Re: Sorting and German (was: Sorting and Volapük)
Kent Karlsson wrote [2012-01-02 22:03+0100]: Except that MacOS X *applications* (as apart from more POSIXy programs, and Terminal.app) should not use the POSIX locales, but should use the CLDR locales (via an Apple API or via ICU)... (Yes, I know, CLDR have POSIX locales format files covering **some** of the CLDR data...) Well, i've got good hardware and i've got a great operating system, but unfortunately my prepaid internet stick is dongled with software and that doesn't support the latter, but only a fruit ... and that (but i dunno) UTF-16 thing with the 2-byte wchar_t. (And to be honest - my beloved OS does not really support Unicode yet. Blow fish.) I don't know what you are talking about, vim(1) works fine even here. And ISO 8859-15? Really? I don't even find it in the list of encodings Terminal.app supports (but maybe that is just me not finding it). Terminal.app by default uses UTF-8. If our french friend wants to do some sorting, and doesn't have any programming capabilities (in which case i would point him to use perl(1), since those guys actually love Unicode - and even their users, too; maybe they make it and do completely penetrate the former, because they're real heroes), then $ LC_ALL=xy cut(1) colrm(1) sort(1) whatever_pipe should be a flexible way to sort data in the mentioned language, and which takes three button clicks only! (Applications - Utilities - Terminal.app == 3!!) And ISO 8859-15? Really? ,P But i admit, i use ':read !echo $LC_ALL' - en_GB.UTF-8, and i'm a fanatic fan of Unicode, not at last since it enables me to use my Klingon mother tongue here on earth, and with vim(1)!! And the € sign is just working, so nobody can tell lies about political pressure or even power politics or similar PP. Maybe the plain C standard, which is about to cover a garbage collector and a graphical user interface (C 2013.42), will also offer a graphical dialog box where users can directly fine-tune all behaviours of character data. That would be nice, and a real improvement. No, our french friend will need additional data from http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/cvsweb.cgi/src/share/mklocale/ anyway, and the UTF-8 data can be downloaded from just the very same locations, if necessary. I introduced the missing colldef(1) part and some locations were he can download the necessary locale sources from. For free. But with some effort. P.S.: And one thing i really need to add. That Ecartis mailing list manager does not conform to any just any standard. Since *decades* there are RFC 934 and RFC 1153, and it gives a PEEP. And it even seems to mess up 'From 's. That doesn't say anything about Unicode itself, though. Have a good time. --steffen
Re: Upside Down Fu character
There are really three choices: 1) Don't encode it at all and rely on higher-level protocols to display it. (After all, it's only used in specialized contexts and does not have a distinct meaning or pronunciation from the regular 福.) 2) Use a registered ideographic variation sequence to support it. (This is really a variation of #1.) 3) Add it to UTR #45 and submit it to the IRG for inclusion in Extension F. My own feeling is that either #1 or #2 would be best, given its specialized nature. On 2011年12月30日, at 上午8:34, Andre Schappo wrote: The character 福 means happiness http://www.mdbg.net/chindict/chindict.php?page=chardictcdcanoce=0cdqchi=福 Unicode entry: U+798F CJK UNIFIED IDEOGRAPH-798F It is customary to use an upside-down version of 福 during the Spring Festival http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fu_character I am considering proposing an upside-down version of 福 for inclusion in Unicode. Not sure where it should go. Maybe - Enclosed Ideographic Supplement Thoughts? André 小山 Schappo ❀❀ http://weibo.com/andreschappo http://blog.sina.com.cn/andreschappo http://twitter.com/andreschappo http://schappo.blogspot.com/ http://me2day.net/andreschappo
Re: Upside Down Fu character
On 3 Jan 2012, at 16:26, John H. Jenkins wrote: My own feeling is that either #1 or #2 would be best, given its specialized nature. I'd've gone for #3. The UCS has lots of specialized characters. Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com/
Re: Upside Down Fu character
Am Dienstag, 3. Januar 2012 um 17:26 schrieb John H. Jenkins: JHJ There are really three choices: JHJ 1) Don't encode it at all and rely on higher-level protocols to JHJ display it. (After all, it's only used in specialized contexts JHJ and does not have a distinct meaning or pronunciation from the regular 福.) JHJ 2) Use a registered ideographic variation sequence to support JHJ it. (This is really a variation of #1.) JHJ 3) Add it to UTR #45 and submit it to the IRG for inclusion in Extension F. There is also another choice as outlined in Andre Schappo's original mail: 4) Add it as a symbol (the Enclosed Ideographic Supplement block U+1F200...U+1F2FF may be an appropriate place, as it already contains a symbol at U+1F200 which is not literally enclosed). - Am Dienstag, 3. Januar 2012 um 17:44 schrieb Michael Everson: ME I'd've gone for #3. The UCS has lots of specialized characters. While I sympathize with the idea to get this character encoded, I doubt that an upside-down version of a CJK character can be a new CJK character by default, as not all strokes and radicals in the CJK Strokes and CJK Radicals Supplement blocks have their upside-down equivalents in these blocks. Based on this, in fact I would consider option #4 (but I am in no ways an expert on CJK characters). - Karl
Re: Upside Down Fu character
I would say to use higher level mark-up or images for this. I don't see any reason to start down the road of encoding upside down Chinese characters, or variation sequences, for such things. They are decorative anomalies, not plain text. Rick On 12/30/2011 7:34 AM, Andre Schappo wrote: The character 福 means happiness http://www.mdbg.net /chindict/chindict.php?page=chardictcdcanoce=0cdqchi=福 http://www.mdbg.net/chindict/chindict.php?page=chardictcdcanoce=0cdqchi=%E7%A6%8F Unicode entry: U+798F CJK UNIFIED IDEOGRAPH-798F It is customary to use an upside-down version of 福 during the Spring Festival http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fu_character
Re: Upside Down Fu character
On 3 Jan 2012, at 18:28, Rick McGowan wrote: I would say to use higher level mark-up or images for this. I don't see any reason to start down the road of encoding upside down Chinese characters, or variation sequences, for such things. They are decorative anomalies, not plain text. What's the inline markup for display this glyph upside down? Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com/
Re: Upside Down Fu character
Hi Andre, Does the upside down character ever appear in plain printed text (newspapers, books, fortune cookies), or only in drawings? Leo On Fri, Dec 30, 2011 at 7:34 AM, Andre Schappo a.scha...@lboro.ac.uk wrote: The character 福 means happiness http://www.mdbg.net/chindict/chindict.php?page=chardictcdcanoce=0cdqchi=福 Unicode entry: U+798F CJK UNIFIED IDEOGRAPH-798F It is customary to use an upside-down version of 福 during the Spring Festival http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fu_character I am considering proposing an upside-down version of 福 for inclusion in Unicode. Not sure where it should go. Maybe - Enclosed Ideographic Supplement Thoughts?
Re: Upside Down Fu character
Michael, What's the inline markup for display this glyph upside down? It doesn't really matter, and it would depend on the system anyway. My argument here is that this is a one-off need for some character in a specialized, decorative context. This upside-downness or rotation is not systematic in Chinese, nor part of a notational system. There is no need for this thing to be expressed inline in plain text at all. The one given example in the Wikipedia page, for example, is not textual, it is a paper decoration hung upside down. Rick
RE: Upside Down Fu character
I would say that semantically upside-down-fu would be as distinct and useful - even in plain text - as the average Enclosed Ideograph, and more so than all the z-variants of rightside-up-fu ... and probably more useful than the last many thousand encoded characters. The problem is not the upside-downness, it is that traditionally this character is *not* used within text at all, but rather posted on doors or walls. As such it has a vast variety of presentation forms, which may be sampled via image search on upside down fu. I don't see any way down that decorative path after assigning it just one codepoint. Fu (Good Fortune) on you, and 恭禧發財 , Zhou
Re: Upside Down Fu character
(12/01/04 2:46), Michael Everson wrote: What's the inline markup for display this glyph upside down Say, span style=display:inline-block; transform: rotate(180);福/span到了 for the Web. You need to prefix transform (-moz-, -webkit-, etc.) for the time being. (12/01/04 3:10), Leo Broukhis wrote: Hi Andre, Does the upside down character ever appear in plain printed text (newspapers, books, fortune cookies), or only in drawings? I am interested in the use case for such a character too. As a native Chinese speaker, I don't recall seeing any in plain printed text. (I can imagine creative novel writing using such a character but I just haven't seen any). For what's worth, the second most commonly used ideograph to be placed upside down would be 春（spring） CJK UNIFIED IDEOGRAPH-6625 If we are really adding this character, depending on the use cases, this character could probably go into the Emoji category and have a surrounding diamond, to symbolize the poster. See [1] for pictures of the posters. [1] https://www.google.com/search?q=%E6%98%A5%E8%81%AFhl=zh-TWsite=webhpprmd=imvnsfdsource=lnmstbm=ischei=11oDT7_wKK2aiAeu6JjEAQsa=Xoi=mode_linkct=modecd=2ved=0CBkQ_AUoAQbiw=1280bih=642 Cheers, Kenny -- W3C HTML5 Chinese Interest Group: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-ig-zh/
