Re: [ubuntu-uk] Advice for the future
Mark, On Thu, 2007-10-18 at 11:10 +0100, Mark Harrison wrote: Mark Harrison, BA, MA, MBCS and could get be CITP if I ever got around to filling in the paperwork and sending off the cheque :-) Interesting! I'm sure my CITP just arrived in the post one day! Regards, Tony Arnold, BSc, MBCS, CITP. -- Tony Arnold, IT Security Coordinator, University of Manchester, IT Services Division, Kilburn Building, Oxford Road, Manchester M13 9PL. T: +44 (0)161 275 6093, F: +44 (0)870 136 1004, M: +44 (0)773 330 0039 E: [EMAIL PROTECTED], H: http://www.man.ac.uk/Tony.Arnold -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.kubuntu.org/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Advice for the future
Tony Arnold wrote: Mark, On Thu, 2007-10-18 at 11:10 +0100, Mark Harrison wrote: Mark Harrison, BA, MA, MBCS and could get be CITP if I ever got around to filling in the paperwork and sending off the cheque :-) Interesting! I'm sure my CITP just arrived in the post one day! Regards, Tony Arnold, BSc, MBCS, CITP. The issues are that 1: I have a BA in Mathematics and Computation, not a BSc... and 2: it's been 10 years since I worked for an employer that ran a BCS-approved CPD scheme, so basically I have to self-cert that period :-) M. -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.kubuntu.org/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Advice for the future
Out of your experience is there a big difference between a BSc from a top University (like York) and that of a lower ranking Computer Science course at somewhere like Essex or East Anglia? I'm prepared to take a year or two out as required to get a few A levels on top of my BTEC is required to achieve my goal. Yes. There absolutely is. It is well worth spending those few years to get the A levels to go to a good university. As others have mentioned you can take a foundation year at university, your BTECH should qualiy you for joining at this level. You do need to speak to the admission tutors and find out. I am currently on a placement year and have met other CS students at other universities. The level some of these students are at really appalls me. Some have never touched UNIX or C. IMO how the heck can you study CS without touching either? These people will never be taken seriously, i'd say 90% of them are doing 'bid' work (photocopying, printing CD labels etc) I would go for a minimum a Red Brick university. Somewhere like Manchester, UCL, Southampton are the 3 you should aim for. Anywhere else and you might not learn the skills you need. Remember: Where you get your degree is equally as important as what you studied. There really is a difference between good degrees and bad degrees and employers/people do know this. Example: Would you rather take someone with a degree in mathematics from Cambridge University or from Essex Polytechnic? (no offense to anyone from Essex Polytechnic) -- Matthew G Larsen [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.kubuntu.org/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Advice for the future
Jai Harrison wrote: Well I'm interested in York Uni. What other Universities are good for Computer Science and would you generally recommend? What University are you at? I'm at Kent Uni doing CS and I'd definitely recommend it. The course is good and the campus is great. It's #23 on that list you sent, so not too far down and the employment prospects are very good (better than Oxford). As other people have said I'd phone up the admissions people and have a chat with them, I didn't meet their entry requirements but they let me in anyway (I had 280 points) :) A foundation year is a good way to get into university although I guess A-levels would look better on your CV. -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.kubuntu.org/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Advice for the future
Hi Jai, On Wednesday 17 October 2007 at 09:39:38 Jai Harrison wrote: Well I'm interested in York Uni. What other Universities are good for Computer Science and would you generally recommend? What University are you at? York is a good university for CS, and it's also a really nice uni. I'd also recommend Southampton, Imperial, Liverpool, Edinburgh and my uni, Birmingham. According to our website, for our undergrad BSc in CS, we ask for: Number of A levels required: 3 Typical offers: ABB-BBB Required subjects and grades: Mathematics GCSE at grade B General Studies: Yes International Baccalaureate Diploma: 30-34 points including Mathematics at SL So, looks like they only ask for maths up to GCSE level, but I'm sure it would be a benefit to have it at A level as well. As others have hinted, I think it depends on what you're after. I've definitely gone the academic route, doing a BSc in Computer Science (at Leicester), MSc in Natural Computation (at Birmingham) and now I'm working towards a PhD here too. I don't want to mislead you, so do understand that maths is important - I'd go as far to say as its the foundation which the house is built on. Having said that, I'm not fantastic at it by any stretch of the imagination, but an A level really will be a big help. Having said all that though, I currently teach on an MSc conversion course for people who have no experience of computer science, and they generally do very well, given enough motivation (I wouldn't suggest this route though). It's perhaps also worth looking at what you might want to do after the degree (hey, it's never too early). Birmingham is really good for AI, for example, so it's good to get into a crowd with people who have the same interests (beyond just learning basic CS). Just my opinions though! Good luck, and keep us posted! Pete. -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.kubuntu.org/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Advice for the future
On Wednesday 17 October 2007 at 10:05:48 Daniel Lamb wrote: Go and see them both, don't only go to a uni due to their rankings. Make sure you will be happy there as well. Couldn't agree more - you do have to live there for 3+ years! -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.kubuntu.org/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Advice for the future
On 16/10/2007, Jai Harrison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm wondering if I should take a university that doesn't need A level maths, The University Of Bristol doesn't require A-Level maths (though it is preferred). Ranked 3rd for CS in the Times. http://extras.timesonline.co.uk/gug/gooduniversityguide.php?AC_sub=Computer+Scienceamp;x=6amp;y=10amp;sub=6 (behind Cambridge and Oxford). The requirements listed by Universities are sometimes only guidelines. Your best bet is to contact someone from University Admissions and talk to them about whether you really would require A-Level maths. For Bristol you can email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Unfortunately CS can contain quite a bit of Maths depending on the modules taken. Is it more a case of you don't like (or find Maths difficult), or a case of you just didn't chose that particular course and so don't have the background? If it's the latter case then it may not be too much of a problem as lecturers will often go over the basics that you actually need (and some of the Maths will be entirely knew to everyone). However I will stress, All Universities are different, what they offer in their courses do vary so do contact them and speak with someone who knows the specifics of the individual courses. hope that's of some use to you. Andy -- Computers are like air conditioners. Both stop working, if you open windows. -- Adam Heath -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.kubuntu.org/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Advice for the future
- Matthew Larsen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Yes. There absolutely is. It is well worth spending those few years to get the A levels to go to a good university. Is it _really_ ? I never went to uni, at all, neither red brick or otherwise. I don't seem to be doing to badly as a result. I'm sure there are skills and assets I'm missing by not having been to uni, but it's not held me back (that I'm aware of). And I quote: Sorry. 90% of employers will take the guy with the degree any day (for young people) over someone who doesnt. Replace 'young people' with 'new grads'. The point is it is extremely competitive if you're starting out, if you have 5 / 10+ years of experience behind you then most of what I have said goes down the toilet. But that isn't what we are talking about. What I typed is harsh, but it is true. Work in any of those 'FTSE100 Blue-chip company's' recruitment departments and they will say the same I have. I was extremly lucky. I got my job (trainee web designer) aka web/linux grunt/trainee, as a 19 year old with 2 A-Levels in IT, but no degree. When I started out last year, I knew almost nothing about linux. I had to do something CLI on a windows box yesterday, and kept typing ls instead of dir... I was the only non-graduate interviewed. Some of the smaller companies will take non-grads over grads, because (and I almost quote) the grads expect to be managers in 3 years. In a small company. Which isn't likely to grow quickly... Experience, and what you've already got on the internet does help. You don't have to go to uni. You can, and it helps with the larger companies (and you'll likely get a better starting pay), but you don't have to. Regards, Johnathon -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.kubuntu.org/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Advice for the future
On 17/10/2007, Matthew Larsen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Out of your experience is there a big difference between a BSc from a top University (like York) and that of a lower ranking Computer Science course at somewhere like Essex or East Anglia? I'm prepared to take a year or two out as required to get a few A levels on top of my BTEC is required to achieve my goal. I am currently on a placement year and have met other CS students at other universities. The level some of these students are at really appalls me. Some have never touched UNIX or C. IMO how the heck can you study CS without touching either? I think it's the same for any computer science degree anywhere, there are always people who somehow get by with no/little work and certainly no programming. That's why it's important to look at other skills and not just the grade on a piece of paper. I would go for a minimum a Red Brick university. Somewhere like Manchester, UCL, Southampton are the 3 you should aim for. Anywhere else and you might not learn the skills you need. Remember: Where you get your degree is equally as important as what you studied. There really is a difference between good degrees and bad degrees and employers/people do know this. Example: Would you rather take someone with a degree in mathematics from Cambridge University or from Essex Polytechnic? (no offense to anyone from Essex Polytechnic) Sorry but I think this is rubbish. I got a good computer science degree from an ex-poly, where I learned C, Unix, Perl, Java and Prolog to name a few. I then went on to study an MSc at the University of Manchester. I don't think the differences between the courses taught at red brick Unis compared to ex-polys are as big as some people would like to think. There certainly are bad degrees out there but they don't have to do be from ex-polys. Jai, I would recommend going to lots of open days and looking at what is taught on courses compared to what you're interested in learning. As some examples, are you interested in the theoretical side of things, programming or using computers in business? -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.kubuntu.org/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Advice for the future
On Wed, 2007-10-17 at 14:59 +0100, Chris Rowson wrote: It'd be interesting for people to put their money where their mouth's are, and tell us what they do for a living and what their level of qualification is. It's the only real way to see if having a degree makes a difference or not. Anyone who is currently on a degree course is of course going to say that it's the best way forward, as alternately anyone who hasn't got one is going to say it doesn't matter... I'll start the ball rolling... Chris - No Degree - Second line support engineer (although I've recently started working a in job which involves project coordination, service reviews etc etc) Matt - No Degree (although working towards one in CompSci with the OU) - Technical Manager for an Open Source consultancy in Kent. As an aside, the main reason I'm starting the degree having worked in the industry for around 7 years is that a number of organisations will not look at your CV unless you have a degree. Rightly or wrongly, this remains the case (personally I value experience and knowledge over pieces of paper!) so when it's time for me to move on from my current role, I'll hopefully have that magic paper that says I know what I'm talking about! Cheers, M. -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.kubuntu.org/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Advice for the future
Chris Rowson wrote: It'd be interesting for people to put their money where their mouth's are, and tell us what they do for a living and what their level of qualification is. It's the only real way to see if having a degree makes a difference or not. Anyone who is currently on a degree course is of course going to say that it's the best way forward, as alternately anyone who hasn't got one is going to say it doesn't matter... I'll start the ball rolling... Chris - No Degree - Second line support engineer (although I've recently started working a in job which involves project coordination, service reviews etc etc) Steve - No Degree - Systems Development Manager. I'm 24, and got my current job responding to an 'advert' on the West Yorkshire LUG mailing list. Steve Garton www.sheepeatingtaz.co.uk -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.kubuntu.org/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Advice for the future
On 17/10/2007, Chris Rowson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It'd be interesting for people to put their money where their mouth's are, and tell us what they do for a living and what their level of qualification is. Matt: Placement year doing contract work (primarily analysis / design and rollout management). I'm not sure what I want to do when I graduate hence placement year. Anyone who is currently on a degree course is of course going to say that it's the best way forward, as alternately anyone who hasn't got one is going to say it doesn't matter... Likewise anyone who isnt on one is going to say how pointless they are ... cyclic argument. But look at the facts: 1) Graduates make more money (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/6999510.stm) 2) You move up the management chain more quickly (virtually every company has a grad scheme) 3) You open your oppertunities massively If you have the opportunity, you really should go. You could go do llama farming in Peru when you graduate: you might as well get a degree before you do! I really do not understand why there is so much opposition to what I am saying. I am not criticising people without degrees, i'm advising Jai that if he wants the best opportunities you need to get a good degree from a good university. Yes, you can get into the industry without one, but for the reasons mentioned above it is well worth going for it. -- Matthew G Larsen [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.kubuntu.org/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Advice for the future
On 17/10/2007, Lucy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 17/10/2007, Chris Rowson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It'd be interesting for people to put their money where their mouth's are, and tell us what they do for a living and what their level of qualification is. It's the only real way to see if having a degree makes a difference or not. Steve - no degree (did 2 years of BSc in Comp Sci and ran out of cash). Senior Systems Developer and Operations Analyst on IBM's MVS systems I personally don't care if a candidate for a role I'm hiring for has a degree or not, nor where she/he got it. I'm far more interested in their ability to do perform in the role. I will hire you if you've got nothing more than a handful of GCSE's over a graduate if your the right person for the job. -- Steve When 1 person suffers from a delusion it is insanity. When many people suffer from a delusion it is called Religion. 09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0 -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.kubuntu.org/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Advice for the future
On 17/10/2007, Matthew Larsen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 17/10/2007, Chris Rowson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It'd be interesting for people to put their money where their mouth's are, and tell us what they do for a living and what their level of qualification is. Matt: Placement year doing contract work (primarily analysis / design and rollout management). I'm not sure what I want to do when I graduate hence placement year. So you're still studying then? Whilst this is great, it's kinda a no-brainer that you'll be pro-degree mate as you're not in the employment arena yet :-P Anyone who is currently on a degree course is of course going to say that it's the best way forward, as alternately anyone who hasn't got one is going to say it doesn't matter... Likewise anyone who isnt on one is going to say how pointless they are ... cyclic argument. If you read that back again, you'll notice that I already said that. But look at the facts: 1) Graduates make more money (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/6999510.stm) 2) You move up the management chain more quickly (virtually every company has a grad scheme) 3) You open your oppertunities massively If you have the opportunity, you really should go. You could go do llama farming in Peru when you graduate: you might as well get a degree before you do! I really do not understand why there is so much opposition to what I am saying. I am not criticising people without degrees, i'm advising Jai that if he wants the best opportunities you need to get a good degree from a good university. Yes, you can get into the industry without one, but for the reasons mentioned above it is well worth going for it. Matt, noone is opposing what you say. The difference is that not everyone is throwing up their arms and agreeing with you. Whilst it'd be nice if everyone did, everyone has an opinion on the matter and you're not likely to change it very easily ;-) It's great that you're doing your IT degree and that you're enjoying it mate, but noone is gettng at you because you are. You're obviously 100% assured that you made the right decision and that's great, but remember -what was the right decision for you isn't always the right decision for everyone else :-D Chris Chris -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.kubuntu.org/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Advice for the future
On 17/10/2007, Chris Rowson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It's great that you're doing your IT degree and that you're enjoying it mate, but noone is gettng at you because you are. You're obviously heh! I had a stunningly brilliant time at University - virtually none of it was to do with the course or the location though - it was all about meeting new people, becoming independent, living away from home, etc. Perhaps that's why I ran out of cash (this was many moons ago, pre Student loans). I'd advise anyone to go to Uni and study something... anything in fact. The skills you learn there will stand you in good stead for the rest of your life. The course you do may not but you'll come away a richer person. -- Steve When 1 person suffers from a delusion it is insanity. When many people suffer from a delusion it is called Religion. 09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0 -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.kubuntu.org/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Advice for the future
Daniel - No Degree - IT services basically everything from home user machines to corporate environments(this is what we focus on) with up to 50 users, worked for myself for a year just taken my company under another companies umbrella. Generally I find when people first of all ask me how old I am and I reply 21(or 18 when I started) they are shocked that I left school so early for uni, then I inform them I have never been to uni, I have never had a bad reaction to that, always get a Good for you or Impressive etc, and some of these people are very well thought of in the business community obviously I know I have been very lucky with where I have done my work etc and the people I have met. I do agree with Lucy as she said, I do miss sometimes not having the same background as some uni students have as well as having the same structure. Regards, Daniel -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Stephen Garton Sent: 17 October 2007 15:05 To: British Ubuntu Talk Subject: Re: [ubuntu-uk] Advice for the future Chris Rowson wrote: It'd be interesting for people to put their money where their mouth's are, and tell us what they do for a living and what their level of qualification is. It's the only real way to see if having a degree makes a difference or not. Anyone who is currently on a degree course is of course going to say that it's the best way forward, as alternately anyone who hasn't got one is going to say it doesn't matter... I'll start the ball rolling... Chris - No Degree - Second line support engineer (although I've recently started working a in job which involves project coordination, service reviews etc etc) Steve - No Degree - Systems Development Manager. I'm 24, and got my current job responding to an 'advert' on the West Yorkshire LUG mailing list. Steve Garton www.sheepeatingtaz.co.uk -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.kubuntu.org/UKTeam/ -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.kubuntu.org/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Advice for the future
Lucy wrote: On 17/10/2007, Matthew Larsen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: We should setup an [Ubuntu-UK][Jobs] list. There's always the UK LUG Linux jobs mailing list at: https://mailman.lug.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/linuxjobs/ A hotbed of activity ;-) Last updated 27 Sept. 2007 -- People choose Microsoft Windows for their PC in the same manner that the citizens of Soviet Russia elected the General Secretary of the Communist Party during the cold war. -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.kubuntu.org/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Advice for the future
Chris Rowson wrote: It'd be interesting for people to put their money where their mouth's are, and tell us what they do for a living and what their level of qualification is. It's the only real way to see if having a degree makes a difference or not. Anyone who is currently on a degree course is of course going to say that it's the best way forward, as alternately anyone who hasn't got one is going to say it doesn't matter... I'll start the ball rolling... Chris - No Degree - Second line support engineer (although I've recently started working a in job which involves project coordination, service reviews etc etc) Matt - Currently Studying for a Masters in Physics at Swansea Uni. As an aside to something someone said somewhere else in this thread! I was advised to change course after my foundation year from the course with the foundation year in the title, to the course without the foundation year in the title as it looks better on a CV! Though I opted onto the Masters instead. -Matt Daubney -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.kubuntu.org/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Advice for the future
David - No Degree - Incident manager (via 1st 2nd line support roles, MS consultancy) Got into IT via an unemployment training scheme, appeared to have a 'knack' with PC's and got my break at a small manufacturing company aged 21. Best year of my career, everythign from PC support to soldering serial connections into a HP48. Later moved onto contracting work, bounced around various roles for several years and spent 3 1.2 years i a MS consultancy role, where a colleague introduced me to Linux. Few more roles and got into the ITIL side of things about 3 years ago. IMHO I will interview graduates and non- grads equally - I'm more interested in the personalities and adaptability (for my side of IT anyway) The above is my personal opinion and in no way reflects that of my employer etc. Chris Rowson [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent by: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 17/10/2007 14:59 Please respond to British Ubuntu Talk ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com To British Ubuntu Talk ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com cc Subject Re: [ubuntu-uk] Advice for the future It'd be interesting for people to put their money where their mouth's are, and tell us what they do for a living and what their level of qualification is. It's the only real way to see if having a degree makes a difference or not. Anyone who is currently on a degree course is of course going to say that it's the best way forward, as alternately anyone who hasn't got one is going to say it doesn't matter... I'll start the ball rolling... Chris - No Degree - Second line support engineer (although I've recently started working a in job which involves project coordination, service reviews etc etc) -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.kubuntu.org/UKTeam/ This e-mail and any attachment are confidential and contain proprietary information, some or all of which may be legally privileged. It is intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to which it is addressed. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the author immediately by telephone or by replying to this e-mail, and then delete all copies of the e-mail on your system. If you are not the intended recipient, you must not use, disclose, distribute, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. Whilst we have taken reasonable precautions to ensure that this e-mail and any attachment has been checked for viruses, we cannot guarantee that they are virus free and we cannot accept liability for any damage sustained as a result of software viruses. We would advise that you carry out your own virus checks, especially before opening an attachment. The UK firm Ernst Young LLP is a limited liability partnership registered in England and Wales with registered number OC31 and is a member practice of Ernst Young Global. A list of members' names is available for inspection at 1 More London Place, London, SE1 2AF, the firm's principal place of business and its registered office. -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.kubuntu.org/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Advice for the future
I've just had an argument with my guardian about doing A levels next year instead of going to a third-rate University that will lead to my eventual curricular failure. It seems all of the good universities won't accept me without a maths qualification (only the bad ones require just a C in maths) and that there's no way into them after I finish this course. I should never have taken a BTEC... what a great way to waste my life. What do I do now? Take a third-rate University and end up with a qualification that's not worth the paper it's written on or take an A level whilst living on the streets? ... On 10/17/07, Darren Mansell [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Chris Rowson wrote: It'd be interesting for people to put their money where their mouth's are, and tell us what they do for a living and what their level of qualification is. It's the only real way to see if having a degree makes a difference or not. Anyone who is currently on a degree course is of course going to say that it's the best way forward, as alternately anyone who hasn't got one is going to say it doesn't matter... I'll start the ball rolling... Chris - No Degree - Second line support engineer (although I've recently started working a in job which involves project coordination, service reviews etc etc) Just posting this as it probably serves as a good example of the experience route: * Left school when I was 16 with 4 GCSEs (C grade), got a G in IT. * Worked in lots of different training schemes in Electrical Installation while getting £38 / week while doing CG 236 at college part time. * Worked in a catalogue shop when I couldnt get a job as an electrician. Got my NVQ L.2 in retail and L.3 in customer service * Worked for Dixons selling personal stereos * Worked for Currys / Mastercare giving electrical advice and simple electronic fixes * Worked for Evesham Technology in 1st line support * 2nd line support * 3rd line support * RD, got interested in Linux at Mandrake 7 time. * Worked for a computer company supporting Linux servers in various ways. Learned a helluva lot about Linux there. * Now work for a company providing mission critical hosted solutions to the majority of insurance brokers out there. Got a good wage and it was all down to my Linux experience and a good interview where I finally thought sod it and sold myself. Couldnt be bothered to not look arrogant any more and proceeded to explain to them how each technology worked that they asked if I had heard of. -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.kubuntu.org/UKTeam/ -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.kubuntu.org/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Advice for the future
On Wed, 2007-10-17 at 21:15 +0100, Jai Harrison wrote: I've just had an argument with my guardian about doing A levels next year instead of going to a third-rate University that will lead to my eventual curricular failure. It seems all of the good universities won't accept me without a maths qualification (only the bad ones require just a C in maths) and that there's no way into them after I finish this course. I should never have taken a BTEC... what a great way to waste my life. What do I do now? Take a third-rate University and end up with a qualification that's not worth the paper it's written on or take an A level whilst living on the streets? Welcome to life mate!!! -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.kubuntu.org/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Advice for the future
Jai Harrison wrote: I've just had an argument with my guardian about doing A levels next year instead of going to a third-rate University that will lead to my eventual curricular failure. It seems all of the good universities won't accept me without a maths qualification (only the bad ones require just a C in maths) and that there's no way into them after I finish this course. I should never have taken a BTEC... what a great way to waste my life. What do I do now? Take a third-rate University and end up with a qualification that's not worth the paper it's written on or take an A level whilst living on the streets? ... I've never liked maths but now I'm trying to do more and more development it makes me realise just how important it is for any kind of programming. -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.kubuntu.org/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Advice for the future
- Jai Harrison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I've just had an argument with my guardian about doing A levels next year instead of going to a third-rate University that will lead to my eventual curricular failure. It seems all of the good universities won't accept me without a maths qualification (only the bad ones require just a C in maths) and that there's no way into them after I finish this course. I should never have taken a BTEC... what a great way to waste my life. What do I do now? Take a third-rate University and end up with a qualification that's not worth the paper it's written on or take an A level whilst living on the streets? ... Jai, Try talking to a uni you're looking at's admissions department. As has been sugested, try asking about a foundation year, or asking if they'll take you with your BTEC. Non-Graduate, Officially, Trainee Web Designer. Unofficially, trainee web developer, linux sysadmin, linux user support (1st line, ending soon, YAY!), windows (2k/xp) user support. Basic data-entry work (that which a .sh script won't help with). Basically, a trainee/grunt :) I *love* my job. Really do... (I'm 20 atm) Johnathon / Kirrus -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.kubuntu.org/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Advice for the future
What do I do now? Take a third-rate University and end up with a qualification that's not worth the paper it's written on or take an A level whilst living on the streets? Hi mate, I don't know if it's just me, but I don't think many people give a monkeys which university you get your degree from (unless you're batting off Oxford and Cambridge for a place). Unless you get you degree from University of Lampong Village Naha Province South Indonesia I don't think an employers going to bat an eyelid at you going to a third rate uni. Chris -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.kubuntu.org/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Advice for the future
Essex University (my local Uni) doesn't require A Level Maths, only GCSE level maths. As a result it doesn't sound like it can compare with the other Universities value-wise. It's #43 on the Computer Science list and #36 overall (Times Good University Guide). This seems to be a University that I *can* get into after finishing my BTEC. Has anyone here done Computer Science at Essex or heard anything about it? On 10/17/07, Chris Rowson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What do I do now? Take a third-rate University and end up with a qualification that's not worth the paper it's written on or take an A level whilst living on the streets? Hi mate, I don't know if it's just me, but I don't think many people give a monkeys which university you get your degree from (unless you're batting off Oxford and Cambridge for a place). Unless you get you degree from University of Lampong Village Naha Province South Indonesia I don't think an employers going to bat an eyelid at you going to a third rate uni. Chris -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.kubuntu.org/UKTeam/ -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.kubuntu.org/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Advice for the future
On Wednesday 17 October 2007 15:55:25 Steve Flynn wrote: heh! I had a stunningly brilliant time at University - virtually none of it was to do with the course or the location though - it was all about meeting new people, becoming independent, living away from home, etc. Perhaps that's why I ran out of cash (this was many moons ago, pre Student loans). I'd advise anyone to go to Uni and study something... anything in fact. The skills you learn there will stand you in good stead for the rest of your life. The course you do may not but you'll come away a richer person. I really couldn't agree more. It really depends on where you want to go in life (i.e. not just in work). There's a lot of advice going around on here, but I'd just say: 1. Don't confuse training with education, and 2. Don't let your training interfere with your education. Go for it, whatever it is. Pete. A Level Maths (amongst others) BSc Computer Science - transferred from Politics CSIA Level 1 Ski Instructor MSc Natural Computation PhD Computer Science (hopefully) -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.kubuntu.org/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Advice for the future
Experience is almost as important or even more important than degrees, my advice would be find someone in your area then get some work with them if you can, easy than it sounds I know you might even need to do it for free but its good to get experience and then you will know what you want to focus on. If you want to then work up to getting linux degrees or network with cisco etc, can help you decide what part of IT you would want to work in as it is a massive field. Or if you like it you can be like some people(myself included) and get into anything IT related from media players to massive servers. Which is fun, but obviously pretty hard. Regards, Daniel -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jai Harrison Sent: 16 October 2007 23:04 To: British Ubuntu Talk Subject: [ubuntu-uk] Advice for the future Hey, I'm eighteen years old and I am on the second year of a BTEC National Diploma for IT Practitioners. I'm looking at achieving either a DDM (320 UCAS points) or DMM (280 UCAS points) at the end of the course. I want to do Computer Science at University but I all of the good ones want A level maths (which is something I don't have). I'm wondering if I should take a university that doesn't need A level maths, take A level maths and then University afterwards or just generally give up and take another direction in life... I'm feeling pretty lost and I figured that some of you must have gone through a similar education path in the past. - Jai -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.kubuntu.org/UKTeam/ -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.kubuntu.org/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Advice for the future
On 16/10/2007, Daniel Lamb [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Experience is almost as important or even more important than degrees, my advice would be find someone in your area then get some work with them if you can, easy than it sounds I know you might even need to do it for free but its good to get experience and then you will know what you want to focus on. If you want to then work up to getting linux degrees or network with cisco etc, can help you decide what part of IT you would want to work in as it is a massive field. Or if you like it you can be like some people(myself included) and get into anything IT related from media players to massive servers. Which is fun, but obviously pretty hard. Regards, Daniel I agree with you ... to a point. There are a number of factors to consider Jai: 1) What do you want to do. Research? Analysis? Consulting? Support? 2) Who do you want to work for. IBM / Sun / Yourself / local business / Cap Gemini / a school? 3) Who do you want to work with? IT professionals, leet haxors, your mates? 4) *Do you have the neccessary skills*. Can you explain a technical concept to your mother? Can you go away and write a system given a few months? Have you any proof of your skills? 5) *Do you have the neccessary qualifications* 6) *Do you have the neccessary experience* The important ones I have marked out. A degree in Computer Science will not teach you any of the soft skills. It will not teach you any of the business skills. It will teach you how to code, how to code well and all the underlying knowledge you will need to build any computer system. Hence Computer Science. If it means studying A level maths, study it. I had to and I am pants at maths. Qualifications (like MSCE, Java Certified Engineer) mean jack. Your CV does your talking for you. Experience beats qualifications any day of the week. The exception is a degree. Your degree is more than a piece of paper saying: I can code in Java or I can fix a broken AD tree. What anyone says about a degree being useless is wrong. Sorry. 90% of employers will take the guy with the degree any day (for young people) over someone who doesnt. If ANYTHING join the BCS. TBH anyone who takes themselves seriously in computing is a member of the BCS. Build your skillset now, while you still have a chance. Join the clubs, join the open source mailing lists (employers really dig the OSS stuff), play in bands, do stuff. This will make you a much more rounded individual and you will gain so much experience doing this stuff. Not to mention building up your network. Do not fall into the typical IT trap of thinking your the dogs bollocks. Do not spell Hyper-Text Markup Language wrong on your CV. There will _always_ be something you don't know, or _someone_ who is better than you. If you lie about what you can do, you *will* get found out, and you *will* look like an idiot. Be honest, no-one is expecting you to be perfect, and most employers would rather have someone they can shape up and give new perspectives on things. The most important thing is go with your instintcs. You shouldn't force yourself to do something you will not enjoy for the rest of your life. Likewise no-body is going to force you to do anything: you need to decide what you want to do and go for it. If it doesnt work out, chill, there is plenty of time to sort it out :-) Hope that helps, -- Matthew G Larsen [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.kubuntu.org/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Advice for the future
Matthew, kind of what I was getting at, but you said it a lot better! Jai just remember a job should be fun as well, don't pick IT due to it being well paid some people enjoy being a bus driver, make sure your happy, trust me money isn't everything, also depending what aspects of IT you get into its not as well paid as you think. Daniel -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Matthew Larsen Sent: 17 October 2007 00:06 To: British Ubuntu Talk Subject: Re: [ubuntu-uk] Advice for the future On 16/10/2007, Daniel Lamb [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Experience is almost as important or even more important than degrees, my advice would be find someone in your area then get some work with them if you can, easy than it sounds I know you might even need to do it for free but its good to get experience and then you will know what you want to focus on. If you want to then work up to getting linux degrees or network with cisco etc, can help you decide what part of IT you would want to work in as it is a massive field. Or if you like it you can be like some people(myself included) and get into anything IT related from media players to massive servers. Which is fun, but obviously pretty hard. Regards, Daniel I agree with you ... to a point. There are a number of factors to consider Jai: 1) What do you want to do. Research? Analysis? Consulting? Support? 2) Who do you want to work for. IBM / Sun / Yourself / local business / Cap Gemini / a school? 3) Who do you want to work with? IT professionals, leet haxors, your mates? 4) *Do you have the neccessary skills*. Can you explain a technical concept to your mother? Can you go away and write a system given a few months? Have you any proof of your skills? 5) *Do you have the neccessary qualifications* 6) *Do you have the neccessary experience* The important ones I have marked out. A degree in Computer Science will not teach you any of the soft skills. It will not teach you any of the business skills. It will teach you how to code, how to code well and all the underlying knowledge you will need to build any computer system. Hence Computer Science. If it means studying A level maths, study it. I had to and I am pants at maths. Qualifications (like MSCE, Java Certified Engineer) mean jack. Your CV does your talking for you. Experience beats qualifications any day of the week. The exception is a degree. Your degree is more than a piece of paper saying: I can code in Java or I can fix a broken AD tree. What anyone says about a degree being useless is wrong. Sorry. 90% of employers will take the guy with the degree any day (for young people) over someone who doesnt. If ANYTHING join the BCS. TBH anyone who takes themselves seriously in computing is a member of the BCS. Build your skillset now, while you still have a chance. Join the clubs, join the open source mailing lists (employers really dig the OSS stuff), play in bands, do stuff. This will make you a much more rounded individual and you will gain so much experience doing this stuff. Not to mention building up your network. Do not fall into the typical IT trap of thinking your the dogs bollocks. Do not spell Hyper-Text Markup Language wrong on your CV. There will _always_ be something you don't know, or _someone_ who is better than you. If you lie about what you can do, you *will* get found out, and you *will* look like an idiot. Be honest, no-one is expecting you to be perfect, and most employers would rather have someone they can shape up and give new perspectives on things. The most important thing is go with your instintcs. You shouldn't force yourself to do something you will not enjoy for the rest of your life. Likewise no-body is going to force you to do anything: you need to decide what you want to do and go for it. If it doesnt work out, chill, there is plenty of time to sort it out :-) Hope that helps, -- Matthew G Larsen [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.kubuntu.org/UKTeam/ -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.kubuntu.org/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Advice for the future
On Tue, 2007-10-16 at 23:04 +0100, Jai Harrison wrote: Hey, I'm eighteen years old and I am on the second year of a BTEC National Diploma for IT Practitioners. I'm looking at achieving either a DDM (320 UCAS points) or DMM (280 UCAS points) at the end of the course. I want to do Computer Science at University but I all of the good ones want A level maths (which is something I don't have). I'm wondering if I should take a university that doesn't need A level maths, take A level maths and then University afterwards or just generally give up and take another direction in life... I'm feeling pretty lost and I figured that some of you must have gone through a similar education path in the past. - Jai Hi Jai, When I was your age, I had no idea what I wanted to do - infact I wasn't sure i even wanted to attend a university. At least you know what you want to do, just not how to achieve it. I would be inclined to contact the admissions department of a university that interests you. When I was at University I had a friend who practically failed all his A-levels and was still accepted for Computer Science BSc. I'm sure things haven't changed that much, so you may be in luck. It makes me quite angry that BTEC's etc are 'sold' to school leavers as equivalent; but the university's don't make it particularly easy. I think the Diploma being in a related field will certainly help your application. One option most universities offer is an additional first year for people that don't get grades they wanted. Another option might be 'clearing'; but you will have to be fast. One slightly risky solution you could follow, is to pick a similar course that has fewer entry requirements (such as Computing), then convert to CS mid-course (I know of somebody that did this). As I said, the best people to talk to are the admission departments - they will offer the best advice. Whatever you chose, don't get despondent - if you want to go to university there is normally a way in. Keep us posted on what happens, and good luck. Hope this helps. Kind Regards, Dave Walker (BSc Computer Science) signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.kubuntu.org/UKTeam/
