[Ubuntu-x-swat] [Bug 418939] Re: Too many crimean tatar keyboard layouts added for Romania

2011-04-09 Thread Reşat SABIQ
The code fixes are on their way. The last thing left to be fixed is the casing 
in the subject of this bug. :)
I look forward to seeing language-centric keyboard preferences UI in stable 
releases as well.

Thanks all.

** Summary changed:

- Too many crimean tatar keyboard layouts added for Romania
+ Too many Crimean Tatar keyboard layouts added for Romania

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  Too many Crimean Tatar keyboard layouts added for Romania

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[Ubuntu-x-swat] [Bug 418939] Re: Too many crimean tatar keyboard layouts added for Romania

2011-04-05 Thread Bug Watch Updater
** Changed in: xkeyboard-config
   Status: Confirmed = Fix Released

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[Ubuntu-x-swat] [Bug 418939] Re: Too many crimean tatar keyboard layouts added for Romania

2011-04-01 Thread Bug Watch Updater
** Changed in: xkeyboard-config
   Status: Invalid = Confirmed

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[Ubuntu-x-swat] [Bug 418939] Re: Too many crimean tatar keyboard layouts added for Romania

2011-03-31 Thread Bug Watch Updater
** Changed in: xkeyboard-config
   Status: Confirmed = Invalid

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[Ubuntu-x-swat] [Bug 418939] Re: Too many crimean tatar keyboard layouts added for Romania

2011-03-31 Thread Bryce Harrington
Thanks.  Unfortunately UI freeze has already passed for Ubuntu natty,
but will look forward to seeing these changes included in oneiric when
we update to a new xkeyboard-config release.

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[Ubuntu-x-swat] [Bug 418939] Re: Too many crimean tatar keyboard layouts added for Romania

2011-03-30 Thread Reşat SABIQ
FYI: the politicized By country tab has been dropped in the latest
xkeyboard-config code, and a patch[1] has been submitted to show Crimean
Tatar layouts in a language-centric manner, consistently with how it's
now done for most other layouts. Among other things this patch ensures
that Crimean Tatar layouts are not mixed with Romanian layouts.

[1] https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=35787

** Bug watch added: freedesktop.org Bugzilla #35787
   http://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=35787

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[Ubuntu-x-swat] [Bug 418939] Re: Too many crimean tatar keyboard layouts added for Romania

2011-03-03 Thread Bug Watch Updater
** Changed in: xkeyboard-config
   Status: Invalid = Confirmed

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[Ubuntu-x-swat] [Bug 418939] Re: Too many crimean tatar keyboard layouts added for Romania

2011-02-25 Thread Bug Watch Updater
** Changed in: xkeyboard-config
   Status: Unknown = Invalid

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[Ubuntu-x-swat] [Bug 418939] Re: Too many crimean tatar keyboard layouts added for Romania

2011-02-03 Thread Bug Watch Updater
** Changed in: xkeyboard-config
   Importance: Unknown = Medium

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[Ubuntu-x-swat] [Bug 418939] Re: Too many crimean tatar keyboard layouts added for Romania

2011-01-25 Thread Bug Watch Updater
** Changed in: xkeyboard-config
   Importance: Medium = Unknown

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[Ubuntu-x-swat] [Bug 418939] Re: Too many crimean tatar keyboard layouts added for Romania

2010-12-15 Thread Sorin Paliga
So:
1. People commenting here basically agree with the idea that the 
politically-based architecture of Linux keyboard layouts is not good, and that 
it should be done more flexible. If this is not obvious if referring to modern, 
contemporary languages, it all becomes clear if we wish to add extinct and / or 
classical languages, which are not politically-based keylayouts, as the ones 
mentioned.
2. Something must be also done with (and for) such isolated keylayouts like 
Crimean Tartar even if, frankly, I still cannot see the argument for placing 
them under Romanian! (Crimean Tartar is indeed an Altaic language akin to 
Mongolian and to all other Altaic languages, going as far as—very 
probably—Korean and Japanese as a very remote expression of an easternmost 
expansion of the Altaic group). Note: I do not have close contacts with Tartars 
in Dobrudja, I once had, but—frankly—I doubt any of them, even if close to me 
in this moment, may be of any help here. But I assume that those who created 
those keylayous must have had some contacts, otherwise I cannot imagine a 
scenario that they put the keylayouts there without having any contact with the 
issue. Or am I wrong here? Or adding keylayouts in Linux is like a political 
dance? This problem is NOT a political one and I regret noting that, in time, 
Linux developers lost the initial philosophy: simple, free, flexible. 
3. Adding too many variants under a basic, reference variant is not a good 
idea, because to many people this may be confusing. There should be 1-3 
variants at the most, exceptionally more, but adding additional keylayouts 
should be simple and flexible, ideally Mac OS style or any similar simple 
method. Also, a simple to use keylayout creator, similar to UKELELE, should be 
implemented, together with a simple way for installing the keylayouts. THIS 
would solve many issues, allowing users to create / adapt existing keylayouts 
for specific needs.

Let us move at least one step forward with solutions. I for one have my
solutions for Mac OS, am not technically competent here, but am ready to
discuss and suggest methods based on what I know.

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[Ubuntu-x-swat] [Bug 418939] Re: Too many crimean tatar keyboard layouts added for Romania

2010-12-13 Thread Sorin Paliga
Does anyone read this? Is there a reaction to the ideas exchanged here?
Is there an admin of this discussion? Just to know whether it makes
sense to continue watching this thread.

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[Ubuntu-x-swat] [Bug 418939] Re: Too many crimean tatar keyboard layouts added for Romania

2010-12-13 Thread Lucian Adrian Grijincu
1. you should comment on the upstream bug:
http://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=23544

This is not a Ubuntu specific bug and it just tracks the status of the
one upstream. Also fixing this in Ubuntu is not recommended as hardly
any other distro will get the fix from Ubuntu.

2. The upstream maintainer agreed that 4 layouts may be a bit too much
for a community of less than 25000 people making  0.1 of the population
and I tried to find some Tatars to see if one of the layouts was good
enough or if they can be amended to contain the Tatar-specific letters
and the Romanian ones so that they'll be able to write correctly in both
languages without needing to switch between keyboard layouts.

Unfortunately I only found one Tatar ethnic and he wasn't writing
anything in Tatar on the computer and could not help me in this regard.
To be noted: he wasn't even aware of keyboard layouts for Romanian
either and was not using Romanian diacritics to write Romanian texts.

Sorin: you mention having some Tatar contacts. Could you please contact them 
and see whether we can define a single keyboard layout that would either:
a) be enough for both their Tatar and Romanian texts
b) be enough for their Tatar texts

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[Ubuntu-x-swat] [Bug 418939] Re: Too many crimean tatar keyboard layouts added for Romania

2010-12-13 Thread Reşat SABIQ
For starters, Crimean Tatar isn't really related to Mongolian. Mongols
in related territories got assimilated, and their language hasn't had a
major influence on Turk(ic) languages: although some words from
Mongolian have been adopted and are in use. Now to the issue at hand.

 To a large extent, this issue is connected to the entirely wrong
approach of keylayouts in Linux (am a Mac OS user, and creator of
several keylayouts for Romanian—several variants, Old Italic, Old Church
Slavonic, Czech. So, I feel competent to speak about this issue (see
http://www.unibuc.ro/ro/cd_sorpaliga_ro , the English page seems to be
under revision). Linux distros deal with political entities, and then
places keylayouts under countries / states, an entirely wrong view, even
if, of course, covering a reality. But what happens with those
situations when there is no state there? What about Old Church Slavonic,
Old Italic / Etruscan, Gothic etc. etc. Shall we randomly put them under
a certain pretext?

 And, very briefly: the long-standing improvised solution of keyboard
layouts in Linux, so rigid and so impossible to modify (as in Mac OS,
using either Alex Eulenberg’s site or John Brownies’s UKELELE) is the
main reason why linux cannot be efficiently used in foreign language
teaching and never in dealing with special situations like old languages
like Old church Slavonic, Old Italic / Etruscan, Gothic etc. etc.
because is a tantalizing cause to try to create your keylayouts in
linux. This is, in fact, the essence of the discussion

I agree with these 2 quotes. I have expressed similar, if not the exact
same, opinions in this regard. The issue is not with Crimean Tatar
layouts, but with the design pushed by 1 or 2 people (without any
discussion). The design is based on political entities, rather than
linguistics, thus stirring unnecessary inter-ethnic conflicts. No other
OS has such a politicized keyboard layout approach. The only reason it
is still flying in Linux, is because there hasn't been any discussion
about the design: the decisions have been made by 1 or 2 people without
any open public discussion. Well, it is obvious that political entities
have no place in software: so they have to be removed, leaving only
linguistic considerations.

I personally do not accept the superiority of an opinion of 1 maintainer (who 
is in fact a subject of a country that has been torturing languages for 
centuries). If 1 such person is stonewalling a proper design for keyboard 
layouts, it would be totally OK from my viewpoint to do any of the following:
a. overrule such an opinion
b. provide patches for Ubuntu and see what the Ubuntu community thinks about 
it: if it goes through in Ubuntu, there's a chance other distros will pick a 
more logical approach as well (this would be OK initially, but in longer term 
would probably necessitate c.)
c. branch xkeyboard-config project into a new open source project that is free 
from political entities and considerations, and based solely on linguistics and 
informatics

The alternatives to fixing the real issue mentioned here, involving
deleting Crimean Tatar layouts, would be an unacceptable bigorty from my
viewpoint, and will only waste people's time. This sounds to me like
fixing a symptom, instead of root cause: one could look up some tragic
examples of these kinds of mistaken approaches from medical science.

Sorin, i would recommend resolving the design issues, which are also
pertaining to examples that you mentioned, like Old church Slavonic, Old
Italic / Etruscan, Gothic, etc. Once politics is removed from design,
the matter will be solved entirely, in its root cause, and will take
care of future other similar cases.

Regards.

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[Ubuntu-x-swat] [Bug 418939] Re: Too many crimean tatar keyboard layouts added for Romania

2010-12-13 Thread Reşat SABIQ
1. I have mentioned this upstream earlier, but here's an example of a
logical locale-based approach to layouts:

-Language1
 |__ Common Layout1
 |__ Common Layout2
 |__ Common Layout3
-Language2
 |__ Common Layout1
 |__ Common Layout2
 |__ Country1
  |__Country1-specific layout1
  |__Country1-specific layout2
 |__ Country2
  |__Country2-specific layout1
  |__Country2-specific layout2
+Language3

This is a mockup of a tree, with 2 recursively expanded nodes, and 1
collapsed node. E.g., by Common Layoutx, i really mean Langy Common
Layoutx, but it was getting too verbose, so it's implied...

And, in terms of implementations, as i've mentioned before, i believe 
locale-based files would be ideal:
lang1
lang2
lang2-Country1
lang2-Country2
lang3
and so on.

Furthermore, the UI implementation could provide a country-list for
filtering. If somebody needs US-specific layouts, the filter could
display all languages with US-specific layouts (filtering non-US
specific layouts for a matching language out, maybe with an option of
filtering them back in)...

2. Alternatively, there could simply be a single list of locales, just
as the implementation files above, and once a locale is chosen, all
layouts for it are shown, including common ones, if they aren't
overriden. This would also be a very clean approach.

Anyway, i don't have much time for this: this is just a few quick
thoughts on the matter. This is the kind of discussion that needs to
take place. Mac and Windows need to be analyzed to take the best from
them, and improve further...

Regards.

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[Ubuntu-x-swat] [Bug 418939] Re: Too many crimean tatar keyboard layouts added for Romania

2010-12-10 Thread Sorin Paliga
As I was one of those, who triggered the discussion, even if not directly, I am 
compelled to make some clarifications. So: ‘t's about Romanian users being 
exposed to layouts for languages they don't have any interest in seeing (or 
even, apparently, which they would rather not see)’. No, this is NOT a 
political issue, it has nothing to do with tolerance, with human rights and 
with minority issues. It has to do WITH CORRECTNESS of a linguistic issue 
connected to a keyboard layout, nothing more.
As a linguist and a person who speaks several languages, and—even if not 
familiar with Altaic languages—I feel at home with linguistics at large.
To a large extent, this issue is connected to the entirely wrong approach of 
keylayouts in Linux (am a Mac OS user, and creator of several keylayouts for 
Romanian—several variants, Old Italic, Old Church Slavonic, Czech. So, I feel 
competent to speak about this issue (see 
http://www.unibuc.ro/ro/cd_sorpaliga_ro , the English page seems to be under 
revision). Linux distros deal with political entities, and then places 
keylayouts under countries / states, an entirely wrong view, even if, of 
course, covering a reality. But what happens with those situations when there 
is no state there? What about Old Church Slavonic, Old Italic / Etruscan, 
Gothic etc. etc. Shall we randomly put them under a certain pretext?
The four or five Crimean Tatar keylayouts under Romanian is a total absurdity. 
It is true that there is a Tartar minority in Dobrudja, respected as human 
beings (I know some of them personally, my wife worked with them for 2 years). 
What has this to do with putting those unhappy keylayouts under Romania?
Do something, find something more intelligent than this really bad solution. Be 
constructive, use your inteliigence in order to achieve a superior way of 
thinking and do remove those keylayouts from there. They are entirely useless. 
And note that they are badly put there not because I / we do not want to see 
them there, but because their location should not be there. As Tartar is an 
Altaic language, until you find a more generic and more flexible solution, 
their place may be under Turkey or Mongolia or anything similar. This is not an 
ideal solution either, I agree, but it has at least a minimum of a logical 
approach.

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[Ubuntu-x-swat] [Bug 418939] Re: Too many crimean tatar keyboard layouts added for Romania

2010-12-10 Thread Sorin Paliga
And, very briefly: the long-standing improvised solution of keyboard
layouts in Linux, so rigid and so impossible to modify (as in Mac OS,
using either Alex Eulenberg’s site or John Brownies’s UKELELE) is the
main reason why linux cannot be efficiently used in foreign language
teaching and never in dealing with special situations like old languages
like Old church Slavonic, Old Italic / Etruscan, Gothic etc. etc.
because is a tantalizing cause to try to create your keylayouts in
linux. This is, in fact, the essence of the discussion, not those badly
put Tartar kaylayouts under Romania, disregarding who had in fact this
eerie, whimsical idea.

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[Ubuntu-x-swat] [Bug 418939] Re: Too many crimean tatar keyboard layouts added for Romania

2010-02-16 Thread Bug Watch Updater
** Changed in: xkeyboard-config
   Status: Confirmed = Invalid

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[Ubuntu-x-swat] [Bug 418939] Re: Too many crimean tatar keyboard layouts added for Romania

2009-12-24 Thread Bryce Harrington
Thanks for forwarding this issue upstream and engaging with suv on it.
I am of the feeling that this is really rather an upstream decision, and
not of high enough criticality (compared with X crashes and so on) that
we need to take action in the distro, thus I'm marking it wontfix.  We
will take whatever solution is arrived at upstream when we merge in the
latest xkeyboard-config package.  Thanks for working on this issue and
helping to make xkeyboard-config optimal for everyone.

** Changed in: xkeyboard-config (Ubuntu)
   Status: Confirmed = Won't Fix

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[Ubuntu-x-swat] [Bug 418939] Re: Too many crimean tatar keyboard layouts added for Romania

2009-08-28 Thread Sergiu Bivol
+1 for moving the keyboard layouts to Ukraine, since there are 10 times more 
Crimean Tatars than in Romania.
Please keep in mind that the Romanian keyboards are also meant for use in the 
Republic of Moldova, where is no [known] Crimean Tatar minority.

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[Ubuntu-x-swat] [Bug 418939] Re: Too many crimean tatar keyboard layouts added for Romania

2009-08-28 Thread Lucian Adrian Grijincu
I think you both got it wrong: xkeyboard-config groups layouts by country.
In our country there are many ethnic groups.
We should make their life easier and help them write in Romanian and their 
native language without much effort.

What I think is wrong is the number of keyboard layouts for 24.000
Tatars - one for every 6.000, and if we consider Linux users are 1% of
computer users and all consider that all Romanians use a computer (which
is evidently false) we have one keyboard layout for less than 60 Tatars.

I think we can accommodate all 240 Linux using Tatars in one single
keyboard layout.

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[Ubuntu-x-swat] [Bug 418939] Re: Too many crimean tatar keyboard layouts added for Romania

2009-08-27 Thread Adi Roiban
Bhavani, Reşat what is your point of view regarding this issues. Please
let us know!

Looking at the wikipedia article about Crimean Tatars, we should add the
layouts to Ukraine, as Ukraine is hosting the majority of Crimean Tatars

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimean_Tatars

In Romania we have a small number of tatars and if we are going to add
specific keyboard for each minority we will end up with a list of about
30 layouts.

Anyhow, grouping layout by Contry is not the right thing to do and
layouts are associated with languages and not countries.

My vote is for having the Crimean Tatars layout for Ukraine.

Cheers,

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[Ubuntu-x-swat] [Bug 418939] Re: Too many crimean tatar keyboard layouts added for Romania

2009-08-27 Thread Lucian Adrian Grijincu
** Bug watch added: freedesktop.org Bugzilla #23544
   https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=23544

** Also affects: xkeyboard-config via
   https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=23544
   Importance: Unknown
   Status: Unknown

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Too many crimean tatar keyboard layouts added for Romania
https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/418939
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which is subscribed to xkeyboard-config in ubuntu.

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[Ubuntu-x-swat] [Bug 418939] Re: Too many crimean tatar keyboard layouts added for Romania

2009-08-27 Thread Bug Watch Updater
** Changed in: xkeyboard-config
   Status: Unknown = Confirmed

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Too many crimean tatar keyboard layouts added for Romania
https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/418939
You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu-X,
which is subscribed to xkeyboard-config in ubuntu.

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[Ubuntu-x-swat] [Bug 418939] Re: Too many crimean tatar keyboard layouts added for Romania

2009-08-25 Thread Lucian Adrian Grijincu
I've notified Bhavani Shankar and Reşat SABIQ because they introduced
the four new keyboard layouts for Romanian Crimean Tatars and they
should know best how to proceed with this issue.

** Changed in: xkeyboard-config (Ubuntu)
   Status: New = Confirmed

-- 
Too many crimean tatar keyboard layouts added for Romania
https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/418939
You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu-X,
which is subscribed to xkeyboard-config in ubuntu.

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More help   : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp