Re: [Ubuntu-US-CA] the shirts

[Abhejit Rajagopal]

Hi all,
I'd like to retract my statements. Also, I somewhat butchered Grant's words.
He called for a pre-order of all the shirts, with which I would agree.

No hard feelings,
Abhejit Rajagopal

On Fri, Oct 16, 2009 at 9:55 AM, Y. Dixon wrote:

> I agree with ZeromusMog. I would really love a women's cut shirt. I also
> wouldn't mind pre-ordering.
>
>
> On Fri, Oct 16, 2009 at 7:06 AM, ZeromusMog  wrote:
>
>> It's less about "reverse sexism" (really?) and more that looking good
>> in a Linux shirt is hard enough, at least with a babydoll cut or
>> something similar it can go with an outfit. It'd actually be quite an
>> amazing feeling to be able to get a conference/logo shirt for once in
>> a flattering cut rather than being forced to wear a baggy, shapeless
>> t-shirt since all that's left by the time you get there is XXL.
>>
>> Of course, those of us that want it realize we're in a bit of a
>> minority and are going against the whole bulk order thing, as such I'd
>> be more than happy to pre order mine.
>>
>> On Thursday, October 15, 2009, Abhejit Rajagopal 
>> wrote:
>> > To Nathan's defense, ordering a set of regular shirts is in no way
>> sexist. The shirts we're ordering aren't "men's'". When it comes down to it,
>> its just more work to make a separate order for women's cuts. Yes, they
>> would be more fashionable for women, but a plain t-shirt works just as well.
>> In fact, one could say that ordering a "women's cut" is reverse sexism. Why
>> not order a men's only cut?
>> >
>> > Nevertheless, I think we should take Grant's approach, Ernest willing;
>> order men's t-shirts and take women's cuts by pre-order (whatever the extra
>> costs for women's cuts are). Our main concern should be getting t-shirts
>> with a logo on it. Not t-shirts that are specifically made for one gender
>> versus the other.
>> >
>> > Grant, perhaps we can distribute at local Koala release parties? Or
>> maybe local bug-jams?
>> > Abhejit Rajagopal
>> >
>> > On Thu, Oct 15, 2009 at 8:17 PM, Grant Bowman > > > 'cvml', 'grant...@gmail.com');>> wrote:
>> > Ernest,
>> > Are girl cuts available?
>> > Would you be willing to accept email pre-orders and summarize the status
>> on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CaliforniaTeam/Projects/Shirts ? Assuming we
>> come to some agreement or set of choices for the design, how do you
>> recommend we proceed with distribution?
>> >
>> >
>> > Grant
>> >
>> > On Oct 15, 2009 7:01 PM, "ZeromusMog" > > > 'cvml', 'zeromus...@gmail.com');>> wrote:
>> >
>> > If there is a girl cut shirt I'd actually buy it and wear it. Just
>> sayin'!
>> >
>> > Also stop being sexist everyone, both the ridiculous statements and
>> > over the top white knighting are equally offensive :P
>> >
>> > On Thursday, October 15, 2009, Larry Cafiero > > > 'cvml', 'larry.cafi...@gmail.com');>> wrote:
>> >> In an e-mail to thi...--
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Re: [Ubuntu-US-CA] the shirts

[Y. Dixon]

I agree with ZeromusMog. I would really love a women's cut shirt. I also
wouldn't mind pre-ordering.

On Fri, Oct 16, 2009 at 7:06 AM, ZeromusMog  wrote:

> It's less about "reverse sexism" (really?) and more that looking good
> in a Linux shirt is hard enough, at least with a babydoll cut or
> something similar it can go with an outfit. It'd actually be quite an
> amazing feeling to be able to get a conference/logo shirt for once in
> a flattering cut rather than being forced to wear a baggy, shapeless
> t-shirt since all that's left by the time you get there is XXL.
>
> Of course, those of us that want it realize we're in a bit of a
> minority and are going against the whole bulk order thing, as such I'd
> be more than happy to pre order mine.
>
> On Thursday, October 15, 2009, Abhejit Rajagopal 
> wrote:
> > To Nathan's defense, ordering a set of regular shirts is in no way
> sexist. The shirts we're ordering aren't "men's'". When it comes down to it,
> its just more work to make a separate order for women's cuts. Yes, they
> would be more fashionable for women, but a plain t-shirt works just as well.
> In fact, one could say that ordering a "women's cut" is reverse sexism. Why
> not order a men's only cut?
> >
> > Nevertheless, I think we should take Grant's approach, Ernest willing;
> order men's t-shirts and take women's cuts by pre-order (whatever the extra
> costs for women's cuts are). Our main concern should be getting t-shirts
> with a logo on it. Not t-shirts that are specifically made for one gender
> versus the other.
> >
> > Grant, perhaps we can distribute at local Koala release parties? Or maybe
> local bug-jams?
> > Abhejit Rajagopal
> >
> > On Thu, Oct 15, 2009 at 8:17 PM, Grant Bowman  >  'cvml', 'grant...@gmail.com');>> wrote:
> > Ernest,
> > Are girl cuts available?
> > Would you be willing to accept email pre-orders and summarize the status
> on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CaliforniaTeam/Projects/Shirts ? Assuming we
> come to some agreement or set of choices for the design, how do you
> recommend we proceed with distribution?
> >
> >
> > Grant
> >
> > On Oct 15, 2009 7:01 PM, "ZeromusMog"  >  'cvml', 'zeromus...@gmail.com');>> wrote:
> >
> > If there is a girl cut shirt I'd actually buy it and wear it. Just
> sayin'!
> >
> > Also stop being sexist everyone, both the ridiculous statements and
> > over the top white knighting are equally offensive :P
> >
> > On Thursday, October 15, 2009, Larry Cafiero  >  'cvml', 'larry.cafi...@gmail.com');>> wrote:
> >> In an e-mail to thi...--
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> >
> >
> >
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Re: [Ubuntu-US-CA] the shirts

[ZeromusMog]

It's less about "reverse sexism" (really?) and more that looking good
in a Linux shirt is hard enough, at least with a babydoll cut or
something similar it can go with an outfit. It'd actually be quite an
amazing feeling to be able to get a conference/logo shirt for once in
a flattering cut rather than being forced to wear a baggy, shapeless
t-shirt since all that's left by the time you get there is XXL.

Of course, those of us that want it realize we're in a bit of a
minority and are going against the whole bulk order thing, as such I'd
be more than happy to pre order mine.

On Thursday, October 15, 2009, Abhejit Rajagopal  wrote:
> To Nathan's defense, ordering a set of regular shirts is in no way sexist. 
> The shirts we're ordering aren't "men's'". When it comes down to it, its just 
> more work to make a separate order for women's cuts. Yes, they would be more 
> fashionable for women, but a plain t-shirt works just as well. In fact, one 
> could say that ordering a "women's cut" is reverse sexism. Why not order a 
> men's only cut?
>
> Nevertheless, I think we should take Grant's approach, Ernest willing; order 
> men's t-shirts and take women's cuts by pre-order (whatever the extra costs 
> for women's cuts are). Our main concern should be getting t-shirts with a 
> logo on it. Not t-shirts that are specifically made for one gender versus the 
> other.
>
> Grant, perhaps we can distribute at local Koala release parties? Or maybe 
> local bug-jams?
> Abhejit Rajagopal
>
> On Thu, Oct 15, 2009 at 8:17 PM, Grant Bowman 
> > wrote:
> Ernest,
> Are girl cuts available?
> Would you be willing to accept email pre-orders and summarize the status on 
> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CaliforniaTeam/Projects/Shirts ? Assuming we come to 
> some agreement or set of choices for the design, how do you recommend we 
> proceed with distribution?
>
>
> Grant
>
> On Oct 15, 2009 7:01 PM, "ZeromusMog" 
> > 
> wrote:
>
> If there is a girl cut shirt I'd actually buy it and wear it. Just sayin'!
>
> Also stop being sexist everyone, both the ridiculous statements and
> over the top white knighting are equally offensive :P
>
> On Thursday, October 15, 2009, Larry Cafiero 
>  'larry.cafi...@gmail.com');>> wrote:
>> In an e-mail to thi...--
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Re: [Ubuntu-US-CA] the shirts

[Abhejit Rajagopal]

To Nathan's defense, ordering a set of *regular* shirts is in no way sexist.
The shirts we're ordering aren't "men's'". When it comes down to it, its
just more work to make a separate order for women's cuts. Yes, they would be
more fashionable for women, but a plain t-shirt works just as well. In fact,
one could say that ordering a "women's cut" is reverse sexism. Why not order
a men's only cut?
Nevertheless, I think we should take Grant's approach, Ernest willing; order
men's t-shirts and take women's cuts by pre-order (whatever the extra costs
for women's cuts are). Our main concern should be getting t-shirts with a
logo on it. Not t-shirts that are specifically made for one gender versus
the other.

Grant, perhaps we can distribute at local Koala release parties? Or maybe
local bug-jams?

Abhejit Rajagopal

On Thu, Oct 15, 2009 at 8:17 PM, Grant Bowman  wrote:

> Ernest,
>
> Are girl cuts available?
>
> Would you be willing to accept email pre-orders and summarize the status on
> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CaliforniaTeam/Projects/Shirts ? Assuming we come
> to some agreement or set of choices for the design, how do you recommend we
> proceed with distribution?
>
> Grant
>
> On Oct 15, 2009 7:01 PM, "ZeromusMog"  wrote:
>
> If there is a girl cut shirt I'd actually buy it and wear it. Just sayin'!
>
> Also stop being sexist everyone, both the ridiculous statements and
> over the top white knighting are equally offensive :P
>
> On Thursday, October 15, 2009, Larry Cafiero 
> wrote: > In an e-mail to thi...
>
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Re: [Ubuntu-US-CA] the shirts

[Grant Bowman]

Ernest,

Are girl cuts available?

Would you be willing to accept email pre-orders and summarize the status on
https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CaliforniaTeam/Projects/Shirts ? Assuming we come to
some agreement or set of choices for the design, how do you recommend we
proceed with distribution?

Grant

On Oct 15, 2009 7:01 PM, "ZeromusMog"  wrote:

If there is a girl cut shirt I'd actually buy it and wear it. Just sayin'!

Also stop being sexist everyone, both the ridiculous statements and
over the top white knighting are equally offensive :P

On Thursday, October 15, 2009, Larry Cafiero 
wrote: > In an e-mail to thi...

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Re: [Ubuntu-US-CA] the shirts

[ZeromusMog]

If there is a girl cut shirt I'd actually buy it and wear it. Just sayin'!

Also stop being sexist everyone, both the ridiculous statements and
over the top white knighting are equally offensive :P

On Thursday, October 15, 2009, Larry Cafiero  wrote:
> In an e-mail to this list earlier today I said, " . . . from time to time, I 
> say things I have to
> take back." While normally I find I have to take them back a day or two 
> later, today -- after an off-list discussions with Nathan -- I've seem to 
> have broken my own record.
>
> I started the discussion about the shirts and a reference Nathan made that I 
> thought was sexist; despite the fact the statement was, for all intents and 
> purposes, an arguably innocuous one. During the course of a degenerating 
> discussion, however, things were said by me and others, and a tangent formed 
> which drew away from the original discussion at hand.
>
> Not speaking for anyone other than me, I'd like to apologize to the list for 
> setting off this needless firestorm of argument that took away from the 
> original issue, and I'd like to apologize to Nathan for implying that he was 
> being unreasonable. Needless to say, I have always thought highly of, and 
> have always appreciated, Nathan's continuous efforts working with the 
> California LoCo.
>
> [Oh, and sorry, Jack, for making your computer tell you "You Have Mail" 
> again, too.]
>
> So mea culpa, all. Let's get some t-shirts.
>
> Larry Cafiero
>
>
>

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Re: [Ubuntu-US-CA] the shirts

[Larry Cafiero]

In an e-mail to this list earlier today I said, " . . . from time to time, I
say things I have to take back." While normally I find I have to take them
back a day or two later, today -- after an off-list discussions with Nathan
-- I've seem to have broken my own record.

I started the discussion about the shirts and a reference Nathan made that I
thought was sexist; despite the fact the statement was, for all intents and
purposes, an arguably innocuous one. During the course of a degenerating
discussion, however, things were said by me and others, and a tangent formed
which drew away from the original discussion at hand.

Not speaking for anyone other than me, I'd like to apologize to the list for
setting off this needless firestorm of argument that took away from the
original issue, and I'd like to apologize to Nathan for implying that he was
being unreasonable. Needless to say, I have always thought highly of, and
have always appreciated, Nathan's continuous efforts working with the
California LoCo.

[Oh, and sorry, Jack, for making your computer tell you "You Have Mail"
again, too.]

So mea culpa, all. Let's get some t-shirts.

Larry Cafiero
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Re: [Ubuntu-US-CA] the shirts

[Grant Bowman]

We need two things.

  * shirt color & artwork

If only the logo is used - layout is trivial.  If anyone wants
something else someone must step forward to design the shirts as
Ernest requested.

  * numbers for each shirt size

To decide on numbers & sizes maybe the wiki page would be useful to
count up how many and which sizes people would like.

Constructive feedback is encouraged.

Grant Bowman
https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CaliforniaTeam

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Re: [Ubuntu-US-CA] the shirts

[Alan Ostlund]

In ancient Greece, whether Democracy or Oligarchy, the Greeks like 
nothing more than to let everyone speak.  It was said that unless you 
let everyone give their opinion, how would you be able to find the best 
one.  It was also  the reason they couldn't unify and become a country.  
It took Phillip of Masidonia to do that.  Maybe what we need is a 
dictator to unify and put up a better fight.

Alan Ostlund

Darkwing Duck wrote:
> Correction. We are not a democracy in here... Unless I missed the elections?
>
> DW
> -Original Message-
> From: Alan Ostlund 
> Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2009 11:07:54 
> To: Ubuntu US California
> Subject: Re: [Ubuntu-US-CA] the shirts
>
>   


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Re: [Ubuntu-US-CA] the shirts

[Darkwing Duck]

Correction. We are not a democracy in here... Unless I missed the elections?

DW
-Original Message-
From: Alan Ostlund 
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2009 11:07:54 
To: Ubuntu US California
Subject: Re: [Ubuntu-US-CA] the shirts

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Re: [Ubuntu-US-CA] the shirts

[Alan Ostlund]

Would anyone wonder why we have trouble getting things done for Ubuntu?  
This is the most posts I have read at anytime, and it is about something 
so small and having a choice in t-shirts.  What should be debated is 
what is on _the_ t-shirt.  Like most democracies, we tend to be are own 
worst enemy.


Alan Ostlund

Larry Cafiero wrote:
On Thu, Oct 15, 2009 at 10:31 AM, Nathan Haines > wrote:


On Thu, 2009-10-15 at 10:15 -0700, Larry Cafiero wrote:

>
> Good. We all should, and hopefully do. However, you don't seem to be
> bothered by making a statement implying dividing shirts into those
> with "ponies" (subtext: a "girl" motif) and those that don't.

I don't think calling out what was a disappointingly sexist remark
(although probably in an attempt to be politically correct, to
give the
benefit of the doubt) is sexist.


Good. I'm glad you don't mind that I called you out for making one, 
despite being way off base about why I did it. Hint: It wasn't to be 
politically correct, and let me suggest that assuming someone says 
something just to be "PC" is always a weak argument. The "ponies" 
statement was sexist. I appreciate the fact that you recognize this.



> Incidentally, I'm just wondering: In light of this and Mark
> Shuttleworth's arguable gaffes at LinuxCon, is it community
policy to
> dig yourself in deeper after you say something ridiculous, or is the
> phrase, "Gee, I'm sorry. I seem to have misspoken" forbidden
from the
> community's lexicon?

I did not misspeak when I said that the premise that a simple
shirt with
a logo on both sides needed to be planned specially with women in mind
because they had some sort of alien fashion sensibility was completely
non sequitur with the idea that they are people too, which was
spoken in
the same breath by the person who suggested it.


That would be nice, Nathan, except you seem to be falling into your 
typical cherry-picking of statements irrelevant to the main argument 
that, in several cases over the past several months, has bogged down 
the list.


Suffice to say, the logo was not the issue when the original poster 
made his comment about separate shirts for men and women -- that was 
my understanding, although the original poster is free to jump in here 
and correct me. Also, with a limited knowledge of fashion, my 
understanding is that the differences in men's and women's t-shirts 
revolve around the cut of the collar, for example (v-neck as opposed 
to crew neck), or a tapering in the waist -- though anyone with more 
fashion knowledge than me is free to jump in here as well.
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Re: [Ubuntu-US-CA] the shirts

[Jack Deslippe]

Please do not send any more emails on this subject to the list.  I think it
is clear that everyone agrees that getting the shirt in as many shapes and
sizes as is cost effective is best; so people (men and women) can make up
their own mind about what they like best.  If I have another "you have mail"
sound and it is an email of people quibbling about semantics, I am going to
go crazy.
-Jack

On Thu, Oct 15, 2009 at 10:51 AM, Larry Cafiero wrote:

> On Thu, Oct 15, 2009 at 10:31 AM, Nathan Haines wrote:
>
>> On Thu, 2009-10-15 at 10:15 -0700, Larry Cafiero wrote:
>>
>> >
>> > Good. We all should, and hopefully do. However, you don't seem to be
>> > bothered by making a statement implying dividing shirts into those
>> > with "ponies" (subtext: a "girl" motif) and those that don't.
>>
>> I don't think calling out what was a disappointingly sexist remark
>> (although probably in an attempt to be politically correct, to give the
>> benefit of the doubt) is sexist.
>>
>
> Good. I'm glad you don't mind that I called you out for making one, despite
> being way off base about why I did it. Hint: It wasn't to be politically
> correct, and let me suggest that assuming someone says something just to be
> "PC" is always a weak argument. The "ponies" statement was sexist. I
> appreciate the fact that you recognize this.
>
>
>> > Incidentally, I'm just wondering: In light of this and Mark
>> > Shuttleworth's arguable gaffes at LinuxCon, is it community policy to
>> > dig yourself in deeper after you say something ridiculous, or is the
>> > phrase, "Gee, I'm sorry. I seem to have misspoken" forbidden from the
>> > community's lexicon?
>>
>> I did not misspeak when I said that the premise that a simple shirt with
>> a logo on both sides needed to be planned specially with women in mind
>> because they had some sort of alien fashion sensibility was completely
>> non sequitur with the idea that they are people too, which was spoken in
>> the same breath by the person who suggested it.
>
>
> That would be nice, Nathan, except you seem to be falling into your typical
> cherry-picking of statements irrelevant to the main argument that, in
> several cases over the past several months, has bogged down the list.
>
> Suffice to say, the logo was not the issue when the original poster made
> his comment about separate shirts for men and women -- that was my
> understanding, although the original poster is free to jump in here and
> correct me. Also, with a limited knowledge of fashion, my understanding is
> that the differences in men's and women's t-shirts revolve around the cut of
> the collar, for example (v-neck as opposed to crew neck), or a tapering in
> the waist -- though anyone with more fashion knowledge than me is free to
> jump in here as well.
>
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Re: [Ubuntu-US-CA] the shirts

[Troy Ready]

Absolutely! I don't believe Mark spoke incorrectly when referencing his own 
sexual preference, even if he happens to be a white male. I thought Scott 
Remnant put it well on Planet Ubuntu 
(http://www.netsplit.com/2009/10/11/on-sexism/) when he said:

"...the very people who are currently attacking Mark would be defending me as a 
gay man for right to say things like that."

I believe it's my responsibility to show love to everyone, but that doesn't 
mean that I (we) should change behavior just because someone is offended.

-Troy


-Original Message-
From: ubuntu-us-ca-boun...@lists.ubuntu.com 
[mailto:ubuntu-us-ca-boun...@lists.ubuntu.com] On Behalf Of Darkwing Duck
Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2009 10:29
To: Ubuntu US California
Subject: Re: [Ubuntu-US-CA] the shirts

And may I ask why is that?
-Original Message-
From: Troy Ready 
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2009 10:25:07 
To: Ubuntu US California
Subject: Re: [Ubuntu-US-CA] the shirts

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Re: [Ubuntu-US-CA] the shirts

[Larry Cafiero]

On Thu, Oct 15, 2009 at 10:31 AM, Nathan Haines  wrote:

> On Thu, 2009-10-15 at 10:15 -0700, Larry Cafiero wrote:
>
> >
> > Good. We all should, and hopefully do. However, you don't seem to be
> > bothered by making a statement implying dividing shirts into those
> > with "ponies" (subtext: a "girl" motif) and those that don't.
>
> I don't think calling out what was a disappointingly sexist remark
> (although probably in an attempt to be politically correct, to give the
> benefit of the doubt) is sexist.
>

Good. I'm glad you don't mind that I called you out for making one, despite
being way off base about why I did it. Hint: It wasn't to be politically
correct, and let me suggest that assuming someone says something just to be
"PC" is always a weak argument. The "ponies" statement was sexist. I
appreciate the fact that you recognize this.


> > Incidentally, I'm just wondering: In light of this and Mark
> > Shuttleworth's arguable gaffes at LinuxCon, is it community policy to
> > dig yourself in deeper after you say something ridiculous, or is the
> > phrase, "Gee, I'm sorry. I seem to have misspoken" forbidden from the
> > community's lexicon?
>
> I did not misspeak when I said that the premise that a simple shirt with
> a logo on both sides needed to be planned specially with women in mind
> because they had some sort of alien fashion sensibility was completely
> non sequitur with the idea that they are people too, which was spoken in
> the same breath by the person who suggested it.


That would be nice, Nathan, except you seem to be falling into your typical
cherry-picking of statements irrelevant to the main argument that, in
several cases over the past several months, has bogged down the list.

Suffice to say, the logo was not the issue when the original poster made his
comment about separate shirts for men and women -- that was my
understanding, although the original poster is free to jump in here and
correct me. Also, with a limited knowledge of fashion, my understanding is
that the differences in men's and women's t-shirts revolve around the cut of
the collar, for example (v-neck as opposed to crew neck), or a tapering in
the waist -- though anyone with more fashion knowledge than me is free to
jump in here as well.
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Re: [Ubuntu-US-CA] the shirts

[Elizabeth Krumbach]

On Thu, Oct 15, 2009 at 12:44 PM, Darkwing Duck  wrote:
> I agree Nathan as long as the cuts are looked into. I know for sure that my 
> wife will want one or two. :) I just want to make sure that we don't get hit 
> with any flack as Larry was saying.

Different cuts would be nice, but even when I've looked into t-shirts
the additional costs involved in offering both types tended to be
prohibitive. If this turns out to be the case, just make sure you
order includes mediums and smalls too, conferences and organizations
are getting better about it but I remember a time when the only
available techie shirts that were offered were XL (or larger), and I
don't need any more nightgowns ;)

Oh, and absolutely on the same design for both shirts. Canonical got
in trouble a couple years ago for offering a single woman's shirt in
their store and it read "Linux for Ladies" - the response from the
community was "Why can't women get regular "Linux for Human Beings"
shirts? Are women not humans?" They started offering the "Linux for
Human Beings" shirts in the women's cut, I bought one.

-- 
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http://www.princessleia.com

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Re: [Ubuntu-US-CA] the shirts

[Nathan Haines]

On Thu, 2009-10-15 at 10:15 -0700, Larry Cafiero wrote:

> 
> Good. We all should, and hopefully do. However, you don't seem to be
> bothered by making a statement implying dividing shirts into those
> with "ponies" (subtext: a "girl" motif) and those that don't.

I don't think calling out what was a disappointingly sexist remark
(although probably in an attempt to be politically correct, to give the
benefit of the doubt) is sexist.

> Incidentally, I'm just wondering: In light of this and Mark
> Shuttleworth's arguable gaffes at LinuxCon, is it community policy to
> dig yourself in deeper after you say something ridiculous, or is the
> phrase, "Gee, I'm sorry. I seem to have misspoken" forbidden from the
> community's lexicon?

I did not misspeak when I said that the premise that a simple shirt with
a logo on both sides needed to be planned specially with women in mind
because they had some sort of alien fashion sensibility was completely
non sequitur with the idea that they are people too, which was spoken in
the same breath by the person who suggested it.

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Ubuntu California Local Community Team


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Re: [Ubuntu-US-CA] the shirts

[Darkwing Duck]

And may I ask why is that?
-Original Message-
From: Troy Ready 
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2009 10:25:07 
To: Ubuntu US California
Subject: Re: [Ubuntu-US-CA] the shirts

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Re: [Ubuntu-US-CA] the shirts

[Troy Ready]

Obviously it comes down to who decides what comments are ridiculous. I think I 
would be offended if Mark apologized.

-Troy

From: ubuntu-us-ca-boun...@lists.ubuntu.com 
[mailto:ubuntu-us-ca-boun...@lists.ubuntu.com] On Behalf Of Larry Cafiero
Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2009 10:16
To: Ubuntu US California
Subject: Re: [Ubuntu-US-CA] the shirts

On Thu, Oct 15, 2009 at 9:27 AM, Nathan Haines 
mailto:nhai...@ubuntu.com>> wrote:
On Thu, 2009-10-15 at 08:26 -0700, Larry Cafiero wrote:
> On Wed, Oct 14, 2009 at 9:57 PM, Nathan Haines 
> mailto:nhai...@ubuntu.com>>
> wrote:
I find the implication that women need to be separately
planned for or else they're being deliberately excluded to be incredibly
offensive.

Good. We all should, and hopefully do. However, you don't seem to be bothered 
by making a statement implying dividing shirts into those with "ponies" 
(subtext: a "girl" motif) and those that don't.

Got it.

Women are people, indeed. While there are certainly times
when it's an important consideration, I don't think a simple logo tee is
one of them.

While it's an important consideration to remember that women are people, 
indeed, you're also right, Nathan, that a logo tee may not be one where we need 
to make separate shirts.

Might be nice, though, but not particularly necessary.

Incidentally, I'm just wondering: In light of this and Mark Shuttleworth's 
arguable gaffes at LinuxCon, is it community policy to dig yourself in deeper 
after you say something ridiculous, or is the phrase, "Gee, I'm sorry. I seem 
to have misspoken" forbidden from the community's lexicon?

The reason I ask is that, from time to time, I say things I have to take back 
-- which I do, with apologies if necessary -- so I don't want to be in 
violation of any policy/policies.

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Re: [Ubuntu-US-CA] the shirts

[Larry Cafiero]

On Thu, Oct 15, 2009 at 9:27 AM, Nathan Haines  wrote:

> On Thu, 2009-10-15 at 08:26 -0700, Larry Cafiero wrote:
> > On Wed, Oct 14, 2009 at 9:57 PM, Nathan Haines 
> > wrote:
>
> I find the implication that women need to be separately
> planned for or else they're being deliberately excluded to be incredibly
> offensive.


Good. We all should, and hopefully do. However, you don't seem to be
bothered by making a statement implying dividing shirts into those with
"ponies" (subtext: a "girl" motif) and those that don't.

Got it.


> Women are people, indeed. While there are certainly times
> when it's an important consideration, I don't think a simple logo tee is
> one of them.


While it's an important consideration to remember that women are people,
indeed, you're also right, Nathan, that a logo tee may not be one where we
need to make separate shirts.

Might be nice, though, but not particularly necessary.

Incidentally, I'm just wondering: In light of this and Mark Shuttleworth's
arguable gaffes at LinuxCon, is it community policy to dig yourself in
deeper after you say something ridiculous, or is the phrase, "Gee, I'm
sorry. I seem to have misspoken" forbidden from the community's lexicon?

The reason I ask is that, from time to time, I say things I have to take
back -- which I do, with apologies if necessary -- so I don't want to be in
violation of any policy/policies.
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Re: [Ubuntu-US-CA] the shirts

[Darkwing Duck]

I agree Nathan as long as the cuts are looked into. I know for sure that my 
wife will want one or two. :) I just want to make sure that we don't get hit 
with any flack as Larry was saying. 

DW
--Original Message--
From: Nathan Haines
Sender: ubuntu-us-ca-boun...@lists.ubuntu.com
To: Ubuntu US California
ReplyTo: Ubuntu US California
Subject: Re: [Ubuntu-US-CA] the shirts
Sent: Oct 15, 2009 09:27

On Thu, 2009-10-15 at 08:26 -0700, Larry Cafiero wrote:
> On Wed, Oct 14, 2009 at 9:57 PM, Nathan Haines 
> wrote:

> 
> A simple "They'll be the same as the men's t-shirts" would have
> sufficed. 
> 

Perhaps.  I find the implication that women need to be separately
planned for or else they're being deliberately excluded to be incredibly
offensive.  Women are people, indeed.  While there are certainly times
when it's an important consideration, I don't think a simple logo tee is
one of them.

I think the only consideration needed is whether we have the ability to
get different cuts that might be tailored for women, but even then I
think if they are not available, we just need to make sure we have some
smaller sizes on hand.

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Ubuntu California Local Community Team


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Re: [Ubuntu-US-CA] the shirts

[Nathan Haines]

On Thu, 2009-10-15 at 08:26 -0700, Larry Cafiero wrote:
> On Wed, Oct 14, 2009 at 9:57 PM, Nathan Haines 
> wrote:

> 
> A simple "They'll be the same as the men's t-shirts" would have
> sufficed. 
> 

Perhaps.  I find the implication that women need to be separately
planned for or else they're being deliberately excluded to be incredibly
offensive.  Women are people, indeed.  While there are certainly times
when it's an important consideration, I don't think a simple logo tee is
one of them.

I think the only consideration needed is whether we have the ability to
get different cuts that might be tailored for women, but even then I
think if they are not available, we just need to make sure we have some
smaller sizes on hand.

-- 
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Ubuntu California Local Community Team


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Re: [Ubuntu-US-CA] the shirts

[Darkwing Duck]

What would be harm in ordering some female cut shirts? I mean for a female they 
are more comfortable. 

I just don't see the resistance in it. 

DW
-Original Message-
From: Larry Cafiero 
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2009 08:26:29 
To: Ubuntu US California
Subject: Re: [Ubuntu-US-CA] the shirts

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Re: [Ubuntu-US-CA] the shirts

[Larry Cafiero]

On Wed, Oct 14, 2009 at 9:57 PM, Nathan Haines  wrote:

> No one's being sexist, they don't have to have ponies on them.


Ponies? No one's being sexist, except . . . .

[Not to worry, Nathan. It's the same kind of flip remark that got Mark
Shuttleworth in hot water at LinuxCon.]

A simple "They'll be the same as the men's t-shirts" would have sufficed.
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Re: [Ubuntu-US-CA] the shirts

[Nathan Haines]

Ron Carlton wrote:
> how are the women's tee-shirts going to look.Let's not be sexist 
> here, women are people too so we have to consider how it will appeal 
> to them.
They're going to look identical to the men's t-shirts.  No one's being 
sexist, they don't have to have ponies on them.  All we're talking about 
so far are simple logo tee's.

-- 
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Ubuntu California Local Community Team


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