping changes in
> > whatever widget library Nautilus is built from. (GTK - QT - DUNNO ).
> >
> >
> > Regards,Barry.
> >
>
> This sounds a good move,  my comment wasn't aimed at ubuntu but if
> ubuntu is using a tool that is being dumbed down then this affects
> peoples view of Ubuntu,   If nautilus is going in the wrong direction
> then we need to look at something else.
>
> remember if we are converting windows or mac users, then to them
> everything in Windows is written by Microsoft,  or everything in apple
> is written by apple,  where as with ubuntu the development teams are all
> over the world working on different projects and ubuntu is like the glue
> that holds this together.New users may not realise that nautilus is
> written by different team not directly attached to ubuntu developers.
>
> Paul
>
> --
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> https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk
> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
>


I'm still seething about Unity. I could see that they wanted to go touch by
the whole design work, but the problem is Gnome Shell is just a better
experience on the Desktop. They've traded desktop usability for touch
devices... What file manager do you think Ubuntu should change to?

Right now I'm having to work out why gnome-shell decided to screw up the
package manager on my upgrade from 12.04 to 12.10 Some strange
dependencies somewhere I think...
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Re: [ubuntu-uk] 13.04 behaves differently...

[Paul Sutton]

On 21/02/13 16:23, Barry Drake wrote:
> On 21/02/13 16:15, Paul Sutton wrote:
>> Why,?? dumbing down is fine for perhaps home users in theory, or
>> people with no technical ability, and they will stay like that, as
>> they can't learn anything, if they want help it makes life very hard
>> for old school hackers to do anything to help people, I know a lot of
>> people moving to debian and other distros which means that there are
>> then fewer people with excellent technical knowledge who can help,
>> long term ubuntu will end up suffering. Paul 
>
> We're only talking about Nautilus - not Ubuntu.  IMO Nautilus is
> dreadful now.  I'm having to do things like the commandline 'find' to
> do stuff that used to be easily achieved from Nautilus.  I'm sure when
> I reported one of many Nautilus deficiencies as a bug, someone told me
> that this was the reason that an earlier branch form Nautilus had been
> put into 12.10 as a stopgap, and consideration was being given to the
> abolition of Nautilus in 13.04 if the Nautilus developers don't get it
> right!  It's not 'dumbing down' but rather due to sweeping changes in
> whatever widget library Nautilus is built from. (GTK - QT - DUNNO ).
>
>
> Regards,Barry.
>

This sounds a good move,  my comment wasn't aimed at ubuntu but if
ubuntu is using a tool that is being dumbed down then this affects
peoples view of Ubuntu,   If nautilus is going in the wrong direction
then we need to look at something else.

remember if we are converting windows or mac users, then to them
everything in Windows is written by Microsoft,  or everything in apple
is written by apple,  where as with ubuntu the development teams are all
over the world working on different projects and ubuntu is like the glue
that holds this together.New users may not realise that nautilus is
written by different team not directly attached to ubuntu developers.

Paul

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Re: [ubuntu-uk] 13.04 behaves differently...

[Barry Drake]

On 21/02/13 16:15, Paul Sutton wrote:
Why,?? dumbing down is fine for perhaps home users in theory, or 
people with no technical ability, and they will stay like that, as 
they can't learn anything, if they want help it makes life very hard 
for old school hackers to do anything to help people, I know a lot of 
people moving to debian and other distros which means that there are 
then fewer people with excellent technical knowledge who can help, 
long term ubuntu will end up suffering. Paul 


We're only talking about Nautilus - not Ubuntu.  IMO Nautilus is 
dreadful now.  I'm having to do things like the commandline 'find' to do 
stuff that used to be easily achieved from Nautilus.  I'm sure when I 
reported one of many Nautilus deficiencies as a bug, someone told me 
that this was the reason that an earlier branch form Nautilus had been 
put into 12.10 as a stopgap, and consideration was being given to the 
abolition of Nautilus in 13.04 if the Nautilus developers don't get it 
right!  It's not 'dumbing down' but rather due to sweeping changes in 
whatever widget library Nautilus is built from. (GTK - QT - DUNNO ).



Regards,Barry.

--
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http://ubuntuadverts.org/


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Re: [ubuntu-uk] 13.04 behaves differently...

[Paul Sutton]

>> In 12.10 this was controlled via Nautilus, Edit > Preferences >
>> Behaviour > Run Executable Files when opened.  Raring includes a major
>> upgrade to Nautilus and they have removed lots of useful stuff (not
>> the Ubuntu developers, the Nautilus developers) so it may no longer be
>> there or may have moved.  Have a look.
>>
>> Colin


Why,??  dumbing down is fine for perhaps home users in theory,   or
people with no technical ability, and they will stay like that, as they
can't learn anything,if they want help it makes life very hard for
old school hackers to do anything to help people, 

I know a lot of people moving to debian and other distros which means
that there are then fewer people with excellent technical knowledge who
can help,  long term ubuntu will end up suffering.

Paul



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Re: [ubuntu-uk] 13.04 behaves differently...

[Gareth France]

On 21/02/13 16:00, Simon Greenwood wrote:




On 21 February 2013 15:56, Gareth France > wrote:


On 21/02/13 15:29, Tyler J. Wagner wrote:

On 2013-02-21 15:10, Colin Law wrote:

In 12.10 this was controlled via Nautilus, Edit >
Preferences >
Behaviour > Run Executable Files when opened.  Raring
includes a major
upgrade to Nautilus and they have removed lots of useful
stuff (not
the Ubuntu developers, the Nautilus developers) so it may
no longer be
there or may have moved.  Have a look.

Not intending to troll, but Linux Mint's Nemo file manager is
like a breath
of old, familiar air. These devs are busy restoring
functionality from
Gnome 2's nautilus. I've used it for 2 months now and do not
miss Nautilus
at all.

It should be easy to install in stock Ubuntu if you prefer Unity.

Regards,
Tyler

You know, I spend so much time telling the world how great Ubuntu
is. It would probably do me the world of good to look at some of
the alternatives every once in a while! Trouble is I don't have a
spare machine to try them on right now.

That's where VirtualBox comes in handy (yes, KVM is open source and 
the supported virtualisation solution but it doesn't work that well 
with desktops in my experience).


s/

--
Twitter: @sfgreenwood
"TBA are particularly glib"


Please see my posts on 'Ubuntu is unusably slow'. My poor pathetic 
laptop can't even handle playing music while I read the OMGUbuntu website!!!
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Re: [ubuntu-uk] 13.04 behaves differently...

[Simon Greenwood]

On 21 February 2013 15:56, Gareth France  wrote:

> On 21/02/13 15:29, Tyler J. Wagner wrote:
>
>> On 2013-02-21 15:10, Colin Law wrote:
>>
>>> In 12.10 this was controlled via Nautilus, Edit > Preferences >
>>> Behaviour > Run Executable Files when opened.  Raring includes a major
>>> upgrade to Nautilus and they have removed lots of useful stuff (not
>>> the Ubuntu developers, the Nautilus developers) so it may no longer be
>>> there or may have moved.  Have a look.
>>>
>> Not intending to troll, but Linux Mint's Nemo file manager is like a
>> breath
>> of old, familiar air. These devs are busy restoring functionality from
>> Gnome 2's nautilus. I've used it for 2 months now and do not miss Nautilus
>> at all.
>>
>> It should be easy to install in stock Ubuntu if you prefer Unity.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Tyler
>>
>>  You know, I spend so much time telling the world how great Ubuntu is. It
> would probably do me the world of good to look at some of the alternatives
> every once in a while! Trouble is I don't have a spare machine to try them
> on right now.
>
> That's where VirtualBox comes in handy (yes, KVM is open source and the
supported virtualisation solution but it doesn't work that well with
desktops in my experience).

s/

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Re: [ubuntu-uk] 13.04 behaves differently...

[Gareth France]

On 21/02/13 15:29, Tyler J. Wagner wrote:

On 2013-02-21 15:10, Colin Law wrote:

In 12.10 this was controlled via Nautilus, Edit > Preferences >
Behaviour > Run Executable Files when opened.  Raring includes a major
upgrade to Nautilus and they have removed lots of useful stuff (not
the Ubuntu developers, the Nautilus developers) so it may no longer be
there or may have moved.  Have a look.

Not intending to troll, but Linux Mint's Nemo file manager is like a breath
of old, familiar air. These devs are busy restoring functionality from
Gnome 2's nautilus. I've used it for 2 months now and do not miss Nautilus
at all.

It should be easy to install in stock Ubuntu if you prefer Unity.

Regards,
Tyler

You know, I spend so much time telling the world how great Ubuntu is. It 
would probably do me the world of good to look at some of the 
alternatives every once in a while! Trouble is I don't have a spare 
machine to try them on right now.


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Re: [ubuntu-uk] 13.04 behaves differently...

[Gareth France]

On 21/02/13 15:10, Colin Law wrote:

On 21 February 2013 14:56, Gareth France  wrote:

I've taken the plunge and upgraded, mostly out of boredom I think. It seems
rather shakey at the moment. Sound works, then it doesn't. Intel video needs
much prodding before it's usable and today everything was running at half
speed for a while.

However what intrigues me is that there are a number of subtle behaviour
changes and I'm unsure if they are intentional or not. I have a bash script
sat on my desktop, I double click it and it performs magic that I am too
lazy to do myself. Now I have upgraded it will load in Gedit if I double
click. Right clicking reveals no useful options and I have had to resort to
loading a terminal to launch it. Is this by design? If so, what is the logic
behind it?


In 12.10 this was controlled via Nautilus, Edit > Preferences >
Behaviour > Run Executable Files when opened.  Raring includes a major
upgrade to Nautilus and they have removed lots of useful stuff (not
the Ubuntu developers, the Nautilus developers) so it may no longer be
there or may have moved.  Have a look.

Colin

Yes, I read about the dumbing down of Nautilus with mild concern. For 
those who are interested there is only one menu now, named after the 
folder you are browsing, within this are sub menus. Preferences is the 
choice you want. You can choose execute, don't execute (the default) or 
ask each time. Also hidden files is no longer a choose each time you run 
it thing, you set it in much the same way and it stays like that. Oh, 
and be interested, as you'll be here soon too, lol.


This style of choices reminds me far too much of Windows. I liked the 
way hidden files was easily selected when you need it, but didn't hang 
around once you were done.


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Re: [ubuntu-uk] 13.04 behaves differently...

[Tyler J. Wagner]

On 2013-02-21 15:10, Colin Law wrote:
> In 12.10 this was controlled via Nautilus, Edit > Preferences >
> Behaviour > Run Executable Files when opened.  Raring includes a major
> upgrade to Nautilus and they have removed lots of useful stuff (not
> the Ubuntu developers, the Nautilus developers) so it may no longer be
> there or may have moved.  Have a look.

Not intending to troll, but Linux Mint's Nemo file manager is like a breath
of old, familiar air. These devs are busy restoring functionality from
Gnome 2's nautilus. I've used it for 2 months now and do not miss Nautilus
at all.

It should be easy to install in stock Ubuntu if you prefer Unity.

Regards,
Tyler

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   -- John F. Kennedy

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Re: [ubuntu-uk] 13.04 behaves differently...

[Colin Law]

On 21 February 2013 14:56, Gareth France  wrote:
> I've taken the plunge and upgraded, mostly out of boredom I think. It seems
> rather shakey at the moment. Sound works, then it doesn't. Intel video needs
> much prodding before it's usable and today everything was running at half
> speed for a while.
>
> However what intrigues me is that there are a number of subtle behaviour
> changes and I'm unsure if they are intentional or not. I have a bash script
> sat on my desktop, I double click it and it performs magic that I am too
> lazy to do myself. Now I have upgraded it will load in Gedit if I double
> click. Right clicking reveals no useful options and I have had to resort to
> loading a terminal to launch it. Is this by design? If so, what is the logic
> behind it?


In 12.10 this was controlled via Nautilus, Edit > Preferences >
Behaviour > Run Executable Files when opened.  Raring includes a major
upgrade to Nautilus and they have removed lots of useful stuff (not
the Ubuntu developers, the Nautilus developers) so it may no longer be
there or may have moved.  Have a look.

Colin

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