Re: Indian new rupee sign

[Tulasi]

On 8/3/10, Mahesh T. Pai  wrote:
> Peter Constable said on Wed, Aug 04, 2010 at 01:09:32AM +,:
>  >
>  > > a claim of IPR of any kind, and unhindered use are incompatible.
>  >
>  > Are you saying that in your capacity as an IPR lawyer? ;-)
>
> No.  I am no longer a laweyr for past 5 years, I am in employment.
>
>  > If the owner of IP grants unhindered use, they are not incompatible.
>
> Definitely, you are correct.
>
> Question is, is such an explicit permission necessary?
>
> If I call myself "Mahesh", do I need to grant an explicit license to
> enable you to address me as  "Mahesh" in a public forum?
>
> If "Mahesh" was substituted with a symbol, would it make any
> differentce? There is no need, IMHO.
>
> Philippe was suggesting otherwise, in spite of Govt. of India's
> proposal.
>
>  >  Of course, the statement also implicitly assumes that unhindered
>  > use is what is desirable. It may be in some situations, but not in
>  > others.

Thank you Mahesh!
For explaining this complex thing.
Can you help understand following as well.

Suppose you design something using Hindi-alphabet "Ra" as the basis.
Then someone else calls your design basis is Latin-letter "R" and
re-designs what you designed and then publishes accordingly.

Where does this fall exactly?
(meaning plagiarism Copyright abuse, etc)

Thanks again,

Tulasi

Re: Indian new rupee sign

[Mahesh T. Pai]

Peter Constable said on Wed, Aug 04, 2010 at 01:09:32AM +,:
 > 
 > > a claim of IPR of any kind, and unhindered use are incompatible. 
 > 
 > Are you saying that in your capacity as an IPR lawyer? ;-)

No.  I am no longer a laweyr for past 5 years, I am in employment. 

 > If the owner of IP grants unhindered use, they are not incompatible.

Definitely, you are correct. 

Question is, is such an explicit permission necessary? 

If I call myself "Mahesh", do I need to grant an explicit license to
enable you to address me as  "Mahesh" in a public forum? 

If "Mahesh" was substituted with a symbol, would it make any
differentce? There is no need, IMHO. 

Philippe was suggesting otherwise, in spite of Govt. of India's
proposal.

 >  Of course, the statement also implicitly assumes that unhindered
 > use is what is desirable. It may be in some situations, but not in
 > others.


-- 
Mahesh T. Pai   ||  http://[paivakil|fizzard].blogspot.com
Man's most judicious trait, is a good sense of what not to believe.
--Euripides

RE: Indian new rupee sign

[Peter Constable]

From: unicode-bou...@unicode.org [mailto:unicode-bou...@unicode.org] On Behalf 
Of Mahesh T. Pai
Sent: Monday, August 02, 2010 6:54 PM

> a claim of IPR of any kind, and unhindered use are incompatible. 

Are you saying that in your capacity as an IPR lawyer? ;-)


If the owner of IP grants unhindered use, they are not incompatible.

Of course, the statement also implicitly assumes that unhindered use is what is 
desirable. It may be in some situations, but not in others.



Peter

Re: Indian new rupee sign

[Mahesh T. Pai]

Doug Ewell said on Mon, Aug 02, 2010 at 03:34:18PM -0700,:

 > My point was that those of us who are not IPR lawyers shouldn't pretend
 > to be IPR lawyers.  The UTC and WG2 and Indian government can figure out
 > for themselves what legal obstacles, if any, need to be overcome before
 > the rupee sign can be encoded.  That's all.

+1, and a claim of IPR of any kind, and unhindered use are incompatible. 


-- 
Mahesh T. Pai  

Re: Indian new rupee sign

[Doug Ewell]

Hey everybody,

I wasn't serious about the Ryerson logo.

My point was that those of us who are not IPR lawyers shouldn't pretend
to be IPR lawyers.  The UTC and WG2 and Indian government can figure out
for themselves what legal obstacles, if any, need to be overcome before
the rupee sign can be encoded.  That's all.

--
Doug Ewell | Thornton, Colorado, USA | http://www.ewellic.org
RFC 5645, 4645, UTN #14 | ietf-languages @ is dot gd slash 2kf0s ­

Re: Indian new rupee sign

[Shriramana Sharma]

On Fri, Jul 30, 2010 at 11:05 PM, Doug Ewell  wrote:
> The real question IMHO is whether the Ryerson company will be able to
> sue the Indian government for appropriating a too-similar logo.
>
> http://www.ryerson.com/

I don't think it's a too similar logo. There are probably many
companies out there which have such an
R-with-the-vertical-line-removed in their logo. The Indian Rupee Sign
is quite distinct.

Anyway, IANAL.

Shriramana Sharma.

Re: Indian new rupee sign

[Andrew West]

On 31 July 2010 08:54, William_J_G Overington  wrote:
>
> I wonder how long all of the balloting will take and how long will be idle 
> time between ballots and meetings.

The standardization process and balloting regulations that govern
ISO/IEC 10646 are set out in Part 1 of the ISO/IEC Directives


together with the ISO/IEC JTC1 Supplement



If you read these documents carefully you should be able to get a good
understanding of the rigorous processes involved in producing an
international standard.

I give a slightly more accessible summary of the processes involved in
producing the Unicode and 10646 standards at

-- read especially the section entitled "The Ballot Process" (note
that the balloting process followed by JTC1 is currently being
changed, which will result in a somewhat longer ballot period, and
consequently a longer "idle" period between meetings ... of course the
"idle" period is anything but idle for those involved in character
encoding proposals).

> Are there constitutional procedures such as "extraordinary meeting" and 
> "urgent question" that could get the encoding done faster?

No. I cannot speak for Unicode, but international standards are
produced according to rigorous and inflexible procedures which are
necessary to assure the high quality and reputation of standards
produced by ISO. Holding an extraordinary meeting (either physical or
virtual) would not expedite the matter as the due balloting process
still needs to be followed. In any case such a (hypothetical) meeting
could not be arranged before the next scheduled meeting for WG2 in
October.

>Could an extraordinary meeting for the one symbol be held over the internet 
>using a teleconferencing system?

I don't think so.

> So whether the symbol is encoded in 2010 or 2011 or later could make a 
> difference even some years later.

Well, it won't be encoded until late 2011 at the earliest, and people
will just have to live with that.

> Yet do make haste!

If you don't like Latin, how about "More haste, less speed!"

Andrew

Re: Indian new rupee sign

[William_J_G Overington]

On Friday 30 July 2010, John H. Jenkins  wrote:
 
> Obviously this is an important new symbol, and I'm sure
> that WG2 and the UTC will make every effort to encode it as
> expeditiously as possible.  As for exactly how long it
> will take, neither WG2 nor the UTC has even *met* since this
> hit the news.
 
I wonder how long all of the balloting will take and how long will be idle time 
between ballots and meetings. Are there constitutional procedures such as 
"extraordinary meeting" and "urgent question" that could get the encoding done 
faster? Could an extraordinary meeting for the one symbol be held over the 
internet using a teleconferencing system?
 
> While it's exciting to have the new
> symbol, and while one does want to strike while the iron is
> hot, ten years from now it won't have made much difference
> whether it was encoded in 2010 or 2011--unless the job got
> botched through over-haste.
 
Well, if people want to start making desktop published posters for shops, and 
producing catalogues and so on using the new symbol after it is introduced and 
before Unicode 6.1 is published, then it appears that the correct procedure 
would be to define a codepoint in the Private Use Area in the meantime so that 
fonts could be produced and documents saved to disc. That could result in an 
accumulation of legacy data with a dual regular Unicode and Private Use Area 
encoding going into the future. So whether the symbol is encoded in 2010 or 
2011 or later could make a difference even some years later.
  
> Festina lente.
 
I found that this is Latin for "make haste slowly".
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Festina_lente
 
> Festina lente.
 
Yet do make haste!
 
The Romans did not have the internet! Modern needs need modern action.
 
William Overington
 
31 July 2010
 

Re: Indian new rupee sign

[John H. Jenkins]

On Jul 30, 2010, at 5:01 AM, William_J_G Overington wrote:

> Is there any good reason why people cannot arrange that the new symbol is 
> fully encoded into Unicode and ISO 10646 by 31 December 2010, that is, before 
> the end of the present decade, ready to use in the next decade?
> 
> If there is progress over getting the encoding done, then maybe other people 
> will join in the effort and update fonts and whatever else needs updating by 
> the same date.
> 

Unicode is a complex standard whose structure involves code charts, data files, 
and various standard annexes and reports.  Any change to the standard involves 
changes to at least some of these, if not all of them.  This work is done by 
several individuals scattered around the world.  Time is needed to make sure 
the changes are properly coordinated and made with due care.  

WG2 is governed by ISO rules.  ISO is a large organization and involves 
national bodies from all over the globe.  The ISO voting process involves 
several rounds in order to make sure that any objections are properly discussed 
and responded to.  Even in the age of electronic communications, this takes 
time.

And many of the people involved in both UTC and WG2 have substantial 
responsibilities in addition to character encoding work.  (Some, indeed, do the 
character encoding work on their own time.)  It's not necessarily easy for them 
to find the time to look everything over carefully.

All of this is done at a deliberate pace because experience has taught that 
inasmuch as *any* change may have unintended consequences, making even a small 
change quickly may prove to create more problems than it solves.  

Note, for example, the "early adopter" who simply slapped support for the new 
rupee symbol by overlaying it on top of `.  For a lot of people, that's a cool 
solution because it means that everything works *right* *now*.  The problem is 
that it breaks a lot of other things that the person in question (and his 
supporters) obviously didn't even think of, and now they've got a pile of 
unintended consequences.  

Obviously this is an important new symbol, and I'm sure that WG2 and the UTC 
will make every effort to encode it as expeditiously as possible.  As for 
exactly how long it will take, neither WG2 nor the UTC has even *met* since 
this hit the news.  While it's exciting to have the new symbol, and while one 
does want to strike while the iron is hot, ten years from now it won't have 
made much difference whether it was encoded in 2010 or 2011--unless the job got 
botched through over-haste.

Festina lente.

=
井作恆
John H. Jenkins
jenk...@apple.com

RE: Indian new rupee sign

[Doug Ewell]

The real question IMHO is whether the Ryerson company will be able to
sue the Indian government for appropriating a too-similar logo.

http://www.ryerson.com/

I wonder how many people on this list who are expressing legal opinions
are actually licensed to practice law anywhere.

--
Doug Ewell | Thornton, Colorado, USA | http://www.ewellic.org
RFC 5645, 4645, UTN #14 | ietf-languages @ is dot gd slash 2kf0s ­

Re: Indian new rupee sign

[Rick McGowan]

On 7/30/2010 4:01 AM, William_J_G Overington wrote:

I find it strange that for a new currency symbol that is to come into use in 
six months that, in the twenty-first century, with all the modern communication 
methods available, that encoding in Unicode will take longer than six months.


William, perhaps you can read the RFC, particularly section 8.
http://www.rfc-archive.org/getrfc.php?rfc=3718

That describes the ordinary process of character encoding.

Rick

RE: Indian new rupee sign

[Philippe Verdy]

"Jonathan Rosenne" 
> Why does one require implementation laws to define a code point in
> Unicode for a new currency symbol? And what does it have to do with
> ISCII or keyboard layouts or usage or non-usage by people within India
> or abroad?

The national law (or an explicit licencing published by the goverment)
would NOT be about the code point assignement in Unicode (this
encoding space is not owned by the Indian government) or its encoding
in ISCII, but only about the usage of the adopted glyph :
- to open it for use by the general public,
- or to make it mandatory for some usages (transactions, official
fiscal forms, payment checks, price display in India),
- or to liberalize its use in the rest of the world (giving an
explicit licencing for some usages, but possibly explicitly stating
that it should not legally refer to any other currency without prior
authorization by the Indian government or its body that still owns the
copyright on it).

Yes, there's concern about the copyright of the symbol, which also
applies to derived works (including the representative glyph currently
proposed for encoding and for display in the Unicode charts and the
ISO 10646 charts, where the representative glyph explicitly allow
graphic style variations without breaking its visual identity).

If this does not concern, you, then, there's no more any valid reason
to block the encoding of the Windows logo, or of the Apple logo in the
UCS (given that they are present in common character sets). Because
for now this new glyph for the Indian Rupee is still an unlicenced
proprietary logo (even if it's owned by a government here), and the
same policy that blocks the Wavy Flying Windows logo or the Apple logo
should apply here too.

Anyway, I have no doubt that the intent of the Indian government is to
open this use by the general public (notably because it seems that it
does not seem to want it being used on its banknotes and coins, at
least not immediately). All we have then is for now some opinions by
govermental bodies and press releases, this is definitely not the same
thing as an open licencing for other uses.

Philippe

Re: Indian new rupee sign

[Michael Everson]

On 30 Jul 2010, at 12:02, Vinod Kumar wrote:

> With great difficulty we have managed to bury ISCII or at least make it 
> irrelevant. 
> Kindly do not resurrect it.

Amen to that.

Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com/

RE: Indian new rupee sign

[Jonathan Rosenne]

Why does one require implementation laws to define a code point in Unicode for 
a new currency symbol? And what does it have to do with ISCII or keyboard 
layouts or usage or non-usage by people within India or abroad?

 

One cannot make too many assumptions regarding usage. For example, Microsoft 
enforces the use if the Israeli currency symbol ₪ - by means of introducing it 
as a spelling correction for the common abbreviation ש"ח. In normal text many, 
including myself, do not want this but fortunately the solution was 
straightforward. 

 

Jony

 

> -Original Message-

> From: unicode-bou...@unicode.org [mailto:unicode-bou...@unicode.org] On

> Behalf Of verdy_p

> Sent: Friday, July 30, 2010 1:23 PM

> To: Michael Everson; shi zhao

> Cc: unicode@unicode.org

> Subject: Re: Indian new rupee sign

> 

> > De : "Michael Everson"

> > I like the video clip there. "Encoding in Indian standards will take

> about six months. Encoding in the Unicode and

> IEC standards will take about 18 months to two years."

> >

> > Sounds as though our Government of India colleagues gave them good

> advice.

> >

> > Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com/

> 

> Yes, and during that time, we'll get correct input from India, when it

> will have defined its implementation laws,

> and defined its national standard.

> 

> The only emergency will come when using the symbol will be mandatory

> for residents in India (but this won't happen

> before India clearly defines its standard, and probably not before a

> transition period), or for software makers

> selling products in India.

> 

> India will first need to realize that adapting the ISCII standard will

> be tricky (there is no more any common byte

> value available in its various 8-bit subtables, even if all of them

> have empty positions, so the basic one-to-one

> transliteration schemes assuming the same position for "equivalent"

> letters, digits or punctuation will not work,

> unless India abandons the positions reserved for C1 controls in the 8-

> bit version, abandonning also the 7-bit

> version of ISCII, to free the positions 0xA0 and 0xFF).

> 

> Only one position in ISCII allows interoperable extension across the

> various ISCII tables (the "EXT" code which was

> reserved for Vedic extensions, but Unicode and ISO/10646 encoded them

> directly in each script by overloading the

> unused positions of the basic ISCII 1991 layout). But seriously, ISCII

> is dying... it never reached an international

> standard like ISO 8859 (it could have been, as its layout was

> compatible with it), and most softwares are ignoring

> it (possibly not in India though, and its market size is large enough

> that ISCII could survive or could be revived

> for longer time than we think).

> 

> And there will be a need for a keyboard layout assignment (possibly

> replacing the old assignment for the "Rs" key if

> it exists, suggesting AltGr+R for the symbol, and modifying keyboard

> drivers so that they will return the new code

> point (if they are based on Unicode, otherwise return the ISCII bytes

> sequence).

> 

> This does not mean that we must not prepare the field, even if for now

> fonts can just encode the symbol in a PUA, or

> if various systems won't accept the proposed standard code point

> assignment. There's no need to allocate the symbol

> in the Devanagari block, because it will be shared by all the Indian

> scripts and many others, this will be a generic

> currency symbol for all scripts.

> 

> But the proposed U+20B9 location will be perfect, independantly of the

> allowed glyph variations for the

> representative glyph (India can vote at UTC and WG2 for the

> rpresentative glyph, its voice will be heard), it will

> have no impact on variations occuring on fonts used outside India

> 

> In fact it does not matter if it is not formally approved for the

> coming Unicode 6.0 (if it's too late for the WG2

> Agenda ?) as long as there's a commitment to not encode enything else

> at this location (now or in the future), until

> India terminates its own legislation and formally requests this

> character

> 

> India won't need to do that if the symbol will ONLY be used on official

> Indian banknotes or on LEGALLY APPROVED

> check forms emitted by Indian banks, or on government emissions like

> postal and fiscal stamps, or fiscal billings,

> and if there's no plan to force customers and sellers to display the

> symbol for pricing and advertizing.

> 

> And internationally, India cannot force the use of the symbol, even if

> it's en

Re: Indian new rupee sign

[Vinod Kumar]

On 7/30/10, verdy_p  wrote:
>
>
>
> India will first need to realize that adapting the ISCII standard will be
> tricky (there is no more any common byte
> value available in its various 8-bit subtables, even if all of them have
> empty positions, so the basic one-to-one
> transliteration schemes assuming the same position for "equivalent"
> letters, digits or punctuation will not work,
> unless India abandons the positions reserved for C1 controls in the 8-bit
> version, abandonning also the 7-bit
> version of ISCII, to free the positions 0xA0 and 0xFF).
>
> Only one position in ISCII allows interoperable extension across the
> various ISCII tables (the "EXT" code which was
> reserved for Vedic extensions, but Unicode and ISO/10646 encoded them
> directly in each script by overloading the
> unused positions of the basic ISCII 1991 layout). But seriously, ISCII is
> dying... it never reached an international
> standard like ISO 8859 (it could have been, as its layout was compatible
> with it), and most softwares are ignoring
> it (possibly not in India though, and its market size is large enough that
> ISCII could survive or could be revived
> for longer time than we think).
>
>
> With great difficulty we have managed to bury ISCII or at least make it
irrelevant. Please see
Preparation of Papers in a Two Column Model Paper Format

DIT, Government of India, “Notification for Unicode 5.1.0 and its future
versions as the standards for eGovernance Applications”, No.
2(32)/2009-EG-II, http://eGovStandards.gov.in ,
accessed in Apr, 2010


Kindly do not resurrect it.
Vinod Kumar

-- 
पृथिवी सस्यशालिनी
the earth be green

Re: Indian new rupee sign

[William_J_G Overington]

I find it strange that for a new currency symbol that is to come into use in 
six months that, in the twenty-first century, with all the modern communication 
methods available, that encoding in Unicode will take longer than six months.
 
Is there any good reason why people cannot arrange that the new symbol is fully 
encoded into Unicode and ISO 10646 by 31 December 2010, that is, before the end 
of the present decade, ready to use in the next decade?
 
If there is progress over getting the encoding done, then maybe other people 
will join in the effort and update fonts and whatever else needs updating by 
the same date.
  
William Overington
 
30 July 2010

Re: Indian new rupee sign

[verdy_p]

> De : "Michael Everson" 
> I like the video clip there. "Encoding in Indian standards will take about 
> six months. Encoding in the Unicode and 
IEC standards will take about 18 months to two years." 
> 
> Sounds as though our Government of India colleagues gave them good advice. 
> 
> Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com/

Yes, and during that time, we'll get correct input from India, when it will 
have defined its implementation laws, 
and defined its national standard.

The only emergency will come when using the symbol will be mandatory for 
residents in India (but this won't happen 
before India clearly defines its standard, and probably not before a transition 
period), or for software makers 
selling products in India.

India will first need to realize that adapting the ISCII standard will be 
tricky (there is no more any common byte 
value available in its various 8-bit subtables, even if all of them have empty 
positions, so the basic one-to-one 
transliteration schemes assuming the same position for "equivalent" letters, 
digits or punctuation will not work, 
unless India abandons the positions reserved for C1 controls in the 8-bit 
version, abandonning also the 7-bit 
version of ISCII, to free the positions 0xA0 and 0xFF).

Only one position in ISCII allows interoperable extension across the various 
ISCII tables (the "EXT" code which was 
reserved for Vedic extensions, but Unicode and ISO/10646 encoded them directly 
in each script by overloading the 
unused positions of the basic ISCII 1991 layout). But seriously, ISCII is 
dying... it never reached an international 
standard like ISO 8859 (it could have been, as its layout was compatible with 
it), and most softwares are ignoring 
it (possibly not in India though, and its market size is large enough that 
ISCII could survive or could be revived 
for longer time than we think).

And there will be a need for a keyboard layout assignment (possibly replacing 
the old assignment for the "Rs" key if 
it exists, suggesting AltGr+R for the symbol, and modifying keyboard drivers so 
that they will return the new code 
point (if they are based on Unicode, otherwise return the ISCII bytes sequence).

This does not mean that we must not prepare the field, even if for now fonts 
can just encode the symbol in a PUA, or 
if various systems won't accept the proposed standard code point assignment. 
There's no need to allocate the symbol 
in the Devanagari block, because it will be shared by all the Indian scripts 
and many others, this will be a generic 
currency symbol for all scripts.

But the proposed U+20B9 location will be perfect, independantly of the allowed 
glyph variations for the 
representative glyph (India can vote at UTC and WG2 for the rpresentative 
glyph, its voice will be heard), it will 
have no impact on variations occuring on fonts used outside India

In fact it does not matter if it is not formally approved for the coming 
Unicode 6.0 (if it's too late for the WG2 
Agenda ?) as long as there's a commitment to not encode enything else at this 
location (now or in the future), until 
India terminates its own legislation and formally requests this character

India won't need to do that if the symbol will ONLY be used on official Indian 
banknotes or on LEGALLY APPROVED 
check forms emitted by Indian banks, or on government emissions like postal and 
fiscal stamps, or fiscal billings, 
and if there's no plan to force customers and sellers to display the symbol for 
pricing and advertizing.

And internationally, India cannot force the use of the symbol, even if it's 
encoded, because other countries are 
already using the "INR" code in their interchange.

India can still choose to retain its exclusive copyright on the symbol and 
protect it so that it will have a 
mandatory glyph form and metrics according to governmental decisions 
(authorization required for using it, so fonts 
including it would be illegal as they would be illegally derived works based on 
copyrighted work, and there will be 
NO place for it in the UCS where it should then be rejected).

Re: Indian new rupee sign

[Michael Everson]

On 30 Jul 2010, at 08:54, shi zhao wrote:

> see 
> http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/biz/india-business/Cabinet-approves-new-rupee-symbol/articleshow/6171234.cms

I like the video clip there. "Encoding in Indian standards will take about six 
months. Encoding in the Unicode and IEC standards will take about 18 months to 
two years." 

Sounds as though our Government of India colleagues gave them good advice. 

Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com/

Indian new rupee sign

[shi zhao]

see
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/biz/india-business/Cabinet-approves-new-rupee-symbol/articleshow/6171234.cms


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_rupee_sign

Chinese wikipedia: http://zh.wikipedia.org/
My blog: http://shizhao.org
twitter: https://twitter.com/shizhao

[[zh:User:Shizhao]]