ugnet_: Theyre corrupt because theyre poor; dictators because theyre not democrats
Ear to The Ground By Charles Onyango-Obbo Theyre corrupt because theyre poor; dictators because theyre not democratsOct 15, 2003 We continue to desperately look for the answers. Why is corruption so high, especially among key politicians and cronies of the rulers in Uganda? And why is our country that had a revolution in 1986 and saw dramatic improvements in life and the economy up until about 1998, sliding back into oppressive government? Why is the independent Uganda press under the boot again? In short, why has the attempt at democracy in Uganda failed? The search for insights first took me to a dear friend, who offered an explanation that came to him after he finished reading an autobiography by Zubeida Jaffer (an anti-apartheid South African journalist) and an encounter with Elinor Sisulu. Elinor has just won the Noma award for her biography of Walter and Albertina Sisulu, her parents in-law. His impression is that in contrast to these people, most of the leaders who are shaping the political destiny of Uganda today are just pseudo-revolutionaries. Or better still, fakes. He writes that; the high ideals, deep morality, humility and simplicity that defines these amazing people who paid such a high price for freedom, is in very sharp contrast to your President Yoweri Musevenis ways of doing things. My friend is a scholar of African affairs, and visited Uganda when the African National Congress forces were based in Luwero during the last years of apartheid. He says he fears that; In Uganda, Museveni [and elements in the military and Movement faction that are close to him] has personally appropriated everything good and noble in Ugandas post-colonial history. Museveni has dominated political space and continues to shape and define political discourse. The result is that political culture is a mirror image of himself and his faction - it is imperial, violent, and nearly decadent. Corruption in Uganda has the same root causes with greedy government in most of Africa, where he observes: there is an obsession with becoming wealthy and living in excessive (but tasteless) comfort, something that comes with a late escape from poverty! The debates have become more and more shallow, parochial, cynical (what hard-line Movementists call pragmatic) and retrogressive. The point here being that the parents of most of Ugandas leaders (and us their subjects) and top bureaucrats were either poor, or if they were rich were only the first generation to live in wealth. This late escape from poverty inclines us to rob taxpayers. (If you think of it, apart from the Kulubyas, there are possibly no more than three Ugandan families that have had money consistently for two generations i.e. 70 years). Yet, while this gives us a good view of the underbelly of the corruption beast, it leaves unanswered the question why democracy hasnt resulted in more freedom and enlightened governance in the end. Instead, it is degenerating in less freedom. To this, I found an answer from a diplomat who told me hes struck by how Latin American countries have not, as has happened in several parts of Africa, slid back into dictatorship even in the midst of the regions economic crisis. He has developed his theory of dictatorship by democracy. This, he told me, is the situation where the government uses democratic forms to carry out anti-democratic actions. Thus the press is free in practice, but the repressive media laws remain in the statute books and, more importantly, the government ignores what it reports. A government appoints a human rights commission, and passes laws that offer more liberties, but in practice it acts in violation of these same rights. When its put to task by Human Rights Watch or Amnesty International, it points to the free press, and human rights laws as evidence that the accusations of it being a dictatorship are unfounded. Political parties might have rights under the constitution, but there isnt an enabling law allowing them to be freely active, and the Police routinely deny them permission to assemble. And, of course, the Military Police is sent in to disperse their rallies. An anti-corruption body like the Inspectorate of Government is set up, but corruption continues and it can only investigate those who are not well connected or politicians who have fallen out of favour. When the big people are caught stealing, they say; how can you say we are thieves and condone corruption when we are the people who set up the IGG? Sound familiar? Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] © 2003 The Monitor Publications Gook "You can't separate peace from freedom because no one can be at peace unless he has his freedom."- Malcom X STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* This service is hosted on the Infocom network http://www.infocom.co.ug
ugnet_: Theyre corrupt because theyre poor; dictators because theyre not democrats
I had always taken Bro Charles Onyango-Obbo to be a dyed in the wool apologist for our two tin-pot criminal dictators, Kagame and m7. He seems to have got fed up somewhere along the way. Wellcome aboard dear friend. For the first time he is even mentioning the likes of Robert Mangaliso Sobukwe; dirty words in the crowd of the West's darlings like N. Mandela of the new breed of African 'leaders'. Have you ever heard the ANC and Mandela acknoweldge the presence of others on Robben Island? Sobukwe? Never. In Canada, we have the case of Dr Muniini-Mulera. For over 10 years he had a mu7 fawning gang that you crossed only at your peril. They even had a local weekly to drum into our thick heads the vitures of 'fundamental change'. But below the surface it was clear the base was 'we Southerners vs they'. You became a curiosity if you refused to fit. 'Hey you are from the South aren't you?', was a constant. I don't know why Dr Muniini-Mulera changed, or even whether he really changed. mu7 has not become any worse than he ever was. Now you hear that 'Baganda' have been indifferent to the suffering in the North. When Hon Nuwa Amanya Mushega was still Min of Ed, he told a crowd in Toronto that NRM was rebuilding the country, which had been ruined by Baganda. I cried out. It was fellow Baganda who said I was putting them to shame for my vehment disgust. The only sympathy I got was from a lady from West Nile!! Hopefully after 17 years fellow Ugandans have seen the real mu7. But that is an awfully long time. Imagine the cost. The blood of all those fellow Africans. Men women and children!! ~~ Ear to The Ground By Charles Onyango-Obbo Theyre corrupt because theyre poor; dictators because theyre not democrats Oct 15, 2003 We continue to desperately look for the answers. Why is corruption so high, especially among key politicians and cronies of the rulers in Uganda? And why is our country that had a revolution in 1986 and saw dramatic improvements in life and the economy up until about 1998, sliding back into oppressive government? Why is the independent Uganda press under the boot again? In short, why has the attempt at democracy in Uganda failed? The search for insights first took me to a dear friend, who offered an explanation that came to him after he finished reading an autobiography by Zubeida Jaffer (an anti-apartheid South African journalist) and an encounter with Elinor Sisulu. Elinor has just won the Noma award for her biography of Walter and Albertina Sisulu, her parents in-law. His impression is that in contrast to these people, most of the leaders who are shaping the political destiny of Uganda today are just pseudo-revolutionaries. Or better still, fakes. He writes that; the high ideals, deep morality, humility and simplicity that defines these amazing people who paid such a high price for freedom, is in very sharp contrast to your President Yoweri Musevenis ways of doing things. My friend is a scholar of African affairs, and visited Uganda when the African National Congress forces were based in Luwero during the last years of apartheid. He says he fears that; In Uganda, Museveni [and elements in the military and Movement faction that are close to him] has personally appropriated everything good and noble in Ugandas post-colonial history. Museveni has dominated political space and continues to shape and define political discourse. The result is that political culture is a mirror image of himself and his faction - it is imperial, violent, and nearly decadent. Corruption in Uganda has the same root causes with greedy government in most of Africa, where he observes: there is an obsession with becoming wealthy and living in excessive (but tasteless) comfort, something that comes with a late escape from poverty! The debates have become more and more shallow, parochial, cynical (what hard-line Movementists call pragmatic) and retrogressive. The point here being that the parents of most of Ugandas leaders (and us their subjects) and top bureaucrats were either poor, or if they were rich were only the first generation to live in wealth. This late escape from poverty inclines us to rob taxpayers. (If you think of it, apart from the Kulubyas, there are possibly no more than three Ugandan families that have had money consistently for two generations i.e. 70 years). Yet, while this gives us a good view of the underbelly of the corruption beast, it leaves unanswered the question why democracy hasnt resulted in more freedom and enlightened governance in the end. Instead, it is degenerating in less freedom. To this, I found an answer from a diplomat who told me hes struck by how Latin American countries have not, as has happened in several parts of Africa, slid back into dictatorship even in the midst of the regions economic crisis. He has d
Re: ugnet_: Theyre corrupt because theyre poor; dictators because theyre not democrats
Mitayo,I am beginning to doubt your being what you say you are because,to the Musaazis,the Kirondes ,the Lutimbas and their cohorts, Mu7 was,has been ,is and will forever be the best thing that Ugandans ever since the late Sir Frederick Edward Mukabya Mutesa II(RIP) had in the entire decades it has existed. Now you are appearing to talk like Mulindwa the nubian alias acholi alias biological substance talks especially regarding Buganda whose citizens have been having sound sleep ever since the Prince of Peace,none other than the celebrated and certified thief and mass murderer Mu7,ushered "peace" through killing countless number of people opposed to him,in Uganda. Mitayo,wa Nywedde Kyi?.How come you have all these 18 years not been seeing Mu7 as a saviour for Uganda and Buganda in particular?Are you,a UPC sell out?.It is only disgruntled UPCs like those biological substances from the North and Eastern Uganda who keep villifying Mu7 because they are defeated forces who are yearning for "lost"glory,the very glory that Buganda has had since time immemorial!.The wonders that Mu7 has brought to Uganda has to be recited and regurgitated all the time and in all places,in the valleys,over the Mountains,in the high seas and on land so that even those hard in hearing can hear. Brother Mitayo,I pray that you reconsider your stated stand about Mu7 and his very illustrous achievements for Uganda and Buganda in particular.Have you just forgotten that he has made Professor Gilbert Bukenya,a Vice President so that Bukenya can "cook" Federalism for Buganda?.That is why we have only to praise Mu7 and villify all what all others before him did,for those others did not do so much for (B)Uganda. Brother Mitayo,I hope you will make amends with Brothers Musaazi, Kironde,Lutimba Matovu,Kasangwawo and others before you are bannished from the "Obuganda". People like Minnini Kahangane Mulera belong in their own class of opportunists.When homeboy,Kiiza Besigye was contesting for the big chair,the principle was"Empiisi 'yo waanyu"Akurya Nga.So that was the big about turn for the good Dr.Many of us were not surprised because with what has happened in Uganda,even when I meet a dog that talks to me,or better still some swine that wants to engage me in a conversation, I will not be surprised because under the sun in Uganda everything and anything is possible. Brother Mitayo,I do not want to harrass you more than this but beg to stop here and wish you a wonderful and thoughtful night over this unprecedented position that you appear to take against the flow of the wind. Thank you. Akuume. Kipenji. == Mitayo Potosi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: I had always taken Bro Charles Onyango-Obbo to be a dyed in the wool apologist for our two tin-pot criminal dictators, Kagame and m7.He seems to have got fed up somewhere along the way. Wellcome aboard dear friend.For the first time he is even mentioning the likes of Robert Mangaliso Sobukwe; dirty words in the crowd of the West's darlings like N. Mandela of the new breed of African 'leaders'.Have you ever heard the ANC and Mandela acknoweldge the presence of others on Robben Island? Sobukwe? Never.In Canada, we have the case of Dr Muniini-Mulera. For over 10 years he had a mu7 fawning gang that you crossed only at your peril. They even had a local weekly to drum into our thick heads the vitures of 'fundamental change'.But below the surface it was clear the base was 'we Southerners vs they'. You became a curiosity if you refused to fit. 'Hey you are from the South aren't you?', was a constant.I don't know why Dr Muniini-Mulera changed, or even whether he really changed. mu7 has not become any worse than he ever was.Now you hear that 'Baganda' have been indifferent to the suffering in the North.When Hon Nuwa Amanya Mushega was still Min of Ed, he told a crowd in Toronto that NRM was rebuilding the country, which had been ruined by Baganda. I cried out. It was fellow Baganda who said I was putting them to shame for my vehment disgust. The only sympathy I got was from a lady from West Nile!!Hopefully after 17 years fellow Ugandans have seen the real mu7. But that is an awfully long time. Imagine the cost. The blood of all those fellow Africans. Men women and children!!~~Ear to The Ground By Charles Onyango-ObboTheyre corrupt because theyre poor; dictators because theyre not democratsOct 15, 2003We continue to desperately look for the answers. Why is corruption so high, especially among key politicians and cronies of the rulers in Uganda?And why is our country that had a revolution in 1986 and saw dramatic improvements in life and the economy up until about 1998, sliding back into oppressive government?Why is the independent Uganda press under the boot again? In short, why has the attempt at democracy in Uganda failed?The search for insights first took me to a dea
Re: ugnet_: Theyre corrupt because theyre poor; dictators because theyre not democrats
Kipenji, this is tribalist filth ! For you to group people together on the basis of their ethnic origin and attempt to convince netters that we all think the same, is nonsensical to say the least. You have been on this list for some time and should have been aware of the different views we have on the NRM, the politics in Uganda in general, etc. I therefore dismiss your allegations below with the contempt they deserve. Satire, my a My permanent disagreement with Mulindwa is not about whether Mu7 is good or not. It is about his blaming everything that has gone wrong in Uganda on Baganda (plus of course his opinion that Obote is an angel). In fact his standpoint is very tribalistic. As for the nubian thing, I was not the source of that information, it came straight from Toronto where Mulindwa resides. The Bukenya issue is a non-starter. The only opinions I've seen from Baganda on this issue were all critical and your attempt to present this as if we all agree with him is just crap. Your pal Mulindwa even forwarded to this forum one such contribution from FedsNet (although this was done with his own motives). You should therefore stop patronizing us by thinking that you UPC people are the only ones who know what is going on in Uganda or the only ones who are capable of analysing the situation. All in all, this was a lot of baloney. I just want to caution you to stop talking about things you don't know. 'Obuganda' involves a lot of behavioural norms which you, as a non-Muganda, won't be aware of. If I were you I wouldn't just throw around terms whose meaning I'm not really acquainted with. Kasangwawo From: Owor Kipenji <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: ugnet_: Theyre corrupt because theyre poor; dictators because theyre not democrats Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 02:16:54 +0100 (BST) Mitayo,I am beginning to doubt your being what you say you are because,to the Musaazis,the Kirondes ,the Lutimbas and their cohorts, Mu7 was,has been ,is and will forever be the best thing that Ugandans ever since the late Sir Frederick Edward Mukabya Mutesa II(RIP) had in the entire decades it has existed. Now you are appearing to talk like Mulindwa the nubian alias acholi alias biological substance talks especially regarding Buganda whose citizens have been having sound sleep ever since the Prince of Peace,none other than the celebrated and certified thief and mass murderer Mu7,ushered "peace" through killing countless number of people opposed to him,in Uganda. Mitayo,wa Nywedde Kyi?.How come you have all these 18 years not been seeing Mu7 as a saviour for Uganda and Buganda in particular?Are you,a UPC sell out?.It is only disgruntled UPCs like those biological substances from the North and Eastern Uganda who keep villifying Mu7 because they are defeated forces who are yearning for "lost"glory,the very glory that Buganda has had since time immemorial!.The wonders that Mu7 has brought to Uganda has to be recited and regurgitated all the time and in all places,in the valleys,over the Mountains,in the high seas and on land so that even those hard in hearing can hear. Brother Mitayo,I pray that you reconsider your stated stand about Mu7 and his very illustrous achievements for Uganda and Buganda in particular.Have you just forgotten that he has made Professor Gilbert Bukenya,a Vice President so that Bukenya can "cook" Federalism for Buganda?.That is why we have only to praise Mu7 and villify all what all others before him did,for those others did not do so much for (B)Uganda. Brother Mitayo,I hope you will make amends with Brothers Musaazi, Kironde,Lutimba Matovu,Kasangwawo and others before you are bannished from the "Obuganda". People like Minnini Kahangane Mulera belong in their own class of opportunists.When homeboy,Kiiza Besigye was contesting for the big chair,the principle was"Empiisi 'yo waanyu"Akurya Nga.So that was the big about turn for the good Dr.Many of us were not surprised because with what has happened in Uganda,even when I meet a dog that talks to me,or better still some swine that wants to engage me in a conversation, I will not be surprised because under the sun in Uganda everything and anything is possible. Brother Mitayo,I do not want to harrass you more than this but beg to stop here and wish you a wonderful and thoughtful night over this unprecedented position that you appear to take against the flow of the wind. Thank you. Akuume. Kipenji. == Mitayo Potosi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: I had always taken Bro Charles Onyango-Obbo to be a dyed in the wool apologist for our two tin-pot criminal dictators, Kagame and m7. He seems to have got fed up somewhere along the way. Wellcome aboard dear friend. For the first time he is even mentioning the lik
Re: ugnet_: Theyre corrupt because theyre poor; dictators because theyre not democrats
Baloney is apparently your new treasure word.Could you please come up with others before you become more baloney yourself. You have no jurisdiction whatsoever to dismiss my assertion by merely reverting to your latest catch baloney,which for all intents and purposes is so primordial to say the least,but you need the intellectual wherewithal to provide the facts to the contrary. Everyone and everybody is innately a tribalist,it is however the extent to which they play out the tribal card that becomes a nauseant to others. Even the holy writ attests to that ,so stop this quasi nationalistic posture that you appear to have recently acquired so as to whitewash who you actually are.Secondly if that did not apply to you,you would not have predilected to mention it. Thank you. Wish you a tribalist full weekend. Akuume. Kipenji. ==jonah kasangwawo <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Kipenji,this is tribalist filth ! For you to group people together on the basis of their ethnic origin and attempt to convince netters that we all think the same, is nonsensical to say the least. You have been on this list for some time and should have been aware of the different views we have on the NRM, the politics in Uganda in general, etc. I therefore dismiss your allegations below with the contempt they deserve. Satire, my aMy permanent disagreement with Mulindwa is not about whether Mu7 is good or not. It is about his blaming everything that has gone wrong in Uganda on Baganda (plus of course his opinion that Obote is an angel). In fact his standpoint is very tribalistic. As for the nubian thing, I was not the source of that information, it came straight from Toronto where Mulindwa resides.The Bukenya issue is a non-starter. The only opinions I've seen from Baganda on this issue were all critical and your attempt to present this as if we all agree with him is just crap. Your pal Mulindwa even forwarded to this forum one such contribution from FedsNet (although this was done with his own motives). You should therefore stop patronizing us by thinking that you UPC people are the only ones who know what is going on in Uganda or the only ones who are capable of analysing the situation.All in all, this was a lot of baloney. I just want to caution you to stop talking about things you don't know. 'Obuganda' involves a lot of behavioural norms which you, as a non-Muganda, won't be aware of.If I were you I wouldn't just throw around terms whose meaning I'm not really acquainted with.Kasangwawo>From: Owor Kipenji <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>>Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]>To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]>Subject: Re: ugnet_: Theyre corrupt because theyre poor; dictators >because theyre not democrats>Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 02:16:54 +0100 (BST)>>Mitayo,I am beginning to doubt your being what you say you are because,to >the Musaazis,the Kirondes ,the Lutimbas and their cohorts,>Mu7 was,has been ,is and will forever be the best thing that Ugandans>ever since the late Sir Frederick Edward Mukabya Mutesa II(RIP) had>in the entire decades it has existed.>Now you are appearing to talk like Mulindwa the nubian alias acholi alias>biological substance talks especially regarding Buganda whose citizens>have been having sound sleep ever since the Prince of Peace,none other>than the celebrated and certified thief and mass murderer Mu7,ushered>"peace" through killing countless number of people opposed to him,in>Uganda.>Mitayo,wa Nywedde Kyi?.How come you have all these 18 years not been >seeing Mu7 as a saviour for Uganda and Buganda in particular?Are you,a UPC >sell out?.It is only disgruntled UPCs like those biological substances from >the North and Eastern Uganda who keep villifying Mu7>because they are defeated forces who are yearning for "lost"glory,the very >glory that Buganda has had since time immemorial!.The wonders that Mu7 has >brought to Uganda has to be recited and regurgitated all the time and in >all places,in the valleys,over the Mountains,in the high seas and on land >so that even those hard in hearing can hear.>Brother Mitayo,I pray that you reconsider your stated stand about Mu7>and his very illustrous achievements for Uganda and Buganda in >particular.Have you just forgotten that he has made Professor Gilbert >Bukenya,a Vice President so that Bukenya can "cook" Federalism for>Buganda?.That is why we have only to praise Mu7 and villify all what all>others before him did,for those others did not do so much for (B)Uganda.>Brother Mitayo,I hope you will make amends with Brothers Musaazi,>Kironde,Lutimba Matovu,Kasangwawo and others before you are bannished from >the "Obuganda".>People like Minnini Kahangane Mulera belong in their own class of >opportunists.When homeboy,Kiiza Besigye was contesting for th
Re: ugnet_: Theyre corrupt because theyre poor; dictators because theyre not democrats
Kipenji, it seems strange that instead of addressing the content you decided to concentrate on one word I used for half of the posting. But even on that account you were wrong. I also used: filth, crap, nonsensical, to describe what you were saying. All I was saying was that although you succumbed to the temptation to put us in one group because we are Baganda (yes, you included my name that's why I responded) , we all have our own opinions about different things. This in no way negates my stand on the right of my ethnic group to self-determine. I don't know where I've taken a nationalistic posture, maybe you can concretely point it out to me. Kasangwawo From: Owor Kipenji <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: ugnet_: Theyre corrupt because theyre poor; dictators because theyre not democrats Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2003 14:28:50 +0100 (BST) Baloney is apparently your new treasure word.Could you please come up with others before you become more baloney yourself. You have no jurisdiction whatsoever to dismiss my assertion by merely reverting to your latest catch baloney,which for all intents and purposes is so primordial to say the least,but you need the intellectual wherewithal to provide the facts to the contrary. Everyone and everybody is innately a tribalist,it is however the extent to which they play out the tribal card that becomes a nauseant to others. Even the holy writ attests to that ,so stop this quasi nationalistic posture that you appear to have recently acquired so as to whitewash who you actually are.Secondly if that did not apply to you,you would not have predilected to mention it. Thank you. Wish you a tribalist full weekend. Akuume. Kipenji. == jonah kasangwawo <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Kipenji, this is tribalist filth ! For you to group people together on the basis of their ethnic origin and attempt to convince netters that we all think the same, is nonsensical to say the least. You have been on this list for some time and should have been aware of the different views we have on the NRM, the politics in Uganda in general, etc. I therefore dismiss your allegations below with the contempt they deserve. Satire, my a My permanent disagreement with Mulindwa is not about whether Mu7 is good or not. It is about his blaming everything that has gone wrong in Uganda on Baganda (plus of course his opinion that Obote is an angel). In fact his standpoint is very tribalistic. As for the nubian thing, I was not the source of that information, it came straight from Toronto where Mulindwa resides. The Bukenya issue is a non-starter. The only opinions I've seen from Baganda on this issue were all critical and your attempt to present this as if we all agree with him is just crap. Your pal Mulindwa even forwarded to this forum one such contribution from FedsNet (although this was done with his own motives). You should therefore stop patronizing us by thinking that you UPC people are the only ones who know what is going on in Uganda or the only ones who are capable of analysing the situation. All in all, this was a lot of baloney. I just want to caution you to stop talking about things you don't know. 'Obuganda' involves a lot of behavioural norms which you, as a non-Muganda, won't be aware of. If I were you I wouldn't just throw around terms whose meaning I'm not really acquainted with. Kasangwawo >From: Owor Kipenji >Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >Subject: Re: ugnet_: Theyre corrupt because theyre poor; dictators >because theyre not democrats >Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 02:16:54 +0100 (BST) > >Mitayo,I am beginning to doubt your being what you say you are because,to >the Musaazis,the Kirondes ,the Lutimbas and their cohorts, >Mu7 was,has been ,is and will forever be the best thing that Ugandans >ever since the late Sir Frederick Edward Mukabya Mutesa II(RIP) had >in the entire decades it has existed. >Now you are appearing to talk like Mulindwa the nubian alias acholi alias >biological substance talks especially regarding Buganda whose citizens >have been having sound sleep ever since the Prince of Peace,none other >than the celebrated and certified thief and mass murderer Mu7,ushered >"peace" through killing countless number of people opposed to him,in >Uganda. >Mitayo,wa Nywedde Kyi?.How come you have all these 18 years not been >seeing Mu7 as a saviour for Uganda and Buganda in particular?Are you,a UPC >sell out?.It is only disgruntled UPCs like those biological substances from >the North and Eastern Uganda who keep villifying Mu7 >because they are defeated forces who are yearning for "lost"glory,the very >glory that Buganda has had since time immemorial!.The wonders that Mu7 has >brought to Uganda has to b
Re: ugnet_: Theyre corrupt because theyre poor; dictators because theyre not democrats
Kasangwawo,it is not in my purview to indulge in this proxy intellectualism,that your sophistry is teteering to.Mine was not to crique your lexical aptitude but to bring to your attention that baloney is so prosaic that you should have long retired it. Like I stated,no human being(except for your Hero murderer and accomplished fraudstar/thief-Mu7) can and should deny the other their god given rights to self determination,be that at family,clan, tribe or any other level.Thus my assertion that we are all innately tribalist,except that we should not make our love for achieving our tribal centered objectives become a nauseant to others.So I do not see why you should imagine that I was in anyway preventing you and all those of like minds like you from doing what they wish to do. At the end of the day,however we must all take cognisance of the fact that we are invariably our brothers' keeper.Thus our actions however mundane should not trample on our brothers' toes. Thank you. Kipenji. == jonah kasangwawo <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Kipenji,it seems strange that instead of addressing the content you decided to concentrate on one word I used for half of the posting. But even on that account you were wrong. I also used: filth, crap, nonsensical, to describe what you were saying.All I was saying was that although you succumbed to the temptation to put us in one group because we are Baganda (yes, you included my name that's why I responded) , we all have our own opinions about different things. This in no way negates my stand on the right of my ethnic group to self-determine. I don't know where I've taken a nationalistic posture, maybe you can concretely point it out to me.Kasangwawo>From: Owor Kipenji <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>>Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]>To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]>Subject: Re: ugnet_: Theyre corrupt because theyre poor; dictators >because theyre not democrats>Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2003 14:28:50 +0100 (BST)>>Baloney is apparently your new treasure word.Could you please>come up with others before you become more baloney yourself.>You have no jurisdiction whatsoever to dismiss my assertion by>merely reverting to your latest catch baloney,which for all intents>and purposes is so primordial to say the least,but you need the>intellectual wherewithal to provide the facts to the contrary.>Everyone and everybody is innately a tribalist,it is however the>extent to which they play out the tribal card that becomes a nauseant>to others.>Even the holy writ attests to that ,so stop this quasi nationalistic >posture>that you appear to have recently acquired so as to whitewash who you>actually are.Secondly if that did not apply to you,you would not have>predilected to mention it.>Thank you.>Wish you a tribalist full weekend.>Akuume.>Kipenji.>==>>jonah kasangwawo <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote:>Kipenji,>>this is tribalist filth ! For you to group people together on the basis of>their ethnic origin and attempt to convince netters that we all think the>same, is nonsensical to say the least. You have been on this list for some>time and should have been aware of the different views we have on the NRM,>the politics in Uganda in general, etc. I therefore dismiss your>allegations below with the contempt they deserve. Satire, my a>>My permanent disagreement with Mulindwa is not about whether Mu7 is good or>not. It is about his blaming everything that has gone wrong in Uganda on>Baganda (plus of course his opinion that Obote is an angel). In fact his>standpoint is very tribalistic. As for the nubian thing, I was not the>source of that information, it came straight from Toronto where Mulindwa>resides.>>The Bukenya issue is a non-starter. The only opinions I've seen from >Baganda>on this issue were all critical and your attempt to present this as if we>all agree with him is just crap. Your pal Mulindwa even forwarded to this>forum one such contribution from FedsNet (although this was done with his>own motives). You should therefore stop patronizing us by thinking that you>UPC people are the only ones who know what is going on in Uganda or the >only>ones who are capable of analysing the situation.>>All in all, this was a lot of baloney. I just want to caution you to stop>talking about things you don't know. 'Obuganda' involves a lot of>behavioural norms which you, as a non-Muganda, won't be aware of.>If I were you I wouldn't just throw around terms whose meaning I'm not>really acquainted with.>>Kasangwawo>> >From: Owor Kipenji> >Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]> >To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]> >Subject: Re: ugnet_: Theyre corrupt because theyre poor; dictators&g
Re: ugnet_: Theyre corrupt because theyre poor; dictators because theyre not democrats
Kipenji, this is becoming a labyrinth ! You are just going round in circles. You asked me to come up with other words and I pointed out to you that I already had. But then you claim not to be criticizing my lexical aptitude ! Well !!! After that you repeat what I said about the right of my ethnic group to self-determination. Nothing new. You are lumbering around the periphery instead of addressing the core issue, and that is the fact that you grouped people together on an ethnic basis and assumed that they all have the same opinions. THAT is the issue. Kasangwawo From: Owor Kipenji <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: ugnet_: Theyre corrupt because theyre poor; dictators because theyre not democrats Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2003 22:17:45 +0100 (BST) Kasangwawo,it is not in my purview to indulge in this proxy intellectualism,that your sophistry is teteering to.Mine was not to crique your lexical aptitude but to bring to your attention that baloney is so prosaic that you should have long retired it. Like I stated,no human being(except for your Hero murderer and accomplished fraudstar/thief-Mu7) can and should deny the other their god given rights to self determination,be that at family,clan, tribe or any other level.Thus my assertion that we are all innately tribalist,except that we should not make our love for achieving our tribal centered objectives become a nauseant to others.So I do not see why you should imagine that I was in anyway preventing you and all those of like minds like you from doing what they wish to do. At the end of the day,however we must all take cognisance of the fact that we are invariably our brothers' keeper.Thus our actions however mundane should not trample on our brothers' toes. Thank you. Kipenji. == jonah kasangwawo <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Kipenji, it seems strange that instead of addressing the content you decided to concentrate on one word I used for half of the posting. But even on that account you were wrong. I also used: filth, crap, nonsensical, to describe what you were saying. All I was saying was that although you succumbed to the temptation to put us in one group because we are Baganda (yes, you included my name that's why I responded) , we all have our own opinions about different things. This in no way negates my stand on the right of my ethnic group to self-determine. I don't know where I've taken a nationalistic posture, maybe you can concretely point it out to me. Kasangwawo >From: Owor Kipenji >Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >Subject: Re: ugnet_: Theyre corrupt because theyre poor; dictators >because theyre not democrats >Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2003 14:28:50 +0100 (BST) > >Baloney is apparently your new treasure word.Could you please >come up with others before you become more baloney yourself. >You have no jurisdiction whatsoever to dismiss my assertion by >merely reverting to your latest catch baloney,which for all intents >and purposes is so primordial to say the least,but you need the >intellectual wherewithal to provide the facts to the contrary. >Everyone and everybody is innately a tribalist,it is however the >extent to which they play out the tribal card that becomes a nauseant >to others. >Even the holy writ attests to that ,so stop this quasi nationalistic >posture >that you appear to have recently acquired so as to whitewash who you >actually are.Secondly if that did not apply to you,you would not have >predilected to mention it. >Thank you. >Wish you a tribalist full weekend. >Akuume. >Kipenji. >== > >jonah kasangwawo wrote: >Kipenji, > >this is tribalist filth ! For you to group people together on the basis of >their ethnic origin and attempt to convince netters that we all think the >same, is nonsensical to say the least. You have been on this list for some >time and should have been aware of the different views we have on the NRM, >the politics in Uganda in general, etc. I therefore dismiss your >allegations below with the contempt they deserve. Satire, my a > >My permanent disagreement with Mulindwa is not about whether Mu7 is good or >not. It is about his blaming everything that has gone wrong in Uganda on >Baganda (plus of course his opinion that Obote is an angel). In fact his >standpoint is very tribalistic. As for the nubian thing, I was not the >source of that information, it came straight from Toronto where Mulindwa >resides. > >The Bukenya issue is a non-starter. The only opinions I've seen from >Baganda >on this issue were all critical and your attempt to present this as if we >all agree with him is just crap. Your pal Mulindwa even forwarded to this >forum one
